Eigth Strike?....was.....Someone else Flunks The Question...was.... Four lives lost, though one is still living.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:46:13 -0700, Doan wrote:

....as though he was a child in a kiddie baseball game, who, having
struck out long ago, insists he hasn't and, in a bad temper, insists
the pitcher keep throwing until he finally hits one...but he never
does get a hit.....night falls, everyone has left, and he keeps on
swinging, crying and miserable...

Sorry, droaner, about your many swings and misses, but do keep trying.
Who knows, maybe one day you will actually get The Question, and admit
there IS no practical way for parents to KNOW were the line is.

On 14 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:51:16 -0700, Doan wrote:

....very very carefully to not answer the questions asked, or
challenge the claims made.............

On 12 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:55:28 -0700, Doan wrote:

On 10 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote in message ...
On 9 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:00:49 -0700, Doan
wrote:


The boy got a black eye at one time. You call that
"discipline",
Kane0?

No, Doan, I don't call it "discipline." The father would,
though, as
so many do that come here.

So you now speaking for the father???

No. I am speaking about the excuse that so many abusers of
children
use...."I was just teaching him to mind, be respectful,
responsible,
etc."

But many parents are not abusers.

Non sequiter. I was not speaking about non-abusing parents. I
was
speaking of abusers. If you wish to discuss the non-abusers you
claim,
then do so.

This is alt.parenting.spanking, not alt.parenting.abuse!

It is also unmoderated.

Yes it is! ;-)

But more importantly, you cannot identify, nor can anyone else, the
line between "spanking" and "abuse" hence any discussion of
spanking,
which of course includes a high probability escalation to
abuse....as
is known by the incidences of just such abuse resulting in the
removal
of children by the state, is valid and on topic.

You are showing your stupidity again.

We've been over this before, and the obvious answer has been given to
you time and again, yet you keep coming back pretending it hasn't
been, babbling the same thing over and over.....so I have to ask you,
is that not STUPID, stupid?

IF THERE IS NO LINE

Please point out where I said there was no line in the paragraph you
refer to above. There obviously IS such a line. The problem is,
Droany, and I'm giving you yet ANOTHER chance to grow up, IT IS NOT A
CONSTANT.

Hearing any bells going off yet? Some gears turning in your otherwise
empty head? I've practically held your hand to GIVE away the answer to
you but you are so lost in your denial you can't see it even with
help.

then there is
no line to CROSS!

Sure there is. Child injuries are proof.

Back to english language lessons I see. I didn't say there was no
line. I said "But more importantly, you cannot identify" "the line
between."

That does not say it doesn't exist, now does it, dumbkins?

There is no way of DETECTING The Line. It's there alrightie, as one
can tell by the abused children removed from their parents; parents
that claimed they were just "disciplining" their children, and the
child is physically and psychologically, as well as developmentally
(which IS psychologically) injured.

I will simply ask you The Question again, and how they are to
find
and
KNOW the line between discipline and abuse.

Ask your local DA or CPS, stupid!

I asked YOU. I'm interested in whether or not YOU know....if the DA
or
CPS persons were arguing in favor of spanking I'd be asking THEM.
Or
even if they were saying, "make up your own mind."

And I have already answered but,

Naw. Never happened tomadachi.

Nope. You haven't really. Because the answer is not only that it
cannot be accurately detected.....given all the possible variables in
children, at a given time, under various conditions of the punishing
parent (who are remarkably inconsistent though they claim otherwise),
and other circumstances NOT under control of the parent, OR the child.

apparently, you are TOO STUPID to
understand it.

On the contrary *I* understand it extraordinarily well. In it's many
permutations, including those put forward by the judicial in Canada,
and many authorities in this country as well..........NONE CAN SHOW
WERE THE LINE IS, only indicate what will happen if it is crossed and
certain conditions of the child ensue.

You didn't answer the question. As usual.

I did, many times.

R R R R....you THINK you did apparently. I find that a rather stupid
position, in the face of reality. YOU point to the line, I'll buy it.
YOU describe it in exact terms, as I ASKED FOR IN THE QUESTION, and
I'll buy that.

No Droaner, what you did was answer many 'questions' that you created
that were NOT the question I asked. You NEVER actually answered the
question....how is the parent to know where the line is..........no
one ELSE KNOWS, but you seem to think parents do that come here, as
you tell them to make up their own minds, and I presume YOU know or
you wouldn't work at trying to tell me.

You are lying.

You have an interesting way of calling a disagreement a lie, and those
that disagree with your particular claim, liars on that point. I
suspect you are lying to yourself....long hard and deep.

What is my lie, Droaner?

I said it is determined using the
"reasonable person" standard.

That's not an answer to the question I asked. Hence YOU are the liar,
droananator. And you alone.

I asked you to specifically point out the line itself. Not what
someone ELSE would say or do or what "standard" they might use. The
"standard" you call upon is NOT an answer to The Question.

Now then. I'm a fair and reasonable guy, a good sport as it were, and
generous to a fault with poor disabled spanked children, so I'll play.

Exactly what WOULD a reasonable person determine as to the location
and identification of the line?

And, please, don't embarrass yourself further with circular argument.
Saying it's what a reasonable person would determine over and over
again without pointing out the actual measurement, or how precisely
that measurement is taken, itself is a dead giveaway you are lying to
yourself again.

As for the DA and CPS, I've asked. They cannot answer it. They can
tell me when abuse has occurred, after the fact, but they cannot
define that precise point where discipline becomes abuse, stupid!

Precision is not the issue.

One side of the line, no injure, the other side, injury. You seem to
be wallowing now in bogus claims. Precision is exactly what I asked
for, not some guess....THAT is what gets parents in trouble and
children injured...and I expressly said THAT was a criteria...NOT to
injure the child or get the parent investigated by CPS.

