What to do next

: I hate bars. But that's up to you.

Wow, thanks Mom.

: Still meeting a couple at a bar
: and then taking them home for sex seems risky to me in terms
: of both stds and possible trouble from the couple on other fronts.

How did that ever become the issue? That's sort of **our decision** isn't
it? As in, none of your business? We were talking about *expenses*,
remember? A couple of beers at a bar, a couple of times a month, isn't
going to pay for long term therapy!!! JESUS!!


:
: And drinking is expensive too. Cutting back on alcohol consumption
: might save you quite a bit.


Oh. My. God. I can't believe I'm reading this. I drink **maybe** a 12-pack
of beer a *month.* How much therapy is that going to buy? What, you want
to see my entire grocery budget for the whole month, so you can tell me I
buy too much spaghetti sauce and the Prego sauce is 5 cents cheaper? Give
me a ****ing break!

(I'm sitting here eating a bowl of soup right now...gosh I guess I coulda
done without that, huh? I mean plain chicken broth *is* cheaper after all.)
--
ColoradoSkiBum

: : Perhaps give up the swinging stuff - that has to cost money at some
: : point..
:
: Actually no--I've never paid for sex. Have you?
:
: There's no entertainment costs associated with that? They just come over
and,
: um, bingo bim bam? Or what?

No--we might meet at a bar, have a drink or 2 (oops, there's 12 bucks), then
go to their house. A cheap night. I suppose next you're going to tell me
that that all adds up? That 12 bucks a couple of times a month will pay for
something significant?
--
ColoradoSkiBum

"Banty" wrote in message
...
: In article , ColoradoSkiBum
: says...
:
: BTW Barbara, I'm still waiting to hear about those overseas vacations
that
: I've described previously. If you find out where we went, do let me
know,
: would you? Details would be nice so I can find out if we had fun or not.
: --
: ColoradoSkiBum
:
:
: Yet another evasion of the source of your family problem - abandonment.
You had
: a part in it. Evasion doesn't look good - you really need to deal with
this.
:
: No wonder he won't open up to you. You won't deal with it here, it's a
pretty
: good bet you refuse to deal with it IRL.
:

Ahh, yes, I did forget to answer her questions. Forgive me.

Was the problem created by dad leaving? To be perfectly honest, I'm not
sure--he may have had these problems before dad left, but dad can't
remember. SS was 6 when dad left. Dad had his own *huge* problems at that
time, many medical problems, had lost his job and was living with his
mother. He had literally nothing when we met--everything he owned fit in
the back seat of my '89 Honda Civic. So he was a bit focused on himself,
and I guess I was really the only thing he had, and I lived in Missouri. I
had my own set of circumstances that prevented me from leaving Missouri, so
he moved there to live with me and get back on his feet. I *know* he did
not explain this to his son and daughter at the time--his daughter was 3
(could a 3-year-old even comprehend such a thing?), and he just didn't want
to go into it with his son. I think he was pretty embarassed about the
whole thing. And now he hasn't explained it because, I think, he doesn't
want to reopen that chapter of his life--or perhaps he doesn't know how to
start explaining. Just walk up to the kid and start telling his life story?
I think family therapy will give him/us an avenue for exploring that. He
has a hard time showing any weakness to his son, since one major source of
fear in his son's life was his mother was stability. Where were they going
to live? Where would she work? He doesn't want to give his son any sense
that there's any sort of instability here. And since the medical issues
that caused him to lose his job 6 years ago are still very much with him,
and probably always will be, he's hesitant to discuss them with his
almost-teenage son and introduce another stressor into his life.

