CPS casewrkrs trained to bluff: 10 helpful family hints CPS intrusions

The Social Worker At Your Door: 10 Helpful Hints



By Christopher J. Klicka, Senior Counsel for the
Home School Legal Defense Association

More and more frequently, home schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines
to social service agencies. Families who do not like home schoolers can make an
anonymous phone call to the child abuse hotline and fabricate abuse stories
about home schoolers. The social worker then has an obligation to investigate.
Each state has a different policy for social workers, but generally they want
to come into the family's home and speak with the children separately. To allow
either of these to occur involves great risk to the family.


The home school parent, however, should be very cautious when an individual
identifies himself as a social worker. In fact, there are several tips that a
family should follow:






Always get the business card of the social worker. This way, when you call your
attorney or Home School Legal Defense Association, if you are a member, the
attorney will be able to contact the social worker on your behalf. If the
situation is hostile, HSLDA members should immediately call our office and hand
the phone out the door so an HSLDA lawyer can talk to the social worker. We
have a 24 hour emergency number.


Find out the allegations. Do not fall for the frequently used tactic of the
social worker who would tell the unsuspecting victims that they can only give
you the allegations after they have come into your home and spoken to your
child separately. You generally have the right to know the allegations without
allowing them in your home.


Never let the social worker in your house without a warrant or court order. All
the cases that you have heard about where children are snatched from the home
usually involve families waiving their Fourth Amendment right to be free from
such searches and seizures by agreeing to allow the social worker to come
inside the home. A warrant requires "probable cause" which does not include an
anonymous tip or a mere suspicion. This is guaranteed under the Fourth
Amendment of the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the courts. (In extremely
rare situations, police may enter a home without a warrant if there are exigent
circumstances, i.e., police are aware of immediate danger or harm to the
child.)

However, in some instances, social workers or police threaten to use force to
come into a home. If you encounter a situation which escalates to this level,
record the conversation if at all possible, but be sure to inform the police
officer or social worker that you are doing this. If entry is going to be made
under duress you should say and do the following: "I am closing my front door,
but it is unlocked. I will not physically prevent you from entering, and I will
not physically resist you in any way. But you do not have my permission to
enter. If you open my door and enter, you do so without my consent, and I will
seek legal action for an illegal entry."



Never let the social worker talk to your children alone without a court order.
On nearly every other incident concerning our members, HSLDA has been able to
keep the social worker away from the children. On a few occasions, social
workers have been allowed to talk with children, particularly where severe
allegations are involved. In these instances, an attorney, chosen by the
parent, has been present. At other times, HSLDA had children stand by the door
and greet the social worker, but not be subject to any questioning.


Tell the official that you will call back after you speak with your attorney.
Call your attorney or HSLDA, if you are a member.


Ignore intimidations. Normally, social workers are trained to bluff. They will
routinely threaten to acquire a court order, knowing full well that there is no
evidence on which to secure an order. In 98 percent of the contacts that HSLDA
handles, the threats turn out to be bluffs. However, it is always important to
secure an attorney in these matters, since there are occasions where social
workers are able to obtain a court order with flimsy evidence. HSLDA members
should call our office in such situations.


Offer to give the officials the following supporting evidence:


a statement from your doctor, after he has examined your children, if the
allegations involve some type of physical abuse;


references from individuals who can vouch for your being good parents;


evidence of the legality of your home school program. If your home school is an
issue, HSLDA attorneys routinely assist member families by convincing social
workers of this aspect of an investigation.


Bring a tape recorder and/or witnesses to any subsequent meeting. Often times
HSLDA will arrange a meeting between the social worker and our member family
after preparing the parents on what to discuss and what not to discuss. The
discussion at the meeting should be limited to the specific allegations and you
should avoid telling them about past events beyond what they know. Usually,
anonymous tips are all they have to go on, which is not sufficient to take
someone to court. What you give them can and will be used against you.


Inform your church, and put the investigation on your prayer chain. Over and
over again, HSLDA has seen God deliver home schoolers from this scary scenario.


Avoid potential situations that could lead to a child welfare investigation.