Sorry. Precision is exactly the issue. The child's injures would be
less serious were the line known precisely and avoided by the
punishing parent, and the parent would be less likely to end up a CPS
client and have children removed temporarily.......or, even a serious
enough injury ensued, forever.

The issue is there such a line.

Oh how you'd love to reframe my question into something vapid and easy
to handle. But injuries to a child do not allow for minimizing this
issue down to nothing but little boy blather. Sorry.

If you are willing for others to risk that, just say so. We will
understand. And go ahead and tell them to "make up their own mind" as
many times as you like, but I will be here to remind you and them that
you don't know where the line is. Hence they must guess, and con
themselves into believing they DO know.

All willing to risk the child and the child's future. Have it, but
don't lie about it.

And if
they can determine when abuse has occured, they are saying that there
is a LINE.

Okay, following in my generous nature, were exactly, at what point,
did the abuse occur, and how can the parent use that information to
continue using CP and NOT cross that line again? You might want to
recall that some injury does not show for some time...in fact some is
not caught for years and the child's bonebreak goes untreated and
poorly healed. And least we forget, the psyche can also be injured,
broken, if you will, and never heal....for life.

And we should remember that parents who use CP often have more than
one means of applying CP. It's all very complicated isn't it now?

AND as I said long ago and pointed out IS NOW NOT the question you are
trying to answer by pointing BACK to the event of the line having been
crossed. The parent has ALREADY CROSSED THE LINE, INJURY HAS OCCURED,
AND THEY MAY WELL BE IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW, as it is illegal to
injure a child.

My question expressly said that the line needs to be identified BEFORE
injury occurs. At least if parents who claim they would not injure
their child and KNOW were to stop are to be believed.

I believe them. I do not think they consciously want to injure their
child. But I do contend there is something seriously amiss that they
cannot see as risk. I know where it comes from, and will address it
later using you as an example.

They know but obviously YOU don't, and no legislator knows, or
legislative body, not even the Canadian one that ruled on this
spanking issue and made the restrictions SO very constrained in
action, age, point of contact, and instruments NOT allowed, no one
would ever, if they follow the law, come within a MILE of the actual
line that cannot be measured as yet.

Isn't that nice? Eh? Eh? Wake up boy. I asked you a question.....R R
R R R

I've read the law, and the CPS policy in a number of states. NONE
point out anything but the aftermath, and NON CP PARENTING METHODS
TO
BE USED INSTEAD OF CP.

Did they tell you where the line is between talking to your child and
verbal abuse?

Of course not. They don't know that any more than they know the CP
line answer. But psychological injury to a child, sans CP, can be
measured after the line has been crossed and damage done.

But then, I don't recall that was the question we were considering.
Now was it?

Not related to the one I asked you.

Was that not how you attempted, by asking that particular question
before, to escape answering The Question I asked, in our earlier
exchanges?

Speak up boy, I can't hear you.

So, they can't ID the line, and neither can you.

IF they can't id the line, how do they know when it CROSSED, stupid?

Why Only by the injuries that ensue, of course. Which of course also
is covered by my Question........how does one know the location of THE
LINE so they will NOT cross it and injure the child?

You seem confused, child. Here, suck your sugartit and rocky
rocky....R R R R R

Doan

You get dumber every time you try to weasel out of this one. NO one
has ever been able to answer The Question, and no one will, until we
are so advanced in science that we can utterly control a body's
environment and monitor ALL sensation and reaction to stimuli, ON THE
FLY, not in a lab. Unless of course the spankers want to set up a
spanking lab....

And by the time we are so wired that we can do those things, it will
be so obviously apparent that risking injury to a child IS THE
STUPIDEST, most species threatening thing one can do, or a society can
allow, that it wouldn't even be considered an option for
discipline...in fact punishment will be gone, as it couuld be RIGHT
NOW, if folks would wake up from their own childhood induced
dreamstate.

YOU are pushing for a law, stupid, while I'm trying to wake people up
before it comes to pass, so they will enthusiastically work toward
non-punitive parenting methods.

You are an enemy of society by my reckoning. But you knew that
already.

Even in the spanked child there is, buried under all that cold pain
and fear, and hot barely in-check rage, a little spot where the truth
is.

That is the place you, a spanked child, never want to go, because it
would make you face the one thing no human can do easily......the
chance their parents didn't love them.....and hitting is A SUREFIRE
way to tell a child that you do not, even if you lie and say you do.

No child is ever really fooled by that or believes it, but to survive
they will construct the most elaborate pseudo-realities to believe in
and ways to hide the truth, and themselves from the truth.

You do. A lot. Sad, idnit?

I made an error in the subject. I dashed it off too quickly and I
apologize. It should have read "Someone else thinks they know the
answer to The Question, and flunks. Four lives lost, though one is
still living."

This is the typical outcome of such sad, psychologically driven
ignorance as yours. The world is awash in examples, from
interpersonal events to world affairs.

Kane

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:46:13 -0700, Doan wrote:

....as though he was a child in a kiddie baseball game, who, having
struck out long ago, insists he hasn't and, in a bad temper, insists
the pitcher keep throwing until he finally hits one...but he never
does get a hit.....night falls, everyone has left, and he keeps on
swinging, crying and miserable...

Sorry, droaner, about your many swings and misses, but do keep trying.
Who knows, maybe one day you will actually get The Question, and admit
there IS no practical way for parents to KNOW were the line is.

On 14 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:51:16 -0700, Doan wrote:

....very very carefully to not answer the questions asked, or
challenge the claims made.............

On 12 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:55:28 -0700, Doan wrote:

On 10 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote in message ...
On 9 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:00:49 -0700, Doan
wrote:


The boy got a black eye at one time. You call that
"discipline",
Kane0?

No, Doan, I don't call it "discipline." The father would,
though, as
so many do that come here.

So you now speaking for the father???

