Why would you spank if you didn't have to?

When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a discipline tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children. This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force", which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school environment
(supported in the US courts) but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts. Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP) would
mean further undermining the safety of the family and those that work
with our children. This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself or others and property destruction issues. Keeping a
child out of the street or even the use of therpeutic restraint.
Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions against
those that work with children, would be further complicated with their
efforts. You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.
This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

***Alternative they ignore---Support educating parents to the
alternatives so that they make the best decisions for themselves--not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Non-spanker by choice,
Chris C.
TX



(Kane) wrote in message . com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a discipline tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children. This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

Parents earnestly trying to raise good kids are not the problem! Perhaps if
those short sighted had been properly disciplined, they would have more
respect for these precious souls and would not be working to undermine their
basically effective tried and true efforts. It's true that there is no
universally effective way to discipline any given child, but a parent knows
his or her own child better than most. No one has the right to interfere
with any parents sincere efforts to raise healthy respectful children, whose
actions they are responsible for.

For the Love of God and Country and the return to decency,

jacinthfish

"Chris C." wrote in message
m...
What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force", which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school environment
(supported in the US courts) but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts. Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP) would
mean further undermining the safety of the family and those that work
with our children. This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself or others and property destruction issues. Keeping a
child out of the street or even the use of therpeutic restraint.
Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions against
those that work with children, would be further complicated with their
efforts. You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.
This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

***Alternative they ignore---Support educating parents to the
alternatives so that they make the best decisions for themselves--not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Non-spanker by choice,
Chris C.
TX



(Kane) wrote in message
. com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a discipline tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children. This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

On 24 Feb 2004 13:47:26 -0800, (Chris C.) wrote:

And cross posted to groups Chris C. hoped would come galloping to the
rescue...many spanking compulsives out there in those ngs Chris C.?

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force",

Our real agenda is to take over the WOOOOOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDD, and make
you spanking compulsives watch children grow up non-violent,
productive free of substance abuse, and reaching more of their
potential, and grinding your teeth. I think we'll probably have to
lock you in cages...I know you sometimes rage now and lie like rugs
when you see happy unpunished children thriving.

Makes yah nuts, dudnit? R R R R R R

which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school environment
(supported in the US courts)

Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery. There is NO such case law or SC
decision that does that. There is a single case you silly fundaments
keep citing that was NOT about parental or school rights to spank, but
was in fact a matter of whether or not a child had been abused by
spanking and could or could not sue.

The law already says schools can spanking and so can parents...but
states have limits and that was a single state, not the US.

but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts.

Gosh, sounds like we are arming for insurrection. Do you know any
anti-spank folks that are that rapid? Or do you think we might just
use the exisiting processes patently but energetically and drive you
poor things MAD MAD MAD as we march closer and closer?

Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

You seem a tad paranoid? It's odd that you'd think spanking folks are
the level headed ones, and that those that do not wish to see children
subjected to CP, pain and humilation, are the "cohort" with secret
evil motives.

Just define "reasonable force" in applicable terms so that people know
how little or how much force to use for legal CP and you've got a
convert here.

And please, no more of this silly, "well if you can't tell the
difference," and the courts decide. Yah betcha they do.....after the
fact of injure. Kinda little late. But right in line with what some
non-spanking folks are asking for...the courts to decide. You keep
pushing to the courts and you'll get a Canadian solution.

You can't define "reasonable force," and no one else can. The
Canadians have cut it down to the bone...trifling and transistory and
no child two and under and none of 16. Looks like the definition for
"reasonable" in CP is moving downward.

How do you like them apples, bubbah? Trifling and transistory...sounds
like a love tap to me..and there WILL be test cases and there will be
further constraint's on the spankers. Imagine those church folks up
there getting away now with what The Plant defended....R R R R

Do you suppose it was us "cohort" that influenced that? R R R R R

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP)

So you too are going to try to answer The Question with "reasonable"
eh? Everyone in the world could say "reasonable" but no one can point
to the amount, even with close approximation that would not risk
injury...if not physical, psychic.

Give it a try.

would
mean further undermining the safety of the family

Yah know. I agree. Families that us CP are far more likely to than
families that don't use any punishment of any kind, verbal or
physical, to produce a child they might have to defend themselves from
and from each other. Happens all the time.

Great self fulfilling prophecy. The spanking compulsives get to
pretend all kids are that way and claim we non-punishers can't
"control" our children and they'll all turn into druggies and
criminals.

The only kids I've ever visited in jail were spanked children. I've
never know an unspanked child to be in prison. Must be some somewhere.
Would you mind checking the TX prisons for us.

and those that work
with our children.

I think you are right. People that work with your children had best
learn some good martial arts skills. They need them working with
children that have been turned into reactive little frightened and
rage filled beasts. Sad, isn't it?

But the we didn't need to "overturn" laws in Canada and you folks that
are spanking compulsives (active spankers or not) are inviting the
Canadian solution......a decision at the federal level.

Tell me you don't want the feds in MORE state's business, please. I'd
hate to think you are entirely without wit?

This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself

How would it do that? I can stop a child easily without hitting them.
I did it all the time from infant to teen with my own and with other
peoples children in mental health facilities. I used LESS force than
any other person there that did line work with children, I ended up
teaching the simple skills (more a mindset thing than any complicated
set of actions).

My kids had an extremely low incidence of self harm or harm to others.
They simply never got filled with rage from my humiliating or injuring
them. Happy kids. And productive. And busy. And intelligent. And fun
to be with. Still are, in their 40s.

or others and property destruction issues.

Nonsense. Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery.

Same applies as above. Children that are raised with gentleness and a
mind to supporting their development progess/exploration learn quickly
there isn't anything to worry about...they'll get their needs met
without having to go nutso under the hand of a spanker. They don't
need no steeeein' neurosis.

Keeping a
child out of the street

If Doan makes it by tomorrow morning you will be treated to the
content, debate wise, of the study report that Dr. Dennis Embry was
quoted in a parent's magazine about. The study is 25 years + - and
still valid. Children went into the street or toward LESS with the
lest punitive methods, and came close to zero entries when they were
instructed structed and positively reinforced for following the
instructions. And you'd be amazed at the sample demographics. These
weren't easy kids that had already had non-punitive methods used.

or even the use of therpeutic restraint.

YOU might be confused between spanking as in hitting, switching,
strapping, paddling, and all the other euphonisms for assault of a
child and therapeutic restraint, but I am not and neither is the
court, or anyone else, other than desperate spanking compulsives that
they might lose their hobby and relief valve.

Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions against
those that work with children,

Unless something else was up the courts were wrong. Probably a jury of
saps that could be conned into confusing the issue....or you are
leaving a few things out.

would be further complicated with their
efforts.

And did they lose? If so you wouldn't mind citing would you, just so
we can check and see what ALL the circumstances were?

You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.

Hogwash.

YOU CAN BE SUED FOR BLINKING TOO FAST AT SOMEONE AND TRIGGERING A
SEIZURE...R R R , in other words, suits are based on one's actions,
but on another's perceptions of ones actions. What a silly argument.

What you need to make a claim for, to be credible, is that we can be
criminally charged.

Try to make that one fly.

A cop can sit in her patrol car and watch you beaten to a pulp and do
nothing. No crimimal charge can be brought and suit would fail on
caselaw.

Time after time some sucker has bitten on that one and paid a retainer
only to discover it was money down the drain.

And YOU, and I are NOT required to save peoples lives.

Try to bring criminal charges against anyone that is loco parentis of
a child that didn't cause the injury death themselves. Look it up.

This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

Of course not. We know it to all be just a silly construct of the
spanking compulsives. Seen it for years. Never washed before, won't
now.

Spanking's going down, Cris C in Tx


***Alternative they ignore---

Now that is a flat out lie. I haven't seen a single person in this ng
that advocates for non-spanking that hasn't contributed links and or
citations to just such alternatives. And or commentary on better
methods.

