undecided

I have spanked my children for the past 7 or 8 years. It seemed to fix
whatever problem they were having. But after I've seen how they enter
act with each other I'm not to sure I made the right decision. They
fight viently all the time. Fist a flying blood the whole works. I feel
maybe by trying to teach them wrong from right all I did was to teach
them violence.
No violent movies or tv shows because it teaches aggression And
then I spank(hit) them. What do I do?? Any and all feedback welcome.

"Billy Walker" wrote in message
...
I have spanked my children for the past 7 or 8 years. It seemed to fix
whatever problem they were having. But after I've seen how they enter
act with each other I'm not to sure I made the right decision. They
fight viently all the time. Fist a flying blood the whole works. I feel
maybe by trying to teach them wrong from right all I did was to teach
them violence.
No violent movies or tv shows because it teaches aggression And
then I spank(hit) them. What do I do?? Any and all feedback welcome.

It's a bit of a rut to get into I'm afraid.
It's the easy way out. Once spanking becomes your first option rather
than your last then things are going wrong.
When my son was about 11 his behaviour became increasingly bad
and I became reliant on smacking him to stop this.
And yes, it *does* work. However one quick smack across the legs
quickly became half a dozen to get the same effect.
Anyhow, various things he did made me realise this wasn't the way to
go and alternative methods were sought.

"Singular" wrote in message ...
"Billy Walker" wrote in message
...
I have spanked my children for the past 7 or 8 years. It seemed to fix
whatever problem they were having. But after I've seen how they enter
act with each other I'm not to sure I made the right decision. They
fight viently all the time. Fist a flying blood the whole works. I feel
maybe by trying to teach them wrong from right all I did was to teach
them violence.
No violent movies or tv shows because it teaches aggression And
then I spank(hit) them. What do I do?? Any and all feedback welcome.

It's a bit of a rut to get into I'm afraid.
It's the easy way out. Once spanking becomes your first option rather
than your last then things are going wrong.
When my son was about 11 his behaviour became increasingly bad
and I became reliant on smacking him to stop this.
And yes, it *does* work. However one quick smack across the legs
quickly became half a dozen to get the same effect.
Anyhow, various things he did made me realise this wasn't the way to
go and alternative methods were sought.

Often parents will find that spanking does work to stop unwanted
behavior. The very young child will stop simply because what ever they
were doing or where they were going is interupted by pain.

The assumption is, of course, that the child learned something. Well,
they learned a couple of things: watch out when the formerly trusted
caregiver approaches...stop whatever you are doing. That again appears
to the spanker as compliance.

If one extrapolates to the real world it becomes pretty apparent that
some very nasty unwanted things are happening though. Exploring the
environment is a drive in children, for good and important reasons.
Parents that get the point learn to enrich the child's
experiences....with things and activities....that intervene in the
unwanted behavior and redirect the child...but encourage more
exploration, safe, parent directed or parent allowed exploration.

It's not rocket science and doesn't even require discussion with the
child, though discussion with the child is recommended because it is
one more way of enriching her store of knowledge: words.

The 11 year old, in fact the child older than 7, presents an entirely
different and more difficult problem. They are way beyond the instant
response to pain. Your experience showed that.

I think the poster you replied to and other would be grateful if you
care to risk sharing your experience and what you turned to that
worked for you and your child.

Thank you,

Kane

"Kane" wrote in message
om...

I think the poster you replied to and other would be grateful if you
care to risk sharing your experience and what you turned to that
worked for you and your child.

Thank you,

Well, as you rightly point out it isn't rocket science.
We worked things out via communication, *why* was he doing the
things he did, and establishing a non-pain orientated method of
dealing with transgressions. A somewhat complex system of
groundings and witholdings of pocket money followed. This seemed
to work, far more than the old ritual of having his legs smacked,
something he grew used to. Then again kids aren't daft. he later on
became reluctant to wear shorts at all, figuring that having his bare
legs smacked was much worse than if it was done over trousers.
I can't say I blame him.

"Singular" wrote in message ...
"Kane" wrote in message
om...

I think the poster you replied to and other would be grateful if you
care to risk sharing your experience and what you turned to that
worked for you and your child.

Thank you,

Well, as you rightly point out it isn't rocket science.
We worked things out via communication, *why* was he doing the
things he did, and establishing a non-pain orientated method of
dealing with transgressions. A somewhat complex system of
groundings and witholdings of pocket money followed. This seemed
to work, far more than the old ritual of having his legs smacked,
something he grew used to. Then again kids aren't daft. he later on
became reluctant to wear shorts at all, figuring that having his bare
legs smacked was much worse than if it was done over trousers.
I can't say I blame him.