Would dad have reappeared into his son's life if mom hadn't been so
incompetent? Well, let's back up. I think "incompetent" is the wrong word.
I think she did the best she knew how to do. She just didn't want to expend
any effort at it, and she didn't know how to deal with him when he acted
out. So, back to the question. Yes, I'm sure dad would have "reappeared"
as you put it. He's always made it clear to me that his kids could come and
live with us at any time if they so decided. For the first couple of years
that wasn't possible; he had his own **** to deal with, was even on welfare
for a while, and that's not the sort of environment you move a child *into.*
After we moved to Colorado, we started talking about what would happen if
either/both of the kids suddenly decided they wanted to come live here. The
timetable on the son was moved up considerably when these problems started
getting more pronounced, and it was obvious that the environment he was in
with his mother was not helping--she would come right out and tell him that
they could never go anywhere because he would ruin any family vacation, etc.
And they never *did* anything, just sat at home and watched TV because
that's all his mother is interested in doing--that and shopping.

So, 2 summers ago (2001), when son and daughter were here visiting, we
decided after observing him with his sister that we would keep him here to
live with us. He didn't even *ask* his ex, even though she is the custodial
parent of both kids (and still is, technically); he called her and suggested
that his son might be better off here, she put up a token "let me think
about it," then she called back 30 minutes later to say okay. She didn't
really have any choice; if she hadn't said ok, we would have kept him here
anyway. (Legally they have joint custody.) But like I said, she put up
only a token fight, not even a fight, more like a token "moment of
consideration." It was obvious that she didn't really want him anyway, so
it wasn't an issue.

Anyway, back to the question. Would he have come back into his son's life?
Yes, he always was--both kids would come and stay with us for a month in the
summer. But would he have brought his son here to live with him? He would
have offered it, yes. Forced it, no.

As for the sister, she is welcome to come and live with us also, but not
right now. Right now she's a little girl and she needs her mommy. She
**loves** shopping for shoes, clothes, getting her nails done, all the
girlie things her mom likes doing. But we can certainly envision a time,
when she gets older, where she starts feeling stifled, because her mother is
taking away too much of her independence. We see changes in her every year,
things that tell us she's starting to turn into her mother and be afraid of
everything. Ever since 9/11, mom has insisted that the daughter is
*terrified of flying.* Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact
she's flying out here by herself for Christmas. It's her *mother* that's
terrified of flying. Afraid of skiing. Afraid to go swimming in the Gulf.
Afraid--and I'm not making this up!!--to drive from Denver to Salt Lake City
over Interstate 70! So she'll deprive her children of all the things *she*
is irrationally afraid of. **THAT** is the biggest reason her son lives
with us now, and the reason I think her daughter will eventually decide
she's had enough.
--
ColoradoSkiBum

ColoradoSkiBum wrote:

: I *know* he did not explain this to his son and daughter at the time--his
: daughter was 3 (could a 3-year-old even comprehend such a thing?), and
: he just didn't want to go into it with his son.

Six is definitely old enough to remember an abandonment of this
proportion. I think it'll go a long way in helping your SS if his father
has a heart-to-heart about why he left so suddenly and didn't even say
goodbye or explain why. Family therapy will be a good place for this to
happen. Young children personalize everything. As Dorothy said, there's
a good chance your SS feels the abandonment had everything to do with him.
Certainly, that belief isn't going to be promoting high self esteem.

Noreen

"Noreen Cooper" wrote in message
...
: ColoradoSkiBum wrote:
:
: : I *know* he did not explain this to his son and daughter at the
time--his
: : daughter was 3 (could a 3-year-old even comprehend such a thing?), and
: : he just didn't want to go into it with his son.
:
: Six is definitely old enough to remember an abandonment of this
: proportion. I think it'll go a long way in helping your SS if his father
: has a heart-to-heart about why he left so suddenly and didn't even say
: goodbye or explain why. Family therapy will be a good place for this to
: happen. Young children personalize everything. As Dorothy said, there's
: a good chance your SS feels the abandonment had everything to do with him.
: Certainly, that belief isn't going to be promoting high self esteem.

Yes, you're probably right! I'm not sure if SS exhibited any of these
behaviors in kg--my husband can't remember--but even if he did, the fact
that the downhill slide started when dad left goes a long way in explaining
things. FWIW, I do know that mom and dad split up right after he was born,
then got back together just long enough to have another child, then split up
again, for good this time. So dad was in and out of his life for the first
3 years, then gone but at least still in the neighborhood for 3 years, the
gone for good.