Go ahead, name me one, you who hardly blows. I'll name you half a
dozen pdq that do so advocate.

Support educating parents to the
alternatives

Been done. There are tons of book. Courses. Easy to access. Parks
departments include such things in parenting courses, community
colleges, PET, STEP, a dozen more in the last two decades. Many are
cheap or free when sponsored by public agencies and a few private ones
as well. Even businesses big enough to offer and provide child care
pay for free parent trainings.

so that they make the best decisions for themselves--

Yep. Many chose not to make a change no matter how attractive the
offer. They are compulsives and strongly bonded to the activities and
habits around assaulting a child. They do NOT line up at the sign in
table for parenting classes.

not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Yeah, black Americans went for a century waiting for things to
progess. Patience the were told. Even their parents told them
patience.

I guess they figgered, sort of like us non-spanking "cohort" and
"clique," that nothing much is going to happen. That the non-bigots
already are non-bigots and there's only those who hang on to the old
outmoded savagry left....and offering them classes in understanding
racial bigotry didn't seem to make much headway....unless one wanted
to wait 500 years more.

Now if you want to inspire us to that kind of activism go ahead and
keep lying to yourself, and about us. Me, I've got a strong stomach
and do not want to have a law. I WANT parents to decide to stop the
carnage on their own, but you folks could corrupt a saint.

Non-spanker by choice,

Yep, which you proudly display while giving tacit permission to others
to spank...not to make a choice....but to continue NOT considering any
other choice.

You put that after your name to let yourself off the hook with your
own conscience and so that you can stand for choice...yet I've never
seen you post one thing pointing directly to alternatives as useful.

Yah kinda forgot that in your little years long tirade, no?

What I wrote below stands. And there is no evil cohort or clique
threatening parents. We simple want the assault, that so often ends in
injury to the child, to stop.

Assuming you believe YOU shouldn't be hit..........

It seems you think wanting pain and humilation to stop even if by law
for adults is a good thing, but for children, a bad thing if it stops
by law.

I wonder why? I think you are logic impaired for a reason, but darned
if I know who. You ever consider it?

Chris C.
TX

I can't imagine that any of the anti spankers here wouldn't much
prefer NO law being writen on spanking. They are just realists,
understand history, and recognize the same kind of preservation of
privilege that spanking is as were other exploitations and humilations
of humans in the past.

A few slave owners freed their slaves...very few...and few more freed
a few slaves (I put YOU in that category....an apologist and fake
abolishionist)...but the vast majority of slaves, just like the 90% +
children in this country, were not going to enjoy freedom until there
was a bloodly campaign to break slave owner's privilege.

Between abolishionists and states rights pro-slave which would YOU
have been?

A northerner that said, "let them all make up their own minds?"

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a discipline
tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work
without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the
same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of
their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children. This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average
eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen
JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive
methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment
be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:32:43 -0500, "jacinthfish"
wrote:

Parents earnestly trying to raise good kids are not the problem!

Yes, some of them are the problem. Some are ignorant. Some are
neurotically reactive to the assaults on them as children. And some
actually believe that spanking is a good thing.

Some don't buy any of that and look for better ways.

Perhaps if
those short sighted had been properly disciplined, they would have
more
respect for these precious souls and would not be working to
undermine their
basically effective tried and true efforts.

Spoken like a true anti-abolishionist.

There are many, and have been throughout history, that did not use CP
on their children. Hence there is no real shortage of other "tried and
true methods" if one wasn't lost in spanking compulsiveness.

It's true that there is no
universally effective way to discipline any given child, but a parent
knows
his or her own child better than most.

You right, "there is no universally effective way to discipline any
given child," yet CP compulsives routinely apply it to every child,
lightly or moreso, based on what? Nothing really, but the relative
reactivity of a child to being hurt and humilated.

No one has the right to interfere
with any parents sincere efforts to raise healthy respectful
children, whose
actions they are responsible for.

Not if you live on a desert island alone with your family. Only YOU
have to answer to your son or daughter when they kill you. You are
lucky to have society to cushion and distract them from what you do to
them.

Here, in society, we have to live with the results of violent child
rearing methods.

For the Love of God and Country and the return to decency,

I should hope so.

Stop assaulting children and learn how to parent instead of making
excuses for ignorance and compulsions and taking your own lacks out on
the children.

jacinthfish

Kane



"Chris C." wrote in message
om...
What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't
to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force", which is
currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school
environment
(supported in the US courts) but to over-turn the laws through
local
efforts. Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP) would
mean further undermining the safety of the family and those that
work
with our children. This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself or others and property destruction issues. Keeping
a
child out of the street or even the use of therpeutic restraint.
Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions
against
those that work with children, would be further complicated with
their
efforts. You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to
act.
This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

***Alternative they ignore---Support educating parents to the
alternatives so that they make the best decisions for
themselves--not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Non-spanker by choice,
Chris C.
TX



(Kane) wrote in message
.com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a discipline
tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to
the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work
without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that
the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or
seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the
same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of
their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to
high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children.
This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence
in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average
eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen
JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults
and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and
the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive
methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of
punishment be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy
Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

I wish I had the time to wite a book everytime I sent a message in a group
like Kane does. Your post are so long, most the time I never even finish
reading them. Do you have anything better to do than spend your day debating
spanking? Get a life!

"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On 24 Feb 2004 13:47:26 -0800, (Chris C.) wrote:

And cross posted to groups Chris C. hoped would come galloping to the
rescue...many spanking compulsives out there in those ngs Chris C.?

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force",

Our real agenda is to take over the WOOOOOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDD, and make
you spanking compulsives watch children grow up non-violent,
productive free of substance abuse, and reaching more of their
potential, and grinding your teeth. I think we'll probably have to
lock you in cages...I know you sometimes rage now and lie like rugs
when you see happy unpunished children thriving.

Makes yah nuts, dudnit? R R R R R R

which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school environment
(supported in the US courts)

Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery. There is NO such case law or SC
decision that does that. There is a single case you silly fundaments
keep citing that was NOT about parental or school rights to spank, but
was in fact a matter of whether or not a child had been abused by
spanking and could or could not sue.

The law already says schools can spanking and so can parents...but
states have limits and that was a single state, not the US.

but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts.

Gosh, sounds like we are arming for insurrection. Do you know any
anti-spank folks that are that rapid? Or do you think we might just
use the exisiting processes patently but energetically and drive you
poor things MAD MAD MAD as we march closer and closer?

Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

You seem a tad paranoid? It's odd that you'd think spanking folks are
the level headed ones, and that those that do not wish to see children
subjected to CP, pain and humilation, are the "cohort" with secret
evil motives.

Just define "reasonable force" in applicable terms so that people know
how little or how much force to use for legal CP and you've got a
convert here.

And please, no more of this silly, "well if you can't tell the
difference," and the courts decide. Yah betcha they do.....after the
fact of injure. Kinda little late. But right in line with what some
non-spanking folks are asking for...the courts to decide. You keep
pushing to the courts and you'll get a Canadian solution.

You can't define "reasonable force," and no one else can. The
Canadians have cut it down to the bone...trifling and transistory and
no child two and under and none of 16. Looks like the definition for
"reasonable" in CP is moving downward.

How do you like them apples, bubbah? Trifling and transistory...sounds
like a love tap to me..and there WILL be test cases and there will be
further constraint's on the spankers. Imagine those church folks up
there getting away now with what The Plant defended....R R R R

Do you suppose it was us "cohort" that influenced that? R R R R R

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP)

So you too are going to try to answer The Question with "reasonable"
eh? Everyone in the world could say "reasonable" but no one can point
to the amount, even with close approximation that would not risk
injury...if not physical, psychic.

Give it a try.

would
mean further undermining the safety of the family

Yah know. I agree. Families that us CP are far more likely to than
families that don't use any punishment of any kind, verbal or
physical, to produce a child they might have to defend themselves from
and from each other. Happens all the time.

