What's fair with my partner?

I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
support...(just a little background info)

I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.

My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
every evening throughout the week here.

Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
just won't eat here.

Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
understands and appreciates what I do for him.

I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
before and nothing has changed.

I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
for money even before his first day at work).

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
time.

Rhonda wrote in message
om...
I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
support...(just a little background info)

I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.

My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
every evening throughout the week here.

Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
just won't eat here.

Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
understands and appreciates what I do for him.

I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
before and nothing has changed.

I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
for money even before his first day at work).

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
time.

If you don't feel like he is contributing like he should then maybe you
should tell him not to come over so much. Sounds like he is taking advantage
of you in some ways. Tell him if he is paying $400 a month for a tiny room,
maybe he should spend more time in the tiny room. Seems like mom has some
sort of weird influence over him. Why is he paying so much for just a room
and some food? I don't know where you live but it seems for a bit more, he
could have his own place. Is this man a kid? Sounds as though he needs to
grow up. If you love him though, you have to admit to yourself that this is
probably the way he is and do you want to put up with it for a lifetime?
Plus if money is such an issue and you have 2 kids in school full time....
why not get a full time job? Oh... yes... one more thing that kind of stuck
out..... you said you were being discreet because of the kids? If the man is
staying over, I can guarantee your boys are old enough to figure out was is
going on. Unless they are away on the weekends with their dad, of course.

Think things through and I am sure all the answers will come to you.

Tiffany

What's not fair is to expect an elephant to act like a giraff.

In other words, you knew what you were getting, a guy who wanted to be mothered
and taken care of. I don't know why you thought that would change. It's not
going to change. If its not what you want, don't take it personally and be
hurt. Look elsewhere for what you want.

Joelle

'Kate wrote in message ...
On 11 Oct 2003 00:26:48 -0700, (Rhonda)
I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
support...(just a little background info)

I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.

My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
every evening throughout the week here.

Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
just won't eat here.

Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
understands and appreciates what I do for him.

I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
before and nothing has changed.

I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
for money even before his first day at work).

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
time.

Get out, get out fast. You don't need another child.

'Kate


Yep, I agree with you there Kate.

Christine

Hi. Thanks for your responses. I will add, however, that my partner,
for whatever reason, seems to need guidance in certain areas regarding
the way he sometimes conducts himself. I know, based on the type of
person he is that he means well but sometimes gets lost and makes
mistakes. Although he's flexible and willing to learn. I'm good at
expressing how I feel. I never hold back and I ask for what it is that
I want and expect. He'll usually end up abiding by my wishes because
he sees my point. I told him that I need him to work towards
recognizing things for himself. He should have known, by himself,
that it would have been appropriate, for instance, to offer to pay for
the entertainment book.

All my friends like him and he seems to be an easy person to like. In
some ways, unfortunately, he does have some maturing to do and that's
the difficulty I have. It's a hard call. There are a lot of assholes
out there, from my experience. It's tough to meet a sincere person
and he IS very sincere.
Maybe I made my situation appear too black and white because I was
feeling frustrated...but it isn't....I feel that my partner has a lot
of good qualities.

After discussing this issue further, he was telling me that he should
give me some money too for staying on weekends. I told him that I
wouldn't feel comfortable taking money from him but that I'd rather he
help by purchasing things or buying dinner for us on occasion just to
show his appreciation. Does this seem reasonable or do you think I
should have accepted his offer of money?

As for what he gives his mother, that's another issue. He will
probably try and negotiate with her but it's a tough call because,
although she told him that she never expects the money back from when
he stayed for free, the reality is that he did stay for free for so
long. And, of course, on the other hand, I need to be treates just as
fairly.

This'll take some work. I do hope it works out. I don't want to dump
him.

Anymore feedback?
Thanks for all your responses

(Rhonda) wrote in message . com...
I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
support...(just a little background info)

I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.

My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
every evening throughout the week here.

Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
just won't eat here.

Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
understands and appreciates what I do for him.

I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
before and nothing has changed.

I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
for money even before his first day at work).

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
time.

Hi. Thanks for your responses. I will add, however, that my partner,
for whatever reason, seems to need guidance in certain areas regarding
the way he sometimes conducts himself.

Do you realize how ridiculis that sounds? That's not a relationship between
two adults, that's a parent child relationship. Sounds pretty sick to me.

Joelle

oaway (Joelle) wrote in message ...
Hi. Thanks for your responses. I will add, however, that my partner,
for whatever reason, seems to need guidance in certain areas regarding
the way he sometimes conducts himself.

Do you realize how ridiculis that sounds? That's not a relationship between
two adults, that's a parent child relationship. Sounds pretty sick to me.

Joelle

Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point. I know
that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
it is that you expect. The use of the word "train" is facetious but
you get the gist. When I've talked to different women about some of
my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
of the same issues.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to say a word and we'd have all
that we want from our relationship. In some ways, for whatever
reason, my partner could use a little refining but you'd never know it
if you met him. You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
personable, loves people and loves to laugh. On the other hand, I
have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
instance). I've been in and out of one relationship and I want to
make sure that I get what I want and need from this one.

The difference between what it would take to make me want to "dump
him" versus to "keep him" is that I know that he is always willing to
hear me out and make changes. After talking about all of this, and
even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me
out with certain things, like groceries and maybe a cleaning lady once
a month....and, believe me, I'll hold him to it if he forgets. He
realized that he wasn't thinking clearly. As for his mother, it seems
that she is concerned about her retirement and his help will really
help her out...even though it will be temporary. They agreed on an
amount close to the original and, for Toronto, that's as inexpensive
as he'll ever get.

