Fathers the key to child behavior

"Lee" wrote in message
m...
"Tiffany" wrote in message
...
"Lee" wrote in message
m...
"Tiffany" wrote in message
...
That is an ancient argument.

Still valid, as well.

If that were the case, everyone could say to
those paying tons of support to greedy women that THEY asked for is
also
as
they had sex with the greedy women.

This is a Red Herring.
The logical result of any fertile heterosexual couple having serial
unprotected sex is going to be a pregnancy.

Therefore she chose poorly, as the result *will always be* a
pregnancy.

She choose poorly, he choose poorly.

His poor choice was to get married. To anyone. In the current legal
and political climate.

Human nature also dictates that no
human is perfect, therefor not perfect in its choses.

True, however current law makes marriage a very very bad business
decision for Anglo-men. There was always the risk of not succeeding.
What has changed is now the man is viewed as a wallet and sperm donor.
This attitude was not prevalent prior to 1965.

So don't get married and don't produce children. Thjis is a new generation,
educate men so they know what can happen.



The logical result of any fertile heterosexual couple marrying is
*not* tons of support to greedy women. This result is due to the
currect C$ laws in the mostly Anglo-West. This can change. Human
biology cannot.

Human biology doesn't need to change, the way couples act when faced
with
disicions that should be based on the needs of children DO NEED TO
CHANGE.

The laws that curently favor women need to change.

No the way two humans treat each other need to change. Though I don't agree
with the laws and have said so, individuals need to make change by being
humane. The total blame can't be placed on the laws.




The result *will not always be* a divorce and CPS CS payments.
Laws and sexist attitudes make it so, not a man's poor choice.

When a divorce happens, it is the act of one of those persons to use the
law
to the best of interests. IF one isn't greedy, they won't feel the need
to
use those laws.

Fascinating. You equate best of interests to greed.

For some women, THAT is what is in the best interest of the children. I know
some women are greedy in their demands while some need the law in order to
get SOMETHING. Not all men want to continue to help children. Not all men
care about what is good for the kids. Its not always the women who is the
bad person.





In 1940 (100b.c., etc...) the logical result of any fertile
heterosexual couple having serial unprotected sex was going to be a
pregnancy.

In 1940 (100b.c., etc...) the logical result of any fertile
heterosexual couple marrying *was not* tons of support to greedy
women.

The laws have changed since 1970. Human biology has not.

You assume female greed when a man pays CS. Interesting assumption,
coming from a(n apparent) woman.

I assume nothing, I am basing that statement on the millions of posts on
this newsgroup about greedy women.

Behavior which current divorce laws enable.
Change the law, and women will stop behaving so poorly.

Yes, only women behave poorly. This gets old you know.

T

"Lee" wrote in message
m...
"Tiffany" wrote in message
...
"Lee" wrote in message
m...
"Tiffany" wrote in message
...
That is an ancient argument.

Still valid, as well.

If that were the case, everyone could say to
those paying tons of support to greedy women that THEY asked for is
also
as
they had sex with the greedy women.

This is a Red Herring.
The logical result of any fertile heterosexual couple having serial
unprotected sex is going to be a pregnancy.

Therefore she chose poorly, as the result *will always be* a
pregnancy.

She choose poorly, he choose poorly.

His poor choice was to get married. To anyone. In the current legal
and political climate.

Human nature also dictates that no
human is perfect, therefor not perfect in its choses.

True, however current law makes marriage a very very bad business
decision for Anglo-men. There was always the risk of not succeeding.
What has changed is now the man is viewed as a wallet and sperm donor.
This attitude was not prevalent prior to 1965.

So don't get married and don't produce children. Thjis is a new generation,
educate men so they know what can happen.



The logical result of any fertile heterosexual couple marrying is
*not* tons of support to greedy women. This result is due to the
currect C$ laws in the mostly Anglo-West. This can change. Human
biology cannot.

Human biology doesn't need to change, the way couples act when faced
with
disicions that should be based on the needs of children DO NEED TO
CHANGE.

The laws that curently favor women need to change.

No the way two humans treat each other need to change. Though I don't agree
with the laws and have said so, individuals need to make change by being
humane. The total blame can't be placed on the laws.




The result *will not always be* a divorce and CPS CS payments.
Laws and sexist attitudes make it so, not a man's poor choice.