No. I am speaking about the excuse that so many abusers of
children
use...."I was just teaching him to mind, be respectful,
responsible,
etc."

But many parents are not abusers.

Non sequiter. I was not speaking about non-abusing parents. I
was
speaking of abusers. If you wish to discuss the non-abusers you
claim,
then do so.

This is alt.parenting.spanking, not alt.parenting.abuse!

It is also unmoderated.

Yes it is! ;-)

But more importantly, you cannot identify, nor can anyone else, the
line between "spanking" and "abuse" hence any discussion of
spanking,
which of course includes a high probability escalation to
abuse....as
is known by the incidences of just such abuse resulting in the
removal
of children by the state, is valid and on topic.

You are showing your stupidity again.

We've been over this before, and the obvious answer has been given to
you time and again, yet you keep coming back pretending it hasn't
been, babbling the same thing over and over.....so I have to ask you,
is that not STUPID, stupid?

IF THERE IS NO LINE

Please point out where I said there was no line in the paragraph you
refer to above. There obviously IS such a line. The problem is,
Droany, and I'm giving you yet ANOTHER chance to grow up, IT IS NOT A
CONSTANT.

Hearing any bells going off yet? Some gears turning in your otherwise
empty head? I've practically held your hand to GIVE away the answer to
you but you are so lost in your denial you can't see it even with
help.

then there is
no line to CROSS!

Sure there is. Child injuries are proof.

Back to english language lessons I see. I didn't say there was no
line. I said "But more importantly, you cannot identify" "the line
between."

That does not say it doesn't exist, now does it, dumbkins?

There is no way of DETECTING The Line. It's there alrightie, as one
can tell by the abused children removed from their parents; parents
that claimed they were just "disciplining" their children, and the
child is physically and psychologically, as well as developmentally
(which IS psychologically) injured.

I will simply ask you The Question again, and how they are to
find
and
KNOW the line between discipline and abuse.

Ask your local DA or CPS, stupid!

I asked YOU. I'm interested in whether or not YOU know....if the DA
or
CPS persons were arguing in favor of spanking I'd be asking THEM.
Or
even if they were saying, "make up your own mind."

And I have already answered but,

Naw. Never happened tomadachi.

Nope. You haven't really. Because the answer is not only that it
cannot be accurately detected.....given all the possible variables in
children, at a given time, under various conditions of the punishing
parent (who are remarkably inconsistent though they claim otherwise),
and other circumstances NOT under control of the parent, OR the child.

apparently, you are TOO STUPID to
understand it.

On the contrary *I* understand it extraordinarily well. In it's many
permutations, including those put forward by the judicial in Canada,
and many authorities in this country as well..........NONE CAN SHOW
WERE THE LINE IS, only indicate what will happen if it is crossed and
certain conditions of the child ensue.

You didn't answer the question. As usual.

I did, many times.

R R R R....you THINK you did apparently. I find that a rather stupid
position, in the face of reality. YOU point to the line, I'll buy it.
YOU describe it in exact terms, as I ASKED FOR IN THE QUESTION, and
I'll buy that.

No Droaner, what you did was answer many 'questions' that you created
that were NOT the question I asked. You NEVER actually answered the
question....how is the parent to know where the line is..........no
one ELSE KNOWS, but you seem to think parents do that come here, as
you tell them to make up their own minds, and I presume YOU know or
you wouldn't work at trying to tell me.

You are lying.

You have an interesting way of calling a disagreement a lie, and those
that disagree with your particular claim, liars on that point. I
suspect you are lying to yourself....long hard and deep.

What is my lie, Droaner?

I said it is determined using the
"reasonable person" standard.

That's not an answer to the question I asked. Hence YOU are the liar,
droananator. And you alone.

I asked you to specifically point out the line itself. Not what
someone ELSE would say or do or what "standard" they might use. The
"standard" you call upon is NOT an answer to The Question.

Now then. I'm a fair and reasonable guy, a good sport as it were, and
generous to a fault with poor disabled spanked children, so I'll play.

Exactly what WOULD a reasonable person determine as to the location
and identification of the line?

And, please, don't embarrass yourself further with circular argument.
Saying it's what a reasonable person would determine over and over
again without pointing out the actual measurement, or how precisely
that measurement is taken, itself is a dead giveaway you are lying to
yourself again.

As for the DA and CPS, I've asked. They cannot answer it. They can
tell me when abuse has occurred, after the fact, but they cannot
define that precise point where discipline becomes abuse, stupid!

Precision is not the issue.

One side of the line, no injure, the other side, injury. You seem to
be wallowing now in bogus claims. Precision is exactly what I asked
for, not some guess....THAT is what gets parents in trouble and
children injured...and I expressly said THAT was a criteria...NOT to
injure the child or get the parent investigated by CPS.

Sorry. Precision is exactly the issue. The child's injures would be
less serious were the line known precisely and avoided by the
punishing parent, and the parent would be less likely to end up a CPS
client and have children removed temporarily.......or, even a serious
enough injury ensued, forever.

The issue is there such a line.

Oh how you'd love to reframe my question into something vapid and easy
to handle. But injuries to a child do not allow for minimizing this
issue down to nothing but little boy blather. Sorry.

If you are willing for others to risk that, just say so. We will
understand. And go ahead and tell them to "make up their own mind" as
many times as you like, but I will be here to remind you and them that
you don't know where the line is. Hence they must guess, and con
themselves into believing they DO know.

All willing to risk the child and the child's future. Have it, but
don't lie about it.

And if
they can determine when abuse has occured, they are saying that there
is a LINE.

Okay, following in my generous nature, were exactly, at what point,
did the abuse occur, and how can the parent use that information to
continue using CP and NOT cross that line again? You might want to
recall that some injury does not show for some time...in fact some is
not caught for years and the child's bonebreak goes untreated and
poorly healed. And least we forget, the psyche can also be injured,
broken, if you will, and never heal....for life.