Great self fulfilling prophecy. The spanking compulsives get to
pretend all kids are that way and claim we non-punishers can't
"control" our children and they'll all turn into druggies and
criminals.

The only kids I've ever visited in jail were spanked children. I've
never know an unspanked child to be in prison. Must be some somewhere.
Would you mind checking the TX prisons for us.

and those that work
with our children.

I think you are right. People that work with your children had best
learn some good martial arts skills. They need them working with
children that have been turned into reactive little frightened and
rage filled beasts. Sad, isn't it?

But the we didn't need to "overturn" laws in Canada and you folks that
are spanking compulsives (active spankers or not) are inviting the
Canadian solution......a decision at the federal level.

Tell me you don't want the feds in MORE state's business, please. I'd
hate to think you are entirely without wit?

This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself

How would it do that? I can stop a child easily without hitting them.
I did it all the time from infant to teen with my own and with other
peoples children in mental health facilities. I used LESS force than
any other person there that did line work with children, I ended up
teaching the simple skills (more a mindset thing than any complicated
set of actions).

My kids had an extremely low incidence of self harm or harm to others.
They simply never got filled with rage from my humiliating or injuring
them. Happy kids. And productive. And busy. And intelligent. And fun
to be with. Still are, in their 40s.

or others and property destruction issues.

Nonsense. Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery.

Same applies as above. Children that are raised with gentleness and a
mind to supporting their development progess/exploration learn quickly
there isn't anything to worry about...they'll get their needs met
without having to go nutso under the hand of a spanker. They don't
need no steeeein' neurosis.

Keeping a
child out of the street

If Doan makes it by tomorrow morning you will be treated to the
content, debate wise, of the study report that Dr. Dennis Embry was
quoted in a parent's magazine about. The study is 25 years + - and
still valid. Children went into the street or toward LESS with the
lest punitive methods, and came close to zero entries when they were
instructed structed and positively reinforced for following the
instructions. And you'd be amazed at the sample demographics. These
weren't easy kids that had already had non-punitive methods used.

or even the use of therpeutic restraint.

YOU might be confused between spanking as in hitting, switching,
strapping, paddling, and all the other euphonisms for assault of a
child and therapeutic restraint, but I am not and neither is the
court, or anyone else, other than desperate spanking compulsives that
they might lose their hobby and relief valve.

Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions against
those that work with children,

Unless something else was up the courts were wrong. Probably a jury of
saps that could be conned into confusing the issue....or you are
leaving a few things out.

would be further complicated with their
efforts.

And did they lose? If so you wouldn't mind citing would you, just so
we can check and see what ALL the circumstances were?

You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.

Hogwash.

YOU CAN BE SUED FOR BLINKING TOO FAST AT SOMEONE AND TRIGGERING A
SEIZURE...R R R , in other words, suits are based on one's actions,
but on another's perceptions of ones actions. What a silly argument.

What you need to make a claim for, to be credible, is that we can be
criminally charged.

Try to make that one fly.

A cop can sit in her patrol car and watch you beaten to a pulp and do
nothing. No crimimal charge can be brought and suit would fail on
caselaw.

Time after time some sucker has bitten on that one and paid a retainer
only to discover it was money down the drain.

And YOU, and I are NOT required to save peoples lives.

Try to bring criminal charges against anyone that is loco parentis of
a child that didn't cause the injury death themselves. Look it up.

This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

Of course not. We know it to all be just a silly construct of the
spanking compulsives. Seen it for years. Never washed before, won't
now.

Spanking's going down, Cris C in Tx


***Alternative they ignore---

Now that is a flat out lie. I haven't seen a single person in this ng
that advocates for non-spanking that hasn't contributed links and or
citations to just such alternatives. And or commentary on better
methods.

Go ahead, name me one, you who hardly blows. I'll name you half a
dozen pdq that do so advocate.

Support educating parents to the
alternatives

Been done. There are tons of book. Courses. Easy to access. Parks
departments include such things in parenting courses, community
colleges, PET, STEP, a dozen more in the last two decades. Many are
cheap or free when sponsored by public agencies and a few private ones
as well. Even businesses big enough to offer and provide child care
pay for free parent trainings.

so that they make the best decisions for themselves--

Yep. Many chose not to make a change no matter how attractive the
offer. They are compulsives and strongly bonded to the activities and
habits around assaulting a child. They do NOT line up at the sign in
table for parenting classes.

not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Yeah, black Americans went for a century waiting for things to
progess. Patience the were told. Even their parents told them
patience.

I guess they figgered, sort of like us non-spanking "cohort" and
"clique," that nothing much is going to happen. That the non-bigots
already are non-bigots and there's only those who hang on to the old
outmoded savagry left....and offering them classes in understanding
racial bigotry didn't seem to make much headway....unless one wanted
to wait 500 years more.

Now if you want to inspire us to that kind of activism go ahead and
keep lying to yourself, and about us. Me, I've got a strong stomach
and do not want to have a law. I WANT parents to decide to stop the
carnage on their own, but you folks could corrupt a saint.

Non-spanker by choice,

Yep, which you proudly display while giving tacit permission to others
to spank...not to make a choice....but to continue NOT considering any
other choice.

You put that after your name to let yourself off the hook with your
own conscience and so that you can stand for choice...yet I've never
seen you post one thing pointing directly to alternatives as useful.

Yah kinda forgot that in your little years long tirade, no?

What I wrote below stands. And there is no evil cohort or clique
threatening parents. We simple want the assault, that so often ends in
injury to the child, to stop.

Assuming you believe YOU shouldn't be hit..........

It seems you think wanting pain and humilation to stop even if by law
for adults is a good thing, but for children, a bad thing if it stops
by law.

I wonder why? I think you are logic impaired for a reason, but darned
if I know who. You ever consider it?

Chris C.
TX

I can't imagine that any of the anti spankers here wouldn't much
prefer NO law being writen on spanking. They are just realists,
understand history, and recognize the same kind of preservation of
privilege that spanking is as were other exploitations and humilations
of humans in the past.

A few slave owners freed their slaves...very few...and few more freed
a few slaves (I put YOU in that category....an apologist and fake
abolishionist)...but the vast majority of slaves, just like the 90% +
children in this country, were not going to enjoy freedom until there
was a bloodly campaign to break slave owner's privilege.

Between abolishionists and states rights pro-slave which would YOU
have been?

A northerner that said, "let them all make up their own minds?"

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message
. com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a discipline
tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work
without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the
same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of
their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children. This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average
eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen
JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive
methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment
be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:46:02 GMT, "billy f"
wrote:

I wish I had the time to wite a book

Maybe you should write one: "How Spanking Compulsives Lost Out to the
Children of the Non-punishing Parents."

everytime I sent a message in a group
like Kane does.

I am extremely fast on the keyboard.

But just so we won't tax your reading ability, I'll keep this short
and sweet. You yahoos are losing. There, simple enough for you?

Your post are so long, most the time I never even finish
reading them.

Reading speed and comprehension problems? Musta not been spanked
enough.

Do you have anything better to do than spend your day debating
spanking?

Not a question of what is better and what not. I don't rank my efforts
that way much.

And what's really to debate? It's mostly just showing you spanking
compulsives up for the self deluded fools, liars, and neutrotically
vicious folks you are. There's no real debate here from you ninnies.

Look at Droany. Just dodgin' for weeks now. Won't answer simple
straight requests, even dodges when he's made a claim and is
challenged on it.

This isn't debating, billybob.

It's the whining of the spanked.

Get a life!

I did when I decided that children should not be hurt as a matter of
course in parenting. There's enough hurt in the world parents don't
need to add to it.

I found out there were other ways of raising a child.

Here's a number of them, some never spanking, some reformed. Must all
be wrong, eh? Personally I've known non-spanking, non-punishment
method parents and children now for over 40 years, and the children
consistently turn out wonderfully: non-violent, productive, happy, and
a joy to have for children and friends....and I'm not talking two of
them, but scores.

