Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

"Barbara" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, it IS useless to the extent that there isn't any evidence that
homework before about the 4th grade has a measurable effect on children's
academic progress. The problem is that this doesn't seem to keep teachers
from assigning it, and since it's assigned, one really has to maintain
the
expectation that one's child will do it or else one is sending a very
mixed
message regarding other things the child might also prefer not to do.

Can you please provide a link or other way to access this study that
you cite, and explain the methodology of the control to me? I'm
willing to be convinced that I'm wrong, but I would like to read the
study myself first.

I didn't have a whole lot of time to search around, but I know I've seen
several studies showing no significant effect of homework on performance for
kids in K-2 or K-3. Ericka may have them linked or remember where she found
them, though.

I did find a link to this article which is a review of the studies to date:
http://www.aft.org/parents/k5homework.htm. Notice, however, that the "pro"
argument for elementary homework relies on studies that looked at how
children performed when they had *parent-directed* homework, as opposed to
*school-directed* homework. That, apparently, does make a difference in
outcomes. What doesn't seem to make much of a different in outcomes is the
standard worksheets and similar assignments that are common for kids in the
elementary school population.

Homework has strong positive effects on learning and performance from 6th
grade on up. The evidence that it has much effect on students in earlier
grades is weak. There is a general BELIEF that assigning homework in the
early elementary grades encourages positive work habits which are then
carried into the later grades. In my experience, however, it creates
resistance and burnout in at least as many kids as it helps.
--
Be well, Barbara

In article .com, Barbara
says...


Nan wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Would you sign up to having a teacher *state to the class* "Do thirty minutes of
xx, then yy if you have time, then zz if you still have time. Set a baking
timer and when it goes ding, stop, and hand the result to me."?

If not, you're *not* talking about "1/2 hour".

Banty

"Barbara" wrote in message
oups.com...
Nan wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6?

No.

Age 7?

No.

Even child development specialists who support the idea of regular homework
recommend only about 10 minutes per day per grade, so K and 1st grade
students should do no more than 10 minutes, 2nd graders no more than 20, 3rd
graders no more than 30, and so on.

So, at age 8, a half an hour per day would be "reasonable", but that half an
hour should INCLUDE any assigned reading. In other words, if the child is to
read 20 minutes per day (as my third grader is), then the other work
assigned should take no more than 10 minutes for the average child to
complete. We have been lucky this year in that the assigned homework rarely
takes more than 40 minutes to complete with the reading included, but except
for the reading, it's mostly busywork that I don't think is making any
particular difference in my son's school performance.

Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework?

I would say that homework does not become really valuable until the child is
capable of doing ALL of the following:

1. Reading the instructions for the assignment and interpreting them without
adult assistance.
2. Scheduling and budgeting his/her own time (i.e., able to evaluate the
assignment, determine how long it will take to complete, and set aside the
requisite amount of time an appropriate time of day).
3. Completing the assignment without any significant adult input. Adult
support may be appropriate in some instances, but by and large, homework
ought not be assigned until it is a task the child can reasonably be
expected to complete it without significant parental intervention.

Up until then, it's just more doing what they do in school except with
parents' guidance instead of the teachers', in which case, I say do it in
school!

I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Well, for starters, when the kids are at home, there are MANY more
distractions and other interesting things to do than schoolwork. It is much
easier for children to concentrate on their work when they are in a
classroom with other children who are also working than it is for them to do
so at home where there may be younger siblings interfering (certainly a
problem in our household, though now that the youngest is 3.5 and wants to
do his own "homework", it's getting easier), friends to play with (whose
schedules may mean they do homework at a different time), a TV to watch, a
bike to ride, computer games to play, etc., etc., etc. Getting any
meaningful work done under those conditions is pretty difficult, especially
for young children who are still developing their sense of time and
self-discipline.,

But beyond that, when they get home from school, they've already spent a
significant portion of their day sitting down at desks and writing sentences
or what have you. Many kids are just plain sick of it by the time they get
home, and forcing them to do more of it doesn't improve their feelings about
school. I think homework is valuable when it ADDS something to what the kids
can learn in school. When it's just doing MORE of the same, it seems
redundant to me.
--
Be well, Barbara

"Donna Metler" wrote in message
...
There really isn't all that
much time spent just reading, for example, within a school day. There
certainly isn't the sort of activity which equates to selecting a chapter
book with your child and reading it over a period of time, discussing it
as
you do it.

