Spirited boys in cub scouts revisited

In article , Cathy Kearns
says...


"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
Those boys have parents who have basically abdictaed their parental
role.

Yeah. You know, I like these boys actually. They aren't
bad kids. They aren't snotty or mean. They aren't bullies.
They're just too full of energy. They don't listen, they don't
follow directions, they don't stay still. It's difficult for someone
who isn't their parent, who hasn't dealt with this kind of child
before, and who hasn't had any kind of training to know how
to get through to them.

These parents have abdictated their parental role. But they are nice kids,
just too energetic, and not good judges of how to direct that energy. I
look at organizations like scouting and think if there are any clubs that
should reach out to kids like this, it would be scouting. Regardless of how
useless their parents are. Scouting could make a difference in the kids
life, to have a group, including adults that notices them and watches out
for them.

Which is all well and good. I think most leaders realize this. But there are
the other boys there, too, who may be cheated out of their Cub Scout experience
as the leader's attention and energy is consumed with just these boys.

Perhaps you're thinking of the Big Brother/Big Sister program. That would give
the boys one-on-one mentoring.

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Cathy Kearns
says...
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's
a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to
go
to meetings. The upside is, now your troop or den knows the parents won't
show up at all, so any disciplinary actions taken during meetings probably
won't get back to the parent. The troop leader or parents running the
meeting have free rein to rein him in.

Now, wait, Scouts isn't a charity. There are fees and dues just like for
other
activities. And rules.

Some activities do need adult participation, the woodworking projects
being a
prime example. And a parent being late to pick up a scout consistently is
just
abusive.

In our Cub Scout pack, we some similar problems, and sometimes it took a
call
from the Cubmaster, if a stern discussion with the Den Leader didn't help.
But
it rarely got to the point. Given the message, parents shaped up or
shipped
out. Some just need to be informed that BSA stands for Boy Scouts of
America,
not Baby Sitters of America.

Just to add affirmation to what Banty's saying here, Cub Scouts is billed
(or should be billed) as an adult-child program; it is not designed nor
intended to be a program that the boys complete on their own! At least until
they become Webelos (4th grade), the expectation from all the literature I
have read is that den meetings and other activities are intended to be
attended by the boys AND a responsible adult (parent/guardian/adult
sibling).

We have never had ANY trouble with this expectation among the parents in our
den, although I can't speak for the Pack as a whole. Every once in a while,
we have one boy at a meeting who cannot have an adult with him/her, but we
have so many adults there that it is easy to pick up the slack and cover for
that boy's parent at a single meeting. If it happened all the time, however,
it would be time for a serious chat with that boy's parents.
--
Be well, Barbara

"Cathy Kearns" writes:
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to go
to meetings.

Not ALL boys; atheists can't join. Gays either, though at Cub
Scout age that probably isn't an issue.

---
Merlyn LeRoy

In article , Brian Westley says...

"Cathy Kearns" writes:
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to go
to meetings.

Not ALL boys; atheists can't join. Gays either, though at Cub
Scout age that probably isn't an issue.

At Cub Scout age it really isn't an issue. Even in Boy Scouts, except perhaps
for Eagle requirements, it isn't an issue unless a boy makes it an issue.

It can be an issue for scout leaders. But, *many* scout troops are pretty much
ignoring these requirements, being rather liberal in how the family spiritual
requirements are applied.

Banty (ex scout leader, agnostic)

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:36:20 -0000, Brian Westley wrote:
"Cathy Kearns" writes:
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to go
to meetings.

Not ALL boys; atheists can't join. Gays either, though at Cub
Scout age that probably isn't an issue.

That's odd, I managed to be in Scouts from Cub onward, in spite of
being openly atheist, and taking out the references to god whenever
I said the scout oath. ;-)

I suspect either you're trolling, or you're perhaps referring to some
of the news stories from a few years back regarding the BSA's requirements
for scout *leaders*.

- Rich

Banty writes:
In article , Brian Westley says...

"Cathy Kearns" writes:
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to go
to meetings.

Not ALL boys; atheists can't join. Gays either, though at Cub
Scout age that probably isn't an issue.

At Cub Scout age it really isn't an issue.

Unless the boy (or his parent) is an atheist; then, it's an issue.
It was for Remington Powell when he was six years old, and for
the Randall twins when they were 12 years old.

For Cub Scouts, the boy's parent has to sign a Declaration of
Religious Principle, which states that only god-believers can be
the best kinds of citizens.

Even in Boy Scouts, except perhaps
for Eagle requirements, it isn't an issue unless a boy makes it an issue.