And I'm getting to watch two other generations do the same thing. We
are going to take the planet away from you yahoos. Unspanked children
tend to be very patient, intelligent, and good planners and
tacticians. Very little in the way of neurotic self delusion to get in
the way, you see.

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

This is "the enemy," poor little whiny billybob.

http://atlc.org/index.php

And this is just one of the ways we are doing it.

Even among spankers, the successful child is rarely spanked at all.
And the myth of the evil, criminal, violent unpunished child is
that...just a myth.

Have a good life, and remember, you and your kids are going to lose
out because of your compulsion to spank.

Pass it on. R R R R R

Kane



"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On 24 Feb 2004 13:47:26 -0800, (Chris C.)
wrote:

And cross posted to groups Chris C. hoped would come galloping to
the
rescue...many spanking compulsives out there in those ngs Chris C.?

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't
to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force",

Our real agenda is to take over the WOOOOOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDD, and
make
you spanking compulsives watch children grow up non-violent,
productive free of substance abuse, and reaching more of their
potential, and grinding your teeth. I think we'll probably have to
lock you in cages...I know you sometimes rage now and lie like rugs
when you see happy unpunished children thriving.

Makes yah nuts, dudnit? R R R R R R

which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school
environment
(supported in the US courts)

Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery. There is NO such case law or SC
decision that does that. There is a single case you silly
fundaments
keep citing that was NOT about parental or school rights to spank,
but
was in fact a matter of whether or not a child had been abused by
spanking and could or could not sue.

The law already says schools can spanking and so can parents...but
states have limits and that was a single state, not the US.

but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts.

Gosh, sounds like we are arming for insurrection. Do you know any
anti-spank folks that are that rapid? Or do you think we might just
use the exisiting processes patently but energetically and drive
you
poor things MAD MAD MAD as we march closer and closer?

Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

You seem a tad paranoid? It's odd that you'd think spanking folks
are
the level headed ones, and that those that do not wish to see
children
subjected to CP, pain and humilation, are the "cohort" with secret
evil motives.

Just define "reasonable force" in applicable terms so that people
know
how little or how much force to use for legal CP and you've got a
convert here.

And please, no more of this silly, "well if you can't tell the
difference," and the courts decide. Yah betcha they do.....after
the
fact of injure. Kinda little late. But right in line with what
some
non-spanking folks are asking for...the courts to decide. You keep
pushing to the courts and you'll get a Canadian solution.

You can't define "reasonable force," and no one else can. The
Canadians have cut it down to the bone...trifling and transistory
and
no child two and under and none of 16. Looks like the definition
for
"reasonable" in CP is moving downward.

How do you like them apples, bubbah? Trifling and
transistory...sounds
like a love tap to me..and there WILL be test cases and there will
be
further constraint's on the spankers. Imagine those church folks up
there getting away now with what The Plant defended....R R R R

Do you suppose it was us "cohort" that influenced that? R R R R R

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP)

So you too are going to try to answer The Question with
"reasonable"
eh? Everyone in the world could say "reasonable" but no one can
point
to the amount, even with close approximation that would not risk
injury...if not physical, psychic.

Give it a try.

would
mean further undermining the safety of the family

Yah know. I agree. Families that us CP are far more likely to than
families that don't use any punishment of any kind, verbal or
physical, to produce a child they might have to defend themselves
from
and from each other. Happens all the time.

Great self fulfilling prophecy. The spanking compulsives get to
pretend all kids are that way and claim we non-punishers can't
"control" our children and they'll all turn into druggies and
criminals.

The only kids I've ever visited in jail were spanked children. I've
never know an unspanked child to be in prison. Must be some
somewhere.
Would you mind checking the TX prisons for us.

and those that work
with our children.

I think you are right. People that work with your children had best
learn some good martial arts skills. They need them working with
children that have been turned into reactive little frightened and
rage filled beasts. Sad, isn't it?

But the we didn't need to "overturn" laws in Canada and you folks
that
are spanking compulsives (active spankers or not) are inviting the
Canadian solution......a decision at the federal level.

Tell me you don't want the feds in MORE state's business, please.
I'd
hate to think you are entirely without wit?

This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself

How would it do that? I can stop a child easily without hitting
them.
I did it all the time from infant to teen with my own and with
other
peoples children in mental health facilities. I used LESS force
than
any other person there that did line work with children, I ended up
teaching the simple skills (more a mindset thing than any
complicated
set of actions).

My kids had an extremely low incidence of self harm or harm to
others.
They simply never got filled with rage from my humiliating or
injuring
them. Happy kids. And productive. And busy. And intelligent. And
fun
to be with. Still are, in their 40s.

or others and property destruction issues.

Nonsense. Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery.

Same applies as above. Children that are raised with gentleness and
a
mind to supporting their development progess/exploration learn
quickly
there isn't anything to worry about...they'll get their needs met
without having to go nutso under the hand of a spanker. They don't
need no steeeein' neurosis.

Keeping a
child out of the street

If Doan makes it by tomorrow morning you will be treated to the
content, debate wise, of the study report that Dr. Dennis Embry was
quoted in a parent's magazine about. The study is 25 years + - and
still valid. Children went into the street or toward LESS with the
lest punitive methods, and came close to zero entries when they
were
instructed structed and positively reinforced for following the
instructions. And you'd be amazed at the sample demographics. These
weren't easy kids that had already had non-punitive methods used.

or even the use of therpeutic restraint.

YOU might be confused between spanking as in hitting, switching,
strapping, paddling, and all the other euphonisms for assault of a
child and therapeutic restraint, but I am not and neither is the
court, or anyone else, other than desperate spanking compulsives
that
they might lose their hobby and relief valve.

Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions
against
those that work with children,

Unless something else was up the courts were wrong. Probably a jury
of
saps that could be conned into confusing the issue....or you are
leaving a few things out.

would be further complicated with their
efforts.

And did they lose? If so you wouldn't mind citing would you, just
so
we can check and see what ALL the circumstances were?

You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.

Hogwash.

YOU CAN BE SUED FOR BLINKING TOO FAST AT SOMEONE AND TRIGGERING A
SEIZURE...R R R , in other words, suits are based on one's actions,
but on another's perceptions of ones actions. What a silly
argument.

What you need to make a claim for, to be credible, is that we can
be
criminally charged.

Try to make that one fly.

A cop can sit in her patrol car and watch you beaten to a pulp and
do
nothing. No crimimal charge can be brought and suit would fail on
caselaw.

Time after time some sucker has bitten on that one and paid a
retainer
only to discover it was money down the drain.

And YOU, and I are NOT required to save peoples lives.

Try to bring criminal charges against anyone that is loco parentis
of
a child that didn't cause the injury death themselves. Look it up.

This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

Of course not. We know it to all be just a silly construct of the
spanking compulsives. Seen it for years. Never washed before, won't
now.

Spanking's going down, Cris C in Tx


***Alternative they ignore---

Now that is a flat out lie. I haven't seen a single person in this
ng
that advocates for non-spanking that hasn't contributed links and
or
citations to just such alternatives. And or commentary on better
methods.

Go ahead, name me one, you who hardly blows. I'll name you half a
dozen pdq that do so advocate.

Support educating parents to the
alternatives

Been done. There are tons of book. Courses. Easy to access. Parks
departments include such things in parenting courses, community
colleges, PET, STEP, a dozen more in the last two decades. Many are
cheap or free when sponsored by public agencies and a few private
ones
as well. Even businesses big enough to offer and provide child care
pay for free parent trainings.

so that they make the best decisions for themselves--

Yep. Many chose not to make a change no matter how attractive the
offer. They are compulsives and strongly bonded to the activities
and
habits around assaulting a child. They do NOT line up at the sign
in
table for parenting classes.

not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Yeah, black Americans went for a century waiting for things to
progess. Patience the were told. Even their parents told them
patience.

