A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » alt.parenting » Spanking
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The Question, again



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 20th 06, 05:40 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again

A punishing predicament
Spanking still provokes debate among parents, psychologists
Sunday, February 19, 2006
Mark Ellis
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
EVANGELIA PHILIPPIDIS | DISPATCH

(S)torm warnings were in the air as a 13-year-old George Chatters
approached his East Side home on his bike. ''People in the
neighborhood were saying my dad was looking for me," recalled Chatters,
39. ''He was touring the city in his car."

The youth had broken a family rule not to leave the area without
permission.

The enforcer: Dad's belt.

''I got it really good when I got home," he said. ''I was
hardheaded."

As a father of two, the Pickerington resident favors a less-physical
approach to discipline, although he keeps spanking in his toolbox as a
last resort.

Many other Americans do, too.

Despite a move away from spanking in recent decades, a majority of U.S.
parents still approve of - and sometimes rely on - corporal
punishment.

In 1968, according to the Family Research Laboratory at the University
of New Hampshire, 94 percent of parents deemed spanking sometimes
necessary - a figure that dropped to 61 percent by 2004, according to
a national survey commissioned by the Center for Child and Family
Studies in San Francisco.

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

Monitored by discipline experts, the case has refueled debate about
physical punishment that causes pain but not injury to a child.

Psychologists are divided over any ban on the physical punishment of
children, but even those who see no harm in occasional spanking view it
as potentially damaging when used severely or as the main method of
discipline.

In a survey, most pediatricians said they advise against physical
punishment.

The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of
Pediatrics have asked educators to stop spanking students, but the
groups haven't told parents never to spank their children.

Physical punishment is outlawed in 14 nations and limited in Canada to
those older than 3 and younger than 13.

Twenty-eight states ban such punishment in schools. Ohio leaves the
decision to individual districts; about 25 of 613 permit the practice.

Chatters, an author and enrollment adviser at Columbus State Community
College, has 11- and 3-year-old daughters with wife Adrienne.

He counts on spanking as the "last layer of discipline - when
there's no other means to rectify the problem."

"It's really not necessary to always physically punish," he said. "It
can be a stern look or commenting . . . that I'm very disappointed,
and then here come the tears."

His next step might be to take away TV, computer or telephone time.

Cari Brackett, an associate professor of pharmacy and family medicine
at Ohio State University, remembers slapping her son at age 2 while
changing a diaper. He had kicked her in the face. "I was hit a lot as a
child," said the Grandview Heights mother, 48. "It was a reaction on my
part. We both cried." In the 12 years since, the boy hasn't been
struck in discipline. The approach that Brackett - along with her
husband, David Anderson - considers most effective is based on
discussing problems and modeling behavior.

"A child is a reflection of who you are and what you have taught him,"
she said. "If you deal with a child as a wellintentioned,
willing-to-learn, willing-to-please little person, and if you don't
put them in a position where they can get themselves into trouble, they
will do as you ask because they love you."

A child who is struck, Brackett said, learns that hitting is
acceptable.

"We're admitting we don't know what else to do."

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

"Almost all child abuse starts with hitting or shaking," he said.

As experts acknowledge, however, mild physical punishment is at least
immediately effective.

Spanking works in the short term, research indicates, but no better
than other methods, said Murray Straus, co-director of the Family
Research Laboratory.

"The parent says: 'That's wrong. You've hurt your brother.'
Almost always, the child stops," he said. "Just like if you slap a
child's hand, they almost always stop.

"Whatever you do, it takes many repetitions," he said, because toddlers
lack control of their behavior.

"In the longer run, spanking is less effective because it builds up an
immunity. And, bit by bit, it chips away at the bond between child and
parent."

As studies show, Straus said, children subjected to frequent physical
punishment suffer depression as adults.

Those who say they are unharmed by childhood beatings, he said, are
"the lucky ones."

Strict-parenting advocate John Rosemond - a psychologist, columnist
and public speaker from Gastonia, N.C. - challenges such conclusions.

