FAO Donna Metler and other music fiends!

Irene wrote:

Ericka Kammerer wrote in message ...

True, but oddly enough I know a *lot* of people who've
gone from flute to guitar and had a relatively easy time of
it. I have no idea why.


I don't suppose you know whether or not any of these people also
played piano, before or after any of those others? g


Nope, 'fraid not ;-)

The flute
player I know best (my sister) never tried to learn guitar...hmmm...an
experiment to try?


I've also heard saxophone is a relatively easy transition
from flute (which makes a certain amount of sense), but I have
no personal experience.


Oh, absolutely. The child absolutely has to have
input and desire. Fortunately, my first really, really
wanted to play piano (begged for years before he got to
start) and the second wants to do anything the first
does (though he won't start for another year or two).

Well, then it's very convenient that you think that's the best
instrument to start with! ;-)


Indeed--but hey, I gotta catch a break *once* in
a while around here ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Irene wrote:

Ericka Kammerer wrote in message
...

True, but oddly enough I know a *lot* of people who've
gone from flute to guitar and had a relatively easy time of
it. I have no idea why.


I don't suppose you know whether or not any of these people also
played piano, before or after any of those others? g


Nope, 'fraid not ;-)

The flute
player I know best (my sister) never tried to learn guitar...hmmm...an
experiment to try?


I've also heard saxophone is a relatively easy transition
from flute (which makes a certain amount of sense), but I have
no personal experience.

Saxophone and flute have almost identical fingerings, so the only real thing
to re-learn is the embouchure. And since even an alto saxophone takes pretty
strong breath support, usually the player already has the lung development
needed to handle flute (breathing is a big problem for beginning flute
players).

Clarinet to saxophone and back are very easy because the fingerings change,
but the embouchure doesn't.

Baritone horn and trumpet actually have identical fingerings, but the clef
differs, So does Tuba, but it reads lower on the staff (and adds a 4th
valve, as do some baritones).

In general, I prefer to start beginners on Trumpet, trombone, flute, or
clarinet (and I always have a few saxophones), because these instruments are
usually manageable for a young player, reasonably inexpensive for parents,
and serve as a good springboard. One of the axioms is that you can always
tell a sax player who started on clarinet instead of on saxophone, because
their embouchure is better. Clarinet is much less forgiving, so the student
doesn't learn bad habits, while on sax you can get away with more for years
at a time, and it isn't until you reach higher levels that it becomes a
problem.

"Donna Metler" wrote
"Irene" wrote in message
Ericka Kammerer wrote in message
Irene wrote:


Well, the big parallel between viola and guitar is that they are
both
stringed instruments, where you determine the notes with your left
hand, and the rhythm with your right hand, IYKWIM. I've known a
couple of people who tried to learn guitar after playing trumpet,
and
had a hard time going from doing everything all at once, so to
speak,
to dividing it up by hand.

True, but oddly enough I know a *lot* of people who've
gone from flute to guitar and had a relatively easy time of
it. I have no idea why.

I don't suppose you know whether or not any of these people also
played piano, before or after any of those others? g The flute
player I know best (my sister) never tried to learn guitar...hmmm...an
experiment to try? It may also have been that the trumpet players I
knew were just not as musically inclined, or something like that. I'm
definitely working off a small sample size! FWIW, a large percentage
of the guitarists I know played piano first, now that I think about
it. Another never played an instrument until recently, but was in
concert choir for years.

In my case, I first tried to learn guitar in college, and was not at all
successful. A few years later, when I was starting to teach music, and
wanted something more portable than a piano, I tried again, with no
problems
at all, and I am currently teaching (among other things) a beginning
guitar
course for kids in grade 3 and up.

I almost never use piano in teaching music, although it was required for
the
degree, because you either have a big piece of furniture between you and
the
kids (and probably can't see them), or your back to them! Neither is good.

Guitar is odd, in that reading music is very secondary-chords and tab are
much more important. And one advantage a pianist has is that they've
probably done at least some playing with chord notation (unless they're
VERY
classically trained, and NEVER tried to play outside that style) so it is
familiar. Wind players don't have to read chords until and unless they
decide to play Jazz.

