What to do next

In article , chiam margalit
says...

Banty wrote in message
...
In article , ColoradoSkiBum
says...

: Since his family history has to be at least part of the problem, woudln't
family
: counselling be part of the solution?

Yes, I think it is, but only part--and without the individual component I
don't think "family" therapy would go anywhere. That would likely turn into
3 adults talking *at* him.

Newsflash: The necessary family therapy won't necessarily be about him.

Banty

Banty, that was uncalled for. It's apparent you have completely lost
any objectivity about this situation, so maybe it's time for you to
step back from the discussion. You're not adding value at this point,
you're just adding nastiness.

Irony, thy name is USENET.

Banty

On 17 Nov 2003 13:26:24 -0800, Banty wrote:


although in all honesty, I cannot imagine giving up skiing totally and
living in colorado. What would be the point? However, there are
frugal ways to ski, been there done that.

Believe it or not, I lived 8 years in Colorado without learning to ski, and
didnt' learn until I moved to upstate NY :-)

Lots of people in Colorado dont' ski. Natives may or may not be into the
playtimes everyone else might associate with where they're living.

By 'frugal' - do you mean just less hideously expensive (which, sure there are,
depending on what the family is already doing), or truly frugal? Truly frugal
would be the local ice pond with borrowed skates ;-)

Actually, my definition of frugal means cutting money in places that
dont havea priority in order to spend in places that are. MOst folks
living paycheck to paycheck don't make those hard decisions. They
also dont bother to make emergency funds..........

However, yes, we bough used skis, skid on the family plan, yadda yadda
and it was quite cheap, not hideously expnsive. It s not hideously
expensive in Germany, if one knows how to go about it.

But thats beside the original point.

My only problem is that th OP might make the kid feel like its all his
fault that the family is giving up skiing.

Barb

Banty

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:48:20 -0700, "ColoradoSkiBum"
wrote:

: Like many people, we are living paycheck-to-paycheck. So, since you seem
to
: have all the answers, I'll let you decide which one we should give up:
: rent?
: car insurance?
: electricity?
: car payment?
: groceries?
: telephone?
:
: Perhaps give up the swinging stuff - that has to cost money at some
: point..

Actually no--I've never paid for sex. Have you?

But you very likely have paid for dinner out, wine, membership in a
club.............

Barb

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:18:55 -0700, "ColoradoSkiBum"
wrote:

: No, that's what SOME parents do. The residential schools, the juvie
: halls, the adolescent detention centres are FILLED with children whose
: parents could not, for whatever reason, have done counseling. You
: apparently have the means to get all this stuff for your child, and
: bravo for you. But let me tell you about a client I had who was not
: able to:

snip

Well, thank God, we do have insurance coverage. The mental health coverage
isn't great and is going to be a "family counseling" setup, but that's okay,
it's better than nothing at all. It beats the hell out of playing musical
therapists for $100 an hour, taking 6 months and thousands of dollars we
*don't have* to find the right one. And since he will be starting at the
"therapy school" as I like to call it, sometime at the beginning of
December, I think we're off to a good start.

The thing is, I think both his dad and I held out some sort of hope that
just by virtue of him coming to live here, that that would largely solve his
problems and make things better for him. His life in general is better,
there's no doubt about that. But his emotional/social problems have not
improved at all. It took us a while to figure this out, with all the school
changes and the horrible placement he was in last year that didn't get us
anywhere; we feel like we're basically a year behind, like we should have
been right in this exact situation exactly one year ago. But, I think that
my SS is much better able to verbalize the problem now, he's more ready to
deal with it, he *knows* there's a problem and is sick of it. I think that
one year ago, he would not have been ready to admit this; he wouldn't have
been able to say, yes, I have a problem. So maybe the interim year was not
such a bad thing. Just another stepping stone on the path I guess.

Okay, but.............nad i guess this is where the problem is..it is
not HIS problem. It is a family problem, probably caused by childhood
issues. Keeping it as it being HIS problem is ignoring thie
situation.

B

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:01:35 -0700, "ColoradoSkiBum"
wrote:

BTW Barbara, I'm still waiting to hear about those overseas vacations that
I've described previously. If you find out where we went, do let me know,
would you? Details would be nice so I can find out if we had fun or not.