I wonder if you've given any consideration to exploring the presenting
problems...I can't remember if you told us...with an eye to supporting
whatever exploration your child is feeling he needs to do?

Most things we think we don't want them to do (and they persist in
doing despite punishment) are hints that some areas are calling for
more exploration by the child. I kept my children away from drugs in
their teen years by exploring their curiosity about drug and alcohol
use....not through using but through some serious study.

They visited clinics, and rehab centers, and recovery sites, and
talked to treatment folks and of course users. Nothing like a druggie
gone clean to lay it out like it really is.

Unless your child is into cutting people up I wouldn't worry too much
about behaviors you think you don't want them to do...and even then
maybe they just need a biology class..eh?

Sorry for the levity. I like to have fun while parenting kids so it
spills over into my posts sometimes.

Kane

"Billy Walker" wrote in message
...
I have spanked my children for the past 7 or 8 years. It seemed to fix

whatever problem they were having. But after I've seen how they enter
act with each other I'm not to sure I made the right decision. They
fight viently all the time. Fist a flying blood the whole works. I
feel
maybe by trying to teach them wrong from right all I did was to teach
them violence.
No violent movies or tv shows because it teaches aggression And
then I spank(hit) them. What do I do?? Any and all feedback welcome.

On of the biggest problems with spanking is that it does appear to work,
at least in the beginning, short term, and in the presence of the
spanker. This reinforces the parent for spanking and leads to the
erroneous idea that spanking works. You wanted to teach your children
right from wrong, but what you taught them in reality was to express
anger and solve problems with violence. You prohibited viewing violent
movies of television because you felt this would teach aggression.
Children imitate what they see, especially when this behavior is
presented as acceptable and effective. However, parents are the most
powerful role models a child has in his/her life. The power of parents
to model behavior is far greater than any television show. When you
spanked (hit) them, you taught them that violence and aggression is an
appropriate way to express feelings and resolve conflict.

What is wonderful is that you have observed your children, thought about
your parenting, and are questioning your decision to spank. The
solution is simple, but it is not easy. The solution is to stop
spanking. You may even want to explain this to your children since it
sounds like they are old enough to understand what you are saying. This
doesn't mean you will no longer discipline them, but it means that your
disciplinary methods will no longer include spanking. Be prepared for
things to get worse before they get better. Your children are used to
being spanked, and will test your resolve. But this will be temporary.

Set reasonable expectations for your children, explain the expectations
and your reason. Be concise. Children turn off "preachy" language just
as adults do. Use natural consequences (if you refuse to eat dinner,
you will be hungry). Use logical consequences (be sure your child
understands the 'logic' or this will be perceived as punishment). For
example, if your child is repeatedly late coming home at a specified
time (dinner, for example), the child could no longer be allowed to go
out before dinner for a predetermined amount of time. Logical
consequences should be a last resort, should be explained well in
advance, and should never be perceived as punishment.

Most importantly, talk to your children. Try to understand their
behavior and help them to understand reasons for your expectations. Be
clear and firm about what you expect.

Good luck.

LaVonne

"Kane" wrote in message
om...
"Singular" wrote in message
...


Well, as you rightly point out it isn't rocket science.
We worked things out via communication, *why* was he doing the
things he did, and establishing a non-pain orientated method of
dealing with transgressions. A somewhat complex system of
groundings and witholdings of pocket money followed. This seemed
to work, far more than the old ritual of having his legs smacked,
something he grew used to. Then again kids aren't daft. he later on
became reluctant to wear shorts at all, figuring that having his bare
legs smacked was much worse than if it was done over trousers.
I can't say I blame him.

I wonder if you've given any consideration to exploring the presenting
problems...I can't remember if you told us...with an eye to supporting
whatever exploration your child is feeling he needs to do?

One of the main problems with my son was his complete disregard
for our property. He would lie on the sofa with muddy boots on and
as for the state of his room.........
Well his room was getting to the point where it was beginning to
smell really quite bad, what with the dirt and the unwashed clothes
and all that.
Of course my original response would have been to smack his legs
very hard and send him to bed.
Now I would try and explain how being smelly is unpleasant to others
and possibly bad for your own health.
Once he had been told that others might avoid him because of his
smell he really took notice

Billy Walker:
Do these kids go to public schools?
Do you think their swearing comes from you also?

Your message looks suspiciously like a sock puppet.
Complete with a variation on the bogus cycle of violence.
The US GAO report shot that cycle thing down,
but it is still being printed in every book on
social work. It SOUNDS good, but it's not true.

I also noticed that other people referred to you
using spanking as the first option, and you never
reacted to that. That was another clue.