I guess they figgered, sort of like us non-spanking "cohort" and
"clique," that nothing much is going to happen. That the non-bigots
already are non-bigots and there's only those who hang on to the
old
outmoded savagry left....and offering them classes in understanding
racial bigotry didn't seem to make much headway....unless one
wanted
to wait 500 years more.

Now if you want to inspire us to that kind of activism go ahead and
keep lying to yourself, and about us. Me, I've got a strong stomach
and do not want to have a law. I WANT parents to decide to stop the
carnage on their own, but you folks could corrupt a saint.

Non-spanker by choice,

Yep, which you proudly display while giving tacit permission to
others
to spank...not to make a choice....but to continue NOT considering
any
other choice.

You put that after your name to let yourself off the hook with your
own conscience and so that you can stand for choice...yet I've
never
seen you post one thing pointing directly to alternatives as
useful.

Yah kinda forgot that in your little years long tirade, no?

What I wrote below stands. And there is no evil cohort or clique
threatening parents. We simple want the assault, that so often ends
in
injury to the child, to stop.

Assuming you believe YOU shouldn't be hit..........

It seems you think wanting pain and humilation to stop even if by
law
for adults is a good thing, but for children, a bad thing if it
stops
by law.

I wonder why? I think you are logic impaired for a reason, but
darned
if I know who. You ever consider it?

Chris C.
TX

I can't imagine that any of the anti spankers here wouldn't much
prefer NO law being writen on spanking. They are just realists,
understand history, and recognize the same kind of preservation of
privilege that spanking is as were other exploitations and
humilations
of humans in the past.

A few slave owners freed their slaves...very few...and few more
freed
a few slaves (I put YOU in that category....an apologist and fake
abolishionist)...but the vast majority of slaves, just like the 90%
+
children in this country, were not going to enjoy freedom until
there
was a bloodly campaign to break slave owner's privilege.

Between abolishionists and states rights pro-slave which would YOU
have been?

A northerner that said, "let them all make up their own minds?"

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message
.com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a
discipline
tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to
the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work
without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that
the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or
seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the
same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of
their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to
high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children.
This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence
in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average
eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy.
Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families
occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in
the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen
JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults
and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and
the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they
would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive
methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of
punishment
be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy
Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

Billy rightly observed:

Do you have anything better to do than spend your day debating
spanking? Get a life!

Billy, he is good at VERBALL ABUSING WOMEN with the C*** word.

What a paragon of nothingness. What a hypocrite.

Subject: Why would you spank if you didn't have to?
From: "billy f"
Date: 2/26/2004 4:46 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: m

I wish I had the time to wite a book everytime I sent a message in a group
like Kane does. Your post are so long, most the time I never even finish
reading them. Do you have anything better to do than spend your day debating
spanking? Get a life!

"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On 24 Feb 2004 13:47:26 -0800, (Chris C.) wrote:

And cross posted to groups Chris C. hoped would come galloping to the
rescue...many spanking compulsives out there in those ngs Chris C.?

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force",

Our real agenda is to take over the WOOOOOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDD, and make
you spanking compulsives watch children grow up non-violent,
productive free of substance abuse, and reaching more of their
potential, and grinding your teeth. I think we'll probably have to
lock you in cages...I know you sometimes rage now and lie like rugs
when you see happy unpunished children thriving.

Makes yah nuts, dudnit? R R R R R R

which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school environment
(supported in the US courts)

Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery. There is NO such case law or SC
decision that does that. There is a single case you silly fundaments
keep citing that was NOT about parental or school rights to spank, but
was in fact a matter of whether or not a child had been abused by
spanking and could or could not sue.

The law already says schools can spanking and so can parents...but
states have limits and that was a single state, not the US.

but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts.

Gosh, sounds like we are arming for insurrection. Do you know any
anti-spank folks that are that rapid? Or do you think we might just
use the exisiting processes patently but energetically and drive you
poor things MAD MAD MAD as we march closer and closer?

Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

You seem a tad paranoid? It's odd that you'd think spanking folks are
the level headed ones, and that those that do not wish to see children
subjected to CP, pain and humilation, are the "cohort" with secret
evil motives.

Just define "reasonable force" in applicable terms so that people know
how little or how much force to use for legal CP and you've got a
convert here.

And please, no more of this silly, "well if you can't tell the
difference," and the courts decide. Yah betcha they do.....after the
fact of injure. Kinda little late. But right in line with what some
non-spanking folks are asking for...the courts to decide. You keep
pushing to the courts and you'll get a Canadian solution.

You can't define "reasonable force," and no one else can. The
Canadians have cut it down to the bone...trifling and transistory and
no child two and under and none of 16. Looks like the definition for
"reasonable" in CP is moving downward.

How do you like them apples, bubbah? Trifling and transistory...sounds
like a love tap to me..and there WILL be test cases and there will be
further constraint's on the spankers. Imagine those church folks up
there getting away now with what The Plant defended....R R R R

Do you suppose it was us "cohort" that influenced that? R R R R R

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP)

So you too are going to try to answer The Question with "reasonable"
eh? Everyone in the world could say "reasonable" but no one can point
to the amount, even with close approximation that would not risk
injury...if not physical, psychic.

Give it a try.

would
mean further undermining the

Fern and other independent thinkers,

Notice the "clique" wannabee pulls out the cross-posts to isolate
rather than broaden the discussions.--Typical neo-liberal tactics (no
guts to debate in the open using basic guidelines---typical
non-academic).

Non-spanker by choice,
Chris C.
TX


(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:46:02 GMT, "billy f"
wrote:

I wish I had the time to wite a book

Maybe you should write one: "How Spanking Compulsives Lost Out to the
Children of the Non-punishing Parents."

everytime I sent a message in a group
like Kane does.

I am extremely fast on the keyboard.

But just so we won't tax your reading ability, I'll keep this short
and sweet. You yahoos are losing. There, simple enough for you?

Your post are so long, most the time I never even finish
reading them.

Reading speed and comprehension problems? Musta not been spanked
enough.

Do you have anything better to do than spend your day debating
spanking?

Not a question of what is better and what not. I don't rank my efforts
that way much.

And what's really to debate? It's mostly just showing you spanking
compulsives up for the self deluded fools, liars, and neutrotically
vicious folks you are. There's no real debate here from you ninnies.

Look at Droany. Just dodgin' for weeks now. Won't answer simple
straight requests, even dodges when he's made a claim and is
challenged on it.

This isn't debating, billybob.

It's the whining of the spanked.

Get a life!

I did when I decided that children should not be hurt as a matter of
course in parenting. There's enough hurt in the world parents don't
need to add to it.

I found out there were other ways of raising a child.

Here's a number of them, some never spanking, some reformed. Must all
be wrong, eh? Personally I've known non-spanking, non-punishment
method parents and children now for over 40 years, and the children
consistently turn out wonderfully: non-violent, productive, happy, and
a joy to have for children and friends....and I'm not talking two of
them, but scores.

And I'm getting to watch two other generations do the same thing. We
are going to take the planet away from you yahoos. Unspanked children
tend to be very patient, intelligent, and good planners and
tacticians. Very little in the way of neurotic self delusion to get in
the way, you see.

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

This is "the enemy," poor little whiny billybob.

http://atlc.org/index.php

And this is just one of the ways we are doing it.

Even among spankers, the successful child is rarely spanked at all.
And the myth of the evil, criminal, violent unpunished child is
that...just a myth.

Have a good life, and remember, you and your kids are going to lose
out because of your compulsion to spank.

Pass it on. R R R R R

Kane



"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On 24 Feb 2004 13:47:26 -0800, (Chris C.)
wrote:

And cross posted to groups Chris C. hoped would come galloping to
the
rescue...many spanking compulsives out there in those ngs Chris C.?

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda isn't
to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force",

Our real agenda is to take over the WOOOOOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDD, and
make
you spanking compulsives watch children grow up non-violent,
productive free of substance abuse, and reaching more of their
potential, and grinding your teeth. I think we'll probably have to
lock you in cages...I know you sometimes rage now and lie like rugs
when you see happy unpunished children thriving.