At what age can a child be taught different musical instruments? Can a 5yo
learn to play a brass instrument? A reeded instrument?? Can a 3yo learn to
play guitar? When are they able to do that?

Is it best to just let young children play around with toy instruments or to
get them real instruments and get someone to give them instruction?

If a child is learning to play piano, will she get messed up if she tries to
learn to play violin?

Which age for which instrument?

I know that both my kids started violin at age 3. (Suzuki method, since
it's the only appropriate for tiny people.) My 8-year old is now
begging for piano lessons. I've heard that brass and reeds need to wait
until the kids are at least in 4th grade, but don't know any details.

I've known kids who started guitar and piano at age 5.

I'd love to hear from someone who actually knows,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

On 08 Nov 2003 21:55:44 GMT, (Beth Kevles) wrote:

I've known kids who started guitar and piano at age 5.

I started piano at 3 1/2. No idea whether this was good or bad,
(I don't play professionally), but I still love piano.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Vicki wrote:


At what age can a child be taught different musical instruments? Can a 5yo
learn to play a brass instrument? A reeded instrument?? Can a 3yo learn to
play guitar? When are they able to do that?


Younger children can learn piano and appropriately scaled
down string instrument (perhaps including guitar). Wind instruments
take more physical development, and most band programs start at
around 10 years old. You could probably start a wee bit earlier
than that with wind instruments, but not by a lot. I think three
years old is too young to start training on a particular instrument.
I'd like to see more music awareness sorts of things at that stage--
playing around with movement and rhythm and songs and rhymes and
that sort of thing.


Is it best to just let young children play around with toy instruments or to
get them real instruments and get someone to give them instruction?


I think playing around with basic instruments and being
exposed to music is great for little ones, but I think you have
to provide quality instruments that make nice sounds. Personally,
I think you can start formal instruction too early and burn kids
out before they've even really gotten started. You don't have
to start them as preschoolers for them to play well.


If a child is learning to play piano, will she get messed up if she tries to
learn to play violin?


Why would she? Lots of people learn multiple instruments.
You might want to start with one and add another later, particularly
if you're starting young, so as not to overburden a child.
Remember, each instrument comes with daily practice time. Not
only do a lot of kids who take up music underestimate the
impact of practice time, but a lot of parents do also--particularly
since the parent will be sitting right there with the child
if the child starts very young. Starting a four year old out
on two different instruments is likely to mean an hour or more
practice a day, likely taken in smaller increments because he
or she won't have an attention span long enough to do it all
at once. That could be a real challenge for many kids
(and their families). Battling over practice time is a
good way to sour a kid on music. I think it's important
to know what you child is ready for and what sort of approach
will work for your child and choose instruments, teachers,
methods, and schedules appropriately.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Vicki wrote:

At what age can a child be taught different musical instruments? Can a
5yo
learn to play a brass instrument? A reeded instrument?? Can a 3yo
learn to
play guitar? When are they able to do that?

Younger children can learn piano and appropriately scaled
down string instrument (perhaps including guitar). Wind instruments
take more physical development, and most band programs start at
around 10 years old. You could probably start a wee bit earlier
than that with wind instruments, but not by a lot.

Thanks. That's what I was wondering, when Kids are physically ready for
different instruments. I've never played anything but a piano, and I have
no idea what it takes to play other instruments.

I think three
years old is too young to start training on a particular instrument.
I'd like to see more music awareness sorts of things at that stage--
playing around with movement and rhythm and songs and rhymes and
that sort of thing.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking formal training for the three year old. Just
someone to show him how to make different notes, and he could play and try
it as he wanted. But if he's not physically able to play, it wouldn't make
sense to have him try. He's asking for a guitar (I'd been thinking bongo
drums at his age.)


Is it best to just let young children play around with toy instruments
or to
get them real instruments and get someone to give them instruction?

