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vaccine safety



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 26th 05, 08:47 PM
nogggin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default vaccine safety

In May, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Imus needs to scandalize a radio audience,

and many controversial authors have milked the issue with books filled
with phony analyses which are frauds or intentionally incomplete.




Am I to believe, then, that any news I hear is lie, because news
sources are interested in increasing viewship?

If not, then which stories are real and which stories are made up
conspiracies? Was Chandra Levy really murdered? Is Cindy Sheehan
really protesting in front of Crawford ranch? Did Michael Jackson
really face trial?

I get my information from various sources. If I discover that a source
has given me information that is later proven to be untrue, then that
source lose credibility with me. How do you decide what to believe?




The supposed "increase" in autism cases is entirely explained by

improved criteria for reporting and categorizing, so there is NO
supposed "vaccination controversy". In other words, it is bogus.




Please site examples of studies which show this to be the case.

I believe that there has been some increase in ASD diagnoses due to
better regnition by doctors, and due to increases in available special
needs programs. However I do not believe that this would explain a
tenfold increase in full blown autism in a deade or two, when other
disorders have not increased at nearly the same rate.


This stuff emerges from antiscientific paranoia among the less than

sufficiently educated portion of the population which believes in all
sorts of hoaxes because of their ignorance, and who believe that all
sorts of plots and criminal motivations are rampant among those who
are a lot smarter than they are, which is a natural response to the
self-recognition of their own intellectual inferiority.



Once again, ad hominem. Insult to the person instead of to the
argument. One day perhaps someone who disagrees with me on this issue
will choose to do so without impugning my intelligence or my sanity.

I am not a scientist. I am not, however, a stupid person. I have an
engineering degree and I was a license engieer in the STate of Ohio
before leaving the work force to raise my children. While this would
not qualify me to effectively judge the methods employed in most
scientific studies, I think that most people would concede that it
would imply that I am not as stupid as a brick. I am intelligent enough
to read and understand conclusions of peer reviewed studies that
support a link. And I am intelligent enough to recognise when the
rhetoric of a group of people has begun to appear not merely defensive
or deceptive, but desperate.





After all, if you had been told in school in a manner that convinced

you, that you were intellectually inferior, wouldn't your natural
paranoia and resentment conclude that therefore the smart kids must
surely be bamboozling you and conniving against you?? And wouldn't
you believe in plots and conspiracies as an adult?? This is because
you were also too stupid to conprehend the effect of scientific peer
review and the competition among the intelligent to produce effective
truth for their OWN purposes in their lives.


I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by
'competition among the intelligent to produce effective truth for their
OWN purposes in their lives'.

What does it mean to 'produce the truth'?

Do you mean that intelligent people will often attempt to manipulate
the perception of truth? Of what other people will believe to be the
truth?

I am quite intelligent enough to understand that this happens.



Conspiracies cannot exist

in those circumstances. Why would you imagine the smart kids could
lie to you, when they can't successfully lie to each other without
being shouted down publically for it???

I believe that people lie to each other. I also believe that groups of
people will often circle the wagons in order to protect the lies of
their group. (This would explain in large part I believe the success of
regimes such as the one that the US is currently attempting to depose
in Iraq. Perhaps a discussion with someone there who's had their child
disappear would help a person to understand why people are often quite
willing to publically shout out lies, and why people quite often are
reluctant to speak the truth.)

  #2  
Old August 27th 05, 08:40 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nogggin wrote:

In May, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Imus needs to scandalize a radio audience,

and many controversial authors have milked the issue with books filled
with phony analyses which are frauds or intentionally incomplete.

Am I to believe, then, that any news I hear is lie, because news
sources are interested in increasing viewship?

-------------------------------
You shouldn't BELIEVE any of it, you must have that doubt!


If not, then which stories are real and which stories are made up
conspiracies? Was Chandra Levy really murdered? Is Cindy Sheehan
really protesting in front of Crawford ranch? Did Michael Jackson
really face trial?

----------------------------------
You have to use your good sense. Who ELSE says the same, and what
are THEIR motives, etc.


I get my information from various sources. If I discover that a source
has given me information that is later proven to be untrue, then that
source lose credibility with me. How do you decide what to believe?

--------------------------------------
By what is reasonable and sensible to believe based on the motives
of the speaker.


The supposed "increase" in autism cases is entirely explained by

improved criteria for reporting and categorizing, so there is NO
supposed "vaccination controversy". In other words, it is bogus.

Please site examples of studies which show this to be the case.

---------------------------------------
I don't do cites, go find the actual approved, authorized peer-review
journals of all the medical schools. I did. You do your OWN homework,
and then you'll know what *I* know, unless you're stupid, or have an
ulterior motive!And then there's no help for you anyway!


I believe that there has been some increase in ASD diagnoses due to
better regnition by doctors, and due to increases in available special
needs programs. However I do not believe that this would explain a
tenfold increase in full blown autism in a deade or two, when other
disorders have not increased at nearly the same rate.

------------------------------------
You need education. You "believe" several things here, explicit and
implied, that are bogus. There is NO "ten-fold" increase, or we'd
be absolutely swimming in special needs children. Nor did anyone say
that ALL apparent increases are accounted for by new diagnostic tools
or criteria, but together, the changes in medicine regarding autism
account for virtually all of it.


This stuff emerges from antiscientific paranoia among the less than

sufficiently educated portion of the population which believes in all
sorts of hoaxes because of their ignorance, and who believe that all
sorts of plots and criminal motivations are rampant among those who
are a lot smarter than they are, which is a natural response to the
self-recognition of their own intellectual inferiority.

Once again, ad hominem. Insult to the person instead of to the
argument.