My son's reading class has been doing just that this year. So far, they've
read _My Father's Dragon_ and _Charlotte's Web_. Of course, we've been
reading chapter books at home as well. (We're currently doing _The Lion, the
Witch, and the Wardrobe_.) But certainly reading and discussing a chapter
book over a period of time is NOT something that is impossible to accomplish
within the school setting.

There's not all that much time spent on the sort of practice
which makes permanent in math either. Most math instruction is more of the
hands-on type.

I'm not sure what you mean here, either. Isn't "hands-on" the only way to
learn math. I mean, one can certainly memorize the multiplication tables or
what have you without doing problems, but in our school that's exactly how
they're getting the kids to memorize the math facts--by doing several drills
per day on them. I'm actually not a fan of these timed tests, partly because
my son's approach to them seems to be not to memorize the FACTS, but to
memorize the order of the correct answers on each sheet (they must get one
sheet correct before going to the next), which defeats the purpose, but it
DOES seem to work well for a fair number of the kids.
--
Be well, Barbara

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Would you sign up to having a teacher *state to the class* "Do thirty minutes of
xx, then yy if you have time, then zz if you still have time. Set a baking
timer and when it goes ding, stop, and hand the result to me."?

If not, you're *not* talking about "1/2 hour".

Banty

I don't have to *sign on* to anything. I'm being told that there are
studies showing that homework is completely inefficacious prior to
middle school. If that's true, I'm with you, and will lead the charge
at One's school to end homework. But while people keep mentioning the
studies, no one seems to have a cite for them.

There's discussion of kids not being *developmentally able* to do
homework before 4th grade. I'd like to understand that, and see the
studies that bear it out, because it makes no sense at all to me.

But I will agree with you -- if homework is supposed to take 30
minutes, and it actually takes 2 hours on a regular basis, then
something needs to be done. Parents need to talk to the teacher about
his/her unrealistic expectations, or about the particular child's
inability to get it done in the expected time (whichever is the case).

Barbara

Banty wrote:
In article .com, Barbara
says...


Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Chookie wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:
SNIP
My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)

Ah, I see your point. Helping a struggling child is abusive. When you
sit down with a child who is having difficulty with a subject, and try
to explain it to him, it's as if you're abusing him. Sitting down and
explaining things to him? No, you can't do that -- its like you're
standing over him with a whip. Playing reinforcing math games with
him? Child abuse. Talking to the teacher about the problem? Drilling
him on memory facts? Abuse, abuse, abuse. We, as parents, are
obligated to sit back. The school will take care of the problem. Or
not. Who knows? But its not OUR role as parents to recognize when our
kids are struggling and to get them help.

Glad to hear that works for you. When my kid struggles, I get him help.
Frankly, I think that walking away from a struggling child is worse
than whipping him. And for the record, I've never hit my kid, and am
categorically opposed to doing so.

Oh calm down. And in all that rigamarole above you didn't offer much past "get
him help".

No, how about YOU offer me an apology. I don't appreciate flaming from
you. You don't agree with me, fine. But suggesting that my helping a
kid who is struggling is like holding a whip over him -- suggesting
that I abuse my child -- is disgusting.

I told you EXACTLY what I did when my kid struggled with arithmetic. I
explained things to him (in addition, that includes using
manipulatives). I played reinforcing math games with him (Hop to 100,
Monopoly Junior, Pizza Fraction Fun, and Math War come to mind, but
there were others, including a couple of computer games that he loved).
I drilled him with flashcards. I talked to his teachers about their
ideas for additional help. Yes, that boils down to *get him help*
What did you expect me to do -- hold a magic wand over his head that
would place facts and comprehension in his head?

When a child takes a long time over a problem, it isn't necessarily because of a
deficit in understanding it. It can be distraction, frustration, fatigue. Or,
in my son's case, relying too long on counting fingers, because he resisted the
tedium of memorization.

But can you say that when a kid takes a long time with a problem, it is
NEVER because of a lack of understanding? But let me point out -- when
it comes to arithmetic, there is no substitute for the tedium of
memorization. Either you know what 7+5 is, or you don't.

