son is often tired

Rosalie B. wrote:
"Stephanie" wrote:

Penny Gaines wrote:

The problem is that he is later tired during the day. Yawning,
rubbing eyes, emotional...

So he doesn't think he has a problem - you think he has a problem.



He complains that he is tired.

Would it be possible to let him sleep in so that he isn't tired later
in the day? Maybe he's just a night owl.



He can sleep in as much as he wishes. He often wakes up having to go to the
bathroom or whatnot.

snip
I don't think pretend games are a problem, as long as they are all
in his head. Alternative methods are the old favourite of counting
sheep (or footballs, or just numbers). Variations are counting up
to ten, and then restarting from zero. Or counting backwards from
some number. Or doing sums.

When I was about 5, we were on a train trip and at night my 3 yo
sister asked my dad to read her a story. He said if she could stay
awake until he finished what he was doing, that he would. And try as
she would, she could not stay awake. I concluded that the best way to
put myself to sleep was to try NOT to go to sleep. And that's what I
did from then on and I still do it. I make up stories in my head and
find that I've gone to sleep pretty quickly. The only time this
doesn't work is if I'm really worried about something (like when my
son wasn't home yet or something like that) to the extent that my mind
keeps going back to that regardless of whatever else I try to think
about. Even then, if I concentrate really hard, I can at least doze
some.

Stephanie wrote:

He can sleep in as much as he wishes. He often wakes up having to go to the
bathroom or whatnot.

Hmmm...does he have regular sleep times and wake times?
Lack of a consistent sleep routine can be a real problem, especially
for some people.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Stephanie wrote:
Penny Gaines wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
My son is very often tired. I am a firm believer in the importance
of sleep! I think the main problem is that his mind is always
thinking and moving. He has a hard time stilling his mind. He will
lay awake in bed playing in his head all sorts of pretend games.

One thing that definitely helps is HARD physical exercise throughout
the day. And we are working to increase this further.

Another thing I thought would help if we were able to learn some
meditaton skills. I don't really know much about meditation. So I
guess I have to have a clue before introducing it. Does anyone have
any thoughts on how to proceed or other helpful ideas for sleep?
Once asleep, he has no trouble. But *falling* asleep is a problem
for him, especially now that he is a little older.

Are you sure falling asleep is a *problem* or do you just mean it
takes him some time?



The problem is that he is later tired during the day. Yawning,
rubbing eyes, emotional...

The worst thing you can do with a falling asleep problem is to worry
about it. Some people do genuinely take a little time to fall asleep
- 20 minutes is perfectly normal, or even longer.



Well 20 minutes would be a joy beyond belief! Longer... on an order of
magnitude is what we are dealing with.



Worrying about not-being-asleep-yet turns into a vicious circle,
which keeps you awake.


How would you suggest limiting his worry? He gets no angst out of me.
I am not there in his bed.

Is he actually worried? Let him rattle around in his room for a while with
the focus off sleep and more on just doing quiet, relaxing things. That is,
no full-on light sabre battles with the shadows while bouncing off the walls
but pretty much anything up to that.




I don't think pretend games are a problem, as long as they are all in
his head. Alternative methods are the old favourite of counting
sheep (or footballs, or just numbers). Variations are counting up
to ten, and then restarting from zero. Or counting backwards from
some number. Or doing sums.


I am going to get him to add when he is 7 and wants to have fantasy
games in his head? I don't understand that.

With my DS7 I'm pretty sure the fantasy games in his head as he settles down
to sleep *are* a form of meditation and counting sheep. We can usually hear
him chatting to himself, making gun noises, singing or even clattering about
and sliding guiltily back into bed with the half-dozen toys and books he's
gathered since his offcial bedtime, if we come to suggest he "snuggles down
now". Sometimes he falls asleep instantly, other times it can take as long
as an hour.

Is your son allowed to turn his bedside light on a read or play quietly for
a few minutes if he's having trouble going to sleep? I tihnk that works
better as a settling device than asking them to lie quietly in the dark
waiting for that elusive sleep.

I'm a nightowl but there is a point in the early evening when I could
probably go to sleep easily (and then wake at 3am!) if I went to bed. It's
at around 7:30 or 8 pm for me so much too early on most nights. I get my
second wind soon after that and become wide awake again so rarely go to
sleep before 11 pm or midnight. Are you missing your son's 'best' bedtime by
being too early or late to catch it?

If he doesn't have to be up by a specific time in the morning for school can
you let him sleep on in the morning on the days you don't have to be out
early? You're homeschooling, I think, and anyway it's the northern summer
school-break now even if you aren't?

I'd look at changing his bedtime routine as well, to see if that made a
difference. If he has a quiet one now then make it more energetic or vice
versa. Read the official bedtime story earlier in the evening and have a
noisy game of cards or a board game instead. If he usually has a quick
shower in the evening try a long splashy bath with a full flotilla of boats
and imaginative sea battles in the bathtub. If his bedtime story is usually
read in his bed, move to the living room or mum and dad's bed for a change
of scene.