And we should remember that parents who use CP often have more than
one means of applying CP. It's all very complicated isn't it now?

AND as I said long ago and pointed out IS NOW NOT the question you are
trying to answer by pointing BACK to the event of the line having been
crossed. The parent has ALREADY CROSSED THE LINE, INJURY HAS OCCURED,
AND THEY MAY WELL BE IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW, as it is illegal to
injure a child.

My question expressly said that the line needs to be identified BEFORE
injury occurs. At least if parents who claim they would not injure
their child and KNOW were to stop are to be believed.

I believe them. I do not think they consciously want to injure their
child. But I do contend there is something seriously amiss that they
cannot see as risk. I know where it comes from, and will address it
later using you as an example.

They know but obviously YOU don't, and no legislator knows, or
legislative body, not even the Canadian one that ruled on this
spanking issue and made the restrictions SO very constrained in
action, age, point of contact, and instruments NOT allowed, no one
would ever, if they follow the law, come within a MILE of the actual
line that cannot be measured as yet.

Isn't that nice? Eh? Eh? Wake up boy. I asked you a question.....R R
R R R

I've read the law, and the CPS policy in a number of states. NONE
point out anything but the aftermath, and NON CP PARENTING METHODS
TO
BE USED INSTEAD OF CP.

Did they tell you where the line is between talking to your child and
verbal abuse?

Of course not. They don't know that any more than they know the CP
line answer. But psychological injury to a child, sans CP, can be
measured after the line has been crossed and damage done.

But then, I don't recall that was the question we were considering.
Now was it?

Not related to the one I asked you.

Was that not how you attempted, by asking that particular question
before, to escape answering The Question I asked, in our earlier
exchanges?

Speak up boy, I can't hear you.

So, they can't ID the line, and neither can you.

IF they can't id the line, how do they know when it CROSSED, stupid?

Why Only by the injuries that ensue, of course. Which of course also
is covered by my Question........how does one know the location of THE
LINE so they will NOT cross it and injure the child?

You seem confused, child. Here, suck your sugartit and rocky
rocky....R R R R R

Doan

You get dumber every time you try to weasel out of this one. NO one
has ever been able to answer The Question, and no one will, until we
are so advanced in science that we can utterly control a body's
environment and monitor ALL sensation and reaction to stimuli, ON THE
FLY, not in a lab. Unless of course the spankers want to set up a
spanking lab....

And by the time we are so wired that we can do those things, it will
be so obviously apparent that risking injury to a child IS THE
STUPIDEST, most species threatening thing one can do, or a society can
allow, that it wouldn't even be considered an option for
discipline...in fact punishment will be gone, as it couuld be RIGHT
NOW, if folks would wake up from their own childhood induced
dreamstate.

YOU are pushing for a law, stupid, while I'm trying to wake people up
before it comes to pass, so they will enthusiastically work toward
non-punitive parenting methods.

You are an enemy of society by my reckoning. But you knew that
already.

Even in the spanked child there is, buried under all that cold pain
and fear, and hot barely in-check rage, a little spot where the truth
is.

That is the place you, a spanked child, never want to go, because it
would make you face the one thing no human can do easily......the
chance their parents didn't love them.....and hitting is A SUREFIRE
way to tell a child that you do not, even if you lie and say you do.

No child is ever really fooled by that or believes it, but to survive
they will construct the most elaborate pseudo-realities to believe in
and ways to hide the truth, and themselves from the truth.

You do. A lot. Sad, idnit?

I made an error in the subject. I dashed it off too quickly and I
apologize. It should have read "Someone else thinks they know the
answer to The Question, and flunks. Four lives lost, though one is
still living."

This is the typical outcome of such sad, psychologically driven
ignorance as yours. The world is awash in examples, from
interpersonal events to world affairs.

Kane

Typical response from a "never-spanked" - stubbornly stuck to his
stupidity! :-)

Doan

On 23 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:46:13 -0700, Doan wrote:

...as though he was a child in a kiddie baseball game, who, having
struck out long ago, insists he hasn't and, in a bad temper, insists
the pitcher keep throwing until he finally hits one...but he never
does get a hit.....night falls, everyone has left, and he keeps on
swinging, crying and miserable...

Sorry, droaner, about your many swings and misses, but do keep trying.
Who knows, maybe one day you will actually get The Question, and admit
there IS no practical way for parents to KNOW were the line is.

On 14 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:51:16 -0700, Doan wrote:

....very very carefully to not answer the questions asked, or
challenge the claims made.............

On 12 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:55:28 -0700, Doan wrote:

On 10 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote in message ...
On 9 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:00:49 -0700, Doan
wrote:


The boy got a black eye at one time. You call that
"discipline",
Kane0?

No, Doan, I don't call it "discipline." The father would,
though, as
so many do that come here.

So you now speaking for the father???

No. I am speaking about the excuse that so many abusers of
children
use...."I was just teaching him to mind, be respectful,
responsible,
etc."

But many parents are not abusers.

Non sequiter. I was not speaking about non-abusing parents. I
was
speaking of abusers. If you wish to discuss the non-abusers you
claim,
then do so.

This is alt.parenting.spanking, not alt.parenting.abuse!

It is also unmoderated.

Yes it is! ;-)

But more importantly, you cannot identify, nor can anyone else, the
line between "spanking" and "abuse" hence any discussion of
spanking,
which of course includes a high probability escalation to
abuse....as
is known by the incidences of just such abuse resulting in the
removal
of children by the state, is valid and on topic.

You are showing your stupidity again.

We've been over this before, and the obvious answer has been given to
you time and again, yet you keep coming back pretending it hasn't
been, babbling the same thing over and over.....so I have to ask you,
is that not STUPID, stupid?

