If only sleep were carrots...

Caterpillar was extremely enthusiastic about carrots. She actually
finished a 2.5 ounce (70ml) jar over 3 days. And after the good carrot
experience, she was willing to eat rice cereal over the following 3 days
(more rice cereal than I would have given her, by the sound of it, but I
wasn't there).

She's been hard to put to sleep over the last month or so, and only
eating much solids for the last week, so I think her falling asleep
problems are unrelated. No matter how boring and unstimulating we make
things, she screams for 10-15 minutes at every bedtime unless she nurses
to sleep, and she normally refuses to nurse to sleep. Wednesday night,
she took a very long, very late nap, and when she woke up (at 9:30 pm!),
I whisked her away to the dark bedroom and we lay down and nursed then I
pretended to sleep. An hour and a half later, she was still sitting up
(for about 5 seconds at a time, then toppling over from exhaustion, then
struggling back upright), babbling quietly, and patting me to try and
wake me up. Allyson came in and put her to sleep (by holding her firmly
and patting her) with only 5 minutes of screaming. (If I try the firm
holding and patting, she squirms and thrashes and screams until she's
wiggled loose, then goes back to playing.)

Normally, once asleep she stays asleep as long as I latch her on fast
enough when she's hungry. Last night, she nursed to sleep (no
screaming!), but when she ate at 1:30am, she didn't stay asleep. She
nursed and pulled off and nursed and pulled off, and when I finally
recognized that as meaning she had to burp, howled when I tried to burp
her. So we nursed some more until I was sore on both sides and touched
out from being mauled by her sharp little nails - so I gave her to
Allyson, who was able to get a burp out in 10 seconds. But then she was
awake, and her tummy was full so she couldn't nurse back to sleep - so
she screamed for 30 minutes. Except she didn't scream for 30 minutes
straight - she'd scream for 5 minutes with tears running down her
cheeks, then stop and calmly look around at us for a minute, then yell
louder and louder with no tears, then stop look back and forth at us for
a minute, then cry hysterically until we were worried she was going to
make herself sick, then stop and calmly look at us for a minute -
repeated in various combinations for half an hour. Finally we put her
down on the bed by herself and she calmed down in a few minutes and
burped a little more and then wanted to nurse to sleep. (We'd tried gas
drops, with no success. She's been burping an unusual amount lately,
and gas drops don't seem to help, in that she'll burp a few minutes
after having the drops.)

The only thing I can think of is that the solids feel different
digesting, and when she doesn't have the normal daytime distractions, it
makes her a little uncomfortable. She's still having frequent liquid
bowel movements, so she's not constipated by the rice.

Any suggestions? 30 minutes of rude nursing followed by 30 minutes of
screaming in the middle of the night makes for cranky tired mommies, who
would gladly sell her to Gypsies as long as the Gypsies didn't want too
much money to take her...

Phoebe

Phoebe & Allyson wrote:

The only thing I can think of is that the solids feel different
digesting, and when she doesn't have the normal daytime distractions, it
makes her a little uncomfortable. She's still having frequent liquid
bowel movements, so she's not constipated by the rice.

Any suggestions? 30 minutes of rude nursing followed by 30 minutes of
screaming in the middle of the night makes for cranky tired mommies, who
would gladly sell her to Gypsies as long as the Gypsies didn't want too
much money to take her...

Phoebe


Teething? How many teeth have come in so far? The only reason I
suggest this is because DS is the same age, he has sinilar crying jags,
and we found the FOUR upper front teeth are coming in.

BTW, he won the race with his older sister - he got his two front upper
teeth in before her adult teeth came in.

Jeanne

Bruce and Jeanne wrote:
Teething? How many teeth have come in so far?

She has no teeth, despite 4 months of gnawing like mad. No teeth
apparent under the surface, either. Usually she'll gnaw her fingers at
bedtime and fuss, and we'll give her Tylenol, but not in the last week
or so.