Its interesting. I dont mind admitting I made a mistake. People make
mistakces

However, you seem to have managed to avoid answering all the other
questions or comments, or justifying them as "not our fault".

I havent seen any response to the financial issues. If youre living
paycheck to paycheck, you already have problems, because you should
also be saving towards an emergency fund and your retirement. Living
beneath your means would be smarter and of course its possible.

AGain, it seems that you and hubby really arent willing to make some
hard choices about much of anything.

Is there any suggestion, from anyone here, that you have not responded
to with "we can't do that" or "but.". Do you really truly want to
find a solution or did you come here looking for sympathy and
validation?

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:41:56 -0700, "ColoradoSkiBum"
wrote:


"Banty" wrote in message
...
: In article , ColoradoSkiBum
: says...
:
: BTW Barbara, I'm still waiting to hear about those overseas vacations
that
: I've described previously. If you find out where we went, do let me
know,
: would you? Details would be nice so I can find out if we had fun or not.
: --
: ColoradoSkiBum
:
:
: Yet another evasion of the source of your family problem - abandonment.
You had
: a part in it. Evasion doesn't look good - you really need to deal with
this.
:
: No wonder he won't open up to you. You won't deal with it here, it's a
pretty
: good bet you refuse to deal with it IRL.
:

Ahh, yes, I did forget to answer her questions. Forgive me.

Was the problem created by dad leaving? To be perfectly honest, I'm not
sure--he may have had these problems before dad left, but dad can't
remember. SS was 6 when dad left. Dad had his own *huge* problems at that
time, many medical problems, had lost his job and was living with his
mother.

Problems so big that he was justified in removing him from his
children's life at six? HOw participatory a parent was he before he
left if he doesnt know if kid had problems then.

Parents have problems all the time. Parents lose jobs, they get sick,
they have issues. Many parents still hang around when they have these
issues. I would say trying to use any of the above to justify self to
son would be a bumch of bunk. He had literally nothing when we
met--everything he owned fit in

and I guess I was really the only thing he had, and I lived in Missouri.

No actually , he had his kids as well. Kids who he had prior
responsibilty for. He made a choice, to put leaving and you before
them.

had my own set of circumstances that prevented me from leaving Missouri, so
he moved there to live with me and get back on his feet. I *know* he did
not explain this to his son and daughter at the time--his daughter was 3
(could a 3-year-old even comprehend such a thing?), and he just didn't want
to go into it with his son. I think he was pretty embarassed about the
whole thing. And now he hasn't explained it because, I think, he doesn't
want to reopen that chapter of his life--or perhaps he doesn't know how to
start explaining. Just walk up to the kid and start telling his life story?

I would suggest that his son deserves it, that he deserved it along
time ago. Of course kids deserve explanations!


that caused him to lose his job 6 years ago are still very much with him,
and probably always will be, he's hesitant to discuss them with his
almost-teenage son and introduce another stressor into his life.

I would suggest that for kids, most of the time, knowing the facts is
better than not knowing. Eventually he will find out, and may
consider not being told the truth a betrayal. It may also make son
more sympathetic towards dad.

Would dad have reappeared into his son's life if mom hadn't been so
incompetent? Well, let's back up. I think "incompetent" is the wrong word.
I think she did the best she knew how to do. She just didn't want to expend
any effort at it, and she didn't know how to deal with him when he acted
out.

So what word would you use to describe the above behavior. And why
should the children have waited. Why wasnt dad taking the initiative
in being involved in their care.

Did he even visit during all this time he was gone?? Was he even a
weekend warrior? If he left at age six and reappeard however many
years later, then yes, I would say re appeard is the correct word.
Even if the kids couldnt come live with him, he could have been a
participant in their lives, even part time, and might have been able
to see what was happening.


So, 2 summers ago (2001), when son and daughter were here visiting, we
decided after observing him with his sister that we would keep him here to
live with us. He didn't even *ask* his ex, even though she is the custodial
parent of both kids (and still is, technically); he called her and suggested
that his son might be better off here, she put up a token "let me think
about it," then she called back 30 minutes later to say okay. She didn't
really have any choice; if she hadn't said ok, we would have kept him here
anyway. (Legally they have joint custody.) But like I said, she put up
only a token fight, not even a fight, more like a token "moment of
consideration." It was obvious that she didn't really want him anyway, so
it wasn't an issue.