IF THERE IS NO LINE

Please point out where I said there was no line in the paragraph you
refer to above. There obviously IS such a line. The problem is,
Droany, and I'm giving you yet ANOTHER chance to grow up, IT IS NOT A
CONSTANT.

Hearing any bells going off yet? Some gears turning in your otherwise
empty head? I've practically held your hand to GIVE away the answer to
you but you are so lost in your denial you can't see it even with
help.

then there is
no line to CROSS!

Sure there is. Child injuries are proof.

Back to english language lessons I see. I didn't say there was no
line. I said "But more importantly, you cannot identify" "the line
between."

That does not say it doesn't exist, now does it, dumbkins?

There is no way of DETECTING The Line. It's there alrightie, as one
can tell by the abused children removed from their parents; parents
that claimed they were just "disciplining" their children, and the
child is physically and psychologically, as well as developmentally
(which IS psychologically) injured.

I will simply ask you The Question again, and how they are to
find
and
KNOW the line between discipline and abuse.

Ask your local DA or CPS, stupid!

I asked YOU. I'm interested in whether or not YOU know....if the DA
or
CPS persons were arguing in favor of spanking I'd be asking THEM.
Or
even if they were saying, "make up your own mind."

And I have already answered but,

Naw. Never happened tomadachi.

Nope. You haven't really. Because the answer is not only that it
cannot be accurately detected.....given all the possible variables in
children, at a given time, under various conditions of the punishing
parent (who are remarkably inconsistent though they claim otherwise),
and other circumstances NOT under control of the parent, OR the child.

apparently, you are TOO STUPID to
understand it.

On the contrary *I* understand it extraordinarily well. In it's many
permutations, including those put forward by the judicial in Canada,
and many authorities in this country as well..........NONE CAN SHOW
WERE THE LINE IS, only indicate what will happen if it is crossed and
certain conditions of the child ensue.

You didn't answer the question. As usual.

I did, many times.

R R R R....you THINK you did apparently. I find that a rather stupid
position, in the face of reality. YOU point to the line, I'll buy it.
YOU describe it in exact terms, as I ASKED FOR IN THE QUESTION, and
I'll buy that.

No Droaner, what you did was answer many 'questions' that you created
that were NOT the question I asked. You NEVER actually answered the
question....how is the parent to know where the line is..........no
one ELSE KNOWS, but you seem to think parents do that come here, as
you tell them to make up their own minds, and I presume YOU know or
you wouldn't work at trying to tell me.

You are lying.

You have an interesting way of calling a disagreement a lie, and those
that disagree with your particular claim, liars on that point. I
suspect you are lying to yourself....long hard and deep.

What is my lie, Droaner?

I said it is determined using the
"reasonable person" standard.

That's not an answer to the question I asked. Hence YOU are the liar,
droananator. And you alone.

I asked you to specifically point out the line itself. Not what
someone ELSE would say or do or what "standard" they might use. The
"standard" you call upon is NOT an answer to The Question.

Now then. I'm a fair and reasonable guy, a good sport as it were, and
generous to a fault with poor disabled spanked children, so I'll play.

Exactly what WOULD a reasonable person determine as to the location
and identification of the line?

And, please, don't embarrass yourself further with circular argument.
Saying it's what a reasonable person would determine over and over
again without pointing out the actual measurement, or how precisely
that measurement is taken, itself is a dead giveaway you are lying to
yourself again.

As for the DA and CPS, I've asked. They cannot answer it. They can
tell me when abuse has occurred, after the fact, but they cannot
define that precise point where discipline becomes abuse, stupid!

Precision is not the issue.

One side of the line, no injure, the other side, injury. You seem to
be wallowing now in bogus claims. Precision is exactly what I asked
for, not some guess....THAT is what gets parents in trouble and
children injured...and I expressly said THAT was a criteria...NOT to
injure the child or get the parent investigated by CPS.

Sorry. Precision is exactly the issue. The child's injures would be
less serious were the line known precisely and avoided by the
punishing parent, and the parent would be less likely to end up a CPS
client and have children removed temporarily.......or, even a serious
enough injury ensued, forever.

The issue is there such a line.

Oh how you'd love to reframe my question into something vapid and easy
to handle. But injuries to a child do not allow for minimizing this
issue down to nothing but little boy blather. Sorry.

If you are willing for others to risk that, just say so. We will
understand. And go ahead and tell them to "make up their own mind" as
many times as you like, but I will be here to remind you and them that
you don't know where the line is. Hence they must guess, and con
themselves into believing they DO know.

All willing to risk the child and the child's future. Have it, but
don't lie about it.

And if
they can determine when abuse has occured, they are saying that there
is a LINE.

Okay, following in my generous nature, were exactly, at what point,
did the abuse occur, and how can the parent use that information to
continue using CP and NOT cross that line again? You might want to
recall that some injury does not show for some time...in fact some is
not caught for years and the child's bonebreak goes untreated and
poorly healed. And least we forget, the psyche can also be injured,
broken, if you will, and never heal....for life.

And we should remember that parents who use CP often have more than
one means of applying CP. It's all very complicated isn't it now?

AND as I said long ago and pointed out IS NOW NOT the question you are
trying to answer by pointing BACK to the event of the line having been
crossed. The parent has ALREADY CROSSED THE LINE, INJURY HAS OCCURED,
AND THEY MAY WELL BE IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW, as it is illegal to
injure a child.

My question expressly said that the line needs to be identified BEFORE
injury occurs. At least if parents who claim they would not injure
their child and KNOW were to stop are to be believed.

I believe them. I do not think they consciously want to injure their
child. But I do contend there is something seriously amiss that they
cannot see as risk. I know where it comes from, and will address it
later using you as an example.

They know but obviously YOU don't, and no legislator knows, or
legislative body, not even the Canadian one that ruled on this
spanking issue and made the restrictions SO very constrained in
action, age, point of contact, and instruments NOT allowed, no one
would ever, if they follow the law, come within a MILE of the actual
line that cannot be measured as yet.