When a divorce happens, it is the act of one of those persons to use the
law
to the best of interests. IF one isn't greedy, they won't feel the need
to
use those laws.

Fascinating. You equate best of interests to greed.

For some women, THAT is what is in the best interest of the children. I know
some women are greedy in their demands while some need the law in order to
get SOMETHING. Not all men want to continue to help children. Not all men
care about what is good for the kids. Its not always the women who is the
bad person.





In 1940 (100b.c., etc...) the logical result of any fertile
heterosexual couple having serial unprotected sex was going to be a
pregnancy.

In 1940 (100b.c., etc...) the logical result of any fertile
heterosexual couple marrying *was not* tons of support to greedy
women.

The laws have changed since 1970. Human biology has not.

You assume female greed when a man pays CS. Interesting assumption,
coming from a(n apparent) woman.

I assume nothing, I am basing that statement on the millions of posts on
this newsgroup about greedy women.

Behavior which current divorce laws enable.
Change the law, and women will stop behaving so poorly.

Yes, only women behave poorly. This gets old you know.

T

The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?





"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message hlink.net...
"AZ Astrea" wrote in message
...

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Geez, just noticed the cross post on my earlier response. Before
anybody
gets all up in arms at the idea that I'd ask about kids whose fathers
are
less than sterling, I'd like to point out that this was intended as a
legitimate question (which would have been understood in the one group
on
this distribution list that I normally post to). There seem to be a lot
of
studies on the negative effect on kids of having less contact with a
parent
after a divorce - but this always seems to refer to kids who actually
had
a
significant relationship with both parents before the divorce. My "What
about those kids whose fathers didn't pay attention to them *before* the
divorce?" question was referring to those kids who, well, didn't have a
significant relationship with both parents before the divorce. I don't
think I've ever seen a study on the effect of divorce on those kids, and
wondered if there are any such studies.
--------------------
I don't know about any studies but in my case my dad was away from home a
lot and when he was home he had no idea what to do with two kids. He
never
wanted kids but followed the script and had them anyway. He was never
abusive to us he just didn't know how to act around us.
After the divorce, once or twice a year my mom would drive to his place,
(couple hours away), and drop us off. It put him on the spot but he tried
his best. When I was a teenager I spent a few days with him and while he
was still unsure about it we got along well mainly because I was able to
have 'adult' discourse with him.
He remarried to a very strong, family-oriented woman who was finally able
to
bring him out and he became a very loving grandad. As an adult I spent
more
time with him and we got to know each other and to like and love each
other.
He just had no use for kids.
So I think a lot of the time dads don't pay as much attention to the kids
is
because they are working long hours or they have no idea what to do with
them.

I don't want to dilute anything you said about your personal situation and
relationship with your dad. However, there is another factor that comes
into play many times. Mothers can be very critical of dads trying to parent
children. They resent intrusion by fathers into an area they consider a
woman's protected domain. In fact, some mothers are threatened emotionally
by fathers trying to parent. The end result is the mothers drive fathers
away and are extremely critical of everything fathers attempt to do, until
the fathers give up.

The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?





"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message hlink.net...
"AZ Astrea" wrote in message
...

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Geez, just noticed the cross post on my earlier response. Before
anybody
gets all up in arms at the idea that I'd ask about kids whose fathers
are
less than sterling, I'd like to point out that this was intended as a
legitimate question (which would have been understood in the one group
on
this distribution list that I normally post to). There seem to be a lot
of
studies on the negative effect on kids of having less contact with a
parent
after a divorce - but this always seems to refer to kids who actually
had
a
significant relationship with both parents before the divorce. My "What
about those kids whose fathers didn't pay attention to them *before* the
divorce?" question was referring to those kids who, well, didn't have a
significant relationship with both parents before the divorce. I don't
think I've ever seen a study on the effect of divorce on those kids, and
wondered if there are any such studies.
--------------------
I don't know about any studies but in my case my dad was away from home a
lot and when he was home he had no idea what to do with two kids. He
never
wanted kids but followed the script and had them anyway. He was never
abusive to us he just didn't know how to act around us.
After the divorce, once or twice a year my mom would drive to his place,
(couple hours away), and drop us off. It put him on the spot but he tried
his best. When I was a teenager I spent a few days with him and while he
was still unsure about it we got along well mainly because I was able to
have 'adult' discourse with him.
He remarried to a very strong, family-oriented woman who was finally able
to
bring him out and he became a very loving grandad. As an adult I spent
more
time with him and we got to know each other and to like and love each
other.
He just had no use for kids.
So I think a lot of the time dads don't pay as much attention to the kids
is
because they are working long hours or they have no idea what to do with
them.