At seven I don't think I'd recommend a daytime nap unless the child had been
ill and I know my son wouldn't be able to settle for one during the day,
anyway.

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Stephanie wrote:

He can sleep in as much as he wishes. He often wakes up having to go
to the bathroom or whatnot.

Hmmm...does he have regular sleep times and wake times?
Lack of a consistent sleep routine can be a real problem, especially
for some people.

Best wishes,
Ericka


Yes he does. We have a consitent time and routine. I think we will
experiment with the no screen time in the evening and see how that flies.

Tai wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
Penny Gaines wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
My son is very often tired. I am a firm believer in the importance
of sleep! I think the main problem is that his mind is always
thinking and moving. He has a hard time stilling his mind. He will
lay awake in bed playing in his head all sorts of pretend games.

One thing that definitely helps is HARD physical exercise
throughout the day. And we are working to increase this further.

Another thing I thought would help if we were able to learn some
meditaton skills. I don't really know much about meditation. So I
guess I have to have a clue before introducing it. Does anyone have
any thoughts on how to proceed or other helpful ideas for sleep?
Once asleep, he has no trouble. But *falling* asleep is a problem
for him, especially now that he is a little older.

Are you sure falling asleep is a *problem* or do you just mean it
takes him some time?



The problem is that he is later tired during the day. Yawning,
rubbing eyes, emotional...

The worst thing you can do with a falling asleep problem is to worry
about it. Some people do genuinely take a little time to fall
asleep - 20 minutes is perfectly normal, or even longer.



Well 20 minutes would be a joy beyond belief! Longer... on an order
of magnitude is what we are dealing with.



Worrying about not-being-asleep-yet turns into a vicious circle,
which keeps you awake.


How would you suggest limiting his worry? He gets no angst out of me.
I am not there in his bed.

Is he actually worried?


I was responding to the poster who commented on worrying turning into a
vicious cycle. But he does have concern about it. He will complain that he
was up all night last night, which is clearly not literally true since he
was asleep in the am. But it can take a *really* long time for him to get
there.

Let him rattle around in his room for a while
with the focus off sleep and more on just doing quiet, relaxing
things. That is, no full-on light sabre battles with the shadows
while bouncing off the walls but pretty much anything up to that.


That is what he does ... though sometimes he gets wrapped up enough in the
game to get excited and kick the wall or make louder than usual shooting
noises.




I don't think pretend games are a problem, as long as they are all
in his head. Alternative methods are the old favourite of counting
sheep (or footballs, or just numbers). Variations are counting up
to ten, and then restarting from zero. Or counting backwards from
some number. Or doing sums.


I am going to get him to add when he is 7 and wants to have fantasy
games in his head? I don't understand that.

With my DS7 I'm pretty sure the fantasy games in his head as he
settles down to sleep *are* a form of meditation and counting sheep.


In this case, I think they are interesting enough to keep him busy and from
sleep.

We can usually hear him chatting to himself, making gun noises,
singing or even clattering about and sliding guiltily back into bed
with the half-dozen toys and books he's gathered since his offcial
bedtime, if we come to suggest he "snuggles down now". Sometimes he
falls asleep instantly, other times it can take as long as an hour.

Is your son allowed to turn his bedside light on a read or play
quietly for a few minutes if he's having trouble going to sleep?


The times we tried allowing him to read, he will simply read and read. It
does not allow his mind to still.


I
tihnk that works better as a settling device than asking them to lie
quietly in the dark waiting for that elusive sleep.

I'm a nightowl but there is a point in the early evening when I could
probably go to sleep easily (and then wake at 3am!) if I went to bed.
It's at around 7:30 or 8 pm for me so much too early on most nights.
I get my second wind soon after that and become wide awake again so
rarely go to sleep before 11 pm or midnight. Are you missing your
son's 'best' bedtime by being too early or late to catch it?

If he doesn't have to be up by a specific time in the morning for
school can you let him sleep on in the morning on the days you don't
have to be out early? You're homeschooling, I think, and anyway it's
the northern summer school-break now even if you aren't?



Many days he does sleep in. Many days he gets up because he is hungry or has
to go to the bathroom. Some mornings his sister makes too much noise getting
up and wakes him up. We basically NEVER wake him up.

I'd look at changing his bedtime routine as well, to see if that made
a difference. If he has a quiet one now then make it more energetic
or vice versa. Read the official bedtime story earlier in the evening
and have a noisy game of cards or a board game instead. If he usually
has a quick shower in the evening try a long splashy bath with a full
flotilla of boats and imaginative sea battles in the bathtub. If his
bedtime story is usually read in his bed, move to the living room or
mum and dad's bed for a change of scene.

At seven I don't think I'd recommend a daytime nap unless the child
had been ill and I know my son wouldn't be able to settle for one
during the day, anyway.