And he does have **very** low self-esteem--even things he's good at, he just
doesn't believe it, even if you tell him he did a good job, he can't believe
it's true. That's why skiing is so important to us. It's something he can
do, that he's good at and he is finally at a point where he *knows* he's
good at it. We've told him enough times, and we're not making it up, so
it's a HUGE confidence booster for him. He needs to be good at something,
and that's it--and that's worth EVERYTHING.
--
ColoradoSkiBum

In article , ColoradoSkiBum
says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
: In article , ColoradoSkiBum
: says...
:
: BTW Barbara, I'm still waiting to hear about those overseas vacations
that
: I've described previously. If you find out where we went, do let me
know,
: would you? Details would be nice so I can find out if we had fun or not.
: --
: ColoradoSkiBum
:
:
: Yet another evasion of the source of your family problem - abandonment.
You had
: a part in it. Evasion doesn't look good - you really need to deal with
this.
:
: No wonder he won't open up to you. You won't deal with it here, it's a
pretty
: good bet you refuse to deal with it IRL.
:


(top posting over this stuff)

So you had your reasons, your stuff, you just had to stay in Missouri, for
'circumstances'; he had his reasons, his stuff, his problems, everyone's got
reasons, everyone seems to have had '**** to deal with'.

All adding up to kids left behind. Far behind. For years and years. It's
been all about everything but the kids.

And all this about how and whether or not everyone in Florida can or will come
to *you* and do *your* activities. And you want to protect your family from
dealing with it all, and you still don't get that you had something to do with
the whole situation.

This is not where kids need to go into their parents' lives, CSB.

You seriously, seriously need this family therapy. You should consider
individual counselling for yourself. Your husband too.

Banty


Ahh, yes, I did forget to answer her questions. Forgive me.

Was the problem created by dad leaving? To be perfectly honest, I'm not
sure--he may have had these problems before dad left, but dad can't
remember. SS was 6 when dad left. Dad had his own *huge* problems at that
time, many medical problems, had lost his job and was living with his
mother. He had literally nothing when we met--everything he owned fit in
the back seat of my '89 Honda Civic. So he was a bit focused on himself,
and I guess I was really the only thing he had, and I lived in Missouri. I
had my own set of circumstances that prevented me from leaving Missouri, so
he moved there to live with me and get back on his feet. I *know* he did
not explain this to his son and daughter at the time--his daughter was 3
(could a 3-year-old even comprehend such a thing?), and he just didn't want
to go into it with his son. I think he was pretty embarassed about the
whole thing. And now he hasn't explained it because, I think, he doesn't
want to reopen that chapter of his life--or perhaps he doesn't know how to
start explaining. Just walk up to the kid and start telling his life story?
I think family therapy will give him/us an avenue for exploring that. He
has a hard time showing any weakness to his son, since one major source of
fear in his son's life was his mother was stability. Where were they going
to live? Where would she work? He doesn't want to give his son any sense
that there's any sort of instability here. And since the medical issues
that caused him to lose his job 6 years ago are still very much with him,
and probably always will be, he's hesitant to discuss them with his
almost-teenage son and introduce another stressor into his life.

Would dad have reappeared into his son's life if mom hadn't been so
incompetent? Well, let's back up. I think "incompetent" is the wrong word.
I think she did the best she knew how to do. She just didn't want to expend
any effort at it, and she didn't know how to deal with him when he acted
out. So, back to the question. Yes, I'm sure dad would have "reappeared"
as you put it. He's always made it clear to me that his kids could come and
live with us at any time if they so decided. For the first couple of years
that wasn't possible; he had his own **** to deal with, was even on welfare
for a while, and that's not the sort of environment you move a child *into.*
After we moved to Colorado, we started talking about what would happen if
either/both of the kids suddenly decided they wanted to come live here. The
timetable on the son was moved up considerably when these problems started
getting more pronounced, and it was obvious that the environment he was in
with his mother was not helping--she would come right out and tell him that
they could never go anywhere because he would ruin any family vacation, etc.
And they never *did* anything, just sat at home and watched TV because
that's all his mother is interested in doing--that and shopping.