-----------------------
When there is no "argument" all that remains which we can assault IS
the idiot. And that IS a VERY important thing to do, to leave the kind
of lying ill-educated idiots and their misinformed preconceived
ulteriorly motivated argument so inundated with ad hominem assault
that they shut the **** up before they misinform people who really
ARE so ****ing stupid that they'll believe them!!


One day perhaps someone who disagrees with me on this issue
will choose to do so without impugning my intelligence or my sanity.

------------------------------
If they do so they will be leaving themselves open to being
mistreated by such an idiot as yourself by granting you an audience
you certainly do NOT deserve.


I am not a scientist. I am not, however, a stupid person.

-----------------------------
HAH! Of course you are, that's the definition of stupid to the
scientist, a NON-scientist, the idiot who is not versed in the study
of how Truth is determined and can be established!!

Any scientist I know will give me that look, you know, the one that
says, "What a ****ing ignorant clown that guy is"!! I should know
since I AM a scientist!


I have an
engineering degree and I was a license engieer in the STate of Ohio
before leaving the work force to raise my children.

-------------------------------
Then you should know better than to make such a stupid statement!
The things they're calling educated people these days! Engineers
are becoming one-trick ponies instead of Renaissance people! I'll
bet you don't even fathom Statistical Methods and Theory of Science
beyond a nodding acquaintance! And to think, you were supposedly
trained to deal with the world of MEASUREMENT!!


While this would
not qualify me to effectively judge the methods employed in most
scientific studies, I think that most people would concede that it
would imply that I am not as stupid as a brick. I am intelligent enough
to read and understand conclusions of peer reviewed studies that
support a link. And I am intelligent enough to recognise when the
rhetoric of a group of people has begun to appear not merely defensive
or deceptive, but desperate.

--------------------------------
As are all the autism cranks lately. We've coddled the **** out of
them and redone studies and re-evaluated previous studies in the range
of cost of tens of millions of dollars for this society, and when
the results come out the same they WHINE that there must be some
COVER-UP!! This is classic paranoia of the under-educated of the
educated!! There's no help for these morons! This is the same as
all previous popular movements that have been anti-Science, and
anti-Technology, even anti-Education! Such people should be made to
shut up by court order until such time as they go graduate and become
accredited to speak publically on this subject!


After all, if you had been told in school in a manner that convinced

you, that you were intellectually inferior, wouldn't your natural
paranoia and resentment conclude that therefore the smart kids must
surely be bamboozling you and conniving against you?? And wouldn't
you believe in plots and conspiracies as an adult?? This is because
you were also too stupid to conprehend the effect of scientific peer
review and the competition among the intelligent to produce effective
truth for their OWN purposes in their lives.

I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by
'competition among the intelligent to produce effective truth for their
OWN purposes in their lives'.

-----------------------------------------
This is intended to remind the reader that the intelligent people
ALSO disagree, and cannot sustain some fifth column conspiracy
against the rest of you, someone would TELL!! Also, it is VERY
important to note that the intelligent are ALSO dependent upon
Science and Medicine to treat their ills and improve THEIR OWN
lives as WELL, and therefore LYING about the Truth would be JUST
as dangerous to THEMSELVES as it would be to the unwashed masses!!


What does it mean to 'produce the truth'?

--------------------------
The Truth is produced by peer-reviewed Science, and no other agency.


Do you mean that intelligent people will often attempt to manipulate
the perception of truth? Of what other people will believe to be the
truth?

--------------------------
Neither. See above.


I am quite intelligent enough to understand that this happens.

------------------------------
Maybe. Maybe not.


Conspiracies cannot exist

in those circumstances. Why would you imagine the smart kids could
lie to you, when they can't successfully lie to each other without
being shouted down publically for it???

------------------
As I said.


I believe that people lie to each other. I also believe that groups of
people will often circle the wagons in order to protect the lies of
their group. (This would explain in large part I believe the success of
regimes such as the one that the US is currently attempting to depose
in Iraq.

-------------------------
This is a minor cause, and easily tested and refuted. Science can be
done by anyone who knows how, and can confirm or reject established
notions independently. The BIGGEST cause of LYING is MONEY! The War
in Iraq was NOT to combat terrorism, but to feed American Defense
Industries, who had been without a good war for too long to stay
alive, our stores of weapons were becoming obsolete and had to be
used up so Congress could order some new ones. It boosts the economy
and advances the technology and cheapens mass production of new items
to initiate it with defense manufacture of similar items. There are
better ways to do such things in sensible societies, but ours is not
one of them!


Perhaps a discussion with someone there who's had their child
disappear would help a person to understand why people are often quite
willing to publically shout out lies, and why people quite often are
reluctant to speak the truth.)

-----------------------------------
People usually merely amplify their personal note of stupidity when
confronted by personal loss or tragedy. When people shout it is often
BECAUSE they're lying and doubt their stupidity can be believed if
they don't shout loudly. People in great grief don't magically become
any better than they were, and more often their flaws are the loudest.

People with a defective child are most afraid of it having been their
fault, so they scream mostly to dissuade people from blaming THEM,
they scream at forces impersonal and far away, them being safer to
yell at than their next door neighbors.
Steve
  #3  
Old August 28th 05, 02:36 AM
nogggin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

R. Steve Walz wrote:
nogggin wrote:

In May, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Imus needs to scandalize a radio audience,

and many controversial authors have milked the issue with books filled
with phony analyses which are frauds or intentionally incomplete.

Am I to believe, then, that any news I hear is lie, because news
sources are interested in increasing viewship?

-------------------------------
You shouldn't BELIEVE any of it, you must have that doubt!


If not, then which stories are real and which stories are made up
conspiracies? Was Chandra Levy really murdered? Is Cindy Sheehan
really protesting in front of Crawford ranch? Did Michael Jackson
really face trial?