Conduct public relations with your immediate neighbors and acquaintances
regarding the legality and success of home schooling.


Do not spank children in public.


Do not spank someone else's child unless they are close Christian friends.


Avoid leaving young children at home alone.

In order for a social worker to get a warrant to come and enter a home and
interview children separately, he is normally required, by both statute and the
U.S. Constitution, to prove that there is some "cause." This is a term that is
synonymous with the term "probable cause". "Probable cause" or cause shown is
reliable evidence that must be corroborated by other evidence if the tip is
anonymous. In other words, an anonymous tip alone and mere suspicion is not
enough for a social worker to obtain a warrant.


There have been some home-schooled families who have been faced with a warrant
even though there was not probable cause. HSLDA has been able to overturn these
in court so that the order to enter the home was never carried out. Home School
Legal Defense Association is committed to defending every member family who is
being investigated by social workers, provided the allegations involve home
schooling. In instances when the allegations have nothing to do with home
schooling, HSLDA will routinely counsel most member families on how to meet
with the social worker and will talk to the social worker to try to resolve the
situation. If it cannot be resolved, which it normally can be in most instances
by HSLDA's involvement, the family is responsible for hiring their own
attorney.


HSLDA is beginning to work with states to reform the child welfare laws to
guarantee more freedom for parents and better protection for their parental
rights. HSLDA will be sending out Alerts to its members in various states where
such legislation is drafted and submitted as a bill.


For further information on how to deal with social workers, HSLDA recommends
Home Schooling: The Right Choice, which was written with the intention of
informing home school parents of their rights in order to prevent them from
becoming a statistic. Federal statistics have shown that up to 60 percent of
children removed from homes, upon later review, should never have been removed.
The child welfare system is out of control, and we need to be prepared. To
obtain The Right Choice or join the Home School Legal Defense Association, call
540-338-5600, or write HSLDA, P.O. Box 3000, Purcellville, VA 20134.







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[posted and e-mailed]

On 19 Mar 2004 15:25:57 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

==The Social Worker At Your Door: 10 Helpful Hints
==
==By Christopher J. Klicka, Senior Counsel for the
==Home School Legal Defense Association

[snip]

==Do not spank children in public.

Exactly. Abuse them in private, like the dirty little
secret it is.

==Do not spank someone else's child unless they are close Christian friends.

What kind of miscreants does this group think it is
addressing, people who would even _contemplate_
"spanking" someone else's child?

And note the acknowledgement that it is Christians
who can be counted on to beat their children.
It certainly reinforces the notion, does it not,
that children of Christians are far more likely
than children of non-Christians to be beaten and
abused (which is why they are far more likely to grow
up to be abusers themselves and continue the cycle).

Is anyone investigating this organization?

==Avoid leaving young children at home alone.

"AVOID leaving young children at home alone"?!

This organization thinks it needs to advise its
members to AVOID leaving young children to their
own devices?

This group obviously knows its members are criminally
negligent assholes, or astonishingly stupid. Imagine
thinking that it's necessary to advise people not to
leave young children home alone.

In most jurisdictions it's illegal to leave young
children home alone -- an offence that, rightly,
can get the kids removed from the home and
the caregiver(s) slapped with criminal charges.

To quote Kelly Bundy, the mind wobbles.

The Home School Legal Defense Association is
patently aware that its members are not only
hopelessly incompetent parents who are,
without advice to the contrary, apt to leave young
children without supervision, but child abusers
who not only beat their own children, but are inclined
to beat OTHER people's children as well.

I've never seen stronger evidence for the proposition
that home-schooling is, for a frightening number of
people, an excuse for setting up a refuge where they
may abuse and brainwash their children, safe
from the prying eyes of their neighbours and other
people who value the safety and welfare of society's
most vulnerable members.

I hope this subversive little screed has come to the
attention of authorities, and persuades them that much
more intense scrutiny of home-schoolers is required.

As a start, I would suggest that it may be time to
consider arming child-protection officials with
permanent, transferrable warrants empowering them
to enter any home-schooling venue and examine any
child found there for signs of abuse.