I think playing around with basic instruments and being
exposed to music is great for little ones, but I think you have
to provide quality instruments that make nice sounds. Personally,
I think you can start formal instruction too early and burn kids
out before they've even really gotten started. You don't have
to start them as preschoolers for them to play well.

Our 5yo is asking for a horn. Sounds like he has to wait til 10 to be able
to play a real one. I don't know if 5yo's can play toy horns (I've seen toy
saxophones & trumpets) or if they sound good. I don't think even the 5yo is
ready for formal ongoing instruction. But if he has a real instrument
(other than a piano) I'd have to get someone else to teach him (us) the
basics b/c I know nothing.


If a child is learning to play piano, will she get messed up if she
tries to
learn to play violin?


Why would she? Lots of people learn multiple instruments.

Some posters said start with a violin and the piano would be difficult, or
with the piano and the violin would be difficult. Since I've never played
the violin I just wondered if playing that would mess up her progress on the
piano. I frankly don't understand how a violin works. And I guess I
thought the music for all instruments was written the same--I'd never
thought about how it would have to be written differently from how its
written for piano.

You might want to start with one and add another later, particularly
if you're starting young, so as not to overburden a child.
Remember, each instrument comes with daily practice time. Not
only do a lot of kids who take up music underestimate the
impact of practice time, but a lot of parents do also--particularly
since the parent will be sitting right there with the child
if the child starts very young. Starting a four year old out
on two different instruments is likely to mean an hour or more
practice a day, likely taken in smaller increments because he
or she won't have an attention span long enough to do it all
at once. That could be a real challenge for many kids
(and their families). Battling over practice time is a
good way to sour a kid on music.

Good point. The 7yo is taking piano now. She practices about 15 minutes a
day. After your child plays the assigned pieces (takes about 10 minutes),
how do you have them practice? I've had her play the song and count out the
measure (?) and play the song and say the notes she's playing, play the song
and sing the words. But I'm not sure how productive that is. Do you have
your child play the song over again til the time is up? Is there a standard
way to approach practice? Does violin take more practice time than piano?

I think it's important
to know what you child is ready for and what sort of approach
will work for your child and choose instruments, teachers,
methods, and schedules appropriately.

That is what I'd like to do! But I don't know much about playing
instruments or teaching music or even about how it is taught. I can see my
kids have different learning styles and apply that to academic subjects, but
have no idea how that applies to learning to play music, or which instrument
might be best for each. Ironic, I'm not into sports, but I can kind of see
how one child would be better suited to play baseball or golf, another's
personality seems more suited for football or hockey, and the third, well,
maybe swimming or running. But I am not able to see what instrument might
best suit them. Can you who are musically inclined see this in your
children? Have a sense of what instrument best suits them? And how they'd
best be taught?

Thanks.
Vicki

Vicki wrote:


Yeah, I wasn't thinking formal training for the three year old. Just
someone to show him how to make different notes, and he could play and try
it as he wanted. But if he's not physically able to play, it wouldn't make
sense to have him try. He's asking for a guitar (I'd been thinking bongo
drums at his age.)


I'd probably stick with rhythm instruments, and maybe
a nice glockenspiel or some such thing. They can get a lot out
of those, and you can buy good quality instruments at a
reasonable price. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that
a nice guitar that was small enough for such little
fingers would be more money than I'd want to spend on
something that would be outgrown so soon. Plus, I don't
think guitar is all that easy on little fingers! They do
teach Suzuki violin that young (or at least some teachers
do). I've never been a fan, but some love it.


Our 5yo is asking for a horn. Sounds like he has to wait til 10 to be able
to play a real one. I don't know if 5yo's can play toy horns (I've seen toy
saxophones & trumpets) or if they sound good.


I haven't heard them, but my hunch is that they sound bad ;-)

I don't think even the 5yo is
ready for formal ongoing instruction. But if he has a real instrument
(other than a piano) I'd have to get someone else to teach him (us) the
basics b/c I know nothing.


My kids have asked to play various instruments.
I just told them that piano was the first stepping stone,
and they were fine with that. Fortunately, the first
really, really wants to be a percussionist, and piano
really *is* important for that. The second isn't quite
sure what he wants to play, but since his big brother
is playing piano, that's what he wants to do now ;-)


Some posters said start with a violin and the piano would be difficult, or
with the piano and the violin would be difficult.