----------------------------------
You have to use your good sense. Who ELSE says the same, and what
are THEIR motives, etc.


I get my information from various sources. If I discover that a source
has given me information that is later proven to be untrue, then that
source lose credibility with me. How do you decide what to believe?

--------------------------------------
By what is reasonable and sensible to believe based on the motives
of the speaker.


The supposed "increase" in autism cases is entirely explained by

improved criteria for reporting and categorizing, so there is NO
supposed "vaccination controversy". In other words, it is bogus.

Please site examples of studies which show this to be the case.

---------------------------------------
I don't do cites, go find the actual approved, authorized peer-review
journals of all the medical schools. I did. You do your OWN homework,
and then you'll know what *I* know, unless you're stupid, or have an
ulterior motive!And then there's no help for you anyway!


I believe that there has been some increase in ASD diagnoses due to
better regnition by doctors, and due to increases in available special
needs programs. However I do not believe that this would explain a
tenfold increase in full blown autism in a deade or two, when other
disorders have not increased at nearly the same rate.

------------------------------------
You need education. You "believe" several things here, explicit and
implied, that are bogus. There is NO "ten-fold" increase, or we'd
be absolutely swimming in special needs children. Nor did anyone say
that ALL apparent increases are accounted for by new diagnostic tools
or criteria, but together, the changes in medicine regarding autism
account for virtually all of it.


This stuff emerges from antiscientific paranoia among the less than

sufficiently educated portion of the population which believes in all
sorts of hoaxes because of their ignorance, and who believe that all
sorts of plots and criminal motivations are rampant among those who
are a lot smarter than they are, which is a natural response to the
self-recognition of their own intellectual inferiority.

Once again, ad hominem. Insult to the person instead of to the
argument.

-----------------------
When there is no "argument" all that remains which we can assault IS
the idiot. And that IS a VERY important thing to do, to leave the kind
of lying ill-educated idiots and their misinformed preconceived
ulteriorly motivated argument so inundated with ad hominem assault
that they shut the **** up before they misinform people who really
ARE so ****ing stupid that they'll believe them!!


One day perhaps someone who disagrees with me on this issue
will choose to do so without impugning my intelligence or my sanity.

------------------------------
If they do so they will be leaving themselves open to being
mistreated by such an idiot as yourself by granting you an audience
you certainly do NOT deserve.


I am not a scientist. I am not, however, a stupid person.

-----------------------------
HAH! Of course you are, that's the definition of stupid to the
scientist, a NON-scientist, the idiot who is not versed in the study
of how Truth is determined and can be established!!

Any scientist I know will give me that look, you know, the one that
says, "What a ****ing ignorant clown that guy is"!! I should know
since I AM a scientist!


I have an
engineering degree and I was a license engieer in the STate of Ohio
before leaving the work force to raise my children.

-------------------------------
Then you should know better than to make such a stupid statement!
The things they're calling educated people these days! Engineers
are becoming one-trick ponies instead of Renaissance people! I'll
bet you don't even fathom Statistical Methods and Theory of Science
beyond a nodding acquaintance! And to think, you were supposedly
trained to deal with the world of MEASUREMENT!!


While this would
not qualify me to effectively judge the methods employed in most
scientific studies, I think that most people would concede that it
would imply that I am not as stupid as a brick. I am intelligent enough
to read and understand conclusions of peer reviewed studies that
support a link. And I am intelligent enough to recognise when the
rhetoric of a group of people has begun to appear not merely defensive
or deceptive, but desperate.

--------------------------------
As are all the autism cranks lately. We've coddled the **** out of
them and redone studies and re-evaluated previous studies in the range
of cost of tens of millions of dollars for this society, and when
the results come out the same they WHINE that there must be some
COVER-UP!! This is classic paranoia of the under-educated of the
educated!! There's no help for these morons! This is the same as
all previous popular movements that have been anti-Science, and
anti-Technology, even anti-Education! Such people should be made to
shut up by court order until such time as they go graduate and become
accredited to speak publically on this subject!


After all, if you had been told in school in a manner that convinced

you, that you were intellectually inferior, wouldn't your natural
paranoia and resentment conclude that therefore the smart kids must
surely be bamboozling you and conniving against you?? And wouldn't
you believe in plots and conspiracies as an adult?? This is because
you were also too stupid to conprehend the effect of scientific peer
review and the competition among the intelligent to produce effective
truth for their OWN purposes in their lives.

I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by
'competition among the intelligent to produce effective truth for their
OWN purposes in their lives'.

-----------------------------------------
This is intended to remind the reader that the intelligent people
ALSO disagree, and cannot sustain some fifth column conspiracy
against the rest of you, someone would TELL!! Also, it is VERY
important to note that the intelligent are ALSO dependent upon
Science and Medicine to treat their ills and improve THEIR OWN
lives as WELL, and therefore LYING about the Truth would be JUST
as dangerous to THEMSELVES as it would be to the unwashed masses!!


What does it mean to 'produce the truth'?

--------------------------
The Truth is produced by peer-reviewed Science, and no other agency.





Well then, I give you

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2005/7712/abstract.html
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed
to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal









Do you mean that intelligent people will often attempt to manipulate
the perception of truth? Of what other people will believe to be the
truth?

--------------------------
Neither. See above.


I am quite intelligent enough to understand that this happens.

------------------------------
Maybe. Maybe not.


Conspiracies cannot exist

in those circumstances. Why would you imagine the smart kids could
lie to you, when they can't successfully lie to each other without
being shouted down publically for it???

------------------
As I said.


I believe that people lie to each other. I also believe that groups of
people will often circle the wagons in order to protect the lies of
their group. (This would explain in large part I believe the success of
regimes such as the one that the US is currently attempting to depose
in Iraq.

