How to Handle A Friend (long)

I have been told that in this area I will be strapped down to a bed and
pushed upon by a couple of nurses and it is *extremely* painful. (This
comes from said best friend, btw). Remember, I don't have *any*
options
here. I am stuck with the doctors I have because I am only ten days
away
from my due date because believe me, I tried to change two weeks ago
when I
realized that I was headed down the same road.


Why are you stuck with your doctors to do a version? I didn't
go with my caregivers for my version. I looked around for the
local expert on versions and went with him. In fact, my
caregivers didn't do versions, and many OBs don't either--
and you want someone who's experienced to do it. My
insurance covered no problem.

Oh, no no no, I meant I am stuck with them for OB care. I didn't know there
was any such thing as a version expert! I will ask around, because at this
rate, I'd rather have someone else do it anyway. I mean, good golly, the
man didn't even mention it--it was just "you'll have to have a section."

My version was very, very different from what you
describe. I went to the hospital and was monitored a bit
to get a baseline for the baby. They did a quick
ultrasound to assess the position. The OB and a resident
poured jelly and mineral oil on my belly and had the
baby turned painlessly in less than 30 seconds. I felt
some pressure, but no significant pain at all.

Frankly, again, I don't see what you have
to lose. You can decide what you're willing to
put up with. If the baby won't turn without too
much pain and effort, you can just say you don't
want to try anymore and schedule a c-section. You
could end up with a quick and easy version, but if
you don't try, you deny yourself that possibility.

Best wishes,
Ericka

I agree. I will definetly poke around.

Sk

In ,
Susanne Koenig wrote:

*
* Really?? I don't understand how you can think major abdominal surgery is
* preferable to an attempt to get the baby to turn without surgery!!!!
* What's the downside of trying??
*
*Got a discount on exclaimation points today, hun? That's why I'm asking for
*opinions. I don't know, I've never had any experience with this and I
*certainly don't trust my doctors. I've heard lots of women say they

No discount on exclamation points. I was using them to express not only
strong emotional content of the statement, but REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY
REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY strong emotional content. Glad to see I made
my point

*prefered their c-sections to birth, including my best friend who had two.
*I've only been told by one--in person--that she couldn't stand hers. That's

I'm truly shocked, but will refrain from future use of the exclamation
point since it seems to trouble you a bit. I have never had any abdominal
surgery. I do know a lot of people who have had abdominal surgery,
including cesarian sections, and every single one of them has complained
of at least some degree of pain for at least a day or two and generally
speaking for weeks. Plus of course the matter of the doctor telling you
you can't lift anything heavier than the baby for so long, and you can't
drive a car for so long - it really cramps your style. The driving is the
problem for most of the people I know. If you're a SAHM and you live
somewhere you can't get around without a car, well - the groceries do not
fly home! Plus, a lot of times you aren't able to do stairs
postoperatively either.

*insights. If I'm told that it's breech and what I've been told about
*turning is true, then it's a judgement call (and not necessairly a
*hair-brained one, thank you very much) not to even try, does that make
*sense?

Actually, no, I'm not sure I follow. it's a judgement call not to even
try? Do you mean, it's a judgement call as to whether or not to try? Or do
you mean something else?

I'm not sure what the implication of your "hair-brained" parenthetical
remark is, with the "thank you very much" and all... I don't believe I
ever called you hare-brained or anything remotely like that. If you
mistakenly thought I did, perhaps someone misattributed a post or
something.

*I have been told that in this area I will be strapped down to a bed and
*pushed upon by a couple of nurses and it is *extremely* painful. (This

Well, here's information about a version from the World Health
Organization:

http://www.who.int/reproductive-heal...ac/Procedures/
External_version_P15_P16.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/ywjj9

see also: http://sheknows.com/about/look/135.htm in which the physician
author discusses using an epidural or spinal anesthetic to handle the pain
associated with external version if necessary.

I'm surprised to hear the story of "a couple of nurses" pushing upon the
baby. I would want external version done by an experienced OB or
perinatologist but maybe there are nurses who do it, I dunno.

*comes from said best friend, btw). Remember, I don't have *any* options
*here. I am stuck with the doctors I have because I am only ten days away
*from my due date because believe me, I tried to change two weeks ago when I
*realized that I was headed down the same road.