Isn't that nice? Eh? Eh? Wake up boy. I asked you a question.....R R
R R R

I've read the law, and the CPS policy in a number of states. NONE
point out anything but the aftermath, and NON CP PARENTING METHODS
TO
BE USED INSTEAD OF CP.

Did they tell you where the line is between talking to your child and
verbal abuse?

Of course not. They don't know that any more than they know the CP
line answer. But psychological injury to a child, sans CP, can be
measured after the line has been crossed and damage done.

But then, I don't recall that was the question we were considering.
Now was it?

Not related to the one I asked you.

Was that not how you attempted, by asking that particular question
before, to escape answering The Question I asked, in our earlier
exchanges?

Speak up boy, I can't hear you.

So, they can't ID the line, and neither can you.

IF they can't id the line, how do they know when it CROSSED, stupid?

Why Only by the injuries that ensue, of course. Which of course also
is covered by my Question........how does one know the location of THE
LINE so they will NOT cross it and injure the child?

You seem confused, child. Here, suck your sugartit and rocky
rocky....R R R R R

Doan

You get dumber every time you try to weasel out of this one. NO one
has ever been able to answer The Question, and no one will, until we
are so advanced in science that we can utterly control a body's
environment and monitor ALL sensation and reaction to stimuli, ON THE
FLY, not in a lab. Unless of course the spankers want to set up a
spanking lab....

And by the time we are so wired that we can do those things, it will
be so obviously apparent that risking injury to a child IS THE
STUPIDEST, most species threatening thing one can do, or a society can
allow, that it wouldn't even be considered an option for
discipline...in fact punishment will be gone, as it couuld be RIGHT
NOW, if folks would wake up from their own childhood induced
dreamstate.

YOU are pushing for a law, stupid, while I'm trying to wake people up
before it comes to pass, so they will enthusiastically work toward
non-punitive parenting methods.

You are an enemy of society by my reckoning. But you knew that
already.

Even in the spanked child there is, buried under all that cold pain
and fear, and hot barely in-check rage, a little spot where the truth
is.

That is the place you, a spanked child, never want to go, because it
would make you face the one thing no human can do easily......the
chance their parents didn't love them.....and hitting is A SUREFIRE
way to tell a child that you do not, even if you lie and say you do.

No child is ever really fooled by that or believes it, but to survive
they will construct the most elaborate pseudo-realities to believe in
and ways to hide the truth, and themselves from the truth.

You do. A lot. Sad, idnit?

I made an error in the subject. I dashed it off too quickly and I
apologize. It should have read "Someone else thinks they know the
answer to The Question, and flunks. Four lives lost, though one is
still living."

This is the typical outcome of such sad, psychologically driven
ignorance as yours. The world is awash in examples, from
interpersonal events to world affairs.

Kane

Typical response from a "never-spanked" boy - stubbornly stuck to his
stupidity :-)

On 23 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:46:13 -0700, Doan wrote:

...as though he was a child in a kiddie baseball game, who, having
struck out long ago, insists he hasn't and, in a bad temper, insists
the pitcher keep throwing until he finally hits one...but he never
does get a hit.....night falls, everyone has left, and he keeps on
swinging, crying and miserable...

Sorry, droaner, about your many swings and misses, but do keep trying.
Who knows, maybe one day you will actually get The Question, and admit
there IS no practical way for parents to KNOW were the line is.

On 14 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:51:16 -0700, Doan wrote:

....very very carefully to not answer the questions asked, or
challenge the claims made.............

On 12 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:55:28 -0700, Doan wrote:

On 10 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote in message ...
On 9 Jul 2004, Kane wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:00:49 -0700, Doan
wrote:


The boy got a black eye at one time. You call that
"discipline",
Kane0?

No, Doan, I don't call it "discipline." The father would,
though, as
so many do that come here.

So you now speaking for the father???

No. I am speaking about the excuse that so many abusers of
children
use...."I was just teaching him to mind, be respectful,
responsible,
etc."

But many parents are not abusers.

Non sequiter. I was not speaking about non-abusing parents. I
was
speaking of abusers. If you wish to discuss the non-abusers you
claim,
then do so.

This is alt.parenting.spanking, not alt.parenting.abuse!

It is also unmoderated.

Yes it is! ;-)

But more importantly, you cannot identify, nor can anyone else, the
line between "spanking" and "abuse" hence any discussion of
spanking,
which of course includes a high probability escalation to
abuse....as
is known by the incidences of just such abuse resulting in the
removal
of children by the state, is valid and on topic.

You are showing your stupidity again.

We've been over this before, and the obvious answer has been given to
you time and again, yet you keep coming back pretending it hasn't
been, babbling the same thing over and over.....so I have to ask you,
is that not STUPID, stupid?

Yes, you are STUPID! Even Chris Dugan tried to tell you that you are
STUPID. You didn't get it did you. All you say is "**** you, Chris"!
:-)

IF THERE IS NO LINE

Please point out where I said there was no line in the paragraph you
refer to above. There obviously IS such a line. The problem is,
Droany, and I'm giving you yet ANOTHER chance to grow up, IT IS NOT A
CONSTANT.

Being stupid again. Even the speed limit is not CONSTANT!

Hearing any bells going off yet? Some gears turning in your otherwise
empty head? I've practically held your hand to GIVE away the answer to
you but you are so lost in your denial you can't see it even with
help.

You are stubbornly STUPID!

then there is
no line to CROSS!

Sure there is. Child injuries are proof.

There you go. You know where the line is!

Back to english language lessons I see. I didn't say there was no
line. I said "But more importantly, you cannot identify" "the line
between."

ENGLISH? :-) Don't make me laugh. If you "cannot identify" the line,
how do you know it has been crossed?