He doesn't advocate spanking but calls it not necessarily harmful.

"Sometimes, with children, you have to do something dramatic in order
to create a memory," he said.

Corporal punishment is most effective with ages 2 to 6, he said, and
might be appropriate - but rarely - through 10.

"If you find yourself spanking a lot or . . . on some regular basis
with a child older than 6, the message is quite clear: Spanking is not
working."

It should never be impulsive, even in the face of "belligerent
defiance," Rosemond said.

"Cool yourself down."

The hand is the best tool for the job, he said: An adult whose hand
begins to sting while spanking should stop.

A biblical reference (Proverbs 13:24) about the use of a rod for
discipline is metaphorical, Rosemond and Fathman said.

They cited it as the cause of too much spanking with an object by
parents who interpret the Bible literally.

"The rod was the guiding staff of shepherds," Fathman said. "The rod
was a tool for guidance, not inflicting pain."



  #2  
Old February 20th 06, 05:35 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kane shows his STUPIDITY, again The Question, again


Did you bother to read the Copyright notice, ignoranus kane0? ;-)

http://www.dispatch.com/features-sto...219-H1-00.html

[email protected], The Columbus Dispatch, Reproduction prohibited

Doan

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

A punishing predicament
Spanking still provokes debate among parents, psychologists
Sunday, February 19, 2006
Mark Ellis
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
EVANGELIA PHILIPPIDIS | DISPATCH

(S)torm warnings were in the air as a 13-year-old George Chatters
approached his East Side home on his bike. ''People in the
neighborhood were saying my dad was looking for me," recalled Chatters,
39. ''He was touring the city in his car."

The youth had broken a family rule not to leave the area without
permission.

The enforcer: Dad's belt.

''I got it really good when I got home," he said. ''I was
hardheaded."

As a father of two, the Pickerington resident favors a less-physical
approach to discipline, although he keeps spanking in his toolbox as a
last resort.

Many other Americans do, too.

Despite a move away from spanking in recent decades, a majority of U.S.
parents still approve of - and sometimes rely on - corporal
punishment.

In 1968, according to the Family Research Laboratory at the University
of New Hampshire, 94 percent of parents deemed spanking sometimes
necessary - a figure that dropped to 61 percent by 2004, according to
a national survey commissioned by the Center for Child and Family
Studies in San Francisco.

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

Monitored by discipline experts, the case has refueled debate about
physical punishment that causes pain but not injury to a child.

Psychologists are divided over any ban on the physical punishment of
children, but even those who see no harm in occasional spanking view it
as potentially damaging when used severely or as the main method of
discipline.

In a survey, most pediatricians said they advise against physical
punishment.

The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of
Pediatrics have asked educators to stop spanking students, but the
groups haven't told parents never to spank their children.

Physical punishment is outlawed in 14 nations and limited in Canada to
those older than 3 and younger than 13.

Twenty-eight states ban such punishment in schools. Ohio leaves the
decision to individual districts; about 25 of 613 permit the practice.

Chatters, an author and enrollment adviser at Columbus State Community
College, has 11- and 3-year-old daughters with wife Adrienne.

He counts on spanking as the "last layer of discipline - when
there's no other means to rectify the problem."

"It's really not necessary to always physically punish," he said. "It
can be a stern look or commenting . . . that I'm very disappointed,
and then here come the tears."

His next step might be to take away TV, computer or telephone time.

Cari Brackett, an associate professor of pharmacy and family medicine
at Ohio State University, remembers slapping her son at age 2 while
changing a diaper. He had kicked her in the face. "I was hit a lot as a
child," said the Grandview Heights mother, 48. "It was a reaction on my
part. We both cried." In the 12 years since, the boy hasn't been
struck in discipline. The approach that Brackett - along with her
husband, David Anderson - considers most effective is based on
discussing problems and modeling behavior.

"A child is a reflection of who you are and what you have taught him,"
she said. "If you deal with a child as a wellintentioned,
willing-to-learn, willing-to-please little person, and if you don't
put them in a position where they can get themselves into trouble, they
will do as you ask because they love you."

A child who is struck, Brackett said, learns that hitting is
acceptable.

"We're admitting we don't know what else to do."

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

"Almost all child abuse starts with hitting or shaking," he said.

As experts acknowledge, however, mild physical punishment is at least
immediately effective.

Spanking works in the short term, research indicates, but no better
than other methods, said Murray Straus, co-director of the Family
Research Laboratory.

"The parent says: 'That's wrong. You've hurt your brother.'
Almost always, the child stops," he said. "Just like if you slap a
child's hand, they almost always stop.

"Whatever you do, it takes many repetitions," he said, because toddlers
lack control of their behavior.

"In the longer run, spanking is less effective because it builds up an
immunity. And, bit by bit, it chips away at the bond between child and
parent."

As studies show, Straus said, children subjected to frequent physical
punishment suffer depression as adults.

Those who say they are unharmed by childhood beatings, he said, are
"the lucky ones."

Strict-parenting advocate John Rosemond - a psychologist, columnist
and public speaker from Gastonia, N.C. - challenges such conclusions.

He doesn't advocate spanking but calls it not necessarily harmful.

"Sometimes, with children, you have to do something dramatic in order
to create a memory," he said.

Corporal punishment is most effective with ages 2 to 6, he said, and
might be appropriate - but rarely - through 10.

"If you find yourself spanking a lot or . . . on some regular basis
with a child older than 6, the message is quite clear: Spanking is not
working."

It should never be impulsive, even in the face of "belligerent
defiance," Rosemond said.

"Cool yourself down."

The hand is the best tool for the job, he said: An adult whose hand
begins to sting while spanking should stop.

A biblical reference (Proverbs 13:24) about the use of a rod for
discipline is metaphorical, Rosemond and Fathman said.

They cited it as the cause of too much spanking with an object by
parents who interpret the Bible literally.

"The rod was the guiding staff of shepherds," Fathman said. "The rod
was a tool for guidance, not inflicting pain."





  #3  
Old February 20th 06, 05:43 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know
him, Kane? ;-) So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning
a car is better than spanking!

Doan


  #4  
Old February 20th 06, 08:46 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again


Doan wrote:
On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)


So do you think he did?

Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?

Where is your line, Doan?

Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."


By golly, Doan, my apologies. You were right and I was wrong. Fathman
did in fact suggest a "reprimand," and toto missed that, or didn't read
that post.

How about that. Now call me a liar and show what a fool you are.

The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.

Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know
him, Kane? ;-)


I don't think so. The name's not familiar. I don't substitute one kind
of punishment for another. I'm a bit put off with you for not noticing
that after all these years, even though I've argued this with you in
the past. You seem to selectively forget things to make your silly
schoolboy challenges.

I'm curious about this article. They list him as a Dublin resident, yet
a Columbus organization president. Is there a Dublin in Ohio?

So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning
a car is better than spanking!


Some might. Not all. I'm an anti-spanking advocate, and I don't support
punishment of any kind for teaching. I understand you do though, if
your defense of Singapore, and spanking parents, and R R R Dobson, are
any indication.

Where would you find that as a general rule, all anti-spanking
advocates support other punishments in it's place, and what makes you
think that all those that advocate other than CP all think other
punishments are warranted?

Doan


Your childish challenges are noted for what they a a lack of
creativity and lack of honesty or intelligence on your part.

It's a shame something is blocking you getting in touch with more than
the tiny repertoire of school yard bully responses you seem to be
limited to. You seem to be such an intelligent fellow.

Haven't figure out yet how to send a package to someone without it
going to their home address? Easiest thing in the world. My offer to
toto is still open. And I do not want her home address. Nor need it.

You make all these offers but you never follow through. How is that?

No one seems to want to have contact with you. Even Alina was reluctant
to send you a stamped self addressed envelope. Gosh. I'd have thought
at she would trust you. 0:-

Kane

  #5  
Old February 20th 06, 09:01 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default !CORRECTIONS! The Question, again

[[[ Repeat of prior message, with small typographical errors corrected,
in CAPS ]]]

Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for

disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)


So do you think he did?