So, 2 summers ago (2001), when son and daughter were here visiting, we
decided after observing him with his sister that we would keep him here to
live with us. He didn't even *ask* his ex, even though she is the custodial
parent of both kids (and still is, technically); he called her and suggested
that his son might be better off here, she put up a token "let me think
about it," then she called back 30 minutes later to say okay. She didn't
really have any choice; if she hadn't said ok, we would have kept him here
anyway. (Legally they have joint custody.) But like I said, she put up
only a token fight, not even a fight, more like a token "moment of
consideration." It was obvious that she didn't really want him anyway, so
it wasn't an issue.

Anyway, back to the question. Would he have come back into his son's life?
Yes, he always was--both kids would come and stay with us for a month in the
summer. But would he have brought his son here to live with him? He would
have offered it, yes. Forced it, no.

As for the sister, she is welcome to come and live with us also, but not
right now. Right now she's a little girl and she needs her mommy. She
**loves** shopping for shoes, clothes, getting her nails done, all the
girlie things her mom likes doing. But we can certainly envision a time,
when she gets older, where she starts feeling stifled, because her mother is
taking away too much of her independence. We see changes in her every year,
things that tell us she's starting to turn into her mother and be afraid of
everything. Ever since 9/11, mom has insisted that the daughter is
*terrified of flying.* Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact
she's flying out here by herself for Christmas. It's her *mother* that's
terrified of flying. Afraid of skiing. Afraid to go swimming in the Gulf.
Afraid--and I'm not making this up!!--to drive from Denver to Salt Lake City
over Interstate 70! So she'll deprive her children of all the things *she*
is irrationally afraid of. **THAT** is the biggest reason her son lives
with us now, and the reason I think her daughter will eventually decide
she's had enough.
--
ColoradoSkiBum

: : And drinking is expensive too. Cutting back on alcohol consumption
: : might save you quite a bit.

Hey I know! We could get rid of the dogs, take them to the humane society,
then we could save $35 a month on dog food! Good ideas guys--keep 'em
coming!
--
ColoradoSkiBum

Banty wrote in message ...
In article , ColoradoSkiBum
says...

: Since his family history has to be at least part of the problem, woudln't
family
: counselling be part of the solution?

Yes, I think it is, but only part--and without the individual component I
don't think "family" therapy would go anywhere. That would likely turn into
3 adults talking *at* him.

Newsflash: The necessary family therapy won't necessarily be about him.

Banty

Banty, that was uncalled for. It's apparent you have completely lost
any objectivity about this situation, so maybe it's time for you to
step back from the discussion. You're not adding value at this point,
you're just adding nastiness.

Marjorie

Barbara Bomberger wrote in message . ..


When kids need something, you find away. You dont say you cant afford
it, you dont have time, the kid's not cooperating, or whatever. This
is true whether it be therapy, counseling, medical procedures or a
million other things. You cant just say "I can't" , you find away.
Perod. That'w what parents do.

No, that's what SOME parents do. The residential schools, the juvie
halls, the adolescent detention centres are FILLED with children whose
parents could not, for whatever reason, have done counseling. You
apparently have the means to get all this stuff for your child, and
bravo for you. But let me tell you about a client I had who was not
able to:

A widow, mother of 5 children, one of whom was about the OP's son's
age, VERY VERY smart, but so emotionally disturbed he just couldn't
cope in a regular school setting. Mom, who was left *without*
insurance money from her spouse, a taxi driver, worked 2 jobs to pay
rent and feed her kids. She had no family to help her. Her friends
were in their own set of troubles, and she was essentially alone. Her
children were covered with medical insurance through the state
medicaid program, Healthy Families. She had no insurance coverage.

