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#21




IQ and what it means in adulthood
Welches wrote:
[snip]antzig. At my college in Oxford, one of the night porters had (according to rumours) been a high flying student at one stage. She got a job after finals, but had problems with stress and decided that she'd be happier doing a nonacademic job, so she became a porter. She'd been there about 1015 years when I left, and (I think left a few years after with a job in academia). This wasn't ever confirmed to me, so it may have not been true. She was a lovely (and interesting) person to talk to anyway. I can definately see the appeal for the porter: a lowstress job, but around intelligent people.  Penny Gaines UK mum to three 
#22




IQ and what it means in adulthood
On Nov 10, 4:02 pm, Sarah Vaughan wrote:
Does anyone know of any good articles/studies on how well IQ scores in childhood correlate with success in adulthood, given all the inherent inaccuracies of the tests? I realise this is a pretty broad topic, but I know there are some wellinformed people here, and the subject has come up for discussion on someone's blog so I'm interested in finding out more. The book "The Bell Curve" (1994) by Herrnstein and Murray covers this, using data from National Longitudinal Survey of Labor Market Experience of Youth (in the U.S.). They define 5 cognitive classes corresponding to IQ percentiles: (1) very bright  top 5%  125+ IQ (2) bright  7595%  110125 IQ (3) normal  2575%  90110 IQ (4) dull  525%  7590 IQ (5) very dull  bottom 5%  below 75 IQ Here are the percentages of whites in various IQ groups meeting certain conditions: p132 living in poverty: 2 3 6 16 30 p146 failure to get a HS diploma: 0 0 6 35 55 p158 more than 1mo out of year not employed (males): 10 14 15 19 22 p161 disability preventing employment (males): 0 0.5 0.5 3.6 7.8 p163 unemployed more than 1mo out of year (males): 2 7 7 10 12 p174 divorced in first 5 years of marriage: 9 15 23 22 21 p180 gave birth to illegitimate baby (females): 2 4 8 17 32 p194 welfare dependence with 1 year of becoming mother (females): 1 4 12 21 55 For example, only 2% of very bright but 30% of very dull whites live in poverty. Cognitive test scores are better predictor of job performance than any other single measure, according to a metaanalysis (p81): The Validity of Some Different Predictors of Job Performance Predictor Validity Predicting Job Performance Ratings cognitive test score 0.53 biographical data 0.37 reference checks 0.26 education 0.22 interview 0.14 college grades 0.11 interest 0.10 age 0.01 
#23




IQ and what it means in adulthood
My attempt in the previous post to line up some of the numerical data
failed. Maybe the (non) formatting below will be more readable. Here are the percentages of whites in various IQ groups meeting certain conditions: p132 living in poverty: 2 3 6 16 30 p146 failure to get a HS diploma: 0 0 6 35 55 p158 more than 1mo out of year not employed (males): 10 14 15 19 22 p161 disability preventing employment (males): 0 0.5 0.5 3.6 7.8 p163 unemployed more than 1mo out of year (males): 2 7 7 10 12 p174 divorced in first 5 years of marriage: 9 15 23 22 21 p180 gave birth to illegitimate baby (females): 2 4 8 17 32 p194 welfare dependence with 1 year of becoming mother (females): 1 4 12 21 55 
#24




IQ and what it means in adulthood
Beliavsky wrote:
Here are the percentages of whites in various IQ groups meeting certain conditions: ....keeping very firmly in mind that correlation causation, (and even when causation exists, correlation doesn't explain which direction it's operating in) particularly when alternative explanations practically throw themselves at you. Best wishes, Ericka 
#25




IQ and what it means in adulthood
At my college in Oxford, one of the night porters had (according to rumours) been a high flying student at one stage. She got a job after finals, but had problems with stress and decided that she'd be happier doing a nonacademic job, so she became a porter. She'd been there about 1015 years when I left, and (I think left a few years after with a job in academia). This wasn't ever confirmed to me, so it may have not been true. She was a lovely (and interesting) person to talk to anyway. Having lived, studied and worked in Cambridge, you could never make any judgment about someones intelligence by what job they had, someone's secretary could easily have just as good a degree as they did. I myself worked part time on both the academic and admin side at the same time! Anne 
#26