Once upon a time you made the argument, (AND YES I HAVE THE POST HANDY)
when CPS followed a judge's orders (as they are required to do, by law),
that "just following orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people
in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?

Where is your line, Doan?


Keeping youngsters busy and redirecting their behavior before trouble
starts represent the best strategies, Dublin psychologist Robert
Fathman said.

A spoken reprimand usually suffices - followed by a task or chore
"that benefits the injured party."



By golly, Doan, my apologies. You were right and I was wrong. Fathman
did in fact suggest a "reprimand," and toto missed that, or didn't read
that post.

How about that. Now call me a liar and show what a fool you are.


The 60-year-old father of four grown children was fond of making them
clean his car as punishment.

Fathman serves as president of the nonprofit Center for Effective
Discipline in Columbus - which opposes physical punishment.


Hah! hah! hah! This Dr. Fathman is a real character! Do you know
him, Kane? ;-)



I don't think so. The name's not familiar. I don't substitute one kind
of punishment for another. I'm a bit put off with you for not noticing
that after all these years, even though I've argued this with you in
the past. You seem to selectively forget things to make your silly
schoolboy challenges.

I'm curious about this article. They list him as a Dublin resident, yet
a Columbus organization president. Is there a Dublin in Ohio?


So anti-spanking zealotS now think that cleaning
a car is better than spanking!



Some might. Not all. I'm an anti-spanking advocate, and I don't support
punishment of any kind for teaching. I understand you do though, if
your defense of Singapore, and spanking parents, and R R R Dobson, are
any indication.

Where would you find that as a general rule; THAT all anti-spanking
advocates support other punishments in it's place, and what makes you
think that all those that advocate other than CP all think other
punishments are warranted?

Doan


Your childish challenges are noted for what they a a lack of
creativity and lack of honesty or intelligence on your part.

It's a shame something is blocking you getting in touch with more than
the tiny repertoire of school yard bully responses you seem to be
limited to. You seem to be such an intelligent fellow.

Haven't figure out yet how to send a package to someone without it
going to their home address? Easiest thing in the world. My offer to
toto is still open. And I do not want her home address. Nor need it.

You make all these offers but you never follow through. How is that?

No one seems to want to have contact with you. Even Alina was reluctant
to send you a stamped self addressed envelope. Gosh. I'd have thought
at LEAST she would trust you. 0:-

Kane

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
  #6  
Old February 21st 06, 01:30 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again

On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.

So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)


So do you think he did?

It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?

Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?

I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.

Where is your line, Doan?

It's where "reasonable" people say it is?

Doan


  #7  
Old February 21st 06, 06:39 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again

Doan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)


So do you think he did?


It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?


Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?


I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.


You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you
are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of
information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging.

Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be
wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just
following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the
judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents?


Where is your line, Doan?


It's where "reasonable" people say it is?


I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of
things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with
switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some
will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the
child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with
all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct
conflict with each other.

You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they
don't all agree?


Doan


What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally
believe is reasonable.

0:-

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
  #8  
Old February 21st 06, 06:31 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?


It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?


Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?


I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.


You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you
are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of
information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging.

One more time, I don't comment on this case unless I have all the
information. I am not going to second-guess the judge in this case.
Give me the court transcript; point out to me where he erred.

Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be
wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just
following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the
judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents?

The burden of proof is on you. You are saying that the judge is wrong
then prove it!


Where is your line, Doan?


It's where "reasonable" people say it is?


I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of
things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with
switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some
will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the
child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with
all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct
conflict with each other.

Exactly! In some places, the speed limit is 15mph, in others it's 55mph!
Got it?

You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they
don't all agree?

Yes! We can be "reasonable" without agreeing. I though beccafromlalaland
already told you that! ;-)


Doan


What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally
believe is reasonable.