Hi --

Think about just what he's eating, especially in the evening. It
needn't be caffeine or sugar, just something that keeps *him* awake.
One of my kids had trouble digesting milk. We took milk out of his
diet, and his sleep issues practically disappeared. (Not saying milk is
his problem, just that *something* unsuspected might be.)

Another thing we did at this age was to *tell* the kids a short story,
and then have them think about the ending as they tried to fall asleep.

Good luck,
--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.

Stephanie schrieb:

Many days he does sleep in. Many days he gets up because he is hungry or has
to go to the bathroom. Some mornings his sister makes too much noise getting
up and wakes him up. We basically NEVER wake him up.

Sorry, but that doesn't really sound like a regular routine to me.

Get him up whenever you get up or his siblings get up. Make it a fixed
time, like 7 or 8a.m. or something and put him to bed at a set time,
too, like 8p.m. That gives him about 12 hours to sleep in, which means
even if he doesn't fall asleep right away he should get enough sleep.
Be super rigid for a while (I'd say 2 weeks) no exceptions except for
emergencies and a weekend is not an emergency, then see if it has
improved any.

Try the relaxation techniques, but if he sleeps in a lot that means he
will be awake longer and that's a cycle you need to break, if it bothers
you...

cu
nicole

NL wrote:
Stephanie schrieb:

Many days he does sleep in. Many days he gets up because he is
hungry or has to go to the bathroom. Some mornings his sister makes
too much noise getting up and wakes him up. We basically NEVER wake
him up.

Sorry, but that doesn't really sound like a regular routine to me.


I meant a regular go TO bed routine.

Get him up whenever you get up or his siblings get up. Make it a fixed
time, like 7 or 8a.m. or something and put him to bed at a set time,
too, like 8p.m. That gives him about 12 hours to sleep in, which means
even if he doesn't fall asleep right away he should get enough sleep.
Be super rigid for a while (I'd say 2 weeks) no exceptions except for
emergencies and a weekend is not an emergency, then see if it has
improved any.



That makes no sense. He is already walking wounded, and you want me to
curtail his sleep further? The problem is not being able to slow his mind
down. He has TOLD me this. His difficulty in falling asleep is worse the
more tired he gets, as is often the case.

Try the relaxation techniques, but if he sleeps in a lot that means he
will be awake longer and that's a cycle you need to break, if it
bothers you...



It is not me it bothers. It is him. I don't care when he sleeps. As long as
he does not feel tired all day. The problem is that he is not getting enough
sleep.

Stephanie schrieb:
NL wrote:
Stephanie schrieb:

Many days he does sleep in. Many days he gets up because he is
hungry or has to go to the bathroom. Some mornings his sister makes
too much noise getting up and wakes him up. We basically NEVER wake
him up.
Sorry, but that doesn't really sound like a regular routine to me.


I meant a regular go TO bed routine.

Yes, that's not helping him though. If he gets to sleep in he will not
be tired when you put him TO bed. He's not falling asleep when you're
putting him to bed, so he may need a better morning routine as in
getting up at the same time every day.

Get him up whenever you get up or his siblings get up. Make it a fixed
time, like 7 or 8a.m. or something and put him to bed at a set time,
too, like 8p.m. That gives him about 12 hours to sleep in, which means
even if he doesn't fall asleep right away he should get enough sleep.
Be super rigid for a while (I'd say 2 weeks) no exceptions except for
emergencies and a weekend is not an emergency, then see if it has
improved any.


That makes no sense. He is already walking wounded, and you want me to
curtail his sleep further? The problem is not being able to slow his mind
down. He has TOLD me this. His difficulty in falling asleep is worse the
more tired he gets, as is often the case.

Well, you are saying he's not able to fall asleep, which to me sounds
like he's probably not yet tired when you're putting him to bed.
Get him on a stricter schedule and see what happens. My guess is that
his system's pretty screwed up by the rhythm he has now so it'll take a
couple of days until he settles down.
I remember my school holidays, I would read until whenever, keeping
myself up, then sleep in the next day, so it was easier to stay awake
longer and thus I slept in even later the next day and that's how I got
screwed up with my sleep schedule. Not by waking early, by falling
asleep late.

Of course you're free to keep doing what you're doing and hope it'll
produce a different result, but my guess is it won't.

Try the relaxation techniques, but if he sleeps in a lot that means he
will be awake longer and that's a cycle you need to break, if it
bothers you...



It is not me it bothers. It is him. I don't care when he sleeps. As long as
he does not feel tired all day. The problem is that he is not getting enough
sleep.

Yeah. But by letting him sleep in you're making the problem worse.
Because he will not be tired at 8 when he got up at 10.

cu
nicole

You say the physical exercise helps. What are you doing in that
regard? When I was coaching a swim team I took two months of the year
off. One month after the big county meet in August and for the
beginning of school in September, and one after the winter season at
about the time of exams/graduation in the spring. Parents would
complain to me that they didn't like it for me to stop swim team
because their kids did so much better when they had swim practice -
more focused on homework, slept better etc.