That does not say it doesn't exist, now does it, dumbkins?

How do you know when it is crossed without knowing where it is, STUPID?
:-)

There is no way of DETECTING The Line. It's there alrightie, as one
can tell by the abused children removed from their parents; parents
that claimed they were just "disciplining" their children, and the
child is physically and psychologically, as well as developmentally
(which IS psychologically) injured.

What they claim is different from the truth! Are you so stupid to see
that they are just looking for an excuse? Do you know the the prima facie
speed law is to drive no faster than the speed that is safe? Are you
going to tell the police officer that you are too STUPID to see that LINE?
Or you are going to listen to Nathan and stay below the vicinity of that
LINE? Just like when discipline your kids, you make sure that you caused
no injury? SEE YOUR STUPIDITY now? ;-)

I will simply ask you The Question again, and how they are to
find
and
KNOW the line between discipline and abuse.

Ask your local DA or CPS, stupid!

I asked YOU. I'm interested in whether or not YOU know....if the DA
or
CPS persons were arguing in favor of spanking I'd be asking THEM.
Or
even if they were saying, "make up your own mind."

And I have already answered but,

Naw. Never happened tomadachi.

Being stubbornly stupid again, "never-spanked" boy! :-)

Nope. You haven't really. Because the answer is not only that it
cannot be accurately detected.....given all the possible variables in
children, at a given time, under various conditions of the punishing
parent (who are remarkably inconsistent though they claim otherwise),
and other circumstances NOT under control of the parent, OR the child.

Use your common sense, STUPID. Do you know how to talk to your child
without being verbally abusive?

apparently, you are TOO STUPID to
understand it.

On the contrary *I* understand it extraordinarily well. In it's many
permutations, including those put forward by the judicial in Canada,
and many authorities in this country as well..........NONE CAN SHOW
WERE THE LINE IS, only indicate what will happen if it is crossed and
certain conditions of the child ensue.

If they don't know where the line is, how do they know when it has been
CROSSED?

You didn't answer the question. As usual.

I did, many times.

R R R R....you THINK you did apparently. I find that a rather stupid
position, in the face of reality. YOU point to the line, I'll buy it.
YOU describe it in exact terms, as I ASKED FOR IN THE QUESTION, and
I'll buy that.

I can take you to the water-hydrant but I cannot make you pee! :-)

No Droaner, what you did was answer many 'questions' that you created
that were NOT the question I asked. You NEVER actually answered the
question....how is the parent to know where the line is..........no
one ELSE KNOWS, but you seem to think parents do that come here, as
you tell them to make up their own minds, and I presume YOU know or
you wouldn't work at trying to tell me.

I can't help you if you closed your eyes and stick your nose in
"smelly-****". ;-)

You are lying.

You have an interesting way of calling a disagreement a lie, and those
that disagree with your particular claim, liars on that point. I
suspect you are lying to yourself....long hard and deep.

And you don't call other people liars? ;-)

What is my lie, Droaner?

Because I have answered your questions OVER AND OVER and you still say I
haven't. So either you are lying or you are STUPID. Which is it? :-)

I said it is determined using the
"reasonable person" standard.

That's not an answer to the question I asked. Hence YOU are the liar,
droananator. And you alone.

You are stubbornly stupid again! :-) LIAR!

I asked you to specifically point out the line itself. Not what
someone ELSE would say or do or what "standard" they might use. The
"standard" you call upon is NOT an answer to The Question.

That is the standard that reasonable people used. ARe you unreasonable?
;_0

Now then. I'm a fair and reasonable guy, a good sport as it were, and
generous to a fault with poor disabled spanked children, so I'll play.

Exactly what WOULD a reasonable person determine as to the location
and identification of the line?

Use common sense, STUPID! Do you need to know EXACTLY at what force to
hold a baby without crushing the baby? SEE YOUR STUPIDITY NOW? :-)

And, please, don't embarrass yourself further with circular argument.
Saying it's what a reasonable person would determine over and over
again without pointing out the actual measurement, or how precisely
that measurement is taken, itself is a dead giveaway you are lying to
yourself again.

Then answer my question how do you know when the line has been crossed
without knowing where the line is? You are the one with the circular
argument?

As for the DA and CPS, I've asked. They cannot answer it. They can
tell me when abuse has occurred, after the fact, but they cannot
define that precise point where discipline becomes abuse, stupid!

Precision is not the issue.

One side of the line, no injure, the other side, injury. You seem to
be wallowing now in bogus claims. Precision is exactly what I asked
for, not some guess....THAT is what gets parents in trouble and
children injured...and I expressly said THAT was a criteria...NOT to
injure the child or get the parent investigated by CPS.

And you are so STUPID as to take Nathan's advice and stay well below that
line?

Sorry. Precision is exactly the issue. The child's injures would be
less serious were the line known precisely and avoided by the
punishing parent, and the parent would be less likely to end up a CPS
client and have children removed temporarily.......or, even a serious
enough injury ensued, forever.

Your are being stupid again. Do you know that less than one percent of
children are abused? That means more than 99% of parents managed to
discipline their children without abusing them. Banning spanking, as in
Sweden, has not shown to reduce the incident of child abuse. Your logic
is the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! :-)

The issue is there such a line.

Oh how you'd love to reframe my question into something vapid and easy
to handle. But injuries to a child do not allow for minimizing this
issue down to nothing but little boy blather. Sorry.

So stay under the line, STUPID.

If you are willing for others to risk that, just say so. We will
understand. And go ahead and tell them to "make up their own mind" as
many times as you like, but I will be here to remind you and them that
you don't know where the line is. Hence they must guess, and con
themselves into believing they DO know.

So you are going to make up their mind for them, Kane? ;-)

All willing to risk the child and the child's future. Have it, but
don't lie about it.