Now, tell me, what magic help, what button is there to push, to make him
presto-chango memorize that fact NOW.

What it took was for him to get a bit more down the developmental path and
develop some of that discipline.

Glad to hear that worked out for you. But I wasn't willing to sit on
my hands while my kid fell further and further behind. And I view it
as my job as a parent to help my son develop discipline.

Barbara

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Would you sign up to having a teacher *state to the class* "Do thirty
minutes of
xx, then yy if you have time, then zz if you still have time. Set a
baking
timer and when it goes ding, stop, and hand the result to me."?

If not, you're *not* talking about "1/2 hour".

Banty

I don't have to *sign on* to anything. I'm being told that there are
studies showing that homework is completely inefficacious prior to
middle school. If that's true, I'm with you, and will lead the charge
at One's school to end homework. But while people keep mentioning the
studies, no one seems to have a cite for them.

There's discussion of kids not being *developmentally able* to do
homework before 4th grade. I'd like to understand that, and see the
studies that bear it out, because it makes no sense at all to me.

But I will agree with you -- if homework is supposed to take 30
minutes, and it actually takes 2 hours on a regular basis, then
something needs to be done. Parents need to talk to the teacher about
his/her unrealistic expectations, or about the particular child's
inability to get it done in the expected time (whichever is the case).

Barbara


And when all you get back from the school is, "Well, she should be able
to." -- then what?

You act as though you think I didn't do anything but whine about it. I
did. I spent time with her teachers, I spent time with the principal, I
spent time (and money) on an outside specialist and on evaluation and,
when she was older, some special tutoring. I didn't tell her I thought
it was pointless (and, in fact, when she was younger I hadn't READ the
studies that indicated it was pointless), and I did all of the things
people recommend -- we had a comfortable place, the right supplies, the
right rules in place -- and it was just a constant struggle.

"Developmentally able" is probably the wrong term here. However, some
kids (and my oldest is one of them) just had a horrid time sitting her
butt in a chair for yet MORE time in the evening, and it ended up being
a nightly struggle. I think if there had been no homework in the early
grades -- setting up the struggle -- she'd have been better capable of
learning to do it when she was older. Plus, at the older ages, the
homework tends to be more "different" from what they're already doing at
school.

Someone has pointed you to some citations for the studies. I know what
I've read and heard, and, frankly, am not interested in taking the time
to look them up. Can you find a single study that shows that homework
in the early grades improves learning?
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

But I suppose that if I conveyed the attitude that I believed that the
work was *pointless* or allowed him to continue to play games, attend
extracurricular activities, watch TV, etc when his homework wasn't
completed, he wouldn't do it.

I did none of that when my daughter was 8.

So you have a relatively compliant child who can be reasoned into doing
the right thing. I'm happy for you.

I didn't.

Instead, we ended up with her at the kitchen table (and me sitting
beside her, if that's what she wanted) for HOURS -- and the homework
still not done, and the other kids not getting attention they also
needed.

Eventually, I gave up the fight -- not until she was older than 8, but I
DID give up.

As far as I can tell, the struggle gained us nothing but unpleasantness.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

Nan wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Barbara


Actually, my daughter seldom finished her work in school, either. And
her second grade teacher sent anything she didn't finish at school home
as homework (something I didn't discover until part way through the year
-- I don't know if the teacher deliberately lied to me, but she
certainly misled me about this) -- adding to the amount of homework,
which was already too much.

Her tests showed she was learning the materials just fine. She
routinely did math and reading several grades above where she was, so it
wasn't a question of whether she was learning the material -- rather, it
was a question of whether she was finishing the paper work.

She didn't test out as "gifted", but even if she had, those programs
(where we were) tended to just be more work (and more paperwork) rather
than better work, so I'm not sure it would have helped.

So -- given that there is no indication that homework at these early
grades helps academically, and given that, for at least some percentage
of the kids, the effort to spend yet MORE time sitting in a chair doing
paperwork is an incredible challenge -- can you help ME understand why
some people think it's so important that we ought to give up our family
evenings to the homework gods?

I'd have much rather spent the time playing games with her, or going for
walks, or lots of other things we gave up while we were still trying to
follow the Proper Parenting Program, and get her to do her homework!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not *developmentally
ready* to do a reasonable amount of homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night)
at age 6? Age 7? Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to
develop to do homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few sentences at
school would be developmentally able to sit at a desk and write those
sentences at home. Could you help me to understand how those cognitive
processes differ? I'm struggling to understand this.