Makes yah nuts, dudnit? R R R R R R

which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school
environment
(supported in the US courts)

Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery. There is NO such case law or SC
decision that does that. There is a single case you silly
fundaments
keep citing that was NOT about parental or school rights to spank,
but
was in fact a matter of whether or not a child had been abused by
spanking and could or could not sue.

The law already says schools can spanking and so can parents...but
states have limits and that was a single state, not the US.

but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts.

Gosh, sounds like we are arming for insurrection. Do you know any
anti-spank folks that are that rapid? Or do you think we might just
use the exisiting processes patently but energetically and drive
you
poor things MAD MAD MAD as we march closer and closer?

Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

You seem a tad paranoid? It's odd that you'd think spanking folks
are
the level headed ones, and that those that do not wish to see
children
subjected to CP, pain and humilation, are the "cohort" with secret
evil motives.

Just define "reasonable force" in applicable terms so that people
know
how little or how much force to use for legal CP and you've got a
convert here.

And please, no more of this silly, "well if you can't tell the
difference," and the courts decide. Yah betcha they do.....after
the
fact of injure. Kinda little late. But right in line with what
some
non-spanking folks are asking for...the courts to decide. You keep
pushing to the courts and you'll get a Canadian solution.

You can't define "reasonable force," and no one else can. The
Canadians have cut it down to the bone...trifling and transistory
and
no child two and under and none of 16. Looks like the definition
for
"reasonable" in CP is moving downward.

How do you like them apples, bubbah? Trifling and
transistory...sounds
like a love tap to me..and there WILL be test cases and there will
be
further constraint's on the spankers. Imagine those church folks up
there getting away now with what The Plant defended....R R R R

Do you suppose it was us "cohort" that influenced that? R R R R R

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP)

So you too are going to try to answer The Question with
"reasonable"
eh? Everyone in the world could say "reasonable" but no one can
point
to the amount, even with close approximation that would not risk
injury...if not physical, psychic.

Give it a try.

would
mean further undermining the safety of the family

Yah know. I agree. Families that us CP are far more likely to than
families that don't use any punishment of any kind, verbal or
physical, to produce a child they might have to defend themselves
from
and from each other. Happens all the time.

Great self fulfilling prophecy. The spanking compulsives get to
pretend all kids are that way and claim we non-punishers can't
"control" our children and they'll all turn into druggies and
criminals.

The only kids I've ever visited in jail were spanked children. I've
never know an unspanked child to be in prison. Must be some
somewhere.
Would you mind checking the TX prisons for us.

and those that work
with our children.

I think you are right. People that work with your children had best
learn some good martial arts skills. They need them working with
children that have been turned into reactive little frightened and
rage filled beasts. Sad, isn't it?

But the we didn't need to "overturn" laws in Canada and you folks
that
are spanking compulsives (active spankers or not) are inviting the
Canadian solution......a decision at the federal level.

Tell me you don't want the feds in MORE state's business, please.
I'd
hate to think you are entirely without wit?

This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself

How would it do that? I can stop a child easily without hitting
them.
I did it all the time from infant to teen with my own and with
other
peoples children in mental health facilities. I used LESS force
than
any other person there that did line work with children, I ended up
teaching the simple skills (more a mindset thing than any
complicated
set of actions).

My kids had an extremely low incidence of self harm or harm to
others.
They simply never got filled with rage from my humiliating or
injuring
them. Happy kids. And productive. And busy. And intelligent. And
fun
to be with. Still are, in their 40s.

or others and property destruction issues.

Nonsense. Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery.

Same applies as above. Children that are raised with gentleness and
a
mind to supporting their development progess/exploration learn
quickly
there isn't anything to worry about...they'll get their needs met
without having to go nutso under the hand of a spanker. They don't
need no steeeein' neurosis.

Keeping a
child out of the street

If Doan makes it by tomorrow morning you will be treated to the
content, debate wise, of the study report that Dr. Dennis Embry was
quoted in a parent's magazine about. The study is 25 years + - and
still valid. Children went into the street or toward LESS with the
lest punitive methods, and came close to zero entries when they
were
instructed structed and positively reinforced for following the
instructions. And you'd be amazed at the sample demographics. These
weren't easy kids that had already had non-punitive methods used.

or even the use of therpeutic restraint.

YOU might be confused between spanking as in hitting, switching,
strapping, paddling, and all the other euphonisms for assault of a
child and therapeutic restraint, but I am not and neither is the
court, or anyone else, other than desperate spanking compulsives
that
they might lose their hobby and relief valve.

Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions
against
those that work with children,

Unless something else was up the courts were wrong. Probably a jury
of
saps that could be conned into confusing the issue....or you are
leaving a few things out.

would be further complicated with their
efforts.

And did they lose? If so you wouldn't mind citing would you, just
so
we can check and see what ALL the circumstances were?

You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.

Hogwash.

YOU CAN BE SUED FOR BLINKING TOO FAST AT SOMEONE AND TRIGGERING A
SEIZURE...R R R , in other words, suits are based on one's actions,
but on another's perceptions of ones actions. What a silly
argument.

What you need to make a claim for, to be credible, is that we can
be
criminally charged.

Try to make that one fly.

A cop can sit in her patrol car and watch you beaten to a pulp and
do
nothing. No crimimal charge can be brought and suit would fail on
caselaw.

Time after time some sucker has bitten on that one and paid a
retainer
only to discover it was money down the drain.

And YOU, and I are NOT required to save peoples lives.

Try to bring criminal charges against anyone that is loco parentis
of
a child that didn't cause the injury death themselves. Look it up.

This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

Of course not. We know it to all be just a silly construct of the
spanking compulsives. Seen it for years. Never washed before, won't
now.

Spanking's going down, Cris C in Tx


***Alternative they ignore---

Now that is a flat out lie. I haven't seen a single person in this
ng
that advocates for non-spanking that hasn't contributed links and
or
citations to just such alternatives. And or commentary on better
methods.

Go ahead, name me one, you who hardly blows. I'll name you half a
dozen pdq that do so advocate.

Support educating parents to the
alternatives

Been done. There are tons of book. Courses. Easy to access. Parks
departments include such things in parenting courses, community
colleges, PET, STEP, a dozen more in the last two decades. Many are
cheap or free when sponsored by public agencies and a few private
ones
as well. Even businesses big enough to offer and provide child care
pay for free parent trainings.

so that they make the best decisions for themselves--

Yep. Many chose not to make a change no matter how attractive the
offer. They are compulsives and strongly bonded to the activities
and
habits around assaulting a child. They do NOT line up at the sign
in
table for parenting classes.

not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Yeah, black Americans went for a century waiting for things to
progess. Patience the were told. Even their parents told them
patience.

I guess they figgered, sort of like us non-spanking "cohort" and
"clique," that nothing much is going to happen. That the non-bigots
already are non-bigots and there's only those who hang on to the
old
outmoded savagry left....and offering them classes in understanding
racial bigotry didn't seem to make much headway....unless one
wanted
to wait 500 years more.

Now if you want to inspire us to that kind of activism go ahead and
keep lying to yourself, and about us. Me, I've got a strong stomach
and do not want to have a law. I WANT parents to decide to stop the
carnage on their own, but you folks could corrupt a saint.

Non-spanker by choice,

Yep, which you proudly display while giving tacit permission to
others
to spank...not to make a choice....but to continue NOT considering
any
other choice.

You put that after your name to let yourself off the hook with your
own conscience and so that you can stand for choice...yet I've
never
seen you post one thing pointing directly to alternatives as
useful.

Yah kinda forgot that in your little years long tirade, no?

What I wrote below stands. And there is no evil cohort or clique
threatening parents. We simple want the assault, that so often ends
in
injury to the child, to stop.

Assuming you believe YOU shouldn't be hit..........