I'm not looking for a profit from him. I'm just looking for fairness
and, if he forgets or lets it slip, I'll keep him on his toes.

As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
in underwear. Also, I have a couch in my bedroom and, if they come
into my room, they find my partner on the couch. It isn't because I
think they're stupid. Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door. Did you ever
think about what your parents were doing in their bedroom? We do it
out of respect. We don't flaunt anything and my kids are very
comfortable after knowing my partner for over a year.

As for the part-time work which was a question, I do what I feel I can
handle. It's tight for me, but I manage. My parents are deceased and
I have no family. I'm completely on my own and it gets pretty busy
being a single parent without any family support. I do my best.

I was frustrated when I wrote the first letter and I was looking for
advice on how to handle the situation. What is fair for me to ask for
and expect? He talked about money and I just don't feel comfortable
taking cash so I mentioned that he can help me out in other ways like
buying things I need or taking us all out for dinner.

He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out. If it
took Bill Gates several versions to get Windows right and it's still
not perfect, then why should something as complicated as a human being
be any different?

Any more feedback is welcome.
Thanks again and sorry for being so long winded.
Rhonda

Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point

Yea and my experience is that women who think they can change men end up
bitterly disappointed and surprised that an elephant never did turn into a
giraff.

I know
that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
it is that you expect.

Of course and when those non-negotiable expectations (we all have to give and
take and some expectations may need to be negotiated) are not met you LOOK
ELSEWHERE - do not expect a man - or anyone to be someone they are not to meet
your expectations. It's unfair to him and you end up taking it personally and
being hurt.

When I've talked to different women about some of
my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
of the same issues.

BECAUSE THEY ARE DATING THE WRONG MEN!

Just because most of the women you know are doing this does not mean it is a
good and normal thing. This is a thing women do that cause them pain. They
pick the wrong man and then think they can change him. They get so desperate
that they will never meet a suitable man that they grab onto the first "okay"
man (sometimes he's not even okay) and then try to make him something he's not,
and when he doesn't change- he's a jerk and they are hurt because he remained
who he always was.

You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
personable, loves people and loves to laugh.

Actually I tend to be suspicious of those "charming" types.

I
have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
instance).

Okay you like to nag. He seems to enjoy being nagged. That's what you signed
up for. So stop bitching about it. You are never going to stop having to nag
him. That's who he is. Either accept it or get out. But stop taking it
personally that he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. That's my point. Put up or shut up
or get out.

After talking about all of this, and
even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me

You don't think it's bizarre that you two are arranging your relationship based
on advice from strangers on the internet?

As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
in underwear.

Well I'm not the one that brought up the sleeping arrangements but since you
brought it up, I think you are giving a horrible example to your children by
bringing a man with whom you have no committment into your house and forcing
them to live with them. And you are kidding yourself if you think they don't
know exactly what is going on.


Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door.

Yarite. Whatever rationalization you make to make it allright in your mind.
Because as long as you get a sex life, the kids will be fine.

He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out.

Love is accepting a person's glitches. Nobody's perfect. Love is not changing
and ironing out your loved one. Love is accepting and being accepted, glitches
and all. As long as you think you can iron him out, you will never be happy,
and if you continue to think your men need to be changed, you will subject your
children to a stream of "good men with glitches" in and out of their home.

Joelle

Darn it Joelle,
I agree with every word you said.

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and 'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)

"Joelle" wrote in message
...
Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point

Yea and my experience is that women who think they can change men end up
bitterly disappointed and surprised that an elephant never did turn into a
giraff.

I know
that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
it is that you expect.

Of course and when those non-negotiable expectations (we all have to give
and
take and some expectations may need to be negotiated) are not met you LOOK
ELSEWHERE - do not expect a man - or anyone to be someone they are not to
meet
your expectations. It's unfair to him and you end up taking it personally
and
being hurt.

When I've talked to different women about some of
my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
of the same issues.

BECAUSE THEY ARE DATING THE WRONG MEN!

Just because most of the women you know are doing this does not mean it is
a
good and normal thing. This is a thing women do that cause them pain.
They
pick the wrong man and then think they can change him. They get so
desperate
that they will never meet a suitable man that they grab onto the first
"okay"
man (sometimes he's not even okay) and then try to make him something he's
not,
and when he doesn't change- he's a jerk and they are hurt because he
remained
who he always was.

You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
personable, loves people and loves to laugh.

Actually I tend to be suspicious of those "charming" types.

I
have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
instance).

Okay you like to nag. He seems to enjoy being nagged. That's what you
signed
up for. So stop bitching about it. You are never going to stop having to
nag
him. That's who he is. Either accept it or get out. But stop taking it
personally that he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. That's my point. Put up or
shut up
or get out.

After talking about all of this, and
even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me

You don't think it's bizarre that you two are arranging your relationship
based
on advice from strangers on the internet?

As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
in underwear.

Well I'm not the one that brought up the sleeping arrangements but since
you
brought it up, I think you are giving a horrible example to your children
by
bringing a man with whom you have no committment into your house and
forcing
them to live with them. And you are kidding yourself if you think they
don't
know exactly what is going on.


Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door.

Yarite. Whatever rationalization you make to make it allright in your
mind.
Because as long as you get a sex life, the kids will be fine.

He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out.

Love is accepting a person's glitches. Nobody's perfect. Love is not
changing
and ironing out your loved one. Love is accepting and being accepted,
glitches
and all. As long as you think you can iron him out, you will never be
happy,
and if you continue to think your men need to be changed, you will subject
your
children to a stream of "good men with glitches" in and out of their home.

Joelle

Paul Fritz wrote in message
...
Darn it Joelle,
I agree with every word you said.

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)



Oh you think so do you? lol

T