Have you look in the mirror lately? :-)

And if
they can determine when abuse has occured, they are saying that there
is a LINE.

Okay, following in my generous nature, were exactly, at what point,
did the abuse occur, and how can the parent use that information to
continue using CP and NOT cross that line again? You might want to
recall that some injury does not show for some time...in fact some is
not caught for years and the child's bonebreak goes untreated and
poorly healed. And least we forget, the psyche can also be injured,
broken, if you will, and never heal....for life.

So using your logic, you also wanted to know where "EXACTLY", at what
point, you are going to crush the baby's hand when you hold it???

And we should remember that parents who use CP often have more than
one means of applying CP. It's all very complicated isn't it now?

Not really, humans have been using it for THOUSANDS of years. They are
not stupid as you. :-)

AND as I said long ago and pointed out IS NOW NOT the question you are
trying to answer by pointing BACK to the event of the line having been
crossed. The parent has ALREADY CROSSED THE LINE, INJURY HAS OCCURED,
AND THEY MAY WELL BE IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW, as it is illegal to
injure a child.

What line? How do you know it has been crossed without knowing where
the line is?

My question expressly said that the line needs to be identified BEFORE
injury occurs. At least if parents who claim they would not injure
their child and KNOW were to stop are to be believed.

That just show how stupid you are!

I believe them. I do not think they consciously want to injure their
child. But I do contend there is something seriously amiss that they
cannot see as risk. I know where it comes from, and will address it
later using you as an example.

You are being stubbornly stupid again. Over 99% don't abuse their kids.
Of the remaining 1%, most are due to neglect. Even in Sweden, where
spanking are banned, child abuse still existed. Are you saying that
Swedish parents still don't know where the line is? SEE the STUPIDITY
of your logic now? :-)

They know but obviously YOU don't, and no legislator knows, or
legislative body, not even the Canadian one that ruled on this
spanking issue and made the restrictions SO very constrained in
action, age, point of contact, and instruments NOT allowed, no one
would ever, if they follow the law, come within a MILE of the actual
line that cannot be measured as yet.

Really? So why didn't they ban it. Are they so stupid or you are sto
stupid?

Isn't that nice? Eh? Eh? Wake up boy. I asked you a question.....R R
R R R

I can only take you to the water-hydrant, "never-spanked" boy. :-0

I've read the law, and the CPS policy in a number of states. NONE
point out anything but the aftermath, and NON CP PARENTING METHODS
TO
BE USED INSTEAD OF CP.

Did they tell you where the line is between talking to your child and
verbal abuse?

Of course not. They don't know that any more than they know the CP
line answer. But psychological injury to a child, sans CP, can be
measured after the line has been crossed and damage done.

So just like spanking, they shouldn't talk to their kids??? ;-)

But then, I don't recall that was the question we were considering.
Now was it?

That was my question to you, STUPID!

Not related to the one I asked you.

Yes it is! Don't be stupid! :-)

Was that not how you attempted, by asking that particular question
before, to escape answering The Question I asked, in our earlier
exchanges?

Nope! It's a aristotle technique to get you to see your own stupidity.
You still don't see it, do you?

Speak up boy, I can't hear you.

Not when your ears are closed, "never-spanked" boy! ;-)


So, they can't ID the line, and neither can you.

IF they can't id the line, how do they know when it CROSSED, stupid?

Why Only by the injuries that ensue, of course. Which of course also
is covered by my Question........how does one know the location of THE
LINE so they will NOT cross it and injure the child?

So don't cause injury. Is that so hard to understand, STUPID? :-)

You seem confused, child. Here, suck your sugartit and rocky
rocky....R R R R R

Is that what your momma told you when she want to breastfeed you,
"never-spanked" boy? :-)

Doan

You get dumber every time you try to weasel out of this one. NO one
has ever been able to answer The Question, and no one will, until we
are so advanced in science that we can utterly control a body's
environment and monitor ALL sensation and reaction to stimuli, ON THE
FLY, not in a lab. Unless of course the spankers want to set up a
spanking lab....

No one here is as stupid as you! Just ask Chris. ;-)

And by the time we are so wired that we can do those things, it will
be so obviously apparent that risking injury to a child IS THE
STUPIDEST, most species threatening thing one can do, or a society can
allow, that it wouldn't even be considered an option for
discipline...in fact punishment will be gone, as it couuld be RIGHT
NOW, if folks would wake up from their own childhood induced
dreamstate.

Funny! Human race has evolved to be the most advance specie. Where has
all the "non-spanking" cultures went, STUPID?

YOU are pushing for a law, stupid, while I'm trying to wake people up
before it comes to pass, so they will enthusiastically work toward
non-punitive parenting methods.

Where did I say I am pushing for a law?

You are an enemy of society by my reckoning. But you knew that
already.

LOL! "Enemy of sociery"????

Even in the spanked child there is, buried under all that cold pain
and fear, and hot barely in-check rage, a little spot where the truth
is.

And you are the one to know, right "never-spanked" boy? ;-)

That is the place you, a spanked child, never want to go, because it
would make you face the one thing no human can do easily......the
chance their parents didn't love them.....and hitting is A SUREFIRE
way to tell a child that you do not, even if you lie and say you do.

LOL! You are free to be delusional.

No child is ever really fooled by that or believes it, but to survive
they will construct the most elaborate pseudo-realities to believe in
and ways to hide the truth, and themselves from the truth.

LOL!

You do. A lot. Sad, idnit?

LOL! I feel sorry for you!

I made an error in the subject. I dashed it off too quickly and I
apologize. It should have read "Someone else thinks they know the
answer to The Question, and flunks. Four lives lost, though one is
still living."

LOL!

This is the typical outcome of such sad, psychologically driven
ignorance as yours. The world is awash in examples, from
interpersonal events to world affairs.

And you will bring peace to the world. ;-)

Kane0

Doan