I don't want to dilute anything you said about your personal situation and
relationship with your dad. However, there is another factor that comes
into play many times. Mothers can be very critical of dads trying to parent
children. They resent intrusion by fathers into an area they consider a
woman's protected domain. In fact, some mothers are threatened emotionally
by fathers trying to parent. The end result is the mothers drive fathers
away and are extremely critical of everything fathers attempt to do, until
the fathers give up.

The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?





"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message hlink.net...
"AZ Astrea" wrote in message
...

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Geez, just noticed the cross post on my earlier response. Before
anybody
gets all up in arms at the idea that I'd ask about kids whose fathers
are
less than sterling, I'd like to point out that this was intended as a
legitimate question (which would have been understood in the one group
on
this distribution list that I normally post to). There seem to be a lot
of
studies on the negative effect on kids of having less contact with a
parent
after a divorce - but this always seems to refer to kids who actually
had
a
significant relationship with both parents before the divorce. My "What
about those kids whose fathers didn't pay attention to them *before* the
divorce?" question was referring to those kids who, well, didn't have a
significant relationship with both parents before the divorce. I don't
think I've ever seen a study on the effect of divorce on those kids, and
wondered if there are any such studies.
--------------------
I don't know about any studies but in my case my dad was away from home a
lot and when he was home he had no idea what to do with two kids. He
never
wanted kids but followed the script and had them anyway. He was never
abusive to us he just didn't know how to act around us.
After the divorce, once or twice a year my mom would drive to his place,
(couple hours away), and drop us off. It put him on the spot but he tried
his best. When I was a teenager I spent a few days with him and while he
was still unsure about it we got along well mainly because I was able to
have 'adult' discourse with him.
He remarried to a very strong, family-oriented woman who was finally able
to
bring him out and he became a very loving grandad. As an adult I spent
more
time with him and we got to know each other and to like and love each
other.
He just had no use for kids.
So I think a lot of the time dads don't pay as much attention to the kids
is
because they are working long hours or they have no idea what to do with
them.

I don't want to dilute anything you said about your personal situation and
relationship with your dad. However, there is another factor that comes
into play many times. Mothers can be very critical of dads trying to parent
children. They resent intrusion by fathers into an area they consider a
woman's protected domain. In fact, some mothers are threatened emotionally
by fathers trying to parent. The end result is the mothers drive fathers
away and are extremely critical of everything fathers attempt to do, until
the fathers give up.

Thoughts? I'll tell you the same thing I told the last guy I worked with
that complained about having to pay support ( and I don't mean the abusive
support or collection systems ).
"Pay your support and be proud that you can. It's hard enough for your
kid, and you'd be ****ed if your ex withheld her support. You kid will still
love you, regardless where they are, because you are their dad. Try not to
miss any birthdays or special events and last but not least "Smile"....those
are the things the kids remember".
Yes, it's damned painful. Yes, it's a pain in the ass, but it isn't your
kids fault.

What we really need to do is make the system work the same way for both
genders ( it's getting there, just not fast enough ), and bust the system of
abuse that is being leveled on ONE gender alone. ( I'm gonna get flamed for
that ). The system is broke...and it needs a serious fixing.

"justanotherdad" wrote in message
m...
The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?

Thoughts? I'll tell you the same thing I told the last guy I worked with
that complained about having to pay support ( and I don't mean the abusive
support or collection systems ).
"Pay your support and be proud that you can. It's hard enough for your
kid, and you'd be ****ed if your ex withheld her support. You kid will still
love you, regardless where they are, because you are their dad. Try not to
miss any birthdays or special events and last but not least "Smile"....those
are the things the kids remember".
Yes, it's damned painful. Yes, it's a pain in the ass, but it isn't your
kids fault.

What we really need to do is make the system work the same way for both
genders ( it's getting there, just not fast enough ), and bust the system of
abuse that is being leveled on ONE gender alone. ( I'm gonna get flamed for
that ). The system is broke...and it needs a serious fixing.