I don't think it messes anyone up in terms of being
able to play either. It's just how you learn to read and
process music. I started on flute and played that for years
before panicking and taking a little piano in high school in
the hopes of avoiding class piano requirements in music school
in college (didn't work). I found it somewhat torturous to
learn piano at that stage, just because I was so accustomed
to reading a single line of music in treble clef. If I hadn't
been a music major, I probably never would have touched a
piano and would have been fine, but as a music major I was
required to take piano, so I suffered ;-) Now, I wish I'd
started on piano partly to have gotten out of class piano in
college and partly just because it's a neat instrument to
be able to play (I frequently need an accompanist to fully
realize the pieces I play--piano music more often stands on
its own!)

Since I've never played
the violin I just wondered if playing that would mess up her progress on the
piano. I frankly don't understand how a violin works. And I guess I
thought the music for all instruments was written the same--I'd never
thought about how it would have to be written differently from how its
written for piano.


It's mostly the same--just maybe in different clefs
(say, tenor or alto clef for a few instruments--most are in
treble or bass clef, though) and a single line instead of
multiple lines. Pretty much piano is as hard as it gets,
which is why it can be hard to go back and pick up piano
from a music reading standpoint ;-)


Good point. The 7yo is taking piano now. She practices about 15 minutes a
day. After your child plays the assigned pieces (takes about 10 minutes),
how do you have them practice? I've had her play the song and count out the
measure (?) and play the song and say the notes she's playing, play the song
and sing the words. But I'm not sure how productive that is. Do you have
your child play the song over again til the time is up? Is there a standard
way to approach practice? Does violin take more practice time than piano?


Hmmm...my 8yo practices piano about 30-45 minutes a day
(though sometimes it's hard to find the time), but we never
have trouble filling up the time. He does probably 10 minutes
on scales and warmups (we can barely fit all his scales in that
amount of time--he does five-fingered scales parallel, contrary,
triad, arpeggio parallel, triad, arpeggio contrarty for each of
the major and minor scales he's learned so far, which is about
half of the majors and a quarter of the minors). Then he'll spend
another 10-20 minutes working on his technique book pieces,
then 10-15 minutes on whatever performance piece he's working
on, then a little time on theory. So it's really easy for us
to fill up the time! He started playing piano in September,
but he's ramped up fairly quickly. He's thriving on it,
though, and doesn't find the amount of work stressful. Our
only trouble has been carving out the practice time because
he's been such a stinker dragging his feet over his schoool
homework.


That is what I'd like to do! But I don't know much about playing
instruments or teaching music or even about how it is taught. I can see my
kids have different learning styles and apply that to academic subjects, but
have no idea how that applies to learning to play music, or which instrument
might be best for each. Ironic, I'm not into sports, but I can kind of see
how one child would be better suited to play baseball or golf, another's
personality seems more suited for football or hockey, and the third, well,
maybe swimming or running. But I am not able to see what instrument might
best suit them. Can you who are musically inclined see this in your
children? Have a sense of what instrument best suits them? And how they'd
best be taught?


Well, that's a really weird thing, I think. I guess
I *DO* have a notion about which instruments will suit my
kids, but I try really hard not to let on about that because
I suspect it's prejudiced based on years of playing in bands ;-)
*I* think my eldest is a percussionist and my second is a
trumpet player (third's still too young to know). I freely
admit that this is based on nothing concrete, and probably
as much on their personalities as anything else ;-) Oddly,
the first really *wants* to play percussion, so I find that
a little scary. I have no idea what the second wants yet
(neither does he, and it's not a thing I push). I just try
to expose them to many different kinds of music and instruments
and talk about what the various instruments are like and
what they sound like. I think if you do that, you'll find
out that they start to have preferences after a while, and
in plenty of time to make decisions about band or orchestra
instruments.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Hi -

We took a multi-faceted approach. Both kids started nursery school at
the age of two, and the school had a great musician in to do music with
the kids several days a week. "Music" at nursery school involved lots of
singing, rhythm games, singing with movement, moving to the music
.... stuff like that.

