Would you spank in this situation?

Doug, You place a great deal of emphasis on the
genetic predisposition to alcoholism.

Aren't those predisposed a MINORITY and for the
MAJORITY wouldn't SOCIAL factors such as
PEER PRESSURE be the main issue?

Hi, Greg,

Alcoholism is a bio-psycho-social disease. All domains are involved, but
the biological, genetic component is a big part of the picture.

And yes, those predisposed to alcoholism represent a decided minority of the
population -- 10%.

Apparently my parents, siblings and I are all not
predisposed to alcoholism, so our biggest
vulnerability was SOCIAL rather than genetic predisposition.

My parents almost never drink and DEMYSTIFIED
liquor for us, teaching moderation.

In your case, it appears that both the biological and social components were
non-alcoholic. Since your parents almost never drank and demonstrated
moderation when they did so, the social domain you were subjected to was one
of moderation.

When I went to college, I was strongly pressured
SOCIALLY to drink liquor, but I was NOT INTERESTED.
In other one on one situations like dating I did
drink minimally for SOCIAL reasons.

Many non-alcoholic people are pressured by peers in college and succumb to
the pressure through binge drinking, etc. It is a common ritual at that
age. However, laking the other components to the disease of alcoholism,
these folks stop drinking in this way when they leave college. These young
people are certainly using alcohol irresponsibly and, at that time, may be
diagnosed as substance abusers, but they are not chemically dependent. An
alcoholic, on the other hand, is dependent on the drug.

I should have made the distinction between chemical abuse and chemical
dependency in my initial post. I apologize for the resulting confusion. My
post concentrated on alcoholism, which involves those who are chemically
dependent upon the drug.

I do not drink liquor at all.
I also don't smoke or do any drugs.

Alcohol effects those who are predisposed to alcoholism in an entirely
different way. They are a different reaction to the drug from the onset.
To them, it goes "BOOM." To those who are not predisposed, it goes "tinkle,
tinkle."

Apparently we disagree about the importance of the
SOCIAL and peer pressure aspects of liquor consumption.

Perhaps. It is more likely we were talking about two different things.
Peer pressure and other elements in the social domain are a big player in
liquor consumption. I agree with your views in this respect. But for the
user to become dependent upon the drug, there are usually contributors from
the biological and psychological domains.

While I must comply with the law, I lament that
parents are no longer allowed to DEMYSTIFY liquor
or teach moderation in this way.

My point was that children learn moderation by observing how their parents
drink. This would certainly be influence in the social domain and very
powerful.

Doug wrote:
Why are you addressing JUST ME, Doug. I am NOT THE one that posted
suggesting that this is a good practice.

Hi, Kane,

...Because you are the one who asked me if I had any thoughts on the
subject.

"Interesting you should pop into this thread at THIS particular
juncture."

"The subject had gone, before this, to the idea of "teaching children to
drink responsibly."

"Any thoughts?"

I gave you my thoughts on the subject.

Nope. You did not. Not on the above, until later...after I asked that
question.

Yep. Now why did you address ONLY me, Doug?

Because only you asked for my thoughts on the subject.

Others brought up the subject, Doug. smile

You appear a bit...how does one say....defensive. g

Really?

To mention others in the thread is defensive?

In fact, I'd say your comment itself with the "g" is exactly that;
defensive.

0:-


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Doug wrote:
Doug, You place a great deal of emphasis on the
genetic predisposition to alcoholism.

Aren't those predisposed a MINORITY and for the
MAJORITY wouldn't SOCIAL factors such as
PEER PRESSURE be the main issue?

Hi, Greg,

Alcoholism is a bio-psycho-social disease. All domains are involved, but
the biological, genetic component is a big part of the picture.

And yes, those predisposed to alcoholism represent a decided minority of the
population -- 10%.

Heck, that's just 30,000,000 people, Greg ... and a lot of them parents.
No reason to get excited and presume that child abuse might just be a
part of the picture, big time.

Naw. 0;-


Apparently my parents, siblings and I are all not
predisposed to alcoholism, so our biggest
vulnerability was SOCIAL rather than genetic predisposition.

My parents almost never drink and DEMYSTIFIED
liquor for us, teaching moderation.

In your case, it appears that both the biological and social components were
non-alcoholic. Since your parents almost never drank and demonstrated
moderation when they did so, the social domain you were subjected to was one
of moderation.