Phoebe

Phoebe & Allyson wrote:
Caterpillar was extremely enthusiastic about carrots. She actually
finished a 2.5 ounce (70ml) jar over 3 days. And after the good carrot
experience, she was willing to eat rice cereal over the following 3 days
(more rice cereal than I would have given her, by the sound of it, but I
wasn't there).

She's been hard to put to sleep over the last month or so, and only
eating much solids for the last week, so I think her falling asleep
problems are unrelated. No matter how boring and unstimulating we make
things, she screams for 10-15 minutes at every bedtime unless she nurses
to sleep, and she normally refuses to nurse to sleep. Wednesday night,
she took a very long, very late nap, and when she woke up (at 9:30 pm!),
I whisked her away to the dark bedroom and we lay down and nursed then I
pretended to sleep. An hour and a half later, she was still sitting up
(for about 5 seconds at a time, then toppling over from exhaustion, then
struggling back upright), babbling quietly, and patting me to try and
wake me up. Allyson came in and put her to sleep (by holding her firmly
and patting her) with only 5 minutes of screaming. (If I try the firm
holding and patting, she squirms and thrashes and screams until she's
wiggled loose, then goes back to playing.)

Normally, once asleep she stays asleep as long as I latch her on fast
enough when she's hungry. Last night, she nursed to sleep (no
screaming!), but when she ate at 1:30am, she didn't stay asleep. She
nursed and pulled off and nursed and pulled off, and when I finally
recognized that as meaning she had to burp, howled when I tried to burp
her. So we nursed some more until I was sore on both sides and touched
out from being mauled by her sharp little nails - so I gave her to
Allyson, who was able to get a burp out in 10 seconds. But then she was
awake, and her tummy was full so she couldn't nurse back to sleep - so
she screamed for 30 minutes. Except she didn't scream for 30 minutes
straight - she'd scream for 5 minutes with tears running down her
cheeks, then stop and calmly look around at us for a minute, then yell
louder and louder with no tears, then stop look back and forth at us for
a minute, then cry hysterically until we were worried she was going to
make herself sick, then stop and calmly look at us for a minute -
repeated in various combinations for half an hour. Finally we put her
down on the bed by herself and she calmed down in a few minutes and
burped a little more and then wanted to nurse to sleep. (We'd tried gas
drops, with no success. She's been burping an unusual amount lately,
and gas drops don't seem to help, in that she'll burp a few minutes
after having the drops.)

The only thing I can think of is that the solids feel different
digesting, and when she doesn't have the normal daytime distractions, it
makes her a little uncomfortable. She's still having frequent liquid
bowel movements, so she's not constipated by the rice.

Any suggestions? 30 minutes of rude nursing followed by 30 minutes of
screaming in the middle of the night makes for cranky tired mommies, who
would gladly sell her to Gypsies as long as the Gypsies didn't want too
much money to take her...

This is similar to what DS had been doing over the last 6 weeks. It got
really bad on Sunday/Monday night with the screaming sessions going for a
couple of hours. Took him to the doctor and it turned out that he had an
ear infection. Within 12 hours of starting the antibiotics, he is back to
happily nursing to sleep and waking up only enough to eat at night and
then falling back asleep happily. He had no other symptoms that would
point towards an ear infection, but that apparently was the culprit. This
may not be your problem, of course, but your story seems similar to mine.

Manda

Phoebe & Allyson wrote:

Any suggestions? 30 minutes of rude nursing followed by 30 minutes of
screaming in the middle of the night

Hunter only ever acted like that when he had an ear infection. His behavior
was strikingly similar to what you describe. He never had temps with ear
infections. Only at night.

Luke only ever acted like that when he was a newborn and nursed without
being hungry. I think it was overeating, or gas. Once I figured it out and
let him suck on my finger instead of nursing him he was a happy clam. Again
only at night.

Could be both. If her ears (or teeth) hurt she may want to nurse for
comfort, then can't sleep either because of the pain, or because of the
gas/uncomfortablness of overeating.

Have you experimented with giving her some pain releiver? If that helps,
something is hurting her.