I guess I don't understand why if you think you do not have ANY options
you are asking around at all! (oops, sorry, one exclamation point got in
there). I totally understand not wanting to rock the boat at this late
date - I don't imagine I would, either - but you do certainly have
options, even if the other ones aren't ones you plan to choose. You could
refuse to go to the hospital and have the baby at home. You could go to
the emergency room in labor. There are probably some other things I can't
think of, too.

*Now I may be misinformed on the whole, that's why I'm asking. Sorry to
*ruffle your wellspring of righteous indignation. Now if you'll excuse me, I
*shall now brush your footprints off my monitor.

Whoah. What righteous indignation? I made a very strong statement (as
evidenced by so many exclamation points) of my failure to understand your
point of view, and I asked what the downside was. Where is the righteous
indignation in that? Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear? (hee hee)
And I don't have any idea what you mean about footprints on your monitor.
Footprints? What are you talking about??

*Okay. Major Abdominal Surgery. Gotcha.

Yep. Major abdominal surgery. By any definition, that's what a c-section
is, and don't let anyone tell you differently!

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

Susanne Koenig wrote:


Oh, no no no, I meant I am stuck with them for OB care. I didn't know there
was any such thing as a version expert!


I don't think it's an official specialty ;-) But
I suspect most areas have someone who "everyone knows" is
the best at it. Call up local midwives or ask nurses at
the hospital--they'll often give you the best information
because they usually don't have a conflict of interest ;-)

I will ask around, because at this
rate, I'd rather have someone else do it anyway. I mean, good golly, the
man didn't even mention it--it was just "you'll have to have a section."


Lots of OBs don't mention it--and you're right, it
usually means they're not experienced with it.


Best wishes,

Ericka

"Susanne Koenig" wrote in message .. .

On a positive note, I did get permission from my doctor to stay at home in
my hot tub (96 degree hot tub, that is) until the contractions are 5 minutes
apart. If it wasn't for my mother's prescence, I wouldn't do that because I
am twenty miles from the hospital. (One mile from Memphis, twenty miles
from the hospital that insurance covers). Today I was told that the baby is
possibly breech, so we'll find out next week what's going on with that.

But the real issue now is I don't know how to handle my friend. I have been
so angry with her because I was called selfish. I understand she took my
criticism to heart because I was questioning people she knows and works with
every day. Why should I have a problem with wearing all those monitors,
says she. All I know is I felt I had nothing to do with my daughter's
birth, and I do not want to be reduced again to thinking, "Oh, that's what
that was." as I did when they showed her to me. (She had her face towards
my left hip during birth, and it proved horribly difficult to get her out).
The closer I get to my son's birth, the more I see what a hole the first one
left in me. My husband says I'm being too hard on myself, but I just don't
want to experience that again. I want to be happy to see him, and
experience some kind of pain relief that doesn't take away my urge to push
(which it did) or involve a needle in my spine.

Has anyone else here experienced this kind of reaction from friends and how
did you handle it? Thanks for reading this far!

Sk

I think you sound like a really nice person, but I'd suggest that you
stop asking permission from other people to do things that are your
decision to make. In a way, that's what you were doing with your friend,
although I'm sure you were just talking. She was likely to feel
defensive about criticism aimed at her area of work, and people who are
firmly wedded to standard ob/gyn care are usually pretty hostile
to the idea of midwives or other birth attendants. That's just the
way it is. She didn't have to be so harsh, but her opinion is really
just that. This is between you and your husband, and yes, you have a
right to be selfish: this is your life. I wouldn't talk about stuff
like this with her again, and certainly wouldn't waste time trying
to convince her that my views were solid and intelligent. If she
disagrees with you, that's her problem, not your problem.

The reason I brought up the permission aspect is that you mentioned
that you got permission from your doctor to stay at home until
contractions are 5 minutes apart. If this is a normal pregnancy,
you don't need permission from anyone. Go to the hospital when you
feel it's time. Those people are there to help you; you are not
there to please them. By the way, I gave birth a long time ago and
had an external monitor. I just unplugged the damn thing whenever
I had to go to the bathroom. They didn't particularly like it, but
I was mobile and didn't make an issue of it. Fortunately, neither
did they. You don't have to do everything they say, or make their
jobs easier when you have needs. Just do it! Best wishes to you,

Lynne

I will ask around, because at this
rate, I'd rather have someone else do it anyway. I mean, good golly,
the
man didn't even mention it--it was just "you'll have to have a section."


Lots of OBs don't mention it--and you're right, it
usually means they're not experienced with it.