When I went to college, I was strongly pressured
SOCIALLY to drink liquor, but I was NOT INTERESTED.
In other one on one situations like dating I did
drink minimally for SOCIAL reasons.

Many non-alcoholic people are pressured by peers in college and succumb to
the pressure through binge drinking, etc. It is a common ritual at that
age. However, laking the other components to the disease of alcoholism,
these folks stop drinking in this way when they leave college. These young
people are certainly using alcohol irresponsibly and, at that time, may be
diagnosed as substance abusers, but they are not chemically dependent. An
alcoholic, on the other hand, is dependent on the drug.

I should have made the distinction between chemical abuse and chemical
dependency in my initial post. I apologize for the resulting confusion.

Greg, confused? Naw, not Greg. He jumps through your hoops with hardly a
bobble, on schedule.

0:-

My
post concentrated on alcoholism, which involves those who are chemically
dependent upon the drug.

I don't know, Doug. If you aren't a drunk, or if you are, you aren't
authorized to speak on the subject. At least that's the logic Greg has
been following in his posts on other subjects.

Unless someone has been a parent they can't be experts on child
behavior, and yet, if they have been abused as a child they can't be
experts on abuse and child behavior because they are "biased," and
subjective.

You folks crack me up, Doug.

He's been reading you too long and has gone into permanent spin mode.

I do not drink liquor at all.
I also don't smoke or do any drugs.

Alcohol effects those who are predisposed to alcoholism in an entirely
different way. They are a different reaction to the drug from the onset.
To them, it goes "BOOM." To those who are not predisposed, it goes "tinkle,
tinkle."

Is this potty humor?

Apparently we disagree about the importance of the
SOCIAL and peer pressure aspects of liquor consumption.

Perhaps. It is more likely we were talking about two different things.
Peer pressure and other elements in the social domain are a big player in
liquor consumption. I agree with your views in this respect. But for the
user to become dependent upon the drug, there are usually contributors from
the biological and psychological domains.

Usually, Doug. But not always. Where do you come by this special knowledge?

Get enough booze into someone over a long enough period of time and they
can be just as hooked as the bio-psycho domains.

While I must comply with the law, I lament that
parents are no longer allowed to DEMYSTIFY liquor
or teach moderation in this way.

My point was that children learn moderation by observing how their parents
drink. This would certainly be influence in the social domain and very
powerful.

I other words you don't want to go to the area HE is talking about but
dodged when I asked him.

The subject of the thread at the time this issue opened up was having
children drink in moderation with their parents, when the child is very
young.

HE defended it by REFUSING TO DISCUSS THE SUBJECT WHEN I ASKED HIM IF
THAT WAS WHAT HE MEANT...a smart ass retort as I recall, off topic, was
all he'd say.

Now, what is YOUR viewpoint on teaching children moderation by having
them drink with the parents as "The French" and other Europeans do?

And don't give me the bull**** about, "Well, if they are predisposed."

This is RISK QUESTION, and I won't kid you about it. No traps being
laid. I'm asking you out front, do YOU personally and PROFESSIONALLY
think that taking the risk is worth the "moderation" "taught?"

You and Greg both can stop your dodging and weasel dancing now.

0:-

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doug wrote:
Doug, You place a great deal of emphasis on the
genetic predisposition to alcoholism.

Aren't those predisposed a MINORITY and for the
MAJORITY wouldn't SOCIAL factors such as
PEER PRESSURE be the main issue?

Hi, Greg,

Alcoholism is a bio-psycho-social disease. All domains are involved, but
the biological, genetic component is a big part of the picture.

And yes, those predisposed to alcoholism represent a decided minority of the
population -- 10%.

Heck, that's just 30,000,000 people, Greg ... and a lot of them parents.
No reason to get excited and presume that child abuse might just be a
part of the picture, big time.

Naw. 0;-

Well! We can try Prohibition again! ;-)

Doan

I gave you my thoughts on the subject.

Nope. You did not. Not on the above, until later...after I asked that
question.


Hi, Kane,

I only made one post in the thread -- that one answering your question. And
you then replied, why did you answer me?

Now why did you address ONLY me, Doug?

Because only you asked for my thoughts on the subject.

Others brought up the subject, Doug. smile

....Only you asked the question. So I answered it.

I just loved your response, Doug. Your defense of spanking though "I
chose not to spank," argument.