"justanotherdad" wrote in message
m...
The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?

Thoughts? I'll tell you the same thing I told the last guy I worked with
that complained about having to pay support ( and I don't mean the abusive
support or collection systems ).
"Pay your support and be proud that you can. It's hard enough for your
kid, and you'd be ****ed if your ex withheld her support. You kid will still
love you, regardless where they are, because you are their dad. Try not to
miss any birthdays or special events and last but not least "Smile"....those
are the things the kids remember".
Yes, it's damned painful. Yes, it's a pain in the ass, but it isn't your
kids fault.

What we really need to do is make the system work the same way for both
genders ( it's getting there, just not fast enough ), and bust the system of
abuse that is being leveled on ONE gender alone. ( I'm gonna get flamed for
that ). The system is broke...and it needs a serious fixing.

"justanotherdad" wrote in message
m...
The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?

"John Riggs" wrote in message
ws.com...
Thoughts? I'll tell you the same thing I told the last guy I worked
with
that complained about having to pay support ( and I don't mean the
abusive
support or collection systems ).
"Pay your support and be proud that you can.

Yeah right...............be proud you are being financially raped?

It's hard enough for your
kid,

Then it is the CP's fault

and you'd be ****ed if your ex withheld her support.

Nope

You kid will still
love you, regardless where they are, because you are their dad.

Had your head buried in the sand that long?

Try not to
miss any birthdays or special events and last but not least
"Smile"....those
are the things the kids remember".

You are assuming that the CP even allows you that


Yes, it's damned painful. Yes, it's a pain in the ass, but it isn't
your
kids fault.

Many times it is not even yourkid


What we really need to do is make the system work the same way for
both
genders ( it's getting there, just not fast enough ), and bust the
system of
abuse that is being leveled on ONE gender alone. ( I'm gonna get flamed
for
that ). The system is broke...and it needs a serious fixing.

The 'system is unconstitutional and immoral.


"justanotherdad" wrote in message
m...
The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?

"John Riggs" wrote in message
ws.com...
Thoughts? I'll tell you the same thing I told the last guy I worked
with
that complained about having to pay support ( and I don't mean the
abusive
support or collection systems ).
"Pay your support and be proud that you can.

Yeah right...............be proud you are being financially raped?

It's hard enough for your
kid,

Then it is the CP's fault

and you'd be ****ed if your ex withheld her support.

Nope

You kid will still
love you, regardless where they are, because you are their dad.

Had your head buried in the sand that long?

Try not to
miss any birthdays or special events and last but not least
"Smile"....those
are the things the kids remember".

You are assuming that the CP even allows you that


Yes, it's damned painful. Yes, it's a pain in the ass, but it isn't
your
kids fault.

Many times it is not even yourkid


What we really need to do is make the system work the same way for
both
genders ( it's getting there, just not fast enough ), and bust the
system of
abuse that is being leveled on ONE gender alone. ( I'm gonna get flamed
for
that ). The system is broke...and it needs a serious fixing.

The 'system is unconstitutional and immoral.


"justanotherdad" wrote in message
m...
The comments about mothers being critical of a Dad attempting to
"parent" their own kids hit home with me.

My motto is I want to be "a Parent, not a Playdate" with my only son.

This stance has caused me much grief and I am now well aware of how
prejuiced the divorce system and many woman (even MY Mom) are in my
attempts to be the best parent I can be. I do believe the academic
studies that say more contact with a Dad does kids good.

My ex grills my son every time after I return him in an attempt to dig
up dirt about my parenting and is very controlling during my very
limited visitation time. She has critizied me and complained in court
about almost everything I do with my son. It is very unjust.

It has made me want to give up --- but I haven't and it's ruining me
financially.

I feel a divorce has two consequences for a father:

1) They give up and are seen as "See they did not care anyway."
Hence, the divorce was justified. Dead-beats and/or no support.
2) They fight and are seen as intruding/harrassing. Eventually after
much financial hardship, if successful, they are able to win
significant time with their kids. Hence, the ex will then say the
divorce made them better fathers -- to which I say, no way --- in most
cases, the manipulating/controlling Mom prevent the father/Dad from
being as involved as he wanted to be in the first place.

And people wonder why dads tend not to be enthused about paying child
support!!!

Thoughts?