Would you sign up to having a teacher *state to the class* "Do thirty
minutes of
xx, then yy if you have time, then zz if you still have time. Set a
baking
timer and when it goes ding, stop, and hand the result to me."?

If not, you're *not* talking about "1/2 hour".

Banty

I don't have to *sign on* to anything. I'm being told that there are
studies showing that homework is completely inefficacious prior to
middle school. If that's true, I'm with you, and will lead the charge
at One's school to end homework. But while people keep mentioning the
studies, no one seems to have a cite for them.

There's discussion of kids not being *developmentally able* to do
homework before 4th grade. I'd like to understand that, and see the
studies that bear it out, because it makes no sense at all to me.

But I will agree with you -- if homework is supposed to take 30
minutes, and it actually takes 2 hours on a regular basis, then
something needs to be done. Parents need to talk to the teacher about
his/her unrealistic expectations, or about the particular child's
inability to get it done in the expected time (whichever is the case).

Barbara


And when all you get back from the school is, "Well, she should be able
to." -- then what?

Speak to the other parents to determine if the other kids really can do
the homework in the time suggested by the teacher on a regular basis.
If not, and the teacher refuses to listen, take it to the principal.
In writing. Then whoever is above the principal. Try to band the
other parents together to say *X time and no more* And if the teacher
says that all of the kids should be able to finish in 30 minutes, you
discover that most kids actually finish in 40-45 minutes, and it takes
your kid 3 hours? Watch her do the homework to see if you can discover
any pattern of problems. (Funny story, or at least I think its funny.
One's second grade teacher was concerned that he was only getting
through a few problems on his timed math quizzes. After a few tries at
figuring it out, I gave him one at home, and asked him to go through
his thought process out loud. Every time, he panicked at the first
problem, and started saying *I can't do it* If I would just say *OK,
then skip it!* He'd suddenly be able to do most of them.) Talk to the
teacher about the problems. Demand an evaluation from the Board of
Education.

You act as though you think I didn't do anything but whine about it. I
did. I spent time with her teachers, I spent time with the principal, I
spent time (and money) on an outside specialist and on evaluation and,
when she was older, some special tutoring. I didn't tell her I thought
it was pointless (and, in fact, when she was younger I hadn't READ the
studies that indicated it was pointless), and I did all of the things
people recommend -- we had a comfortable place, the right supplies, the
right rules in place -- and it was just a constant struggle.

Actually, since I was never aware that your child had trouble in
school, I don't act as if you did anything one way or another. I
wonder whether -- then or now -- she has any insight as to why it was
so difficult for her to focus.

What I'm objecting to is people thowing about unnamed studies. Studies
show kids shouldn't have homework until middle school; they're not
developmentally ready, etc. I'm just asking for a cite.

"Developmentally able" is probably the wrong term here. However, some
kids (and my oldest is one of them) just had a horrid time sitting her
butt in a chair for yet MORE time in the evening, and it ended up being
a nightly struggle. I think if there had been no homework in the early
grades -- setting up the struggle -- she'd have been better capable of
learning to do it when she was older. Plus, at the older ages, the
homework tends to be more "different" from what they're already doing at
school.

And it may well be that you're right about your daughter. That's sadly
one of the problem with schools -- some kids are going to be atypical,
and going to be harmed by practices that help most kids, or don't have
much impact on them either way. (Indeed, we're currently considering
changing One's school because of certain elements about it that others
tout as extremely advantageous. Presumably they are for most kids, but
not for One.) I suppose that's one of the better arguments in favor of
greater school choice.

Someone has pointed you to some citations for the studies. I know what
I've read and heard, and, frankly, am not interested in taking the time
to look them up. Can you find a single study that shows that homework
in the early grades improves learning?
--
Actually, both studies on the page that the person cited said that all
kids should be given homework. Indeed, the paragraph about the *con*
study began by saying something like. *all kids should have homework*
Is that good enough? But, you see, I'm not citing studies. You and
others here are. I don't think it's unreasonable of me to ask for a
cite to them. Without a cite, all of the references to all of these
*studies* just aren't very impressive.

Barbara