It seems you think wanting pain and humilation to stop even if by
law
for adults is a good thing, but for children, a bad thing if it
stops
by law.

I wonder why? I think you are logic impaired for a reason, but
darned
if I know who. You ever consider it?

Chris C.
TX

I can't imagine that any of the anti spankers here wouldn't much
prefer NO law being writen on spanking. They are just realists,
understand history, and recognize the same kind of preservation of
privilege that spanking is as were other exploitations and
humilations
of humans in the past.

A few slave owners freed their slaves...very few...and few more
freed
a few slaves (I put YOU in that category....an apologist and fake
abolishionist)...but the vast majority of slaves, just like the 90%
+
children in this country, were not going to enjoy freedom until
there
was a bloodly campaign to break slave owner's privilege.

Between abolishionists and states rights pro-slave which would YOU
have been?

A northerner that said, "let them all make up their own minds?"

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message
. com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a
discipline
tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both to
the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work
without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed that
the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or
seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have the
same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands of
their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to
high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children.
This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence
in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average
eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy.
Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families
occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in
the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM, Hamblen
JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as adults
and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking and
the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they
would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive
methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of
punishment
be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy
Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/

On 28 Feb 2004 17:18:09 -0800, (Chris C.) wrote:

Fern and other independent thinkers,

Notice the "clique" wannabee pulls out the cross-posts to isolate
rather than broaden the discussions.--

Odd, I'm treated all to often to the spectical of neo-facists trying
to find others of their kind to bash anyone they disagree with.

Typical neo-liberal tactics (no
guts to debate in the open using basic guidelines---typical
non-academic).

Well, I notice you didn't attract anyone by your crossposting, now did
you?

Inviting folks from a "republican" labeled news group to a spanking
debate...naw, nothin' craft in that, now is there?

Just bullies lookin' for backin' from other bullies.

Non-spanker by choice,
Chris C.
TX

Why don't yah go read Sugenor and whack off.

And call for your friends. We haven't done a good asswhuppin' around
here in a long time...three or four days so far.

Bring'em on. I looooove the arguments and debate of those that got
whacked too high up the backside too often by their parents. Naturally
occuring reactionary ******s.

Kane



(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:46:02 GMT, "billy f"
wrote:

I wish I had the time to wite a book

Maybe you should write one: "How Spanking Compulsives Lost Out to
the
Children of the Non-punishing Parents."

everytime I sent a message in a group
like Kane does.

I am extremely fast on the keyboard.

But just so we won't tax your reading ability, I'll keep this short
and sweet. You yahoos are losing. There, simple enough for you?

Your post are so long, most the time I never even finish
reading them.

Reading speed and comprehension problems? Musta not been spanked
enough.

Do you have anything better to do than spend your day debating
spanking?

Not a question of what is better and what not. I don't rank my
efforts
that way much.

And what's really to debate? It's mostly just showing you spanking
compulsives up for the self deluded fools, liars, and neutrotically
vicious folks you are. There's no real debate here from you
ninnies.

Look at Droany. Just dodgin' for weeks now. Won't answer simple
straight requests, even dodges when he's made a claim and is
challenged on it.

This isn't debating, billybob.

It's the whining of the spanked.

Get a life!

I did when I decided that children should not be hurt as a matter
of
course in parenting. There's enough hurt in the world parents don't
need to add to it.

I found out there were other ways of raising a child.

Here's a number of them, some never spanking, some reformed. Must
all
be wrong, eh? Personally I've known non-spanking, non-punishment
method parents and children now for over 40 years, and the children
consistently turn out wonderfully: non-violent, productive, happy,
and
a joy to have for children and friends....and I'm not talking two
of
them, but scores.

And I'm getting to watch two other generations do the same thing.
We
are going to take the planet away from you yahoos. Unspanked
children
tend to be very patient, intelligent, and good planners and
tacticians. Very little in the way of neurotic self delusion to get
in
the way, you see.

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

This is "the enemy," poor little whiny billybob.

http://atlc.org/index.php

And this is just one of the ways we are doing it.

Even among spankers, the successful child is rarely spanked at all.
And the myth of the evil, criminal, violent unpunished child is
that...just a myth.

Have a good life, and remember, you and your kids are going to lose
out because of your compulsion to spank.

Pass it on. R R R R R

Kane



"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On 24 Feb 2004 13:47:26 -0800, (Chris C.)
wrote:

And cross posted to groups Chris C. hoped would come galloping
to
the
rescue...many spanking compulsives out there in those ngs Chris
C.?

What the "cohort" fails to mention is that their real agenda
isn't
to
educate parents about not using "reasonable force",

Our real agenda is to take over the WOOOOOORRRRLLLLLLLLDDDDD,
and
make
you spanking compulsives watch children grow up non-violent,
productive free of substance abuse, and reaching more of their
potential, and grinding your teeth. I think we'll probably have
to
lock you in cages...I know you sometimes rage now and lie like
rugs
when you see happy unpunished children thriving.

Makes yah nuts, dudnit? R R R R R R

which is currently
acceptable use of force to maintain a safe home or school
environment
(supported in the US courts)

Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery. There is NO such case law or
SC
decision that does that. There is a single case you silly
fundaments
keep citing that was NOT about parental or school rights to
spank,
but
was in fact a matter of whether or not a child had been abused
by
spanking and could or could not sue.

The law already says schools can spanking and so can
parents...but
states have limits and that was a single state, not the US.

but to over-turn the laws through local
efforts.

Gosh, sounds like we are arming for insurrection. Do you know
any
anti-spank folks that are that rapid? Or do you think we might
just
use the exisiting processes patently but energetically and drive
you
poor things MAD MAD MAD as we march closer and closer?

Recently in Houston, TX they attempted to do so. Of course
they failed.

You seem a tad paranoid? It's odd that you'd think spanking
folks
are
the level headed ones, and that those that do not wish to see
children
subjected to CP, pain and humilation, are the "cohort" with
secret
evil motives.

Just define "reasonable force" in applicable terms so that
people
know
how little or how much force to use for legal CP and you've got
a
convert here.

And please, no more of this silly, "well if you can't tell the
difference," and the courts decide. Yah betcha they do.....after
the
fact of injure. Kinda little late. But right in line with what
some
non-spanking folks are asking for...the courts to decide. You
keep
pushing to the courts and you'll get a Canadian solution.

You can't define "reasonable force," and no one else can. The
Canadians have cut it down to the bone...trifling and
transistory
and
no child two and under and none of 16. Looks like the definition
for
"reasonable" in CP is moving downward.

How do you like them apples, bubbah? Trifling and
transistory...sounds
like a love tap to me..and there WILL be test cases and there
will
be
further constraint's on the spankers. Imagine those church folks
up
there getting away now with what The Plant defended....R R R R

Do you suppose it was us "cohort" that influenced that? R R R R
R

Over-turning "reasonable force" statutes (better known as CP)

So you too are going to try to answer The Question with
"reasonable"
eh? Everyone in the world could say "reasonable" but no one can
point
to the amount, even with close approximation that would not risk
injury...if not physical, psychic.

Give it a try.

would
mean further undermining the safety of the family

Yah know. I agree. Families that us CP are far more likely to
than
families that don't use any punishment of any kind, verbal or
physical, to produce a child they might have to defend
themselves
from
and from each other. Happens all the time.

Great self fulfilling prophecy. The spanking compulsives get to
pretend all kids are that way and claim we non-punishers can't
"control" our children and they'll all turn into druggies and
criminals.

The only kids I've ever visited in jail were spanked children.
I've
never know an unspanked child to be in prison. Must be some
somewhere.
Would you mind checking the TX prisons for us.

and those that work
with our children.

I think you are right. People that work with your children had
best
learn some good martial arts skills. They need them working with
children that have been turned into reactive little frightened
and
rage filled beasts. Sad, isn't it?

But the we didn't need to "overturn" laws in Canada and you
folks
that
are spanking compulsives (active spankers or not) are inviting
the
Canadian solution......a decision at the federal level.