The home-schooling industry is obviously busy
training its members in how to brutalize their
children and get away with it. Those who care
for the welfare of children must counter it by
whatever means necessary.

I will be forwarding the HSLDA's "10 helpful hints"
to the attorney general of every state in the union,
so they know just what kind of evil mother****ers
lurk in their jurisdictions.

The stars help our children, with these kind of
monsters out and about.



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 18:40:25 -0500, Ivan Gowch
wrote:

[posted and e-mailed]

On 19 Mar 2004 15:25:57 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

==The Social Worker At Your Door: 10 Helpful Hints
==
==By Christopher J. Klicka, Senior Counsel for the
==Home School Legal Defense Association

[snip]

==Do not spank children in public.

Exactly. Abuse them in private, like the dirty little
secret it is.
They know, somewhere in the dim recesses of their compulsive
ignorance, that it is very very wrong to hit children. All the things
done to them as children compells them not only to do these things,
but to cover it up even from themselves.

==Do not spank someone else's child unless they are close Christian
friends.

What Chris just did was give permission to people to commit assault
The law does NOT give others the right to spank, it simply protects
PARENTS. For an attorney he seems to leave just a bit, a tad, a
smidgeon to be desired.

But then following such advice might just result in more cases for
attorneys...really high paying ones...assault of a child is a very
serious matter, legally.

Some church members found that out the hard way. No, not in civil
court. In criminal court.

What kind of miscreants does this group think it is
addressing, people who would even _contemplate_
"spanking" someone else's child?

You need to do some research. There is ample.

Try a google on Mike Farris, the leader of the pack, combined with
Christian Reconstructionism.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...oogl e+Search

As for HSLDA and its supposed "homeschool" defense, order up their
membership form. Read it. This isn't a legal defense "association," as
in you have any guarantee they will defend you. They are very careful
to say only in homeschooling matters. It's a powerful multimillion
dollar pump into the pockets of the leaders...who are also rabidly
ambitious politicians, or at least one is.

It helps if you read up. I'll give you a place to start.

http://www.hslda.us/represent.htm

This outfit is the angry outraged screaming target for decent
christians, and homeschoolers not affiliated with them. They no more
represent the mainstream homeschooler than there is a real Tooth
Fairy. They laid about that, baldfaced, when their OWN membership
figures show them to have likely less than a fourth of all
homeschoolers as members. Potent, but by far, NOT the majority.

They are despised by the mainstream homeschoolers. One of their
tactics (after priming their membership to call them when any state
homeschooling legislation is coming up) is to show up to "help" the
homeschoolers in states where legislation is being considered. They
of course claim that "homeschoolers" called and asked for assistance.

Pure unadulterated shilling. It's a very powerful political machine,
but not based on the work and dedication of real homeschoolers.

They break into the carefully developed, decades long, relationship
between legislators and the REAL homeschool leaders in that state, and
they make political deals with the politicians that winds up
diminishing the protections for homeschoolers. I presume so they can
post on their website, as I have read a nubmer of times, they THEY
saved the day, and that the state homeschool associate was "there to
lend assistance" or some other phony balogna BS.

We are talking homeschooling leaders with decades of experience and
hard work to provide both services for homeschoolers, but skilled
political leadership.

And note the acknowledgement that it is Christians
who can be counted on to beat their children.
It certainly reinforces the notion, does it not,
that children of Christians are far more likely
than children of non-Christians to be beaten and
abused (which is why they are far more likely to grow
up to be abusers themselves and continue the cycle).

This message comes to you from a fundy right organization. Do you
really thnk (and remember, I'm an atheist) that the normal Christian
community condones CP. Look at the Lawrences website,

http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org

This represents the thinking and intent of a good many Christians. I'm
no more willing to characterize this group as all having the same
intent as I would do so for any other group.

Is anyone investigating this organization?

Big time. And for some time.

http://www.gomilpitas.com/homeschool...les/102299.htm

If you are looking for a "homeschooling industry" to point out HSLDA
would certianly be it. The real homeschoolers come from a very
different place politically. They are not interested in "political"
power for it's own sake. They are reluctant to ingage in anyway
politically on any of the hot issues...abortion, CPS, anti government
nonsense.

These are mostly folks that simply wish to make a choice about how to
educate their children, and they do remarkably well at it...in fact in
many instances equalling PS.

==Avoid leaving young children at home alone.

"AVOID leaving young children at home alone"?!

This organization thinks it needs to advise its
members to AVOID leaving young children to their
own devices?

No, you haven't researched them sufficiently. They speak in code. It's
based on their membership recruitment number one fear mongering. It's
about CPS coming to talk with their children....pretending that
homeschoolers are in any more danger from CPS than other families.

This group obviously knows its members are criminally
negligent assholes, or astonishingly stupid.

No, they just are predominately fundies. And predominately right wing.
The two aren't the same, so I discriminate.

Some fundy Christians are not rightwing. Though it would likely be
rare.

Imagine
thinking that it's necessary to advise people not to
leave young children home alone.

I have studied the motives and methods of this organization for
decades. Trust me when I say this is just their typical fear
mongering. "CPS gonna getcha"

That nonsense went away some years ago, and I believe the current
activity of the media in reporting so many child deaths, neglect, and
abuses by vicious murderers and abusers that CLAIM they are
homeschooling is in direct response to this kind of fear mongering.

It brings up old ghosts long laid to rest. Homeschoolers, as a
demographic, are among the least abusive and neglectful of parents,
and in fact are fiercely rejecting of those people that do abuse and
claim they "homeschool" when they know that know educational effort is
being done at all.

I spent considerable time disabusing CPS in many states on the reality
of homeschooling and what homeschoolers are about. And especially how
they parent.

I vacation each year with 50 families from all over the US. Some
repeat, some are new. In all the years I've done this I have seen two
families that used CP. They were asked to leave, and the program
director did so with a refund check in hand and clear explanation that
WE homeschoolers do NOT use CP as a rule.

I came to my position partly as a result of associating with other
homeschoolers. The mainstream homeschooler considers a parent that
spanks as having failed.

Here's a website that might interest you and help with understanding
homeschoolers and the pressure both internally (because homeschooling
does something very very special in the relationship between child and
parent...that CP does NOT fit into very well...it takes a fundy
Christian to overcome this natural love between parent and child) and
externally.

This is a homily, even corny website, but for all that it's sincerity
is evident.

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

You'll see, though less exposed to our position, they have some of the
same arguments we do, with the addition of that very special
experience they bring as parents who do so 24/7.

Unschooling, if you aren't familiar with the term, is just a subset of
homeschooling and quite misunderstood. People think it means no
schooling.

On the contrary, Unschoolers are the most dedicated of and hardest
working of all homeschoolers. When we, I was one, relied on the child
to learn, instead of us "teaching" the response was, and still is,
overwhelming.

There were times I had to go back to college, yep literally, and take
courses to keep up with my own kids.

In most jurisdictions it's illegal to leave young
children home alone -- an offence that, rightly,
can get the kids removed from the home and
the caregiver(s) slapped with criminal charges.

To quote Kelly Bundy, the mind wobbles.

The Home School Legal Defense Association is
patently aware that its members are not only
hopelessly incompetent parents who are,
without advice to the contrary, apt to leave young
children without supervision, but child abusers
who not only beat their own children, but are inclined
to beat OTHER people's children as well.

They speak in code to excite the fears of homeschoolers to encourage
them to take out a $100 a year membership. That's about 80,000
members. Do the math. I've heard of some good get rich schemes, but
this one is better than a lottery ticket winning.

They are tax exempt, last I checked.

I've never seen stronger evidence for the proposition
that home-schooling is, for a frightening number of
people, an excuse for setting up a refuge where they
may abuse and brainwash their children, safe
from the prying eyes of their neighbours and other
people who value the safety and welfare of society's
most vulnerable members.

I have had over 40 years of homeschooling experience both as a
practitioner, and as a political advocate. I've associated closely
with homeschoolers since 1960...when it was pretty much an underground
... well, kinda...activity.

And I've seen far more love and concerned parenting in this group than
any other demographic I've come in contact with. Abuse is rare. Those
that do abuse are not real homeschoolers, just scoflaws.

I hope this subversive little screed has come to the
attention of authorities, and persuades them that much
more intense scrutiny of home-schoolers is required.

That is what the aim seems to be. And HSLDA has had a hand in
it...YOUR suggestion. They recently were involved in federal
legislation to amend laws. Look it up. HONDA, was the acronym.

If there was ever a group that need less government oversight than
homeschoolers I can't imagine it. Now HSLDA,....there I agree with
you, but you'll find they have quite a leg up in Washington.

The leader is a failed candidate for governor, but I doubt with no
more political ambitions...and who better than the current crop of our
leaders.

As a start, I would suggest that it may be time to
consider arming child-protection officials with
permanent, transferrable warrants empowering them
to enter any home-schooling venue and examine any
child found there for signs of abuse.

It would be a waste of money. There is no "home-schooling venue." Just
people schooling their children at home, at the local museum,
industrial center, dairy, university (yep, they use such settings when
their kids need them...and ours spent a good deal of time in just such
settings), local skating rink, public swim pools, soccerfields, etc.
Homeschoolers are FAR busier than public school parents in the
eduation of their children.

They simly chose not to live with "testing and assessments,"
"captivity," "Crowding," and "age grouping."

And their children are safe and excelling.

I cannot speak for the fundies of course...as I was not part of that
crowd. But I can't suggest policing them without policing the majority
of homeschoolers.

In all my years I've seen only a couple of cases of abuses by
homeschoolers, and remember, I was privy as an insider to hear and see
a great deal.

The home-schooling industry is obviously busy
training its members in how to brutalize their
children and get away with it.

No, the homeschooling industry is no such thing. Not if you mean the
majority. HSLDA, well decide for yourself, but understand not only are
they not THE homeschooling representatives they claim, and have lied
about, but they are a detested minority.

If you got inside homeschooling you'd find the same kind of
justifiable reaction to HSLDA that we have to spanking compulsives.

As I said, detest.

Those who care
for the welfare of children must counter it by
whatever means necessary.

Not without a fight, and you'd lose on the facts. Homeschoolers are by
and large, NOT child abusers...and in fact have a far lower rate than
society in general. If anything THEY SHOULD BE MONITORING THE SCHOOLS
WHERE SO MUCH ABUSE DOES TAKE PLACE.

Gee, I hope you aren't an NEA member. I could understand your rant on
homeschoolers though if you were. They hate us, apparently, and we are
polite and even supportive of them...just goes to show yah.

I will be forwarding the HSLDA's "10 helpful hints"
to the attorney general of every state in the union,
so they know just what kind of evil mother****ers
lurk in their jurisdictions.

Excellent, but I've already contacted the very same folks on The Rod,
and there is an association between The Rod and HSLDA affilates. Go to
the Lawrences website. Subscribe to their E-mail. They have an ongoing
battle with this issue and they have braced HSLDA about it as well.

The stars help our children, with these kind of
monsters out and about.

Don't get carried away. If I had to leave my kids with anyone on the
planet to care for them it would be homeschoolers, even Christian
ones, over any other group, though I have to admit it most definately
would NOT be with any fundies, or members of HSLDA. If they aren't
part of the problem they most assuradely are fools, and I won't leave
my children with fools.

If you'd like to discuss this with me you know where to find me.

I'll even provide you some material, at my cost. And no, it's
homechooling promotional material. In fact it's authored by those that
do NOT think homeschooling is for everyone, and they do NOT recruit or
look for money from scaring homeschoolers.

And they teach gentle parenting methods.

I'll put it this way. Do you think that all families should be subject
to intrusion of government agents based on HSLDA?

You are asking for that. You just don't see it yet. We'll get that
with HSLDA. They are not what they claim or appear to be, on the
surface. I think they want to BE the government.

Do the research. It's well worth it...and I know the folks who have
collected the facts on HSLDA and they are sound and good people. Just
met with a group of them a couple of weeks ago.

Wanna guess what the major topic was?

The destruction of homeschooling by the HSLDA types. The despise them
with far more informed reason than you do.

But also for some of the same reasons you do.

http://www.hslda.us/exclusive.htm
On the question of HSLDA exclusivity and divisiveness.

http://www.homestead.com/barbooch/WhitePaper2.html
Dr. Moore is an especially venerated homeschool leader with about 50
years of educational experience (including much in the public domain).
Wait until you see what he has to say. And you might want to follow up
with one of if not the preemminate homeschool publications. Home
Education Magazine. HEM. Huge, for homeschooling, distribution.

This is a complex matter between two groups of homeschoolers, HSLDA
affiliated, and non-affiliated.

This war between them has gone on for some time.

The sad thing is that you and others assume HSLDA represents the
mainstream homeschooler.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally I consider HSLDA
as more likely representing the fringe element..as I consider fundy
Christians, that we would dearly like to be rid of ..but hey, this is
America. We'll just watch them fade out as they faded in.

Kane

On 21 Mar 2004 20:59:55 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

[humoungous snip]

==The sad thing is that you and others assume HSLDA represents the
==mainstream homeschooler.

Actually, I don't. If I ever did, you disabused me
of that notion quite a while ago in conversations
we've had about this previously.

I accept without question your assurance that
a large number of home-school parents are
kind, gentle, caring folks who don't abuse their
kids and are home-schooling for the best of
reasons.

And still . . . I believe experience has taught
society to be highly suspicious of parents who
go through extraordinary lengths to keep their
children away from public schools.

I -- and a goodly number of professional educators
-- am also extremely uneasy with the idea of
children being isolated from social interactions
with their mainstream peers and the hurly-burly of
public school activities and the diverse mix of
ideas and attitudes to be found there.

I also have grave doubts about the benefit to
children of keeping them in the hothouse
atmosphere of home, even more dependent than
is usually the case on their parents' ideas and
attitudes.

Compulsory public education has been a major
factor in the technological and scientific advances of
the past century or so. And although I don't doubt
that some home-schooling parents are able to provide
their offspring with an adequate -- and yes, perhaps
even superior -- education, society has a legitimate
interest in seeing that all its children receive a
decent education and are raised in an atmosphere
free of abuse.

I think, therefore, that any jurisdiction that permits
home-schooling should, at the very least, require
regular inspections of both the home where the
schooling takes place, and of the children themselves,
to ensure that their intellects and critical faculties
are not being damaged by nutcase parents/teachers
who want their children/pupils to believe that the
world is only 6,000 years old, or that the only thing
they need be concerned with is being ready for the
Armageddon which is just around the corner.

I know that not all -- maybe not even most --
home-schooling parents are that crazy, but there
surely are enough of them for society to be wary.

We have enough religion-addled, deluded fools
walking around as it is. We should do what we can
to prevent the home-schooling movement from swelling
the ranks of the army of poorly educated religious
zombies who know more about the Bible than about
world history and are therefore apt to vote for the
likes of George W. Bush (or, heaven help us, Jeb).

Cheers.



--

The virtue most often rewarded is patience.
-Ivan Gowch

Kane wrote:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 18:40:25 -0500, Ivan Gowch
wrote:


[posted and e-mailed]

On 19 Mar 2004 15:25:57 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

==The Social Worker At Your Door: 10 Helpful Hints
==
==By Christopher J. Klicka, Senior Counsel for the
==Home School Legal Defense Association

[snip]

==Do not spank children in public.

Exactly. Abuse them in private, like the dirty little
secret it is.

They know, somewhere in the dim recesses of their compulsive
ignorance, that it is very very wrong to hit children. All the things
done to them as children compells them not only to do these things,
but to cover it up even from themselves.

My great-grandmother lived with me when I was a child. I remember my
parents waiting until grandma was asleep, closing the windows, and
taking me downstairs in the laundry room with the door closed to muffle
my screams.

LaVonne

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:
My great-grandmother lived with me when I was a child. I remember my
parents waiting until grandma was asleep, closing the windows, and
taking me downstairs in the laundry room with the door closed to muffle
my screams.

LaVonne


I feel your pain! ;-)

Doan

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:29:14 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:
My great-grandmother lived with me when I was a child. I remember
my
parents waiting until grandma was asleep, closing the windows, and
taking me downstairs in the laundry room with the door closed to
muffle
my screams.

LaVonne


I feel your pain! ;-)

Okay, what's it like? Describe it for us. Let's see if you have any
capacity for empathy.

Doan

The spanked child demonstrates the prime trait, the dangerous to
humanity trait, that is part of the experience of being spanked:
suppression of the capacity for ethics and morals based on empathy...a
built in human trait.

I can describe, and likely to the tee, what LaVonne was feeling as a
child. And while describing it, I can feel some of it myself, as a
personal experience..even though I was not there, and I am not her.

If you think about what LaVonne described can you actually feel the
terror of the child, feel the body sensations of terror, and injury to
flesh?

Do you think you might be missing an essential human trait?

Kane

PS, LaVonne, my apologies for using your experience publically. Kane

On 22 Mar 2004, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:29:14 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:
My great-grandmother lived with me when I was a child. I remember
my
parents waiting until grandma was asleep, closing the windows, and
taking me downstairs in the laundry room with the door closed to
muffle
my screams.

LaVonne


I feel your pain! ;-)

Okay, what's it like? Describe it for us. Let's see if you have any
capacity for empathy.

Can you describe what chocolate taste like to one who never had chocolate?
;-)

Doan

The spanked child demonstrates the prime trait, the dangerous to
humanity trait, that is part of the experience of being spanked:
suppression of the capacity for ethics and morals based on empathy...a
built in human trait.

Are you talking about LaVonne? :-)

I can describe, and likely to the tee, what LaVonne was feeling as a
child. And while describing it, I can feel some of it myself, as a
personal experience..even though I was not there, and I am not her.

Then please describe it, "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

If you think about what LaVonne described can you actually feel the
terror of the child, feel the body sensations of terror, and injury to
flesh?

Do you think you might be missing an essential human trait?

Only if you are a dog or less, Kane3! :-)

Doan

Wow, Lavoone must have really ticked off her Great Grandmother.

Wonder if she still hates her parents?

Lavoone was chastized as a young girl:

Wonder why?

with me when I was a child. I remember
my
parents waiting until grandma was asleep, closing the windows, and
taking me downstairs in the laundry room with the door closed to
muffle
my screams.

My parents never did. And I loved and respected them. Miss them, too.

Guess you dislike your folks.

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:39:02 -0800, Doan wrote:

On 22 Mar 2004, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:29:14 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:
My great-grandmother lived with me when I was a child. I
remember
my
parents waiting until grandma was asleep, closing the windows,
and
taking me downstairs in the laundry room with the door closed to
muffle
my screams.

LaVonne


I feel your pain! ;-)

Okay, what's it like? Describe it for us. Let's see if you have any
capacity for empathy.

Can you describe what chocolate taste like to one who never had
chocolate?
;-)

Nope. But then this wasn't a food question. You claimed you could feel
her pain. Everyone has felt pain so they do have the knowledge it
takes to feel someone else's, unless they lost that capacity in some
manner.

Doan

The spanked child demonstrates the prime trait, the dangerous to
humanity trait, that is part of the experience of being spanked:
suppression of the capacity for ethics and morals based on
empathy...a
built in human trait.

Are you talking about LaVonne? :-)

No, you. Why do you ask?

I can describe, and likely to the tee, what LaVonne was feeling as
a
child. And while describing it, I can feel some of it myself, as a
personal experience..even though I was not there, and I am not her.

Then please describe it, "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

I didn't make the claim originally. You did. Now, as usual, you are
dancin' and dodgein'.

Your basic ethics impaired through childhood spanking coward.

If you think about what LaVonne described can you actually feel the
terror of the child, feel the body sensations of terror, and injury
to
flesh?

Do you think you might be missing an essential human trait?

Only if you are a dog or less, Kane3! :-)

As I said. You are ethics impaired and just demonstrated it again. You
appearently feel you have no obligation to follow through when you
make claims against another person, even if those are hurtful to that
person.

And you just used a vicious adhom namecalling when no such attack was
made on you. So much for your morals,

Doan

Thanks for the demo, Droany.

Kane