I have a spent a good deal of time talking with a midwife when I was looking
into home birth a few weeks ago. I'll give her a call. A good friend of
mine is her apprentice.

Sk

"Susanne Koenig" wrote in message ...

True enough. That's why I'm asking. I am admittedly terrified of a repeat
experience, and I don't trust the doctors at all.

Ok, so you don't trust doctors to do a version, you don't seem to
trust them about giving birth, but you'll trust them to do a
c-section? Don't know about you, but I'd be scared sh*tless going for,
yes, major abdominal surgery, if I don't trust the doctor.

I can't even imagine how violated you feel about your first birth, but
I don't think you realize how things could be worse with a c-section.
I know many people swear by them, but it's not the case with all of
them, and you could end up worse off than without one.

Good luck with everything!

Michelle

Ok, so you don't trust doctors to do a version, you don't seem to
trust them about giving birth, but you'll trust them to do a
c-section? Don't know about you, but I'd be scared sh*tless going for,
yes, major abdominal surgery, if I don't trust the doctor.

I can't even imagine how violated you feel about your first birth, but
I don't think you realize how things could be worse with a c-section.
I know many people swear by them, but it's not the case with all of
them, and you could end up worse off than without one.

Good luck with everything!

Michelle

I'm put in a peculiar situation. I'm not having the birth I want in the
first place so it's The Lesser Of Two Evils. My tendency to lean towards a
section at this point is a combination of things, such as how messed up my
bottom was after the birth of my daughter and the thought of having to fight
for myself in the middle of labor scares me. How many of us can really
protest in the middle of a contraction? It does sound strange, I admit, but
honestly I'm more comfortable with something that is quick rather than
protracted even though this is not a popular opinion. Yes, I know recovery
might be longer, but the results of my daughter's birth linger seven years
later and I just don't think I want to make things worse in my netheregions
than they already are.

And I might note here that it's a bit pessimistic to say that it could be
worse without one. I hate to sound naive, but I mean, compared to what I
went through, how bad can it be? Think about it--horror stories abound for
both sides of the equation, vaginally or c-section, as well as marvelous
stories. I don't mean to sound flippant (sp?) about surgery, I am really
not looking forward to it or the possiblity of complications, believe me.
And to make matters worse, my husband and I are in a position where he can't
take off--he lost his regular job in December (they called on Christmas Eve
to tell him, isn't that lovely?) and although he had another job offer lined
up (they took him that same day, with a smile) it is still going to be a
horrible scramble just to make our mortgage, worse yet, our first payment to
our new mortgage company. But if the baby is breech (I think he is right
transverse) and there is no hope of turning him, why not look on the bright
side? My family doesn't have to deal with me sitting on that hospital bed
in tears of disappointment because I'm thinking, Dear God, here we go
again... I cried for five days straight after the leak incident, every time
I thought about the hospital and having to explain myself and what position
that put the nurses in (who are really discouraged from deviation, as my
mother said to me today, "Susanne--you're going to have to face it--it's a
litigation world.") I'd break into tears. And to have those nurses walk in
and say, "Well, we *have* to do this and we *have* to do that" and knowing
that is what their job dictates and that I would have to be persistant with
them is much more of an issue with me than the actual doctor who's just
going to show up for the last ten minutes anyway.

And I might add that it doesn't matter if I don't trust my doctor, per say.
(Whoa, whoa, whoa, keep reading ;-) Keep in mind that due to the insurance,
I am stuck at this practice which has eight practitioners and I don't know
who I will get when I go into labor. (Why didn't this occur to me when I
signed on--to ask how many doctors were at the practice and what their
on-call policy was???)

With my section, I can at least choose the one I trust the *most*. Sad,
isn't it? If they *did* assist in labor, I have already had both of my
primary doctors tell me that they are not going to have any of this "all
fours" or "squatting" or "standing up nonsense" along with one saying, "All
my patince put their feet in stirrups, I won't have it any other way."
Yahoo for you, I say. I think Cindi's response to one, "If you push a baby
out of YOUR penis, then you can tell me how to have this baby" is a good
one. I think I'll use it, just in case I DO get the baby turned!
Meanwhile, I pray for him to get kidneystones, muhahahahaha.

If there is a next time, I am going to have the birth that I want because
they are building a birthing center here, but sadly, I don't think there
will be a next time. I'm thirty four and happy with two.