What I PERSONALLY BELIEVE is my business! Why do you always want to stick
your nose into other people' asses? So that you can tell them that it
stinks? ;-)

Doan


  #9  
Old February 21st 06, 07:58 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Question, again


Doan wrote:
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:

On 19 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:


The topic - particularly the question of when physical punishment
becomes abuse - lay at the heart of a Hamilton County Municipal Court
case in Cincinnati that involved former City Councilman Sam Malone.

He was found not guilty of domestic violence on Friday. He had been
accused of beating his 14-year-old son with a belt for disrespecting a
teacher.

The teenager suffered welts on his arms, legs, chest and buttocks.


So did he crossed "the line", ignoranus kane0? ;-)

So do you think he did?


It doesn't matter what I think, it is what the judge thinks that matter.
So what did the judge think?


Once upon a time you made the argument, when CPS followed a judges
orders (as they are required to do, by law), that "just following
orders" is not a defense for immoral acts by people in authority.

Do you believe the court was correct in aquiting someone that left
welts on a child's arms, legs, chest and buttocks using a belt?


I don't have all the fact of the case. If you have access to the
transcript of the case, I will be glad to look at it.


You are dodging. You have as much information as anyone reading, and you
are willing to make comments on it given just this amount of
information, until you are asked a question. That is dodging.

One more time, I don't comment on this case unless I have all the
information.


You seem quite willing to do in other instances where you lack "all the
information." Why so reluctant in this one? And you make demands that
others make such judgements without them having all the
information...some of which it's found later YOU deliberately withheld.


Why do you do those things I wonder?

I am not going to second-guess the judge in this case.


Sure you do. You all ready have.

Give me the court transcript; point out to me where he erred.


Are you unwilling to look for the court transcript yourself, or do you
think it not available?
You want to make a comment on something, which you did in this case,
and when called on it you suddenly become shy. Why is that I wonder?

Here's what the judge said, and it indicates even HE does not believe
the law is correct, though he is forced to follow it:

"Still, the judge criticized Malone's reasoning. The former councilman
had testified he hit his son to teach him respect and integrity in an
environment in which the city saw 79 homicides last year, most of them
black-on-black crimes.

"Have you ever stopped to think about, instead of instilling discipline
that you testified to, that you might be instilling violence by taking
those actions, sir?" said Mock. "If we are ever going to stop the
circle of violence in our community, I would suggest that you might
want to take a long, hard thought about that.""

In that you'll find arguments that those opposed to your support for CP
have posted here before.

Do you believe that following the law is always moral and correct? You
did not when it was a CPS case, apparently, invoking the "good german"
argument.

Given that you can in one circumstance, claim the authorities could be
wrong and following them is tantamount to using the "I was just
following orders" invalid defense, do you believe that in THIS case the
judge WAS right and his finding used as a guide for parents?

The burden of proof is on you. You are saying that the judge is wrong
then prove it!


I did. The judge said so himself. He followed the law. He did not agree
with it.

And no, the burden of proof isn't on me just because you declare it to
be. YOU have a responsibility to back up YOUR claims, something you
rarely do when cornered and the outcome is NOT going to go your way and
you know it. Just like now.

So, as long as the law says it's okay to injure the child, as was the
case here, physically most certainly as the hospital noted, and likely
psychologically, you are good with that as being where your "line" is
at the moment?

Is this what they call selective morality?


Where is your line, Doan?


It's where "reasonable" people say it is?


I didn't ask you t use such a dodge. They say a wide different of
things. Some will say that it's okay to strike little babies with
switches, while others say it's okay to leave marks with a belt. Some
will say it's okay to slap a child's face, other restrict only to the
child's buttocks. Each thinks they are reasonable. You can't agree with
all of them when some of these "reasonable" people are in direct
conflict with each other.

Exactly! In some places, the speed limit is 15mph, in others it's 55mph!
Got it?


Sure. Do you "got it?"

So you are saying that as long as the law says it's okay, then it's
okay?

This morning, as I went for my paper to the local store I was in a 35
mile an hour zone. I slowed to almost 25. It would have been legal for
me to pass that jogger at 35 and splash her with icy slush. Would it
have been moral? Suppose I had lost control, at 35 mph and slide into
her? Legal? NO, it would NOT be.

