Stay-at-Home Dad Blues

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(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:
snip
*accidents, incidents or misbehavior on the part of other children. I
*am revolted by the idea that in order to deal with something like a
*kid taking a toy, a short person has to believe that the other child
*will suffer punishment in order to be comforted.

I don't think my son has to believe the other child will be punished in
order to be comforted. I do think that his knowing bad behavior has
negative consequences to others as well as himself is important.

Gosh, I really don't think I've communicated effectively here.

I'd agree that you aren't communicating effectively, whether with us
or with your ds I don't know. I still (and when I said 'we' I meant
me and also Marie) do NOT think that telling your son that other
people's bad behavior will be punished is a good idea. I think it
may make him more fearful rather than more comforted. If someone will
be punished for something relatively minor like the examples you've
given, then what will be the consequence for HIM if he happens to
screw up and do something really 'bad'?

So not only is it NOT important for him to know that others suffer
consequences even while he does I think it is counterproductive for
him. People don't suffer consequences uniformly.

Besides, what are you going to do when everyone else does something
and he wants to know why he can't do it too?

Consequences for him in your family should be kept IN your family and
no parallels drawn to any other child or any other family.

grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*- just in a tone of voice that could be overheard. We are unhappy
*with the idea that you don't care whether the other mother can hear
*you or not. At best it is insensitive and at worst rude.

"we" who?

Me and the other mother who are disagreeing with you.

Anyway.

I (obviously) disagree. I mean, if I were saying "that other little boy's
mommy is an inattentive loser who should have been paying more attention
and had better damn well kick her kid's ass because he dared to upset my
precious," and I didn't care if I were overheard, then yeah, that would
definitely be rude. But if I say that I think the other mom is going to be
upset because her kid behaved badly, and I don't care if I'm overheard,
well - I don't think that is more rude than saying I think my friend Sam
is going to be hungry because he forgot his breakfast. I mean, I just
don't think it's a rude thing to say.

Obviously it depends a lot on the tone of voice and general demeanor.
But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
it is your kid behaving badly for instance, it won't be her kid that
she's upset with and she certainly may be upset and angry with you for
saying that. You may not think at this point that it will ever BE
your kid, but that isn't necessarily so.

Saying that someone will be hungry because he forgot his breakfast is
a whole different arena. To be equivalent, it would have to be
something like "Sam is going to be upset with his mom for not giving
him his breakfast this morning."


grandma Rosalie

P. Tierney wrote:
"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In ,
Nevermind wrote:

(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were
out in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all
hanging out too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with
training wheels in the street and when she passed the driveway my
neighbor would politely tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say
she didn't have to, she was allowed to be in the (dangerous) street.
Then after a while her mom came over and reamed my neighbor for
trying to tell her daughter what to do.

Dangerous in what way?



Do you think it safe for a child who still uses training wheels to share the
road with cars? It suggests lack of experience as well as lack of expertise,
to me.

In my experience most 7 year olds don't have the cognitive ability to judge
traffic well enough to cross the road safely so I'd find an unsupervised
child of that age riding his bike on the road to be worthy of my concern,
training wheels or not. Children have been known to lie about whether or not
they have permission to do something that looks a bit questionable to an
onlooker.

I ask because my child has been told not to do certain "dangerous"
things that I've told her were okay, so I was just wondering.

Perhaps the neighbour should have followed the girl home to check because it
does sound like the mother was watching out for her daughter. "Reaming"
someone out for showing concern for your child's safety seems bizarre to me.
A simple "thank you for your concern but she's fine", should be sufficient.

Tai

"Tai" wrote in message
...
P. Tierney wrote:
"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In ,
Nevermind wrote:

(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were
out in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all
hanging out too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with
training wheels in the street and when she passed the driveway my
neighbor would politely tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say
she didn't have to, she was allowed to be in the (dangerous) street.
Then after a while her mom came over and reamed my neighbor for
trying to tell her daughter what to do.

Dangerous in what way?

Do you think it safe for a child who still uses training wheels to share
the
road with cars?

The poster didn't specifically say that the child was "sharing the road
with cars". That is why I asked.

In my experience most 7 year olds don't have the cognitive ability to
judge
traffic well enough to cross the road safely

But even you say "most". Not all. Age isn't the only thing to be
used with regards to assessing the situation.

so I'd find an unsupervised
child of that age riding his bike on the road to be worthy of my concern,
training wheels or not. Children have been known to lie about whether or
not
they have permission to do something that looks a bit questionable to an
onlooker.

True, though not in this case, it seems.

I ask because my child has been told not to do certain "dangerous"
things that I've told her were okay, so I was just wondering.

Perhaps the neighbour should have followed the girl home to check because
it
does sound like the mother was watching out for her daughter. "Reaming"
someone out for showing concern for your child's safety seems bizarre to
me.