The fact that has put the huge monkey wrench into
the anti-spanking propaganda and Strauss' misuse of
the stats is the HUGE group of parents who are only
occasional spankers. Anecdotally I would assert
that MOST spanking parents do so only occasionally.

The pretense that spanking parents spank as the
FIRST reaction is generally poppycock.

The anti-spanking zealots pretend that parents
line up their kids for their weekly spanking.

If you're spanking your kids daily or even weekly,
something is wrong and you need help.

It's not working.

But that might conceivably have NOTHING to do
with whether or not you spank, but it might have
more to do with HOW you use it, inconsistency or
other issues.

Nobody ever said that spanking solved every
conceivable problem. It's not magic!

If there was such a thing around I would suggest
that you take a PRO SPANKING parenting class.
The reason that these are extremely rare is because
of POLITICAL and LIABILITY issues, bureaucracy
and the romper room world of know it all social
workers. Just imagine the legal liability if
a Social Worker were to teach proper reasonable
spanking but a student later overdoes it bigtime!

Bloody fist fights (occasionally) between siblings
didn't used to be considered a pathology.
Some theories of parenting even said to stay out of
these fights unless they escalated and began
to happen too often. I don't endorse or shun that.

Almost every old style of parenting would have
involved seeing such a situation as an opportunity
to have some crucial heart to heart talks and work
on bonding the kids together. Emphasizing that they
really NEED each other. Talk about how you all
would feel if one of them was gone forever.
Not with the anger talking, but for real.

If your family has communication, bonding or other
problems making your family dysfunctional, spanking
is not going to solve those other problems!

Most of the MUCH MORE IMPORTANT aspects of parenting
and bonding of a family are probably the same for
both spanking and non-spanking parents, don't you
think?

It can be extremely difficult to find information
on how to spank the RIGHT way, since the Socialist
types have FLOODED the world with anti-spanking
parenting classes. If you call up Child Protection
and ask them what the legal limits to spanking are,
they very likely will NOT TELL YOU. They would
rather have you believe that it is illegal, when
in fact it is legal in all 50 states. Think about
how rotten it is that they won't tell you!

The issue of whether or not YOU choose to spank is
a choice YOU make and I respect that. However, I
suspect even if you change your mind, you might not
like the idea that the anti-spanking zealots wish
to remove that very same right to decide.

That is the only reason I am on the other side.

"Political Correctness" seems to be part of the
mindset of anti-spanking zealots seeking to outlaw
spanking.

If you want to know more about what happens when
LAWS are passed to impose Political Correctness
onto parents, go to
alt.support.child-protective-services
and learn how the hell of CPS micro management
of parents REALLY works.

Having a belief or making a choice is a VERY
different thing than legally IMPOSING that on
everybody around you.

Greg Hanson ) writes:
Your message looks suspiciously like a sock puppet.
Complete with a variation on the bogus cycle of violence.
The US GAO report shot that cycle thing down,
but it is still being printed in every book on
social work. It SOUNDS good, but it's not true.

I'm curious: what statement or statements are you
claiming here to be "not true"? What is the evidence
that they are not true?

The "cycle of violence" I'm familiar with is a useful
model of human interaction. In a very oversimplified
form it could be stated like this: "Parents who spank
generally alternate between brief episodes of spanking
and much longer periods during which spanking does
not occur." This seems obviously true and not
particularly useful perhaps. A slightly more complex
model can be quite useful in thinking about violence.

What statement about a cycle of violence are you
saying is "not true"?
--
Cathy

On 2 Nov 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

Greg Hanson ) writes:
Your message looks suspiciously like a sock puppet.
Complete with a variation on the bogus cycle of violence.
The US GAO report shot that cycle thing down,
but it is still being printed in every book on
social work. It SOUNDS good, but it's not true.

I'm curious: what statement or statements are you
claiming here to be "not true"? What is the evidence
that they are not true?

The "cycle of violence" I'm familiar with is a useful
model of human interaction. In a very oversimplified
form it could be stated like this: "Parents who spank
generally alternate between brief episodes of spanking
and much longer periods during which spanking does
not occur." This seems obviously true and not
particularly useful perhaps. A slightly more complex
model can be quite useful in thinking about violence.

What statement about a cycle of violence are you
saying is "not true"?
--

It is certainly not true in the case of spanking. You
might want to look up the study by Straus on the spanking
rate by ages. He found that the spanking rate peaked at
for the ages of around of 4-5 and dramatically declined
thereafter. This refutes the claim by anti-spanking
zealotS that spanking doesn't work and you have to spank
more and harder each time.

Doan