--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)

Nikki wrote:
Have you experimented with giving her some pain releiver?

If we give her Tylenol before bed, she sleeps much better. But I hate
to give her Tylenol every night for months on end.

Our doctor's nurse practitioner said that if she has an ear infection,
she's likely to refuse to nurse, rather than nursing more (in response
to us bringing her in to have her ears checked when she was acting like
she was in pain after getting over the flu - NP said it was just
teething). She's definitely a more distracted nurser recently, in that
she pops on and off more whenever she nurses, and rarely settles in for
a long nursing. But I'd attributed it to a recent increase in burping.

Phoebe

I think that Olivia and your Caterpillar have been conversing in the
middle of the night. Olivia does not want to stay asleep during the
night nursings anymore, wakes up screaming in my ear, very burpy and
hates to go to bed.

When you get it figured out could you throw the solution my way? Jeff
(hubby) actually ended up bathing her at 4:30 in the morning the other
night as it usually calms her down!!!

Tammy
momma to madeline (I sleep through the night momma! course... I am 2.5
and that is just taking into account THIS week)
and
Olivia (I hate sleep, I am never sleeping again)

Caterpillar was extremely enthusiastic about carrots. She actually
finished a 2.5 ounce (70ml) jar over 3 days. And after the good carrot
experience, she was willing to eat rice cereal over the following 3 days
(more rice cereal than I would have given her, by the sound of it, but I
wasn't there).

She's been hard to put to sleep over the last month or so, and only
eating much solids for the last week, so I think her falling asleep
problems are unrelated. No matter how boring and unstimulating we make
things, she screams for 10-15 minutes at every bedtime unless she nurses
to sleep, and she normally refuses to nurse to sleep. Wednesday night,
she took a very long, very late nap, and when she woke up (at 9:30 pm!),
I whisked her away to the dark bedroom and we lay down and nursed then I
pretended to sleep. An hour and a half later, she was still sitting up
(for about 5 seconds at a time, then toppling over from exhaustion, then
struggling back upright), babbling quietly, and patting me to try and
wake me up. Allyson came in and put her to sleep (by holding her firmly
and patting her) with only 5 minutes of screaming. (If I try the firm
holding and patting, she squirms and thrashes and screams until she's
wiggled loose, then goes back to playing.)

Normally, once asleep she stays asleep as long as I latch her on fast
enough when she's hungry. Last night, she nursed to sleep (no
screaming!), but when she ate at 1:30am, she didn't stay asleep. She
nursed and pulled off and nursed and pulled off, and when I finally
recognized that as meaning she had to burp, howled when I tried to burp
her. So we nursed some more until I was sore on both sides and touched
out from being mauled by her sharp little nails - so I gave her to
Allyson, who was able to get a burp out in 10 seconds. But then she was
awake, and her tummy was full so she couldn't nurse back to sleep - so
she screamed for 30 minutes. Except she didn't scream for 30 minutes
straight - she'd scream for 5 minutes with tears running down her
cheeks, then stop and calmly look around at us for a minute, then yell
louder and louder with no tears, then stop look back and forth at us for
a minute, then cry hysterically until we were worried she was going to
make herself sick, then stop and calmly look at us for a minute -
repeated in various combinations for half an hour. Finally we put her
down on the bed by herself and she calmed down in a few minutes and
burped a little more and then wanted to nurse to sleep. (We'd tried
gas drops, with no success. She's been burping an unusual amount
lately, and gas drops don't seem to help, in that she'll burp a few
minutes after having the drops.)

The only thing I can think of is that the solids feel different
digesting, and when she doesn't have the normal daytime distractions,
it makes her a little uncomfortable. She's still having frequent
liquid bowel movements, so she's not constipated by the rice.

Any suggestions? 30 minutes of rude nursing followed by 30 minutes of
screaming in the middle of the night makes for cranky tired mommies,
who would gladly sell her to Gypsies as long as the Gypsies didn't
want too much money to take her...