Sometimes, a "showing concern for your child's safety" comes across
as "making negative conclusions about the decisions of the parent".
You put it in the best possible light, and you might be correct, but I'm
trying to see how the other side might look at the matter.

A simple "thank you for your concern but she's fine", should be
sufficient.

Probably so.



P.
Tierney

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
*you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
*isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
*is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks

I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
then.

*it is your kid behaving badly for instance, it won't be her kid that
*she's upset with and she certainly may be upset and angry with you for
*saying that. You may not think at this point that it will ever BE
*your kid, but that isn't necessarily so.

Huh? If my kid did something wrong, I wouldn't be telling him the mom of
the kid he did it too would be upset with the other kid! The whole premise
of this discussion is that someone ELSE has behaved badly. I've already
said that ALL kids behave badly at some point. I'm not talking about the
situations in which the problem child is my own!


--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
*you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
*isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
*is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks

I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
then.

It's not that she would be unreasonable. She would just not agree
with you that she should be upset for whatever reason. You do not get
to decree what is reasonable.

*it is your kid behaving badly for instance, it won't be her kid that
*she's upset with and she certainly may be upset and angry with you for
*saying that. You may not think at this point that it will ever BE
*your kid, but that isn't necessarily so.

Huh? If my kid did something wrong, I wouldn't be telling him the mom of
the kid he did it too would be upset with the other kid! The whole premise
of this discussion is that someone ELSE has behaved badly. I've already
said that ALL kids behave badly at some point. I'm not talking about the
situations in which the problem child is my own!

And my point is - Neither you nor the other mother may know which kid
was in the wrong.

I have been in that situation both as the kid (from both sides - as
the kid who was not to blame who was held accountable and as the kid
who did the wrong thing and someone else took the fall) and as the mom
and as the teacher - where the person that was blamed for the problem
was not the one that was actually at fault.

And so if your kid precipitated the problem, you might not know it.
And/or if your kid reacted to the other kid that 'started it' and the
other mother saw your kid's reaction and not that her kid was the
instigator, she might THINK that your kid started it.

You are relying on your being able to always be correct in your
judgement of what happened. That won't always be so - you may be
wrong sometimes.

Given that almost all children misbehave at some point the correllary
is that parents are not perfect. As a not-perfect parent I would
refrain from expecting that I would always know the whole truth of any
situation and would not attribute motives and reactions to another
person based on my own particular world view.

grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In AET0b.211339$YN5.145510@sccrnsc01,
P. Tierney wrote:

*
*"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
* In ,
* Nevermind wrote:
*
* (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
*
* Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were out
* in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all hanging out
* too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with training wheels in
* the street and when she passed the driveway my neighbor would politely
* tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say she didn't have to, she was
* allowed to be in the (dangerous) street. Then after a while her mom came
* over and reamed my neighbor for trying to tell her daughter what to do.
*
* Dangerous in what way?
*
* I ask because my child has been told not to do certain "dangerous"
*things that I've told her were okay, so I was just wondering.

Dangerous in the way that the location in question is on the far side of a
blind curve which people heading toward the end of the road often take at
about 45-50 mph, assuming there isn't anyone blocking their way. It's a
problem.

[OT I wrote: This is a Hobson's choice, but I find that Hobson's
choice is NO choice, and what I mean is that there is no good choice.
What do you call that?]

I have often found that when I warned people against something that I
thought was dangerous, I was assured that I was crazy and that they
had been doing it that way for years with no problem. (Usually
without them actually SAYING I was crazy, but I could tell that's what
they thought.) Then when something DOES happen, they blame me as if
my pointing out the problem caused it to happen.

OTOH if you don't do anything, and the child does get killed or
injured it would surely be something that would be difficult to live
with, both by the motorist involved and by you.

Actually, it usually is against the law to ride on the sidewalk
although that doesn't make it less dangerous to ride in that street.

About the only options open a
a) try to persuade the mom that it is indeed dangerous (perhaps by
getting emotional and crying).
b) try to make the street less dangerous for everyone by various means
- I can think of about 5 ways. You probably ought to do this anyway.
c) find a safer place for her to ride that would be acceptable to her
and her mom

grandma Rosalie

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*x-no-archive:yes
* (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
*
*In ,
*Rosalie B. wrote:
*
**But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
**you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
**isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
**is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
*
*I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
*then.
*
*It's not that she would be unreasonable. She would just not agree
*with you that she should be upset for whatever reason. You do not get
*to decree what is reasonable.

What reasonable parent would not be upset if his or her kid were bullying
or otherwise behaving inappropriately to someone? THAT is the scenario we
are discussing, right? If not, we are totally not even on the same page.

*And my point is - Neither you nor the other mother may know which kid
*was in the wrong.

That's not true, in the hypothetical situation we're discussing.