As the judge in the case made clear, the man should NOT have beaten his
son.

"The photographs show welts on the boy's buttocks, back, stomach, arms
and legs, including at least one mark that appeared to be from a belt
buckle.

The boy testified that Malone continued to hit him after he fell to the
floor in pain. Malone, a former boxer and wrestler, testified that he
subdued his son with a wrestling maneuver and hit him after the boy
tried to grab the belt."

You see, even the father didn't call it a "spanking." He admitted he
"hit" his son. At least HE'S honest.

You'll go along with '"reasonable"' 'people?' Even though you know they
don't all agree?

Yes! We can be "reasonable" without agreeing.


Nope. Not in a matter such as this. Either it is reasonable to cause
pain, in the name of teaching, to a child or it isn't. There's really
no such thing as middle ground here, any more than one can be a little
big pregnant, or a little bit dead.

You have a lot of maturing to do, young man. And I think your parents
either needed to spank you more, under your belief system, or not at
all under mine.

Whichever is reasonable. Which do you think is?

Why are you changing the subject below?

I though beccafromlalaland
already told you that! ;-)


What would that have to do with you? 0;-


Doan


What is your line. Not theirs, not the judges. What do you personally
believe is reasonable.

What I PERSONALLY BELIEVE is my business!


Why are you yelling? Of course it's your business. Precisely why I
asked.

Where or not you admit to it is also your business, and ours to observe
and contemplate.
We see how willing you are to share some things, and not others about
your beliefs.

Isn't it nice to make up the rules as you go along? We notice that with
spanked children a lot. They tend to be sneaky and sly, and
manipulative, and have poor personal as well as social
boundaries...just...like...that.

Why do you always want to stick
your nose into other people' asses?


Their "belief" is not their ass.

Though if you wish to claim yours is, at it seems by that question you
are doing, then go right ahead. I just consider it your opinion, your
belief, not your ass, and I asked for your belief, not your ass.

So that you can tell them that it
stinks? ;-)


Now isn't that odd? You appear to be equating your belief with your ass
that stinks.

YOU, of all people, who demands that others answer your personal
questions.

You who make it a practice to bring up their personal business and use
it to harass.

Daring them to do this or that. Screaming at Chris about his claims of
being an instructor and demanding he prove it.

Demanding I tell posters, such as becca, what my credentials are.

Tsk Doan. Tsk.

One rule for you and another for others?

How childish.

Especially since you DID in fact share your personal business quite
willingly when you admitted your parents spanked you. When, I suppose,
it suited your purpose.

Why so reluctant to share now?

No cogent answer? Or one that might compromise your claim to
neutrality?

You are lacking in conviction and willing to take the next change of
position, as long as it somehow supports your posting here as an
advocate of spanking.

Your postings are full of this same wishy washy waffling on this issue.


You cannot say what is abusive and what isn't, even now with a judge
saying it was wrong but "within the law." That's not an answer, Doan.
Not at all. Unless you wish to agree with us, the folks opposed to CP,
that it's dangerous physically and socially. Do you?

That's what a "reasonable" judge said.

It's 35 mph, unless conditions warrant otherwise, Doan. You seem so
unable to grasp such concepts.

Doan


Kane

References:
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs....WS01/602180374

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...55/1077/news01

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...EWS01/50516006

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...IT01/505170309

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant beccafromlalaland Spanking 128 February 16th 06 10:52 PM
Question #2 for Dr. Sarah Vaughan (should women have to ASK?) Todd Gastaldo Pregnancy 9 November 8th 04 12:03 AM
Doan lies yet again..was.. Kane0 lies again Doan's phony offer to "debate" Kane Spanking 6 May 14th 04 02:10 AM
Classic Droan was R R R R, should I DOUBLE DARE HIM? ..was... LaVonne Kane Spanking 0 April 17th 04 07:13 PM
Kids should work... bobb General 108 December 15th 03 04:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.