How do you feel about slavery then?

I understand a lot of folks approved that weren't slave holders themselves.

Here's a peach of a story.

And I wonder how you'll excuse parents but not the perps in this case.

I mean, what's the difference, eh?

Why shouldn't any caregiver make their own choice about how to discipline?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...re _children/




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...re _children/

Kane wrote
Why shouldn't any caregiver make their own choice about how to discipline?

A DAY CARE provider??

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 25 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 24 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, dragonsgirl wrote:

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
Kane wrote
Just for fun check out the alcoholism rates for France sometime, dummy.
1. The USA is not France.
No kidding?

2. Are statistics more important than a parents right to teach as they
see fit?
You pointed out that giving wine to kids is done often in France, he pointed
out that the stats for alocoholism in France may be high.
Common practice vs Negative outcome.
Make sense?

Except that he might be lying, as usual. Why don't you look up the stats
and see if Kane is telling the truth? Here is my simple search using
google:

Alcoholism in Western Europe (Extrapolated Statistics)
Britain (United Kingdom) 3,345,910 60,270,708 for UK2
Belgium 574,481 10,348,2762
France 3,354,432 60,424,2132
Ireland 220,368 3,969,5582
Luxembourg 25,686 462,6902
Monaco 1,791 32,2702
Netherlands (Holland) 905,900 16,318,1992
United Kingdom 3,345,910 60,270,7082
Wales 161,991 2,918,0002

Wanna look up the stats for good old USA? ;-)
Why no source cite and link, Monkeyboy?

0:-

What? Can't use that "formidable research skill" of yours, Neverspanked
boy? ;-)
Your source is not my homework, boy.

Provide it or be seen again, as wearing no clothes and flinging ****.

0:-

Hihihi! **** coming out of your mouth again!

Compared to the fact YOU did not prove that the French have overcome the
drunkenness problem by "teaching" their children how to drink responsibly.

R R R R R R R

Nice try! I've never claimed that, STUPID!


Doan

I see you still won't provide a citation for your source.

What are you afraid of?

Where your citation for the French drunkenness problem, the New England
Journal of Medicine? ;-)

AF
No i would never hit my children i think spanking is wrong and think
that this was sutible punishment

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 25 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 24 Aug 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, dragonsgirl wrote:

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...
Kane wrote
Just for fun check out the alcoholism rates for France sometime, dummy.
1. The USA is not France.
No kidding?

2. Are statistics more important than a parents right to teach as they
see fit?
You pointed out that giving wine to kids is done often in France, he pointed
out that the stats for alocoholism in France may be high.
Common practice vs Negative outcome.
Make sense?

Except that he might be lying, as usual. Why don't you look up the stats
and see if Kane is telling the truth? Here is my simple search using
google:

Alcoholism in Western Europe (Extrapolated Statistics)
Britain (United Kingdom) 3,345,910 60,270,708 for UK2
Belgium 574,481 10,348,2762
France 3,354,432 60,424,2132
Ireland 220,368 3,969,5582
Luxembourg 25,686 462,6902
Monaco 1,791 32,2702
Netherlands (Holland) 905,900 16,318,1992
United Kingdom 3,345,910 60,270,7082
Wales 161,991 2,918,0002

Wanna look up the stats for good old USA? ;-)
Why no source cite and link, Monkeyboy?

0:-

What? Can't use that "formidable research skill" of yours, Neverspanked
boy? ;-)
Your source is not my homework, boy.

Provide it or be seen again, as wearing no clothes and flinging ****.

0:-

Hihihi! **** coming out of your mouth again!

Compared to the fact YOU did not prove that the French have overcome the
drunkenness problem by "teaching" their children how to drink responsibly.

R R R R R R R

Nice try! I've never claimed that, STUPID!


Doan

I see you still won't provide a citation for your source.

What are you afraid of?

Where your citation for the French drunkenness problem, the New England
Journal of Medicine? ;-)
I think parents should always try to find a substitute to spanking
their children

AF

Greegor wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...re _children/

Kane wrote
Why shouldn't any caregiver make their own choice about how to discipline?

A DAY CARE provider??

Oh, then there's something so special about spanking that it should be
prohibited?

What might that be?

After all, if the child were sick wouldn't you want the provider to use
good judgement and deliver the child to a health professional for
treatment?

0:-