*You are relying on your being able to always be correct in your
*judgement of what happened. That won't always be so - you may be
*wrong sometimes.

It's not open to speculation in some cirucmstances - if you are there and
watching what is going on - and that's the type of situation we're
discussing here.

*is that parents are not perfect. As a not-perfect parent I would
*refrain from expecting that I would always know the whole truth of any
*situation and would not attribute motives and reactions to another

Certainly, I wouldn't "always" know either. But you know, if you are
standing there watching your kid play with a toy, all by himself, at a
train table where there are no other kids within a three foot radius, and
you see another kid come over from across the room, yell "mine," grab the
toy, and push your kid to the ground, well, it's pretty obvious who is in
the wrong. That is the type of situation I'm talking about.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*x-no-archive:yes
* (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
*
*In ,
*Rosalie B. wrote:
*
**But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
**you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
**isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
**is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
*
*I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
*then.
*
*It's not that she would be unreasonable. She would just not agree
*with you that she should be upset for whatever reason. You do not get
*to decree what is reasonable.

What reasonable parent would not be upset if his or her kid were bullying
or otherwise behaving inappropriately to someone? THAT is the scenario we
are discussing, right? If not, we are totally not even on the same page.

No that's not right. You may have been backed down to discussing a
specific incident. But even your specific incident may have
antecedents that you have failed to observe.

In any case, *I* am not discussing a specific incident. I am
discussing the whole area of interacting or not interacting with
another parent by telling your child that the other mom will be upset
with her child.

a) You don't know that the other parent is reasonable and b) you may
not know that the other child is behaving inappropriately in a way
that would make another parent be upset. And c) I don't think telling
your son that another child will get into trouble is a good idea and I
don't think it an appropriate way to comfort a child.

*And my point is - Neither you nor the other mother may know which kid
*was in the wrong.

That's not true, in the hypothetical situation we're discussing.

How can you say it is not true in a hypothetical situation? In my
hypothesis it is true.

*You are relying on your being able to always be correct in your
*judgement of what happened. That won't always be so - you may be
*wrong sometimes.

It's not open to speculation in some cirucmstances - if you are there and
watching what is going on - and that's the type of situation we're
discussing here.

No we are not. We are discussing situations where you may not have
been watching what is going on too. One of the examples you gave the
children were in another room.

*is that parents are not perfect. As a not-perfect parent I would
*refrain from expecting that I would always know the whole truth of any
*situation and would not attribute motives and reactions to another

Certainly, I wouldn't "always" know either. But you know, if you are
standing there watching your kid play with a toy, all by himself, at a
train table where there are no other kids within a three foot radius, and
you see another kid come over from across the room, yell "mine," grab the
toy, and push your kid to the ground, well, it's pretty obvious who is in
the wrong. That is the type of situation I'm talking about.

OK - you may be certain in that particular instance that the other kid
is wrong. But you can't extrapolate from that very restricted and
unusual instance to say that it is appropriate or courteous for you to
speak for another mother that she will be upset.

Possibly, your son took the toy from the place where the other kid
was. Or maybe it is the toddler syndrome - that old joke - if I had
it once it's mine, if I see it and want it it's mine etc.

And really and truly the bottom line is - I don't like comforting one
kid by telling him that another kid will get in trouble. I just think
it (to use a phrase I hate) sends the wrong message.



grandma Rosalie

In article ,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

In ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

*- just in a tone of voice that could be overheard. We are unhappy
*with the idea that you don't care whether the other mother can hear
*you or not. At best it is insensitive and at worst rude.

"we" who?

Anyway.

I (obviously) disagree. I mean, if I were saying "that other little boy's
mommy is an inattentive loser who should have been paying more attention
and had better damn well kick her kid's ass because he dared to upset my
precious," and I didn't care if I were overheard, then yeah, that would
definitely be rude. But if I say that I think the other mom is going to be
upset because her kid behaved badly, and I don't care if I'm overheard,
well - I don't think that is more rude than saying I think my friend Sam
is going to be hungry because he forgot his breakfast. I mean, I just
don't think it's a rude thing to say.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

Well, it would depend. If I were Sam, and were with you and your son,
I'd find it pretty inappropriate for you to tell your son, within my
hearing, that I was going to be hungry later; I'd find it inappropriate
for you to say ANYTHING about me to your son within my hearing, as
though I weren't there -- even if I was sitting at the next table, and
not necessarily a direct part of your conversation, but clearly within
hearing range.

If your son asked you about the state of my hunger, I'd expect you to
suggest he ask me himself, instead of presuming to answer for me.

If I were Sam, and we'd been together and then parted, what you say
about me is pretty irrelevant -- I'm not likely to hear it, and I would
have to assume there was some reason for you feeling compelled to
comment on the state of my diet to your son.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care