-------------------------
This is a minor cause, and easily tested and refuted. Science can be
done by anyone who knows how, and can confirm or reject established
notions independently. The BIGGEST cause of LYING is MONEY! The War
in Iraq was NOT to combat terrorism, but to feed American Defense
Industries, who had been without a good war for too long to stay
alive, our stores of weapons were becoming obsolete and had to be
used up so Congress could order some new ones. It boosts the economy
and advances the technology and cheapens mass production of new items
to initiate it with defense manufacture of similar items. There are
better ways to do such things in sensible societies, but ours is not
one of them!


Perhaps a discussion with someone there who's had their child
disappear would help a person to understand why people are often quite
willing to publically shout out lies, and why people quite often are
reluctant to speak the truth.)

-----------------------------------
People usually merely amplify their personal note of stupidity when
confronted by personal loss or tragedy. When people shout it is often
BECAUSE they're lying and doubt their stupidity can be believed if
they don't shout loudly. People in great grief don't magically become
any better than they were, and more often their flaws are the loudest.

People with a defective child are most afraid of it having been their
fault, so they scream mostly to dissuade people from blaming THEM,
they scream at forces impersonal and far away, them being safer to
yell at than their next door neighbors.
Steve




You sure don't sound like a scientist. You sound hysterical.

  #4  
Old August 28th 05, 02:42 AM
nogggin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

btw, my children are all beautiful

  #5  
Old August 28th 05, 03:06 AM
nogggin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You know something, it sure isn't easy to tell my words from yours, and
I sure wouldn't want anyone confusing my words with yours. Here let me
fix this exchange up a bit.


In May, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Imus needs to scandalize a radio audience,
and many controversial authors have milked the issue with books filled
with phony analyses which are frauds or intentionally incomplete.


Nogggin:




Am I to believe, then, that any news I hear is lie, because news
sources are interested in increasing viewship?




Walz:

You shouldn't BELIEVE any of it, you must have that doubt!



Nogggin:


If not, then which stories are real and which stories are made up
conspiracies? Was Chandra Levy really murdered? Is Cindy Sheehan
really protesting in front of Crawford ranch? Did Michael Jackson
really face trial?




Walz:

You have to use your good sense. Who ELSE says the same, and what
are THEIR motives, etc.




Nogggin:



I get my information from various sources. If I discover that a source
has given me information that is later proven to be untrue, then that
source lose credibility with me. How do you decide what to believe?





Walz:
By what is reasonable and sensible to believe based on the motives
of the speaker.


The supposed "increase" in autism cases is entirely explained by
improved criteria for reporting and categorizing, so there is NO
supposed "vaccination controversy". In other words, it is bogus.


Nogggin:


Please site examples of studies which show this to be the case.



Walz:

I don't do cites, go find the actual approved, authorized peer-review
journals of all the medical schools. I did. You do your OWN homework,
and then you'll know what *I* know, unless you're stupid, or have an
ulterior motive!And then there's no help for you anyway!


Nogggin:



I believe that there has been some increase in ASD diagnoses due to
better regnition by doctors, and due to increases in available special
needs programs. However I do not believe that this would explain a
tenfold increase in full blown autism in a deade or two, when other
disorders have not increased at nearly the same rate.



Walz:


You need education. You "believe" several things here, explicit and
implied, that are bogus. There is NO "ten-fold" increase, or we'd
be absolutely swimming in special needs children. Nor did anyone say
that ALL apparent increases are accounted for by new diagnostic tools
or criteria, but together, the changes in medicine regarding autism
account for virtually all of it.


This stuff emerges from antiscientific paranoia among the less than
sufficiently educated portion of the population which believes in all
sorts of hoaxes because of their ignorance, and who believe that all
sorts of plots and criminal motivations are rampant among those who
are a lot smarter than they are, which is a natural response to the
self-recognition of their own intellectual inferiority.


Nogggin:


Once again, ad hominem. Insult to the person instead of to the
argument.



Walz:


When there is no "argument" all that remains which we can assault IS
the idiot. And that IS a VERY important thing to do, to leave the kind
of lying ill-educated idiots and their misinformed preconceived
ulteriorly motivated argument so inundated with ad hominem assault
that they shut the **** up before they misinform people who really
ARE so ****ing stupid that they'll believe them!!



Nogggin:


One day perhaps someone who disagrees with me on this issue
will choose to do so without impugning my intelligence or my sanity.



Walz:


If they do so they will be leaving themselves open to being
mistreated by such an idiot as yourself by granting you an audience
you certainly do NOT deserve.


Nogggin:



I am not a scientist. I am not, however, a stupid person.




Walz:

HAH! Of course you are, that's the definition of stupid to the
scientist, a NON-scientist, the idiot who is not versed in the study
of how Truth is determined and can be established!!

Any scientist I know will give me that look, you know, the one that
says, "What a ****ing ignorant clown that guy is"!! I should know
since I AM a scientist!




Nogggin:


I have an
engineering degree and I was a license engieer in the STate of Ohio
before leaving the work force to raise my children.




Walz:

Then you should know better than to make such a stupid statement!
The things they're calling educated people these days! Engineers
are becoming one-trick ponies instead of Renaissance people! I'll
bet you don't even fathom Statistical Methods and Theory of Science
beyond a nodding acquaintance! And to think, you were supposedly
trained to deal with the world of MEASUREMENT!!



Nogggin:

While this would
not qualify me to effectively judge the methods employed in most
scientific studies, I think that most people would concede that it
would imply that I am not as stupid as a brick. I am intelligent enough
to read and understand conclusions of peer reviewed studies that
support a link. And I am intelligent enough to recognise when the
rhetoric of a group of people has begun to appear not merely defensive
or deceptive, but desperate.