In addition, because of where she lived, she was *extremely limited*
in her options to get therapy for her child. I believe there were 4
therapists that would take her insurance and none that had an openings
in the practices. The city she lives in *does* have clinics, but they
did not take adolescents. They could not do family therapy because she
had no insurance coverage. Her insurance was not going to change...
she works one office job as an admin, and then a second job in a KFC,
neither offer insurance for a family.

Her options weren't open, she didn't have choices. She is poor, she
doesn't have decent health options, nor does she have any chance of
improving that situation. Your post would infuriate her. She's tried
so hard to get her son the help he needs, including hiring an attorney
(pro bono) and me (also pro bono) to help her deal with the maze of
special schools and special programs that might help her son. Bottom
line, the school system in her city paid for a residential program for
her son, and now she feels he is lost in the system.

What could she have done differently? Should she have quit her jobs
and homeschooled her son to keep him out of trouble? Should she have
left her hometown and her entire life and moved her family in this
economy with no education, little training, and just hoped she might
find a job someplace else? Should she have put her son in foster care?
Just WHAT do you think a parent in a situation like this can do to
make a better life for a troubled child?

Sorry, but even though I don't know this, I'd bet my bottom dollar
you're a white suburban mom with dual incomes and the idea that
everyone lifes just as you do. Guess what? They don't. Plenty of
people DO NOT HAVE THE OPTIONS YOU HAVE, and they're not going to get
them anytime soon. It took me a long time to learn this, but doing
advocacy work has really opened my eyes to what struggles people put
up with every day just to survive.

You folks havent been "parents" very
long (working with kids isnt the same), unless i missed something
about older children. If not, then maybe, just maybe, you might take
the advise from those who have been parents a really long time and
have gone through as much or worse??

Just a thought. Perhaps some of us actually do know about which we
speak? Most of the folks who have presented you with options have
grown children and have had their own crises with kids. NOt many of
us with kids (especially more than one) get through life withou t it.

But just because YOU have gone thru a crisis situation with YOUR child
doesn't mean that everyone else is going to handle their crisis the
same way. Like you, I have a child who has been in severe crisis more
than once, and unlike you, I've had to struggle terribly to get help
for him. My suicidal 8 yr old was unable to find ANY therapist to deal
with him, and pretty much everyone I spoke to told me the same thing:
take him to the hospital and put him in the psych ward on a 48 hour
hold. Like ANY sane parent would consider this for an 8 year old. You
might have done differently than I did, but there was no way I was
going to follow that "expert" advice.

Marjorie

: No, that's what SOME parents do. The residential schools, the juvie
: halls, the adolescent detention centres are FILLED with children whose
: parents could not, for whatever reason, have done counseling. You
: apparently have the means to get all this stuff for your child, and
: bravo for you. But let me tell you about a client I had who was not
: able to:

snip

Well, thank God, we do have insurance coverage. The mental health coverage
isn't great and is going to be a "family counseling" setup, but that's okay,
it's better than nothing at all. It beats the hell out of playing musical
therapists for $100 an hour, taking 6 months and thousands of dollars we
*don't have* to find the right one. And since he will be starting at the
"therapy school" as I like to call it, sometime at the beginning of
December, I think we're off to a good start.

The thing is, I think both his dad and I held out some sort of hope that
just by virtue of him coming to live here, that that would largely solve his
problems and make things better for him. His life in general is better,
there's no doubt about that. But his emotional/social problems have not
improved at all. It took us a while to figure this out, with all the school
changes and the horrible placement he was in last year that didn't get us
anywhere; we feel like we're basically a year behind, like we should have
been right in this exact situation exactly one year ago. But, I think that
my SS is much better able to verbalize the problem now, he's more ready to
deal with it, he *knows* there's a problem and is sick of it. I think that
one year ago, he would not have been ready to admit this; he wouldn't have
been able to say, yes, I have a problem. So maybe the interim year was not
such a bad thing. Just another stepping stone on the path I guess.
--
ColoradoSkiBum