At the age of three we added on Suzuki violin lessons. They started out
with one 15-minute lesson/week, and daily practices of about 2-4
minutes, always with me, never independently. The Suzuki method
requires that parents practice with their kids. There was also an age-
appropriate "group class" once a week (about 2/3 of the weeks). Stricit
Suzuki method has gropu class weekly. Both kid started out with a "box"
violin (made out of a kleenex box and a ruler) that they used to learn
how to handle the instrument correctly, the beginnings of posture ... If
you want more details about Suzuki, the book I recommend is "Anyone Can
Twinkle". (The first song everyone learns is "Twinkle, Twinkle Little
Star".) With Suzuki there's a LOT of listening as well as playing, and
no reading of music for quite a while.

Finally, starting at age 5, both kids went to a great music and art day
camp in our area where the kids get Orff classes, dance classes, tons of
singing, and an "instrument sampler" where for 45 minutes a day they get
to learn about, touch and try out a variety of musical instruments.
Percussion daily. (At 3rd grade they get to pick an instrument "focus"
and get daily group lessons in their instrument of choice.) They both
LOVED the camp and can't wait to go back.

I don't play any instrument well. The kids do, and usually enjoy it.
They're accustomed to practicing; it's part of their life routine, so
they don't usually object. They have very good ears for their age,
which I think comes from listening to and thinking about music from such
an early age.

My kids did violin. Suzuki method is available for piano and guitar,
and cello and viola, of course. ANd you can start at any age.

For young children, Orff and Eurythmics are also excellent methods for
"playing to learn". Kids have a great time and learn a lot too.

I hope these thoughts help. Any or none of these things may work for
your family. There's nothing magic about learning a particular
instrument, nor starting at a particular age. What IS important is
having music in the atmosphere and, when your child DOES start an
instrument, practicing intelligently.

Now, as to practicing ... My older son, at age 7, practiced 20 minutes a
day, most days. He worked through his newest piece a few times,
repeating any bits that he made mistakes on. (Ie, you don't have to
play the WHOLE piece through to work on the sticky bits.) Then he played
through his previous piece, working on polishing it. But he opened his
practice by taking an easy piece, one he'd played for a long time, and
using it to practice his good posture, good technique. Finally, he
played through several review pieces to keep them in his actice
repertoire. Often he would conclude by selecting one or several pieces
to play as a "treat". (My 6-year old practices only 20 minutes at a go,
and has not yet settled into a formal practice sequence.)

Cheers,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"Vicki" wrote in message
...
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Vicki wrote:

At what age can a child be taught different musical instruments? Can
a
5yo
learn to play a brass instrument? A reeded instrument?? Can a 3yo
learn to
play guitar? When are they able to do that?

Younger children can learn piano and appropriately scaled
down string instrument (perhaps including guitar). Wind instruments
take more physical development, and most band programs start at
around 10 years old. You could probably start a wee bit earlier
than that with wind instruments, but not by a lot.

Thanks. That's what I was wondering, when Kids are physically ready for
different instruments. I've never played anything but a piano, and I have
no idea what it takes to play other instruments.

I think three
years old is too young to start training on a particular instrument.
I'd like to see more music awareness sorts of things at that stage--
playing around with movement and rhythm and songs and rhymes and
that sort of thing.
I recommend programs like Kindermusik or musicgarten, or classes taught by
music teachers trained in one or more developmental music approaches (Orff,
Kodaly, Dalcroze, Labian). Both Kindermusik and Musicgarten are Orff-based.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking formal training for the three year old. Just
someone to show him how to make different notes, and he could play and try
it as he wanted. But if he's not physically able to play, it wouldn't
make
sense to have him try. He's asking for a guitar (I'd been thinking bongo
drums at his age.)
Guitars can be scaled down. I usually start guitar at age 7 or so, primarily
because of fine motor coordination-unlike violin, guitar requires using more
than one finger at a time. In addition, 1/4 size guitars have VERY tight,
thin strings, and it takes a lot of force to push them down hard enough to
change the chord. Starting a child too early is likely to be very
frustrating for the child. And just because an instrument is small doesn't
make it easy.