It's an issue if he's an atheist, just like being Jewish would be
an issue in joining a Restricted club. Sure, you can lie, and
there are a lot of clubs that ignore the rule, but that doesn't
remove the rule, nor does it change the fact that some people
can't join.

So it isn't accurate to say the Boy Scouts are for "all" boys.
The national BSA has said they AREN'T for all boys. Some are
prohibited from joining.

It can be an issue for scout leaders. But, *many* scout troops are pretty much
ignoring these requirements, being rather liberal in how the family spiritual
requirements are applied.

Banty (ex scout leader, agnostic)

I'm all in favor of ignoring the BSA's rules against atheists, but
that doesn't change official BSA policy, which is still "no atheists".

---
Merlyn LeRoy

user writes:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:36:20 -0000, Brian Westley wrote:
"Cathy Kearns" writes:
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to go
to meetings.

Not ALL boys; atheists can't join. Gays either, though at Cub
Scout age that probably isn't an issue.

That's odd, I managed to be in Scouts from Cub onward, in spite of
being openly atheist, and taking out the references to god whenever
I said the scout oath. ;-)

I didn't say it either, but that was back in the 1960s.

I suspect either you're trolling, or you're perhaps referring to some
of the news stories from a few years back regarding the BSA's requirements
for scout *leaders*.

No, the official BSA line is that atheists and agnostics can't
be leaders OR members. Here's their official legal website on it:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm
....
Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a
volunteer Scout leader or member?

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it
addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and
self.
....
Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who are unwilling to
do their duty to God?

A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for
94 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult
members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the
elements of the Oath or Law.
....


You can probably find a Pack that doesn't enforce the rules against
atheists and agnostics, but the national BSA can remove anyone's
membership at any time, and they'll remove anyone who they know to
be an atheist. Plus, if the Pack's leadership changes, you might
suddenly find yourself in a Pack that no longer ignores these rules.

The Boy Scouts, as it is today, is not for "all boys".

---
Merlyn LeRoy

"Brian Westley" wrote in message
...
For Cub Scouts, the boy's parent has to sign a Declaration of
Religious Principle, which states that only god-believers can be
the best kinds of citizens.

Um, no. At least, not that I'm aware of. Neither my husband, who is our
Pack's Cubmaster, or I--the Pack's Advancement Chair--have ever signed or
been asked to sign such a thing, unless that's hidden somewhere in the fine
print of the application for membership and we just never paid attention to
it.
--
Be well, Barbara

"Brian Westley" wrote in message
...
No, the official BSA line is that atheists and agnostics can't
be leaders OR members. Here's their official legal website on it:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm
...
Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a
volunteer Scout leader or member?

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it
addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and
self.
...
Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who are unwilling to
do their duty to God?

A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for
94 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult
members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the
elements of the Oath or Law.
...

Isn't it all semantics, though? I self-describe as an atheist in that I
don't believe in any sentient, divine entity, but I have no trouble using
the word "god" as shorthand for the natural forces of creation and
destruction that resulted in the universe and in humanity. It's not
precisely accurate, but it's better than the longhand version g. Within
that context, I have no particular problem taking an oath to do my duty to
"God" within the scope of my understanding what god is.

The only reason for anyone to have a problem with the Scout Oath's
requirement to affirm duty to God would be because he/she does not feel
capable of interpreting the word "God" beyond some preset definition.
Personally, I think many atheists/agnostics invest the word God with way too
much power; even the majority of true theists don't believe they understand
the true nature of God. Why atheists feel circumscribed by the theists'
definition of the word is a bit beyond me.
--
Be well, Barbara

In article ,
user wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:36:20 -0000, Brian Westley wrote:
"Cathy Kearns" writes:
The boy scout charter is to mentor boys, despite unhelpful parents. It's a
club for all boys, even those without the $5 and the parent with time to go
to meetings.

Not ALL boys; atheists can't join. Gays either, though at Cub
Scout age that probably isn't an issue.

That's odd, I managed to be in Scouts from Cub onward, in spite of
being openly atheist, and taking out the references to god whenever
I said the scout oath. ;-)

I suspect either you're trolling, or you're perhaps referring to some
of the news stories from a few years back regarding the BSA's requirements
for scout *leaders*.

- Rich


Last I heard, the boy scout oath still has a reference to God.

While YOU may take it out and ignore BSA requirements, it is still there
as part of the oath.

And the fact that you haven't been challenged speaks more to the
district you are in: in other places, boys (and leaders) have been
kicked out for being atheist.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care