IQ and what it means in adulthood
I got a maths degree from Oxford, then nannied for 2 years before having my own. I tend to keep the Oxford bit hidden as some people treat me differently when they know, which irritates me. Occasionally it comes up and people are often amazed that I have that qualification but have nannied for a job. I've often said we are some kind of pseudo twins! I did maths at Cambridge rather than Oxford and also have a tendency to not mention either. People who take me for who I am, a stay at home mother of two, with a few interesting stories to tell, will switch to viewing me as an underachiever when they discover my qualifications. It's been nice to have moved away from a setting where most people have known me for a while and even if they haven't, because of who within a group I know etc there are some pretty big clues. Here, I'm just Anne, an English mother of 2, only very occasionally do I get asked what I did and if I do, I usually pick a part time job I did once  an awful lot of people seem to have got the impression I was a teacher, I don't feel any need to clarify that! Anne 
#27




IQ and what it means in adulthood
In article , Anne Rogers says...
I got a maths degree from Oxford, then nannied for 2 years before having my own. I tend to keep the Oxford bit hidden as some people treat me differently when they know, which irritates me. Occasionally it comes up and people are often amazed that I have that qualification but have nannied for a job. I've often said we are some kind of pseudo twins! I did maths at Cambridge rather than Oxford There may be two of you but there is only *one* math! Banty gdr 
#28




IQ and what it means in adulthood
"Banty" wrote in message ... In article , Anne Rogers says... I got a maths degree from Oxford, then nannied for 2 years before having my own. I tend to keep the Oxford bit hidden as some people treat me differently when they know, which irritates me. Occasionally it comes up and people are often amazed that I have that qualification but have nannied for a job. I've often said we are some kind of pseudo twins! I did maths at Cambridge rather than Oxford There may be two of you but there is only *one* math! "Math" is what a Catholic with a lisp goes to ;P Debbie 
#29




IQ and what it means in adulthood
In article , Welches says...
"Banty" wrote in message ... In article , Anne Rogers says... I got a maths degree from Oxford, then nannied for 2 years before having my own. I tend to keep the Oxford bit hidden as some people treat me differently when they know, which irritates me. Occasionally it comes up and people are often amazed that I have that qualification but have nannied for a job. I've often said we are some kind of pseudo twins! I did maths at Cambridge rather than Oxford There may be two of you but there is only *one* math! "Math" is what a Catholic with a lisp goes to ;P Debbie There is only One True Math. Banty 
#30




IQ and what it means in adulthood
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:09:36 0800, Beliavsky
wrote: The book "The Bell Curve" (1994) by Herrnstein and Murray The book and it's statistical analyses are flawed. Hernstein and Murray start with a theory, then *lie* with statistics to support their theory. http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v4n20.html The correlation between the AFQT scores and parental SES in the NLSY data is .55. After reporting this correlation, H&M summarize: "Being brought up in a conspicuously highstatus or lowstatus family from birth probably has a significant effect on IQ, independent of the genetic endowment of the parent" (p. 589). Although the magnitude of these effects or their explanation are debatable, the IQ scores used in The Bell Curve to demonstrate the independent role of a cognitive endowment are caused to an important degree by parent's SES. This means, to rephrase H&M argument about ignoring years of education in their regressions, that when IQ is used as an independent variable, it is to some extent expressing the effects of SES in another form. Can this be solved by the machinery of multiple regression? It is too often believed that regression analysis provides the proper statistical control, "accounting for" is the usual term, which mathematically remedies the confounding of effects imposed by the realities of the investigated phenomenon or by the study design. The answer is an unequivocal "No." Neter, Wasserman, and Kutner (1990) explain: "Sometimes the standardized regression coefficients, b1 and b2, are interpreted as showing that X1 has a greater impact on the [outcome variable] than X2 because b1 is much larger than b2. However, ....one must be cautious about interpreting regression coefficients, whether standardized or not. The reason is that when the independent variables are correlated among themselves, as here, the regression coefficients are affected by the other independent variables in the model." (By a happy circumstance, the correlation alluded to in this section is .569, almost exactly the correlation between IQ and SES!) "Hence, it is ordinarily not wise to interpret the magnitudes of standardized regression coefficients as reflecting the comparative importance of the independent variables" (p.294). For a detailed discussion of these issues, the reader is invited to consult Chapter 13 of Mosteller & Tukey's Data Analysis and Regression (1977). They masterfully demonstrate the problems of interpreting regression coefficients, and sound very clear warnings concerning the comparison of regression coefficients even for fully deterministic systems under tight experimental control.  Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits 
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