Phoebe

Phoebe & Allyson wrote in message ...
Any suggestions? 30 minutes of rude nursing followed by 30 minutes of
screaming in the middle of the night makes for cranky tired mommies, who
would gladly sell her to Gypsies as long as the Gypsies didn't want too
much money to take her...

Phoebe

I don't have good suggestions, but you have my sympathy. We have our
own sleep issues here but they are different, plus our DD is younger,
so our experience won't be helpful. When DD won't go back to sleep
after long nursings at night, I just put her on the mattress next to
me and turn over and ignore her. But she doesn't scream - she just
flails and grunts and eventually goes to sleep.

I have been reading "No Cry Sleep Solutions" and have found it
moderately (but not extremely) useful. I bet you are already doing
everything she suggests anyway, but you could take a look at it.

Are you spending more time away from her during the day? Could it be
delayed separation anxiety manifesting itself in odd nighttime
behavior? I really don't know, but for y'all's sakes I hope it passes
quickly.

If you get really desperate, my aunt says back in her day (the 50s),
her pediatrician told her to drink some wine before bed to help her
baby sleep (she was b'feeding). I haven't gotten that desperate yet
but thought I'd pass it along!

Rachel & DD, 3 months

Rachel wrote:
I have been reading "No Cry Sleep Solutions" and have found it
moderately (but not extremely) useful. I bet you are already doing
everything she suggests anyway, but you could take a look at it.

I bet we aren't, since we don't have it yet. I actually added it to my
Amazon cart this afternoon, since it's been so highly recommended.

Are you spending more time away from her during the day?

Not more time away, but I'm usually gone about 10 hours a day, and she just
howls when I walk out and clings when I come back. Poor Allyson feels like
chopped-liver Mama. Maybe sleeping all night pressed tightly against me
isn't enough, and she needs to be awake.

If you get really desperate, my aunt says back in her day (the 50s),
her pediatrician told her to drink some wine before bed to help her
baby sleep (she was b'feeding). I haven't gotten that desperate yet
but thought I'd pass it along!

Maybe I'll threaten her with that. When our midwife told me I needed to
drink some wine so I could get some sleep after ~20 hours of non-progressing
labor, I started progressing. I hate to be one of those people who
thinks their almost-8 month old is manipulating them, but Caterpillar does
seem to be a very stubborn, opinionated, *willful* baby. Since she got
those genes from both sides, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

She got up at 8:30 this morning, and has had a total of 1 hour of nap in the
11.5 hours since. Tonight may be interesting.

Phoebe
--
yahoo address is unread; substitute mailbolt

In article ,
Phoebe & Allyson wrote:

Nikki wrote:
Have you experimented with giving her some pain releiver?

If we give her Tylenol before bed, she sleeps much better. But I hate
to give her Tylenol every night for months on end.

Our doctor's nurse practitioner said that if she has an ear infection,
she's likely to refuse to nurse, rather than nursing more (in response
to us bringing her in to have her ears checked when she was acting like
she was in pain after getting over the flu - NP said it was just
teething). She's definitely a more distracted nurser recently, in that
she pops on and off more whenever she nurses, and rarely settles in for
a long nursing. But I'd attributed it to a recent increase in burping.

Phoebe


Phoebe:

It might be worth taking her in for a check since she's doing the pull
off and on kind of nursing. My ped just saw my dd for an ear infection.
I really complained as she's been sick for AGES and he said it seems to
be a pattern lately that he has seen child after child who had the flu
and then developed either bronchitis, ear infections or sinus
infections. So, phooey to that NP, any time my dd has been sick she
demanded MORE and MORE nursing, the difference was whether it was
regular nursing or interrupted jerk away a lot and make me sore kind of
nursing. I mean, maybe it *is* teething, but what if it's not?

I'm not sure which country you're in, but if you're in the US, e-mail me
at h h u s v a r at y a h o o d o t c o m (bunged up with spaces so that
address doesn't get spammed) as I have a copy of the No Cry Sleep
Solution you can have for $1.00 plus shipping.

Heather H.