Walz:


As are all the autism cranks lately. We've coddled the **** out of
them and redone studies and re-evaluated previous studies in the range
of cost of tens of millions of dollars for this society, and when
the results come out the same they WHINE that there must be some
COVER-UP!! This is classic paranoia of the under-educated of the
educated!! There's no help for these morons! This is the same as
all previous popular movements that have been anti-Science, and
anti-Technology, even anti-Education! Such people should be made to
shut up by court order until such time as they go graduate and become
accredited to speak publically on this subject!


After all, if you had been told in school in a manner that convinced
you, that you were intellectually inferior, wouldn't your natural
paranoia and resentment conclude that therefore the smart kids must
surely be bamboozling you and conniving against you?? And wouldn't
you believe in plots and conspiracies as an adult?? This is because
you were also too stupid to conprehend the effect of scientific peer
review and the competition among the intelligent to produce effective
truth for their OWN purposes in their lives.



Nogggin:


I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by
'competition among the intelligent to produce effective truth for their
OWN purposes in their lives'.



Walz:
This is intended to remind the reader that the intelligent people
ALSO disagree, and cannot sustain some fifth column conspiracy
against the rest of you, someone would TELL!! Also, it is VERY
important to note that the intelligent are ALSO dependent upon
Science and Medicine to treat their ills and improve THEIR OWN
lives as WELL, and therefore LYING about the Truth would be JUST
as dangerous to THEMSELVES as it would be to the unwashed masses!!




Nogggin:


What does it mean to 'produce the truth'?




Walz:

The Truth is produced by peer-reviewed Science, and no other agency.







Nogggin:


Well then, I give you

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2005/7712/abstract.html
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed
to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal









Nogggin:



Do you mean that intelligent people will often attempt to manipulate
the perception of truth? Of what other people will believe to be the
truth?


Walz:


--------------------------
Neither. See above.



Nogggin:


I am quite intelligent enough to understand that this happens.



Walz:
Maybe. Maybe not.


Conspiracies cannot exist
in those circumstances. Why would you imagine the smart kids could
lie to you, when they can't successfully lie to each other without
being shouted down publically for it???


As I said.




Nogggin:


I believe that people lie to each other. I also believe that groups of
people will often circle the wagons in order to protect the lies of
their group. (This would explain in large part I believe the success of
regimes such as the one that the US is currently attempting to depose
in Iraq.


Walz:



This is a minor cause, and easily tested and refuted. Science can be
done by anyone who knows how, and can confirm or reject established
notions independently. The BIGGEST cause of LYING is MONEY! The War
in Iraq was NOT to combat terrorism, but to feed American Defense
Industries, who had been without a good war for too long to stay
alive, our stores of weapons were becoming obsolete and had to be
used up so Congress could order some new ones. It boosts the economy
and advances the technology and cheapens mass production of new items
to initiate it with defense manufacture of similar items. There are
better ways to do such things in sensible societies, but ours is not
one of them!


Nogggin:


Perhaps a discussion with someone there who's had their child
disappear would help a person to understand why people are often quite
willing to publically shout out lies, and why people quite often are
reluctant to speak the truth.)




Walz:

People usually merely amplify their personal note of stupidity when
confronted by personal loss or tragedy. When people shout it is often
BECAUSE they're lying and doubt their stupidity can be believed if
they don't shout loudly. People in great grief don't magically become
any better than they were, and more often their flaws are the loudest.

People with a defective child are most afraid of it having been their
fault, so they scream mostly to dissuade people from blaming THEM,
they scream at forces impersonal and far away, them being safer to
yell at than their next door neighbors.
Steve





Nogggin:

You sure don't sound like a scientist. You sound hysterical.




Nogggin:

Whew, I feel much better now.

  #6  
Old August 29th 05, 05:06 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nogggin wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:
nogggin wrote:

In May, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Imus needs to scandalize a radio audience,
and many controversial authors have milked the issue with books filled
with phony analyses which are frauds or intentionally incomplete.

Am I to believe, then, that any news I hear is lie, because news
sources are interested in increasing viewship?

-------------------------------
You shouldn't BELIEVE any of it, you must have that doubt!


If not, then which stories are real and which stories are made up
conspiracies? Was Chandra Levy really murdered? Is Cindy Sheehan
really protesting in front of Crawford ranch? Did Michael Jackson
really face trial?

----------------------------------
You have to use your good sense. Who ELSE says the same, and what
are THEIR motives, etc.


I get my information from various sources. If I discover that a source
has given me information that is later proven to be untrue, then that
source lose credibility with me. How do you decide what to believe?

--------------------------------------
By what is reasonable and sensible to believe based on the motives
of the speaker.


The supposed "increase" in autism cases is entirely explained by
improved criteria for reporting and categorizing, so there is NO
supposed "vaccination controversy". In other words, it is bogus.

Please site examples of studies which show this to be the case.

---------------------------------------
I don't do cites, go find the actual approved, authorized peer-review
journals of all the medical schools. I did. You do your OWN homework,
and then you'll know what *I* know, unless you're stupid, or have an
ulterior motive!And then there's no help for you anyway!


I believe that there has been some increase in ASD diagnoses due to
better regnition by doctors, and due to increases in available special
needs programs. However I do not believe that this would explain a
tenfold increase in full blown autism in a deade or two, when other
disorders have not increased at nearly the same rate.

------------------------------------
You need education. You "believe" several things here, explicit and
implied, that are bogus. There is NO "ten-fold" increase, or we'd
be absolutely swimming in special needs children. Nor did anyone say
that ALL apparent increases are accounted for by new diagnostic tools
or criteria, but together, the changes in medicine regarding autism
account for virtually all of it.


This stuff emerges from antiscientific paranoia among the less than
sufficiently educated portion of the population which believes in all
sorts of hoaxes because of their ignorance, and who believe that all
sorts of plots and criminal motivations are rampant among those who
are a lot smarter than they are, which is a natural response to the
self-recognition of their own intellectual inferiority.

