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#21
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"Wendy Marsden" wrote
And for you examples, you give historical events like the 1918 flu??! You are not making any sense. As an example of something causing starvation that wasn't caused by the government. You have to extrapolate a bit: the 1918 flu was remarkable in how many young and strong men it killed. That left families without their earning power and subsequently one can presume that they went hungry. I'm not claiming it was "mass starvation", but I'd bet my bottom dollar that there was sporadic starvation as a result. There was a Pacific island country that heard of the 1918 flu, and banned all ships from entering its port for a year or until the flu passed. It completely escaped the 1918 flu. Maybe that's an example of a gubmnt safety action that saved lives. |
#22
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
... Roger Schlafly wrote: "Wendy Marsden" wrote Migration, yes. Flu, yes. Unemployment, yes. I've lost track of your point here. People need the safety edicts - the welfare system run by the government - to survive. And people without those benefits died. And for you examples, you give historical events like the 1918 flu??! You are not making any sense. As an example of something causing starvation that wasn't caused by the government. You have to extrapolate a bit: the 1918 flu was remarkable in how many young and strong men it killed. That left families without their earning power and subsequently one can presume that they went hungry. That's a mighty big presumption. Communities--churches, neighbors--tended to look out for "their own." Besides, deaths caused by the flu left a wide-open job market. I'm not claiming it was "mass starvation", but I'd bet my bottom dollar that there was sporadic starvation as a result. It's past time to establish some definitions. There's *hunger* and then there's true *starvation*. I think most would classify as simply hunger that which you've been repeatedly referring to as starvation (and "mass starvation"). From WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University: starvation n 1: a state of extreme hunger resulting from lack of essential nutrients over a prolonged period [syn: famishment] Genuine starvation is very rare; indeed, in US history, I'd say the only true instances of "mass" starvation occurred as a consequence of government policies/agents (as already discussed) or, on a considerably smaller scale, by an absolute inability to escape climatic conditions (e.g., the Donner Party), by force (e.g., someone held captive against his/her will), or by choice (e.g., by elderly persons seeking to hasten their deaths). Hunger (and malnutrition), on the other hand, have always been present, at times (e.g., the Great Depression/Dust Bowl era) simply more prevalent. Hunger--the need for sustenance--is a great motivator; witness the number of hungry who, throughout history, have chosen to relocate in efforts to escape it (about 25% of the population in some hard-hit regions during the "dust bowl" period, IIRC). My own great-grandfather emigrated from County Clare in the 1846 to escape the Irish potato famine; three of his brothers also left, heading separately to Canada, Australia, and South Africa. JG |
#23
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"Naomi Pardue" wrote in message
... People who have to rely on food stamps shouldn't have horses. :-) They should eat their cars! Hehehe... Perhaps they should consider selling (or doing without) all "non-necessities," e.g., second cars, cable/satellite subscriptions, DVD players, second (and 3rd, 4th, 5th?) television sets, home theater equipment, cell phones, enhanced phone services (caller ID, call forwarding, answering services), large pets... and using the proceeds/savings to buy food. JG |
#24
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"CBI" wrote in message
... Ever read The Grapes of Wrath? The Jungle? Citing fiction? Way to go, Chris! g |
#25
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
... [...] Here's another example of immigrent children's deaths. Why is their being immigrants relevant? My three great aunts died at the turn of the century in Hamtramack from food poisoning. (At least that's what I think it was, they called it "summer complaint".) My great-grandfather always, always bitterly blamed being Jewish as the doctor didn't come to their house until it was too late for Sadie, Minnie and Rose. No safety net there. What kind of "safety net" could/would have (possibly) prevented their deaths? I don't see your point. Can you imagine losing your 3, 6 and 10 year old daughters? My grandmother was born after her sisters all died and grew up an only daughter with three ghosts populating her family. I assure you, these people didn't lose their children through Greek-type tragic flaws. Very similar story in my family: My mom's older sister died at 3 (in 1923) from septicemia. Her father (my grandfather) had closed a car door on her thumb. My mom grew up an only child as well. JG |
#26
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message
t... There was a Pacific island country that heard of the 1918 flu, and banned all ships from entering its port for a year or until the flu passed. It completely escaped the 1918 flu. Maybe that's an example of a gubmnt safety action that saved lives. Tick...tock...tick...tock...tick...tock...tick...t ock...waiting for Utz to show up and suggest that this is analogous to mandatory vaccination...tick...tock...tick... |
#27
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
JG wrote:
"CBI" wrote in message ... Ever read The Grapes of Wrath? The Jungle? Citing fiction? Way to go, Chris! g If I recall my high school humanities course correctly (and I might not) Upton Sinclair was a muckracker/journalist who researched the meat-packing industry before writing the Jungle. It was partially responsible for the revisions of meat-packing rules (by the Government). Yes, the immigrant family depicted was fictionalized, but the situations were drawn from reality. Same deal with Grapes of Wrath. They're windows into a world that we don't see from our own eyes. Wendy |
#28
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
JG wrote:
"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message My three great aunts died at the turn of the century in Hamtramack from food poisoning. What kind of "safety net" could/would have (possibly) prevented their deaths? I don't see your point. Better meat-packing plant standards, for one thing. Access to health care (even if poor) for another. They still might have died, but we'll never know because they didn't have clean food or access to doctors. Being immigrants makes them less likely to have access to whatever societal supports *were* in place, that tended to be based on people having known you all your life and your physical location. In other words, "Joe's kid who lives on the old Colson farm" will get neighborly help even from people who don't know one thing more about the guy than that (not even his name) but "the new people who don't talk our language who came from God-knows-where" aren't going to get the same consideration. My great-grandparents were neither poor nor stupid, but they had less access to health care than even poor, stupid immigrants have today. Wendy |
#29
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
JG wrote:
It's past time to establish some definitions. There's *hunger* and then there's true *starvation*. I think most would classify as simply hunger that which you've been repeatedly referring to as starvation (and "mass starvation"). Well, when I referred to mass starvation I meant malnutrition to the point where death resulted from opportunistic diseases. Of course, you can say they died of heart failure if you prefer. The line between hunger, malnutrition and starvation is pretty slim in a kid. Kids are also known for not having the economic ability to migrate in search of better parents. So are we back to saying that the only kids who starved are ones that don't count for some reason? (Like, because you haven't heard their names and don't care about them?) Wendy |
#30
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We survived WITHOUT safety edicts
"Wendy Marsden" wrote
Well, when I referred to mass starvation I meant malnutrition to the point where death resulted from opportunistic diseases. When and where? You have to look pretty hard to find that anywhere in the world today, or in recent history. |
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