Anyway, back to the question. Would he have come back into his son's life?
Yes, he always was--both kids would come and stay with us for a month in the
summer. But would he have brought his son here to live with him? He would
have offered it, yes. Forced it, no.

As for the sister, she is welcome to come and live with us also, but not
right now. Right now she's a little girl and she needs her mommy. She
**loves** shopping for shoes, clothes, getting her nails done, all the
girlie things her mom likes doing. But we can certainly envision a time,
when she gets older, where she starts feeling stifled, because her mother is
taking away too much of her independence. We see changes in her every year,
things that tell us she's starting to turn into her mother and be afraid of
everything. Ever since 9/11, mom has insisted that the daughter is
*terrified of flying.* Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact
she's flying out here by herself for Christmas. It's her *mother* that's
terrified of flying. Afraid of skiing. Afraid to go swimming in the Gulf.
Afraid--and I'm not making this up!!--to drive from Denver to Salt Lake City
over Interstate 70! So she'll deprive her children of all the things *she*
is irrationally afraid of. **THAT** is the biggest reason her son lives
with us now, and the reason I think her daughter will eventually decide
she's had enough.

In article , Barbara Bomberger
says...

On 17 Nov 2003 13:26:24 -0800, Banty wrote:


although in all honesty, I cannot imagine giving up skiing totally and
living in colorado. What would be the point? However, there are
frugal ways to ski, been there done that.

Believe it or not, I lived 8 years in Colorado without learning to ski, and
didnt' learn until I moved to upstate NY :-)

Lots of people in Colorado dont' ski. Natives may or may not be into the
playtimes everyone else might associate with where they're living.

By 'frugal' - do you mean just less hideously expensive (which, sure there are,
depending on what the family is already doing), or truly frugal? Truly frugal
would be the local ice pond with borrowed skates ;-)

Actually, my definition of frugal means cutting money in places that
dont havea priority in order to spend in places that are. MOst folks
living paycheck to paycheck don't make those hard decisions. They
also dont bother to make emergency funds..........

However, yes, we bough used skis, skid on the family plan, yadda yadda
and it was quite cheap, not hideously expnsive. It s not hideously
expensive in Germany, if one knows how to go about it.

But thats beside the original point.

My only problem is that th OP might make the kid feel like its all his
fault that the family is giving up skiing.

Yes, that appears likely.

Banty

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:30:48 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
wrote:

My only problem is that th OP might make the kid feel like its all his
fault that the family is giving up skiing.

Yep. That's what it sounds like.

Now frankly if I was really living *paycheck to paycheck* to pay
for food, clothing and shelter, then I would say giving up most
of the paid entertainment would be something I would do. BTDT
btw as a kid. My folks went out *very* infrequently to things they
had to pay for. OTOH, there were plenty of things to do free
from our park districts.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:50:03 -0700, "ColoradoSkiBum"
wrote:

You really missed the whole point there, didn't you? You're purporting that
we should *take away* the one thing that he really loves, the only thing
he's good at. For his own good. That's horse****.

The only thing he is good at?

You don't see your stepson as good at other things?
Perhaps you could switch to ice skating which is a lot
less expensive once you get the skates - it can be free
on park district facilities here and I bet it might be free
there too.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:54:29 -0700, "ColoradoSkiBum"
wrote:

Oh. My. God. I can't believe I'm reading this. I drink **maybe** a 12-pack
of beer a *month.* How much therapy is that going to buy? What, you want
to see my entire grocery budget for the whole month, so you can tell me I
buy too much spaghetti sauce and the Prego sauce is 5 cents cheaper? Give
me a ****ing break!

Like smoking, it adds up.

Why not add up the actual price and see how much you would save.
It seems to me that as Banty said you are not listing all your
expenses and you have never *really* lived paycheck to paycheck
for the *essentials*

I don't object to your form of *entertainment* on moral grounds, but
I do object to the fact that you are so unready to give up *anything*
when your priority needs to be your stepson.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits