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  #21  
Old February 4th 06, 08:29 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
Kane,

You're right I did edit some of what you wrote. I took out items that
were irrelevant to what I wished to ask you or comment on. For example
the URL you provided for online parenting classes. It was unnecessary
for me to quote the URL, it would have been redundant as I had not
comment on the URL in question.


Your accusation was that I did not respond to your questions.

When I removed my comments that triggered your
comments/questions/rebuttal leaving your comments "lonely and dangling"
I did so that those reading along didn't have to sift through 300lines
of dialogue to catch up to what we are talking about, and I presumed
that you would know/remember what our conversation was about. Perhaps
I presumed wrongly.


I don't have a problem with someone snipping my remarks. I do if they
refer back to them for information or claiming I did or didn't say
something.

As for you quoting the Embry study again...you cannot accuse me of
dodging because I had already stated I would not be baited into a long
drawn out discussion on a teeny tiny report from 25yrs ago.


It is not a teeny tiny report. It's a longitudinal study of
considerable scientific rigorously applied research methods. It
explored, for the first time in all research before, and possibly
since, a direct observation of applied methods of parenting on one
subject. A near perfect field study to my mind.

Each of the 33 subject families were described in depth, each child
also. The simple method of teaching rather than using CP to try and
create a child response by pain aversion was elegant and refined as no
other study had ever attempted.

And the basics of social science research accepted methodology has not
changed all that much in 25 years. Standards and analysis are still
much the same.

You may do what you wish, but making value comments on a study you have
not seen is unacceptable judgement of that study.

To answer your question regarding who is responsible for the lack of
available parenting classes in my area. The State and Federal
government. There is no funding.


The Federal government is not allowed to withhold funding to one state
while funding another for the various grants and programs. If your
state doesn't have them someone there is not doing the relatively
simple work to apply for them.

Hence, I have no answer to YOUR problem beyond what I already offered,
and why I asked you questions sometimes rather than answer. I did not
have enough information to give a credible answer to you. I do not
believe I asked evasive questions, hence your rhetorical question that
in fact accused me of dodging was uncalled for.

My comment "see above" in response to your question "How are they not
encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?" was to save myself time typing out the answer
because i had just answered it above. You have a knack for asking the
same questions several ways trying to get different answers so you can
trip people up with their words.


That is untrue. You are projecting Doans most common methods on me.

Just as now, and throughout the thread, when you gave me more
information requested I answered your questions more fully and did NOT
use that information to "trip" you "up with" your "words."

If you think so, point it out. If true have have most abject apologies
I only have come back at your with some harshness when YOU appeared to
be playing the "Doan Game" with me. A harassing false insinutation
like, "Dodging?"

I split up one very long paragraph of yours so I could comment on
individual portions in the hopes that it would be less confusing. But
I see you were confused by it. Perhaps you should carefully read next
time.


Perhaps I should. And that I did when you accused me of "Dodging?" We
both know that was an accusation in a rhetorical form.

Upon reading your prior posts and my responses I found NO instances
where I had failed to answer you as fully as was possible, nor did I
ask any questions that were not calculated to gain more information so
I could give an answer...which I then did IF you tendered the
information asked for.

I did it again in this post, without any attempts to 'trip' you up with
your own words.

You keep saying that you responded to

"The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending
behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop.

The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your
proposed law."

I have read and reread your posts...and you did NOT answer these
questions. If you feel you did, perhaps you can do a little copy and
paste yourself in your next messege and point them out to me.


I don't even need to go back. I can tell you from memory, and in a most
recent post to you pointed them out yet again.

To your first question I answered by pointing out that I would put
requirements in the law to provide for services to the accused. I made
that very clear.

To our second question I answered that the charges and penalties should
be taken from state statutes currently used to prosecute child abuse
NOW.

I assume you are intelligiant enough to figure out which portions of
your extensive butt cover....erm clarification of your prior posts I am
responding to...but I've been wrong before.


You are simply using harassing language to accuse me of what I have not
done. Why would answering your questions then or now be "butt
cover.....?"

You came back at me accusing me of dodging. I have pointed out to you
my prior posts responding to the specific questions you said I did not
respond to. Is that "butt cover.....," to point those out to you when
you asked me to?

Or did you wish to make an accusation and I NOT respond in defense of
my post's contents?

Let's see it again, shall we?

Here is yesterday's post to you answering all your questions in full,
using citations and links back to my messages, and quoting the exact
words I used back then. And they WERE answers to your two questions
above.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...338b2ba?hl=en&

Why are you still denying that I answered you when the proof is right
in front of your eyes?

Here is a requote of my original posted comments to your questions from
my message cited above as to link:

"One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes. "

That actually answers both your questions.

One cannot get a parent to be trained if they do not want to...so
obviously, along with the list of sources I know are available
elsewhere (I cannot solve YOUR local problem so don't ask me to and
it's NOT a dodge for me to so state), the answer to your question is
that there must be enforcement.

As to how to force that? That's your second question, what penalty or
punishment would the law apply. "The only legal action would be child
protection statutes." is my answer.

And as I said, I'm not going to list all the states statutes. And that
too is NOT dodging.

If you want an exact answer, as you seemed to for your "lack of
resources in my state," response, and since I do NOT know your state of
residence, then who could I be dodging not to have an answer beyond
what I gave?

--
beccafromlalaland


You are looking more and more like you simply wish to pick a fight, and
you are an admirer of Doan and his shoddy sick little tricks.

Why are you stating falsely that I did not answer your questions?

You may not like my answers, but they are answers and fair and as
accurate as they can be under the limitations of your information to me
at each step our our posted exchanges.

When you told me more, I answered more fully.

Kane

  #22  
Old February 5th 06, 06:03 AM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
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First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
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Kane,

You have my apologies I clearly misunderstood your responses.

The current statute for child abuse involves the children being taken away from the parents until said parents complete the required punishment complete parenting classes and prove that they are stable. This can take Months to Years to complete depending on the severity of abuse, and in many cases never happens. During that time children are placed with a suitable family member, foster or group home.

This is understandable in situations of abuse.

I do not believe spanking "is" abuse. I believe it is a misguided attempt at discipline, from loving parents who do not have the tools available to them to use gentle discipline.

If you propose to remove the children from a home, from their loving parents who do not "know" any other/better way of discipline then you are NOT only punishing the Parents, you are punishing the Children.

You can say that a law against spanking will provide the incentive to gain the necessary skills to stop spanking.

That may be true...or people will just find new ways to hide their behavior.
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #23  
Old February 5th 06, 08:18 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
Kane,

You have my apologies I clearly misunderstood your responses.


I should work to be more clear. Your criticism is actually helpful in
that way.

This is too important to not be clear.

The current statute for child abuse involves the children being taken
away from the parents until said parents complete the required
punishment complete parenting classes and prove that they are stable.


Actually there are other outcomes in most states. My state and all
those around me do not have a "punishment" penalty. And they do not
take all children away. A fair percentage remain with the parent while
the parent does the various service plan goals.

Some can be as simple as having a "homemaker" come in and work on
programs to housekeep, food buying and prep, child and baby care,
budgeting skill building. And most important, self care.

In 1980-81 when I did my practicum and ended up being hired for a year
part time on a work study program, because of my background, I wound up
supervising homemakers, and participating in parent training. Child
care was provided by the state, on the premises. I used to coordinate
those services and rent, or borrow facilities in folks neighborhood so
they would not have to travel far....and at that they were provided bus
tickets if needed.

This can take Months to Years to complete depending on the severity of
abuse, and in many cases never happens. During that time children are
placed with a suitable family member, foster or group home.


Yes.

This is understandable in situations of abuse.


Some folks have a very hard time getting through it, but have some
pretty major life problems that negatively impacts their ability to
keep their child safe.

I do not believe spanking "is" abuse.


We differ on this.

I believe it is a misguided
attempt at discipline, from loving parents who do not have the tools
available to them to use gentle discipline.


We agree on this, to a point. Some folks confuse attachment and
ownership with love.

If you propose to remove the children from a home, from their loving
parents who do not "know" any other/better way of discipline then you
are NOT only punishing the Parents, you are punishing the Children.


I don't. That's only ONE possibly outcome of a child abuse founding.
That happens in cases where there is more damage to the child.

You can say that a law against spanking will provide the incentive to
gain the necessary skills to stop spanking.


Yes. I've seen many parents learn to parent better because they were on
a CPS services plan, and in most of those cases I knew about them
because a relative (I used to help relatives with various aspects of
foster and adoption) had the child in their care temporarily.

I got to watch the return of the children to their bio parent too.

That may be true...or people will just find new ways to hide their
behavior.


That will always be true. People will always find ways to hide their
crimes.

I'm sure you can see that that does not mean we simply should not have
laws.

You will find that laws against spanking have worked in many other
countries.

And people don't lose their children for 'spanking.' Not there, and not
here. People aren't even reported for spanking. They are reported for
suspected abuse.

My best guess is that when spanking is illegal that won't change in the
least. You'd be surprized how many people that spank also abuse.

Like drug use now....people don't lose their children because of drug
use. They come to the attention of CPS because of the things they do or
fail to do as a result of drug use.

Crime...got to jail...can't care for kids....tweaking...can't care for
kids....crashing...can't care for kids.....etc. etc etc.

The only "drug" crime that will result in children being removed for
THE CRIME, is having children present in a meth lab. Some states have
gone one step further, but I can't fault them on that -- just having a
child in a household where drug SALES are taking place.

--
beccafromlalaland


Best wishes. Kane

  #24  
Old February 7th 06, 07:28 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


Thank you, beccafromlalaland. It looks like it's a moderated group.
Can you tell me who are the moderators? If they are anything like Kane,
I'll pass. ;-)

Doan

On Sat, 4 Feb 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


Doan,

Go to parentingbanner.com in the bluish tool bar at the top should be
a button to click to subscribe or join or something along those lines.
Being able to directly quote people makes things easier.

Although I didn't quote Kane in my prior post because it would have
been more confusing trying to filter through the bs to get to the heart
of what he was trying to say.


--
beccafromlalaland


  #25  
Old February 7th 06, 07:52 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
That's just typical of ignoranus kane0. Be prepare for the adhom
from him, beccafromlalalan. ;-)


Only to harassment, and lies, unlike you Doan.

An me, ONLY TO YOU and your kinds! ;-)

Hence, it's not typical, and further that would make it misleading on
your part.

You are lying, in other words.

Why do you lie about me?

So, simply to harass?

I don't, I simply stated the facts. Just ask beccafromlalaland who is
believable, you or me?

You seem to be attempting to woe "becca" rather energetically.

I simple give her the respect that she has given me. I am not trying
to convince her to spank her kids, nor anybody else for that matter.

Funny thing is you can't even "woe" her. Tell her where you teach, or
how much knowledge you have about the Hutterites, or how you are so
much smarter than Dr. Embry (no punishment). ;-)

Doan

Doan


0:-


On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


--
beccafromlalaland





--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006


  #26  
Old February 7th 06, 08:09 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


Doan wrote:

.........more lying evasive nonsense......

Try posting the truth about your self and I'll get back to you,
spanking compulsive apologist.

You lie.

  #27  
Old February 7th 06, 09:02 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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LOL! The lying Kane0 got caught and can't handle the truth.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! ;-)

Doan

On 7 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

........more lying evasive nonsense......

Try posting the truth about your self and I'll get back to you,
spanking compulsive apologist.

You lie.



  #28  
Old February 7th 06, 09:52 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


Doan wrote:
LOL! The lying Kane0 got caught and can't handle the truth.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! ;-)


About you? Sure I can. Tell us about you. Read your own posts outloud.

Look at what you defend and what you attack. Do a little statistical
analysis of your posting history.

0:-

Why are you shouting?



Doan

On 7 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

........more lying evasive nonsense......

Try posting the truth about your self and I'll get back to you,
spanking compulsive apologist.

You lie.



  #29  
Old February 7th 06, 09:58 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

On 7 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
LOL! The lying Kane0 got caught and can't handle the truth.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! ;-)


About you? Sure I can. Tell us about you. Read your own posts outloud.

LOL! What do you want to know about me? I don't hide behind a pseudonym!

Look at what you defend and what you attack. Do a little statistical
analysis of your posting history.

I didn't call anyone a "smelly-****"! ;-)

0:-

Why are you shouting?


Because the anti-spanking zealotS have their fingers in the ears, their
heads under the sand and pretending that they are the emperors. ;-)

Doan


  #30  
Old February 8th 06, 12:25 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Doan wrote:
On 7 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
LOL! The lying Kane0 got caught and can't handle the truth.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! ;-)


About you? Sure I can. Tell us about you. Read your own posts outloud.

LOL! What do you want to know about me? I don't hide behind a pseudonym!

Look at what you defend and what you attack. Do a little statistical
analysis of your posting history.

I didn't call anyone a "smelly-****"! ;-)


We can always count on you to signal clearly when you have exposed your
ass.

R R R R R R to bad child. Others can read and think.

0:-

Why are you shouting?


Because the anti-spanking zealotS have their fingers in the ears, their
heads under the sand and pretending that they are the emperors. ;-)


So tell us this "TRUTH" you are yelling then?

It's like "The Question," isn't it droany? The line is where ever you
spankers say it is. R R R R R R.

What a child you are.

Doan


 




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