Once again, ad hominem. Insult to the person instead of to the
argument.

-----------------------
When there is no "argument" all that remains which we can assault IS
the idiot. And that IS a VERY important thing to do, to leave the kind
of lying ill-educated idiots and their misinformed preconceived
ulteriorly motivated argument so inundated with ad hominem assault
that they shut the **** up before they misinform people who really
ARE so ****ing stupid that they'll believe them!!


One day perhaps someone who disagrees with me on this issue
will choose to do so without impugning my intelligence or my sanity.

------------------------------
If they do so they will be leaving themselves open to being
mistreated by such an idiot as yourself by granting you an audience
you certainly do NOT deserve.


I am not a scientist. I am not, however, a stupid person.

-----------------------------
HAH! Of course you are, that's the definition of stupid to the
scientist, a NON-scientist, the idiot who is not versed in the study
of how Truth is determined and can be established!!

Any scientist I know will give me that look, you know, the one that
says, "What a ****ing ignorant clown that guy is"!! I should know
since I AM a scientist!


I have an
engineering degree and I was a license engieer in the STate of Ohio
before leaving the work force to raise my children.

-------------------------------
Then you should know better than to make such a stupid statement!
The things they're calling educated people these days! Engineers
are becoming one-trick ponies instead of Renaissance people! I'll
bet you don't even fathom Statistical Methods and Theory of Science
beyond a nodding acquaintance! And to think, you were supposedly
trained to deal with the world of MEASUREMENT!!


While this would
not qualify me to effectively judge the methods employed in most
scientific studies, I think that most people would concede that it
would imply that I am not as stupid as a brick. I am intelligent enough
to read and understand conclusions of peer reviewed studies that
support a link. And I am intelligent enough to recognise when the
rhetoric of a group of people has begun to appear not merely defensive
or deceptive, but desperate.

--------------------------------
As are all the autism cranks lately. We've coddled the **** out of
them and redone studies and re-evaluated previous studies in the range
of cost of tens of millions of dollars for this society, and when
the results come out the same they WHINE that there must be some
COVER-UP!! This is classic paranoia of the under-educated of the
educated!! There's no help for these morons! This is the same as
all previous popular movements that have been anti-Science, and
anti-Technology, even anti-Education! Such people should be made to
shut up by court order until such time as they go graduate and become
accredited to speak publically on this subject!


After all, if you had been told in school in a manner that convinced
you, that you were intellectually inferior, wouldn't your natural
paranoia and resentment conclude that therefore the smart kids must
surely be bamboozling you and conniving against you?? And wouldn't
you believe in plots and conspiracies as an adult?? This is because
you were also too stupid to conprehend the effect of scientific peer
review and the competition among the intelligent to produce effective
truth for their OWN purposes in their lives.

I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by
'competition among the intelligent to produce effective truth for their
OWN purposes in their lives'.

-----------------------------------------
This is intended to remind the reader that the intelligent people
ALSO disagree, and cannot sustain some fifth column conspiracy
against the rest of you, someone would TELL!! Also, it is VERY
important to note that the intelligent are ALSO dependent upon
Science and Medicine to treat their ills and improve THEIR OWN
lives as WELL, and therefore LYING about the Truth would be JUST
as dangerous to THEMSELVES as it would be to the unwashed masses!!


What does it mean to 'produce the truth'?

--------------------------
The Truth is produced by peer-reviewed Science, and no other agency.


Well then, I give you

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2005/7712/abstract.html
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed
to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

-------------------------------------------
YOU don't even know how to interpret the cites you quote! THAT study
found that thimerosol is even LESS contributory of blood and brain
mercury levels than previously believed, compared to other potential
causes!!!


Do you mean that intelligent people will often attempt to manipulate
the perception of truth? Of what other people will believe to be the
truth?

--------------------------
Neither. See above.


I am quite intelligent enough to understand that this happens.

------------------------------
Maybe. Maybe not.


Conspiracies cannot exist
in those circumstances. Why would you imagine the smart kids could
lie to you, when they can't successfully lie to each other without
being shouted down publically for it???

------------------
As I said.


I believe that people lie to each other. I also believe that groups of
people will often circle the wagons in order to protect the lies of
their group. (This would explain in large part I believe the success of
regimes such as the one that the US is currently attempting to depose
in Iraq.

-------------------------
This is a minor cause, and easily tested and refuted. Science can be
done by anyone who knows how, and can confirm or reject established
notions independently. The BIGGEST cause of LYING is MONEY! The War
in Iraq was NOT to combat terrorism, but to feed American Defense
Industries, who had been without a good war for too long to stay
alive, our stores of weapons were becoming obsolete and had to be
used up so Congress could order some new ones. It boosts the economy
and advances the technology and cheapens mass production of new items
to initiate it with defense manufacture of similar items. There are
better ways to do such things in sensible societies, but ours is not
one of them!


Perhaps a discussion with someone there who's had their child
disappear would help a person to understand why people are often quite
willing to publically shout out lies, and why people quite often are
reluctant to speak the truth.)

-----------------------------------
People usually merely amplify their personal note of stupidity when
confronted by personal loss or tragedy. When people shout it is often
BECAUSE they're lying and doubt their stupidity can be believed if
they don't shout loudly. People in great grief don't magically become
any better than they were, and more often their flaws are the loudest.

People with a defective child are most afraid of it having been their
fault, so they scream mostly to dissuade people from blaming THEM,
they scream at forces impersonal and far away, them being safer to
yell at than their next door neighbors.
Steve


You sure don't sound like a scientist. You sound hysterical.

----------------------------
When a hysteric like you calls me a hysteric in order to fend off my
reasoned argument, you merely look pitiful.
Steve
  #7  
Old August 29th 05, 05:07 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nogggin wrote:

btw, my children are all beautiful

-----------------------
With big tits and nice butts, no doubt.
Steve
  #8  
Old August 29th 05, 05:11 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nogggin wrote:

You know something, it sure isn't easy to tell my words from yours,

---------------------
Is that because we use the same letters of the alphabet? Yes, they
look quite similar, except to people who can READ!!!!!!!!!


and
I sure wouldn't want anyone confusing my words with yours. Here let me
fix this exchange up a bit.

-----------------------
You're a real nut job.
Steve



In May, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Imus needs to scandalize a radio audience,
and many controversial authors have milked the issue with books filled
with phony analyses which are frauds or intentionally incomplete.


Nogggin:


Am I to believe, then, that any news I hear is lie, because news
sources are interested in increasing viewship?


Walz:

You shouldn't BELIEVE any of it, you must have that doubt!



Nogggin:

If not, then which stories are real and which stories are made up
conspiracies? Was Chandra Levy really murdered? Is Cindy Sheehan
really protesting in front of Crawford ranch? Did Michael Jackson
really face trial?


Walz:

You have to use your good sense. Who ELSE says the same, and what
are THEIR motives, etc.



Nogggin:

I get my information from various sources. If I discover that a source
has given me information that is later proven to be untrue, then that
source lose credibility with me. How do you decide what to believe?


Walz:
By what is reasonable and sensible to believe based on the motives
of the speaker.


The supposed "increase" in autism cases is entirely explained by
improved criteria for reporting and categorizing, so there is NO
supposed "vaccination controversy". In other words, it is bogus.


Nogggin:

Please site examples of studies which show this to be the case.


Walz:

I don't do cites, go find the actual approved, authorized peer-review
journals of all the medical schools. I did. You do your OWN homework,
and then you'll know what *I* know, unless you're stupid, or have an
ulterior motive!And then there's no help for you anyway!


Nogggin:



I believe that there has been some increase in ASD diagnoses due to
better regnition by doctors, and due to increases in available special
needs programs. However I do not believe that this would explain a
tenfold increase in full blown autism in a deade or two, when other
disorders have not increased at nearly the same rate.


Walz:

You need education. You "believe" several things here, explicit and
implied, that are bogus. There is NO "ten-fold" increase, or we'd
be absolutely swimming in special needs children. Nor did anyone say
that ALL apparent increases are accounted for by new diagnostic tools
or criteria, but together, the changes in medicine regarding autism
account for virtually all of it.


This stuff emerges from antiscientific paranoia among the less than
sufficiently educated portion of the population which believes in all
sorts of hoaxes because of their ignorance, and who believe that all
sorts of plots and criminal motivations are rampant among those who
are a lot smarter than they are, which is a natural response to the
self-recognition of their own intellectual inferiority.


Nogggin:

Once again, ad hominem. Insult to the person instead of to the
argument.


Walz:

When there is no "argument" all that remains which we can assault IS
the idiot. And that IS a VERY important thing to do, to leave the kind
of lying ill-educated idiots and their misinformed preconceived
ulteriorly motivated argument so inundated with ad hominem assault
that they shut the **** up before they misinform people who really
ARE so ****ing stupid that they'll believe them!!



Nogggin:

One day perhaps someone who disagrees with me on this issue
will choose to do so without impugning my intelligence or my sanity.


Walz:

If they do so they will be leaving themselves open to being
mistreated by such an idiot as yourself by granting you an audience
you certainly do NOT deserve.


Nogggin:


I am not a scientist. I am not, however, a stupid person.


Walz:

HAH! Of course you are, that's the definition of stupid to the
scientist, a NON-scientist, the idiot who is not versed in the study
of how Truth is determined and can be established!!

Any scientist I know will give me that look, you know, the one that
says, "What a ****ing ignorant clown that guy is"!! I should know
since I AM a scientist!



Nogggin:

I have an
engineering degree and I was a license engieer in the STate of Ohio
before leaving the work force to raise my children.


Walz:

Then you should know better than to make such a stupid statement!
The things they're calling educated people these days! Engineers
are becoming one-trick ponies instead of Renaissance people! I'll
bet you don't even fathom Statistical Methods and Theory of Science
beyond a nodding acquaintance! And to think, you were supposedly
trained to deal with the world of MEASUREMENT!!



Nogggin:

While this would
not qualify me to effectively judge the methods employed in most
scientific studies, I think that most people would concede that it
would imply that I am not as stupid as a brick. I am intelligent enough
to read and understand conclusions of peer reviewed studies that
support a link. And I am intelligent enough to recognise when the
rhetoric of a group of people has begun to appear not merely defensive
or deceptive, but desperate.


Walz:

As are all the autism cranks lately. We've coddled the **** out of
them and redone studies and re-evaluated previous studies in the range
of cost of tens of millions of dollars for this society, and when
the results come out the same they WHINE that there must be some
COVER-UP!! This is classic paranoia of the under-educated of the
educated!! There's no help for these morons! This is the same as
all previous popular movements that have been anti-Science, and
anti-Technology, even anti-Education! Such people should be made to
shut up by court order until such time as they go graduate and become
accredited to speak publically on this subject!


After all, if you had been told in school in a manner that convinced
you, that you were intellectually inferior, wouldn't your natural
paranoia and resentment conclude that therefore the smart kids must
surely be bamboozling you and conniving against you?? And wouldn't
you believe in plots and conspiracies as an adult?? This is because
you were also too stupid to conprehend the effect of scientific peer
review and the competition among the intelligent to produce effective
truth for their OWN purposes in their lives.


Nogggin:


I am having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by
'competition among the intelligent to produce effective truth for their
OWN purposes in their lives'.