If you're going to get a guitar for a young child, get one with nylon, not
steel strings. Much gentler on small fingers-if you slide your fingers on a
steel string, you can literally cut yourself.


Is it best to just let young children play around with toy instruments
or to
get them real instruments and get someone to give them instruction?

I think playing around with basic instruments and being
exposed to music is great for little ones, but I think you have
to provide quality instruments that make nice sounds. Personally,
I think you can start formal instruction too early and burn kids
out before they've even really gotten started. You don't have
to start them as preschoolers for them to play well.

Our 5yo is asking for a horn. Sounds like he has to wait til 10 to be
able
to play a real one. I don't know if 5yo's can play toy horns (I've seen
toy
saxophones & trumpets) or if they sound good. I don't think even the 5yo
is
ready for formal ongoing instruction. But if he has a real instrument
(other than a piano) I'd have to get someone else to teach him (us) the
basics b/c I know nothing.
I'd suggest a recorder, or even a pre-corder, if he wants a wind instrument.
Horn is one of the hardest instruments to play, and most wind teachers start
would-be horn players on trumpet and then switch them to horn after a few
years. (I am firmly in this camp-the air support required to make horn sound
good is immense, and a child should really start on a double horn, which is
an unwieldy and expensive instrument)


If a child is learning to play piano, will she get messed up if she
tries to
learn to play violin?


Why would she? Lots of people learn multiple instruments.

Some posters said start with a violin and the piano would be difficult, or
with the piano and the violin would be difficult. Since I've never played
the violin I just wondered if playing that would mess up her progress on
the
piano. I frankly don't understand how a violin works. And I guess I
thought the music for all instruments was written the same--I'd never
thought about how it would have to be written differently from how its
written for piano.

If the child WANTS to do this, and is ready to put in the practice time, no
problem. If the parent is pushing it, or the child doesn't want to practice
instrument one, BIG problem. This is really up to the child.

You might want to start with one and add another later, particularly
if you're starting young, so as not to overburden a child.
Remember, each instrument comes with daily practice time. Not
only do a lot of kids who take up music underestimate the
impact of practice time, but a lot of parents do also--particularly
since the parent will be sitting right there with the child
if the child starts very young. Starting a four year old out
on two different instruments is likely to mean an hour or more
practice a day, likely taken in smaller increments because he
or she won't have an attention span long enough to do it all
at once. That could be a real challenge for many kids
(and their families). Battling over practice time is a
good way to sour a kid on music.

Good point. The 7yo is taking piano now. She practices about 15 minutes
a
day. After your child plays the assigned pieces (takes about 10 minutes),
how do you have them practice? I've had her play the song and count out
the
measure (?) and play the song and say the notes she's playing, play the
song
and sing the words. But I'm not sure how productive that is. Do you have
your child play the song over again til the time is up? Is there a
standard
way to approach practice? Does violin take more practice time than piano?

This is a reasonable way to practice. In general, violin won't be that
different, but it requires more ear training and auditory development. In
Suzuki (which is the only violin method I recommend for children below age 9
or 10), listening is as important as any other part of practice.
I think it's important
to know what you child is ready for and what sort of approach
will work for your child and choose instruments, teachers,
methods, and schedules appropriately.

That is what I'd like to do! But I don't know much about playing
instruments or teaching music or even about how it is taught. I can see
my
kids have different learning styles and apply that to academic subjects,
but
have no idea how that applies to learning to play music, or which
instrument
might be best for each. Ironic, I'm not into sports, but I can kind of
see
how one child would be better suited to play baseball or golf, another's
personality seems more suited for football or hockey, and the third, well,
maybe swimming or running. But I am not able to see what instrument might
best suit them. Can you who are musically inclined see this in your
children? Have a sense of what instrument best suits them? And how
they'd
best be taught?

Thanks.
Vicki