Tell me you don't want the feds in MORE state's business,
please.
I'd
hate to think you are entirely without wit?

This would include stopping a child from harming
himself/herself

How would it do that? I can stop a child easily without hitting
them.
I did it all the time from infant to teen with my own and with
other
peoples children in mental health facilities. I used LESS force
than
any other person there that did line work with children, I ended
up
teaching the simple skills (more a mindset thing than any
complicated
set of actions).

My kids had an extremely low incidence of self harm or harm to
others.
They simply never got filled with rage from my humiliating or
injuring
them. Happy kids. And productive. And busy. And intelligent. And
fun
to be with. Still are, in their 40s.

or others and property destruction issues.

Nonsense. Male Bovine Excrement in Pottery.

Same applies as above. Children that are raised with gentleness
and
a
mind to supporting their development progess/exploration learn
quickly
there isn't anything to worry about...they'll get their needs
met
without having to go nutso under the hand of a spanker. They
don't
need no steeeein' neurosis.

Keeping a
child out of the street

If Doan makes it by tomorrow morning you will be treated to the
content, debate wise, of the study report that Dr. Dennis Embry
was
quoted in a parent's magazine about. The study is 25 years + -
and
still valid. Children went into the street or toward LESS with
the
lest punitive methods, and came close to zero entries when they
were
instructed structed and positively reinforced for following the
instructions. And you'd be amazed at the sample demographics.
These
weren't easy kids that had already had non-punitive methods
used.

or even the use of therpeutic restraint.

YOU might be confused between spanking as in hitting, switching,
strapping, paddling, and all the other euphonisms for assault of
a
child and therapeutic restraint, but I am not and neither is the
court, or anyone else, other than desperate spanking compulsives
that
they might lose their hobby and relief valve.

Breaking up a fight, which has already lead to legal actions
against
those that work with children,

Unless something else was up the courts were wrong. Probably a
jury
of
saps that could be conned into confusing the issue....or you are
leaving a few things out.

would be further complicated with their
efforts.

And did they lose? If so you wouldn't mind citing would you,
just
so
we can check and see what ALL the circumstances were?

You could now be sued of fired for acting or failure to act.

Hogwash.

YOU CAN BE SUED FOR BLINKING TOO FAST AT SOMEONE AND TRIGGERING
A
SEIZURE...R R R , in other words, suits are based on one's
actions,
but on another's perceptions of ones actions. What a silly
argument.

What you need to make a claim for, to be credible, is that we
can
be
criminally charged.

Try to make that one fly.

A cop can sit in her patrol car and watch you beaten to a pulp
and
do
nothing. No crimimal charge can be brought and suit would fail
on
caselaw.

Time after time some sucker has bitten on that one and paid a
retainer
only to discover it was money down the drain.

And YOU, and I are NOT required to save peoples lives.

Try to bring criminal charges against anyone that is loco
parentis
of
a child that didn't cause the injury death themselves. Look it
up.

This, of course, is no secret to the clique.

Of course not. We know it to all be just a silly construct of
the
spanking compulsives. Seen it for years. Never washed before,
won't
now.

Spanking's going down, Cris C in Tx


***Alternative they ignore---

Now that is a flat out lie. I haven't seen a single person in
this
ng
that advocates for non-spanking that hasn't contributed links
and
or
citations to just such alternatives. And or commentary on better
methods.

Go ahead, name me one, you who hardly blows. I'll name you half
a
dozen pdq that do so advocate.

Support educating parents to the
alternatives

Been done. There are tons of book. Courses. Easy to access.
Parks
departments include such things in parenting courses, community
colleges, PET, STEP, a dozen more in the last two decades. Many
are
cheap or free when sponsored by public agencies and a few
private
ones
as well. Even businesses big enough to offer and provide child
care
pay for free parent trainings.

so that they make the best decisions for themselves--

Yep. Many chose not to make a change no matter how attractive
the
offer. They are compulsives and strongly bonded to the
activities
and
habits around assaulting a child. They do NOT line up at the
sign
in
table for parenting classes.

not
creating laws that take control away from local courts and
communities.

Yeah, black Americans went for a century waiting for things to
progess. Patience the were told. Even their parents told them
patience.

I guess they figgered, sort of like us non-spanking "cohort" and
"clique," that nothing much is going to happen. That the
non-bigots
already are non-bigots and there's only those who hang on to the
old
outmoded savagry left....and offering them classes in
understanding
racial bigotry didn't seem to make much headway....unless one
wanted
to wait 500 years more.

Now if you want to inspire us to that kind of activism go ahead
and
keep lying to yourself, and about us. Me, I've got a strong
stomach
and do not want to have a law. I WANT parents to decide to stop
the
carnage on their own, but you folks could corrupt a saint.

Non-spanker by choice,

Yep, which you proudly display while giving tacit permission to
others
to spank...not to make a choice....but to continue NOT
considering
any
other choice.

You put that after your name to let yourself off the hook with
your
own conscience and so that you can stand for choice...yet I've
never
seen you post one thing pointing directly to alternatives as
useful.

Yah kinda forgot that in your little years long tirade, no?

What I wrote below stands. And there is no evil cohort or clique
threatening parents. We simple want the assault, that so often
ends
in
injury to the child, to stop.

Assuming you believe YOU shouldn't be hit..........

It seems you think wanting pain and humilation to stop even if
by
law
for adults is a good thing, but for children, a bad thing if it
stops
by law.

I wonder why? I think you are logic impaired for a reason, but
darned
if I know who. You ever consider it?

Chris C.
TX

I can't imagine that any of the anti spankers here wouldn't much
prefer NO law being writen on spanking. They are just realists,
understand history, and recognize the same kind of preservation
of
privilege that spanking is as were other exploitations and
humilations
of humans in the past.

A few slave owners freed their slaves...very few...and few more
freed
a few slaves (I put YOU in that category....an apologist and
fake
abolishionist)...but the vast majority of slaves, just like the
90%
+
children in this country, were not going to enjoy freedom until
there
was a bloodly campaign to break slave owner's privilege.

Between abolishionists and states rights pro-slave which would
YOU
have been?

A northerner that said, "let them all make up their own minds?"

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message
. com...
When people defend the choice of parents to spank as a
discipline
tool
it would be fair to those parents to mention the risks, both
to
the
child and the parent themselves, and additionally, to
society.

When one attacks the alternatives by claiming they don't work
without
noting that there are two classifications of alternatives to
CP,
punitive and non-punitive discipline, it has to be assumed
that
the
claimant either is unaware of the non-punitive methods or
seriously
wishes to contend and defend that non-punitive methods have
the
same
result as punitive methods.

From:

http://www.stopspanking.com/

"At least 1,200 children are killed every year at the hands
of
their
parents in the name of physical punishment"

Eighty Five percent of parents surveyed expressed moderate to
high
anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children.
This
challenges the notion that parents can spank in a calm,
planned
manner. (Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive
violence
in
child rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848 )

Half of all 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an
average
eight
times per year. (Eron LD. Research and public policy.
Pediatrics.
1996;98:821-823)

Corporal punishment in two-parent, middle class families
occurred
weekly in 25%, caused considerable pain at times in 12%, and
inflicted lasting marks at times in 5%. Striking children in
the
abusive range is neither rare nor confined to families of
lower
socioeconomic class, as has been asserted. (Graziano AM,
Hamblen
JL,
Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child rearing in
middle-class
American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848 )

The more children are hit, the more anger they report as
adults
and
the more they hit their own children. (Straus MA. Spanking
and
the
making of a violent society. Pediatrics. 1996;98:837-842)

Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they
would
rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed.
(Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in
child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics.
1996;98:845-848)

Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of
corporal
punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive
methods.
(Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of
punishment
be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836)

Note: Most of these Statistics were drawn from the Policy
Statement
(Guidance for Effective Discipline (RE9740) of the
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

http://www.stopspanking.com/