| Law Firm joins pro bono effort to reform foster care

(Beth) wrote in message . com...
Kane:

HSLDA is the best defense for homeschooling parents.

It is one defense. Whether it is BEST or not is open to
interpretation. You might be led to believe that by their very
skillful PR designed web site. Much of what they fail to clarify about
their support of homeschooling, for instance, is disputed and resented
by those homeschoolers that were the pioneers that took the big risks,
stood up in leglatures across this country and declare themselves not
in compliance with onerous homeschool restricting laws. I don't think
HSLDA ever did that, but can be corrected if I am wrong.

The folks I refer to risked jail, fines, even the loss of their
children. I think I can understand an sympathize with their view of
HSLDA's contribution.

For me that brings into strong question if HSLDA is the best for
homeschoolers, or is it in fact just the best for HSLDA.

What is a homeschooler to do when CAS (or CPS) takes his
kids? Scanning the yellow pages for lawyers will only
get some mercenary soul who will soak the family for as
much money as possible before possibly getting the kids
back. Or maybe not back.

There are attorneys that specialize in family law right in one's area
that are very very familiar with local CPS and very familiar with that
state's child welfare laws.

Anyone that has the time and money to look at preemptive offerings
such as HSLDA certainly has time and money to look up local
attornies...and do so before the fact. Your argument fails on
comparison with the real world.

I could just as well recommend that a family chose NOW before a visit
from CPS that local court room experienced up-on-local-law attorney.
And I can assure you there are lawyers, some who I know, that
homeschool their children, and make it a point themselves to know law
related to family and homeschooling issues.

I know some very very well, so close I can touch them when I want.

HSLDA is run by religious zealots who are dedicated to a
cause.

I'm not going to argue with that. Did you blow out the attributes on
something I said or did you really say that?

I have not heard of a family who relied on HSLDA
and lost their children.

I can claim I'm great at the hundred yard dash if I get to pick those
that will run against me.

HSLDA says right in their promotional pages that they have the right
to pick and choose. They are NOT a legal insurance company. They say
so themselves, if you read with just a bit of attention.

The religious tone turns off
many parents, but it is really the only good defense.

What, religion? That's a crock. HSLDA? I can't believe you believe
that. I know and can contact, with different degrees of intimacy,
thousands of secular homeschooling families and their children. They
have little to no trouble with CPS or the schools when they take the
trouble to know the law and their rights educationally and as parents.
And they use other legal resources quite successfully, sometimes even
when they are guilty of sin as charged.

I don't know why I have this errie feeling, but I feel my local
attorney would be much more likely to take a case with a guilty or
hard to clear client than HSLDA would who is not on retainer or
receiving the fees the local attorney commands.

You gets what you pays for.

I
am a member, and I recommend membership to every other
homeschooling family, even those who are not religious.

That's laudible that you have been preemtive, and proactive. But
recommending this organization to everyone suggests strongly that it's
the "best" way to go, that is illogical on it's face. There are at
least two other good choices. One is to hire local. Your information
about local choices is NOT acceptable, and sounds much more like the
usual rant against attorneys that is false.

The other is to join your state or local or even national
homeschooling organization and see if the offer legal insurance...the
company MUST represent you...may HS organizations now DO offer such
group coverage.

Next time you need a local attorney call HSLDA and watch them stop
after the initial contact in nearly all cases. I appears to me they
take cases that make them look good because of the greater likelihood
they'll win. There perogative of course, but NOT one that attracts me
to them particularly.

When the tough out some really bad losses get back to me. That is what
local attorneys do all the damn time.

A local attorney, like a local mechanic, that screws up your case or
your car has a far greater risk of running him or herself out of
business over time.

While I am perfectly happy to recommend HSLDA for those that think
they will fit their needs better, and more especially that are
fundamentalist Christians, I am also perfectly happy and safe in my
knowledge recommending that one take a good hard look at local
attorneys or actual group legal insurance.

I have seen them not only get children back PDQ with that one phone
call number everyone seems to think is the miracle invention of HSLDA
(my attorney is on speed dial as yours should be), but then come back
and sue successfully...well, since it was settled out of court damn
near everytime I kind of tend to assume their's was a successful
outcome....the client was under one of those, "cannot disclose the
settlement terms," restrictions, and you gottah know what that means.


Robert T McQuaid
Orangeville Ontario Canada
Love does not come out of the barrel of a gun

*****************************


Kane: I agree with Robert -- HSLDA membership allows families to have
an attorney "on retainer",

It does no such thing. You did not read their terms closely enough.
They have the right to turn you down. You did NOT buy, unless things
changed with them in the last couple of weeks since I last checked,
legal insurance.

At the most you bought a phone call contact, and I don't believe you
can hold them to that even (which isn't legal representation..they are
not officers of the court/members of the bar/licensed in your state
unless they are and YOU should find that out, PDQ).

And you should also see if any complaints have been lodged against
them in your state with the bar association. It's your right to ask
and to know.

You should do that just like you would a local attorney, or your
doctor with the medical association in your state.

at an affordable price, who is educated as
to CPS issues/tactics, as well as the legal rights of those who are
the subjects of CPS investigations.

This nonsense that you can't find a lawyer in your own area that has
such qualifications is bull.

I have never had trouble finding one and know one very well, and she
knows others, as I do. I've been in meeting rooms with a dozen CPS
opposing attorneys at a time arguing about the subject of openness in
adoption issues on one occasion and other subjects at other times, and
to a man or women they were formidable people for CPS to come up
against and had a record of wins. Some were even criminal attorneys
for the more severe cases.

I know a very successful death sentence attorney that is entertaining
semi retirement and taking some family law cases just for the pleasure
of it. Now if she does that, she is moving to the top of the speed
dial list on a lot of my friends phonse.

And CPS would be well advised to start grooming their heaviest hitters
if she is going to go into family even as a sideline in retirement.
Brrrr...Bad JUJU for CPS...r r r r

I have heard over the years of a
significant number of cases in which an HSLDA attorney convinced a CPS
worker to discontinue the investigation of a family before the CPS
worker ever got in the front door, which is ALWAYS the best way to
work things.

I have zero argument with that. I would say exactly the same thing if
asked.

I would add, however, that I know of law firms in my state and
neighboring states that can say exactly the same thing. And it's a lot
more than several.

You can call them, they will get on the hook with the instigator and
they will end the encounter right there. They usually invite the
worker to come back with a warrant and they'll come right over in the
meantime while the worker is traveling. Sometimes they'll come right
now, PDQ even before they ask for a warrant to be presented. But most
won't waste their or the workers time. They request a warrant straight
up.

They then get in their Beamer and toddle on over in the odd chance the
worker will be successful and if they are a smart attorney they will
ask you what you think triggered the visit and they will have on
retainer, an investigator, usually an old CPS worker to do some
digging for you if you wish the expense.

Don't sell local attorneys short. If you got the money they can be
very good and do things HSLDA can't for lack of locus.

Unless you live in Virginia or nearby you aren't going to get an HSLDA
attorney to meet the worker on your doorstep to examine a warrant.

I'd suggest folks think very carefully about that. The dollars you pay
for membership (which is questionable in that you have no vote as to
the board of directors and you are NOT consulted on HSLDA policy
matters such as what they do or don't lobby for before the fact or
which cases they will take) do not all go back to services to members.

Some of it may well be spent to lobby for something I find
particularly odious...the incursion of theologically based influence
into the body politic.

If you don't think they are pushing for religious solutions to
political problems then they aren't Christians, well, not the fundy
kind.

HSLDA also publicizes its successes against CPS, which
no doubt makes CPS less willing to get involved with marginal cases in
which the parents are HSLDA members, lest negative publicity result.

Everyone at CPS around this land knows which local attorneys have
beaten them and what kind of cases they win on. The exact same kinds
of considerations are taken for local attorneys, and by the way, HSLDA
doesn't even faze CPS. To them it's another crack pot organiation with
very limited success.

They have plenty of attorneys of their own to go up against HSLDA. In
fact it could well trigger your local CPS calling the state AG's
office and asking for then to serve on the case. And they do, when
they think it's warranted.

I don't know about you, but I assume when the AG sends an AAG to work
on a case all that computer power, all that support staff, all that
law clerk on practicum that can research is a mighty big monster to go
up against. I'd rather not excite CPS into calling out the big guns,
if you don't mind.

So tell me, if HSLDA takes a case are there no further charges for
legal work?
Does that suggest to you any obligation at all on their part? That you
can hold them to?

If I were them, I'd cherry pick for PR everytime, before I invested
the time of my staff and lawyers in a case, and I'd want very badly to
win. So tell me, do you think you'll win in the luck of THAT draw?

An attorney chosen from the phone book AFTER the kiddies are in foster
care is going to involve very significant legal bills, and due to the
CPS penchant for obtaining continuance after continuance, may not
ultimately result in the release of the children any sooner than they
would have been released otherwise.

HSLDA takes the cases they choose. Ask them. You could still find
yourself having to shop locally and pay huge fees. Do your shopping
now.

This is true even if the attorney
is quite experienced with CPS cases, and even more true if the
attorney only has general experience in "family law," etc., and gets
flim-flammed by CPS.

Then pick an attorney that knows their stuff. That is true in any
legal matters. And family law attorneys with CPS experience don't get
"flim-flammed" very often by CPS. In fact it tends to be the other way
around.

And judges in family court know what they are up against when they
have a local attorney with expertise. Theh tend to chuckle when an out
of towner firms shows up. Such outfits usually have a local licensed
attorney as the front, with them "assisting." Do you see that as the
most viable of choices?

Ask yourself, is HSLDA licensed to practice in your state? Find out
how many cases and of what kind they have taken in your area and the
win to loss ratio.

AS the saying goes, you pay for what you get. Or is it you get what
you pay for?

And just like you I'd say do it ahead of time. I did that about auto
matters. And sure enough some half light ass**** on a cell phone did
an unannounced left turn into me as I was oncoming. That shoulder
still hurts, but he didn't get out of paying for it. My attorney drove
to the crash site and consulted with me and the cop on scene and the
dru...the poor man in the other car, and that settled that right
there. He got the insurance company phone number and stood in the
street doing the settlement for me. Describing the scene he was
photographing. Now that's some attorney. And he really wasn't all that
expensive. Contingency and a few bucks.

Many parents who can afford the fees for HSLDA
could NEVER come up with a $10,000 to $25,000 retainer, and even if
they could,

What possible difference can that make unless you have legal
insurance, and HSLDA is NOT legal insurance.

legal representation which takes several days to arrange
will not prevent children from being taken to foster care in the first
place.

If you buy an HSLDA membership ahead of time how would that differ or
be superior to having a local attorney on your speed dail that you've
done one of the freebie one time consulations with? HSLDA isn't going
to know your situation ahead of time as the local attorney does. Ask
HSLDA to keep a statement from on your concerns, with lists of people
to contact, relatives to place children with, etc, and see what answer
you get.

Ask your own attorney (and they aren't going to ask for a retainer,
just a sensible fee) to store such information and see what you get.
My bet it's a "NO!" in the HSLDA case, and a "Yes mamm" in the latter,
local attorney case.

Where is that size retainer you claim being asked for in a civil
family court case? Hell, they take them on contingency here if they
think a valid countersuit will ensue.

How does HSLDA insure less chance of the child being taken into foster
care that a local attorney can't take care of as well. In fact they
can meet the worker on your porch if you know what you are doing. Ask
HSLDA if they will have a licensed attorney in your state on your
doorstep if CPS shows up.

Your local attorney can be having his staff calling your relatives to
come for the kids before the warrant returns from the judge. Wanna bet
if HSLDA will do that?

I knew that HSLDA was run by Christians, but I wasn't aware that they
required any sort of profession of faith in order to join.

They had to drop it. A lot of squawking went up from the HS community
about it.
There is still a very large faction in homeschooling that doesn't have
your level of devotion to HSLDA. You should google them up and read a
few things. Try "HSLDA" + Mary McCarthy. It'll wow yah.

I'm sure
that it is true that HSLDA doesn't even consider providing full-blown
legal representation of members unless it is thought that a precedent
benefitting large numbers of home schoolers will result.

Do you realize what you just said? It translates like this: "I want
the state to take my children while I use my energies to support all
those families that MIGHT get their children taken."

If they are at your door YOU are in it up to your neck like it or not.
You don't have the time or the resources to risk your children by
being noble and saintly.

I forget if you are a regular here, but that has been my argument for
ages. Do NOT if CPS is involved and especially if your children are in
custody, spend your energy on the big fight against CPS. That's for
the political arm of whatever anti CPS group you favor to take care of
those issues.

If your case goes bad and goes public your attorney won't unless it
would jeopordize your case resist that. Good for business.

Your job is to buckle down and find what will work for you in your
specfic case. I absolutely HATE that argument because it has proven
itself to lose children to the system when that shouldn't have
happened.

I've brought up the spector of the Brain and Ruth Christine case
repeatedly here, and the counter arguments suck. They got involved
with folks that gave them that routine about fighting the state for
the good of all and the assurance that you'll get your kids back if
you are just stubborn and resistant enough and STAND ON YOUR RIGHTS.

The state had an orginal plan, if they are to be believed, to return
the children. The return formerly starved and skull fractured kids to
the parent all the time when the parents get with the program...but
no, not in this case. The Christines were convinced that there was a
higher calling of PROTECTION OF RIGHTS. When a half blind idiot could
see they were sunk in the charges: doctors, nurses, cops, had all
testified to the facts that spelled abuse and neglect. Now right or
wrong, true or false, the kids were gonna go if the Christines fought,
and would have come back to them had they been sensible and gotten
some good advice instead of the crap heaped on them by those that
didn't give a whit for them.

That followed out to one possible conclusion not in the best interests
of anyone, and he's damn lucky he didn't get his elbow jarred or have
a worker go into heart failure while he pointed his pistol at them and
kidnapped his children from the legal assigned custody of the state of
Oregon.

Such thinking as you just put forth failed them utterly and they are
both in jail and their children will grown out of their childhood
without Ruth and Brian and I think the blame goes directly to the
folks that gave them the advice you do. A careful reading of the case
makes it damn clear they were guilty as charged, or so the judge
thought, on the issues of abuse and negect.

Hell, even if they had lost their kids orginally after jumping through
hoops Ruths parents were in the loop for the placement. The state even
followed through afterward and placed them with both grandparents.

Given that outcome, they needed, from the getgo, legal assistance that
was focused on their case, not on the good of the horde.

I would
guess that a diligent effort is made to disclose the limits of
"coverage" to those who join, although there will always be idiots who
think that they are entitled to unlimited Perry Mason-caliber services
no matter how modest the membership fee is.

Let me put it this way. If you want to join a lobbying group with a
non voting privelege and the off chance you can use them in your state
for legal assistance and even representation should you draw the lucky
number, be my guest, but have something in reserve for the real fight
locally.

Talk to a family law attorney in your area, if you feel threatned by
CPS and want to plan. They can tell you what works in their area and
what they are willing to set up with you to curtail CPS
investigations. And they are CLOSE BY AT ALL TIMES.

If I homeschooled, I
would join HSLDA,

As I said, if it's for the feel good parts, be my guest. Be sure they
are working toward goals you understand and support and believe are in
your and your family's best interests. But don't count on them as your
sole source for issues with CPS should that confront you at some time.

Do you really believe that everytime CPS showed up at an HSLDA members
doorstep HSLDA was successful in running them off? The wins are
posted, the losses as in the rest of the real world, are dropped on
the floor out of sight. Just human nature. No fault.

and like Robert, I would encourage anyone eligible
for membership to join even if their own religious or philosophical
beliefs differed markedly from those of the leadership of the HSLDA.

I would not.

You are making the assumption they are like non-theopolitical
christians. I think you would be making a serious mistake to assume
they will not continue to lobby for goals that do not respect the
separation of church and state we all think we have a right to.

If you believe in a theocracy, then be my guest. I can't know their
goals but I can look at their history, the recent very high level
encursion they have made into this administration's agencies and
speculate for my own decision making.

I won't join. It's not in what I calculate as my best interest. You
join if you think it is in yours.

Kane