In the end, I think that it is incredibly sad that I am more terrified of a
dry-dock hospital birth (with a needle in my spine, possibly easing the pain
but slowing my birth and robbing me of pushing again) than a c-section. I
know it is not easy for most of you kind people (and I mean that) to
understand, but I decided to be bluntly honest in my post.

I'm curious, did you have one yourself? I'd like to hear about any and all
experiences...

Sk

I think you sound like a really nice person,

Oh, this is terribly true, but only when I am not pregnant. :-)

but I'd suggest that you
stop asking permission from other people to do things that are your
decision to make.

! Good advice.

In a way, that's what you were doing with your friend,
although I'm sure you were just talking. She was likely to feel
defensive about criticism aimed at her area of work, and people who are
firmly wedded to standard ob/gyn care are usually pretty hostile
to the idea of midwives or other birth attendants. That's just the
way it is. She didn't have to be so harsh, but her opinion is really
just that. This is between you and your husband, and yes, you have a
right to be selfish: this is your life. I wouldn't talk about stuff
like this with her again, and certainly wouldn't waste time trying
to convince her that my views were solid and intelligent. If she
disagrees with you, that's her problem, not your problem.

Well, guess what? BACK to the original topic of the post, y'all won't
believe this--my friend got fired that same day as my last visit. It hurt
her feelings terribly, because she really did a good job at the front desk
managing the office. She had been developing a relationship with a
co-worker and I'm sure that's the real reason she got fired. But all the
same, she IS a terribly nice person and it was a blow she could have done
without. Wonder if they knew exactly how loyal she was to their ideals.

I did finally get to mention to her how much our conversation hurt my
feelings, but she said that she meant I was being selfish about talking
about it all the time, and picking the process apart (like not wanting an
external monitor and being strapped to six different unnecessary things and
having to page someone to unplug me just to go pee!) NOT that I was being
selfish and putting my needs over my babies. And no, I don't know if this
is the truth. It's irreguardless now, she's out of the picture meaning what
made this so damn difficult was having to walk into my doctors office
*knowing* that someone there had thought I was loony just for considering
alternatives. It got to where I didn't call and make appointments or ask
questions through her, which made it more difficult on me.


The reason I brought up the permission aspect is that you mentioned
that you got permission from your doctor to stay at home until
contractions are 5 minutes apart. If this is a normal pregnancy,
you don't need permission from anyone.

True enough. I meant permission not about when I was leaving for the
hospital, but about the hot tub in general. I was wondering if there would
be bacterial issues with the tub. (I would have my mother there to monitor
my progress anyhoo. I think she can deliver in Mississippi, where the hot
tub is, but I'm not sure. Ironically, baby's going to be born in Tennessee
anyway.)

Go to the hospital when you
feel it's time. Those people are there to help you; you are not
there to please them. By the way, I gave birth a long time ago and
had an external monitor. I just unplugged the damn thing whenever
I had to go to the bathroom. They didn't particularly like it, but
I was mobile and didn't make an issue of it. Fortunately, neither
did they. You don't have to do everything they say, or make their
jobs easier when you have needs. Just do it! Best wishes to you,

Lynne

Thank you, and I feel that you mean it.

Sk

Larry McMahan wrote in message ...

You keep saying you would like a home birth but you "can't" because
of the money. Did you know that midwives cost only a fraction of
what a hospital birth costs (1/4 to 1/3)? I suspect that is it more
likely fear of the unknown and lack of support from DH.

Hmmmm.... I totally understand what she means by that. Many insurance
companies don't cover home birth at all, and DO cover hospital birth.
My insurance company is one that normally doesn't, but they did cover
my home birth, and other than being slow to pay up, they were great.
BUT.... I paid three times what I would have if I had had a hospital
birth.

Because my midwives are independent praticioners (and are one of the
few homebirth midwives around - the midwives who ARE in network only
do hospital births), and are out of network for everyone, I had to pay
$1500 of the total $4800 bill. If I had gone in network (which means
at a hospital), my total out-of-pocket would have been only $500.

So yes, the $4800 is about half what a normal easy birth at a hospital
would have been. But it was THREE TIMES more expensive for me
personally. But my husband and I have good jobs, so we could afford it
with careful budgeting.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

That sucks. You would think a big place like that would have better options
wouldn't you? I hope your birth experience is better than the last one...
"Susanne Koenig" wrote in message
news
About those links: Visted those days ago. Birthplace is a joke, and a
big
one. It's a public-health fascility for indigent mothers and has the same
standard hospital birth you will see anywhere.

Sk