Walz:
This is intended to remind the reader that the intelligent people
ALSO disagree, and cannot sustain some fifth column conspiracy
against the rest of you, someone would TELL!! Also, it is VERY
important to note that the intelligent are ALSO dependent upon
Science and Medicine to treat their ills and improve THEIR OWN
lives as WELL, and therefore LYING about the Truth would be JUST
as dangerous to THEMSELVES as it would be to the unwashed masses!!


Nogggin:


What does it mean to 'produce the truth'?


Walz:

The Truth is produced by peer-reviewed Science, and no other agency.





Nogggin:


Well then, I give you

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2005/7712/abstract.html
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed
to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal









Nogggin:


Do you mean that intelligent people will often attempt to manipulate
the perception of truth? Of what other people will believe to be the
truth?


Walz:

--------------------------
Neither. See above.



Nogggin:

I am quite intelligent enough to understand that this happens.


Walz:
Maybe. Maybe not.


Conspiracies cannot exist
in those circumstances. Why would you imagine the smart kids could
lie to you, when they can't successfully lie to each other without
being shouted down publically for it???


As I said.



Nogggin:

I believe that people lie to each other. I also believe that groups of
people will often circle the wagons in order to protect the lies of
their group. (This would explain in large part I believe the success of
regimes such as the one that the US is currently attempting to depose
in Iraq.


Walz:

This is a minor cause, and easily tested and refuted. Science can be
done by anyone who knows how, and can confirm or reject established
notions independently. The BIGGEST cause of LYING is MONEY! The War
in Iraq was NOT to combat terrorism, but to feed American Defense
Industries, who had been without a good war for too long to stay
alive, our stores of weapons were becoming obsolete and had to be
used up so Congress could order some new ones. It boosts the economy
and advances the technology and cheapens mass production of new items
to initiate it with defense manufacture of similar items. There are
better ways to do such things in sensible societies, but ours is not
one of them!


Nogggin:

Perhaps a discussion with someone there who's had their child
disappear would help a person to understand why people are often quite
willing to publically shout out lies, and why people quite often are
reluctant to speak the truth.)


Walz:

People usually merely amplify their personal note of stupidity when
confronted by personal loss or tragedy. When people shout it is often
BECAUSE they're lying and doubt their stupidity can be believed if
they don't shout loudly. People in great grief don't magically become
any better than they were, and more often their flaws are the loudest.

People with a defective child are most afraid of it having been their
fault, so they scream mostly to dissuade people from blaming THEM,
they scream at forces impersonal and far away, them being safer to
yell at than their next door neighbors.
Steve




Nogggin:

You sure don't sound like a scientist. You sound hysterical.

-----------------------------------
When a hysteric like you calls me a hysteric in order to fend off my
reasoned argument, you merely look pitiful.
Steve


Nogggin:

Whew, I feel much better now.

----------------------
You're confused. Confusion can mimic an ecstatic state.
Steve
  #9  
Old August 29th 05, 05:52 PM
nogggin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

YOU don't even know how to interpret the cites you quote! THAT study
found that thimerosol is even LESS contributory of blood and brain
mercury levels than previously believed, compared to other potential
causes!!!


First of all, I care much more about levels of mercury in my brain and
nervous system and in my childrens brains and nervous systems than I do
levels of mercury in my blood. This study says that ethyl mercury is
cleared from the blood faster than methyl mercury. However it also says
that 'the average brain-to-blood concentration ratio was slightly
higher for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (3.5 =B1 0.5 vs. 2.5 =B1 0.3)'.
In other words, the mercury in thimerosal accumulates in the brain
more readily than methyl mercury does. In other words, the assurances
that we've been getting from the public health bureaucracy that ethyl
mercury doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, are now shown to be
false assurances. They never had anything to base those claims on, and
there is now evidence to show that in monkeys ethyl mercury DOES (oh
don't let me forget my exclamation points. I do so want to impress
people.) !!!!!! cross the blood brain barrier.

When a hysteric like you calls me a hysteric in order to fend off my
reasoned argument, you merely look pitiful.


Nya, nya, I said it first. :P

Reasoned arguments? I'm lmao. You, like Mr. Probert, have begun to bore
me. I've had enough of you.

  #10  
Old August 30th 05, 02:25 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nogggin wrote:

YOU don't even know how to interpret the cites you quote! THAT study
found that thimerosol is even LESS contributory of blood and brain
mercury levels than previously believed, compared to other potential
causes!!!


First of all, I care much more about levels of mercury in my brain and
nervous system and in my childrens brains and nervous systems than I do
levels of mercury in my blood. This study says that ethyl mercury is
cleared from the blood faster than methyl mercury. However it also says
that 'the average brain-to-blood concentration ratio was slightly
higher for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (3.5 ± 0.5 vs. 2.5 ± 0.3)'.
In other words, the mercury in thimerosal accumulates in the brain
more readily than methyl mercury does. In other words, the assurances
that we've been getting from the public health bureaucracy that ethyl
mercury doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, are now shown to be
false assurances. They never had anything to base those claims on, and
there is now evidence to show that in monkeys ethyl mercury DOES (oh
don't let me forget my exclamation points. I do so want to impress
people.) !!!!!! cross the blood brain barrier.

--------------------------
Irrelevant. Autism is not even tracable to thimerosol statistically!
In fact a slight ANTI-correlation is found!


When a hysteric like you calls me a hysteric in order to fend off my
reasoned argument, you merely look pitiful.


Nya, nya, I said it first. :P

---------------------
Best you can do? Pitiful.


Reasoned arguments? I'm lmao. You, like Mr. Probert, have begun to bore
me. I've had enough of you.

------------------------
In other words, you were unable to respond logically!
Steve
 




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