| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...

snip

Kane
Did you ever see "Commander McBrag" cartoons with Underdog?
An old guy puffing on his pipe telling tall tales,
bragging about how he served in the Boer War..
And his exaggerations always become outrageous.
Kane says he invented flash cards for flight
crews to use for identifying aircraft.

What's that URL, Greg?

(And I copyrighted the letter K, so he owes me royalties.)

As for the paranoia, I think he is just afraid
somebody will do onto him what he does to them.

As I've said before, Kane has helped in every case I've worked on since I
met him.

Being devious himself, he doesn't trust anybody.

Maybe working IN the system Kane doesn't want anyone there to know what he
does?

Might cost him his job.

You do remember what a "job" is, don't you, Greg?

Dan

"Greg Hanson" wrote
om...
Kane
Did you ever see "Commander McBrag" cartoons with Underdog?
An old guy puffing on his pipe telling tall tales,
bragging about how he served in the Boer War..
And his exaggerations always become outrageous.
Kane says he invented flash cards for flight
crews to use for identifying aircraft.

Dan wrote
What's that URL, Greg?

HERE IT IS! Did you MISS this the first time, Dan?

Kane wrote
. com...
My service was in military intelligence. I taught
pilots, in TAC, (Tactical Air Command) enemy
aircraft identification and created the first
handheld flashcards for pilot inflight use. I hear
they were still around twenty years later, no
longer in my primative 3 by 5 color coded cards
with a stationary screw post through the corner
for ease of browsing one handed format though.

Maybe working IN the system Kane doesn't
want anyone there to know what he does?
Might cost him his job.

Yeah, Yeah. I've heard the "secret agent"
excuse before. Maybe he's the tooth fairy.

Kane has changed his story about his connection
from denial, to a relative who is a caseworker,
to serving on a supervisory board over CPS.

Whatever suits his arguing and insults at the time.

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
"Greg Hanson" wrote
om...
Kane
Did you ever see "Commander McBrag" cartoons with Underdog?
An old guy puffing on his pipe telling tall tales,
bragging about how he served in the Boer War..
And his exaggerations always become outrageous.
Kane says he invented flash cards for flight
crews to use for identifying aircraft.

Dan wrote
What's that URL, Greg?

HERE IT IS! Did you MISS this the first time, Dan?

Did you miss this the first time around, Greg?

As I've said before, Kane has helped in every case I've worked on since I
met him.

Couldn't deal with it so you snipped it?

Dan

On 9 Nov 2003 17:00:34 -0800, (Greg Hanson) wrote:

"Greg Hanson" wrote
om...
Kane
Did you ever see "Commander McBrag" cartoons with Underdog?
An old guy puffing on his pipe telling tall tales,
bragging about how he served in the Boer War..
And his exaggerations always become outrageous.
Kane says he invented flash cards for flight
crews to use for identifying aircraft.

Dan wrote
What's that URL, Greg?

HERE IT IS! Did you MISS this the first time, Dan?

Kane wrote
.com...
My service was in military intelligence. I taught
pilots, in TAC, (Tactical Air Command) enemy
aircraft identification and created the first
handheld flashcards for pilot inflight use.

Unless someone can come up with an earlier use of those cards I was
the one that created them. I got the idea, since I was studying art at
the time, from paint chip samples fastened at the corner. I used to do
really big art...whole sides of buildings, or complete walls inside,
and used high quality housepaint.

There's just no end to the adventures I've had, Greegor, and all of
them working, working, working and being paid. Unlike you.

I hear
they were still around twenty years later, no
longer in my primative 3 by 5 color coded cards
with a stationary screw post through the corner
for ease of browsing one handed format though.

Maybe working IN the system Kane doesn't
want anyone there to know what he does?
Might cost him his job.

Yeah, Yeah. I've heard the "secret agent"
excuse before. Maybe he's the tooth fairy.

While Dan is close to the truth it's just a tad off. I don't work for
the state. I've never been a caseworker. Wouldn't be. Can't stand the
idea, though I do admire those that do it and do it well, just as in
any other profession.

Kane has changed his story about his connection
from denial,

No, I've not done that. I've nothing to "deny." I don't work for the
state.

to a relative who is a caseworker,

I'm still trying to resolve where that came from. I've had relatives
that were foster parents (my sister, for over 150 kids) and relatives
that worked for the Feds in the AG's office. I've had relatives that
were state police. I had relatives that were nurses and doctors, and
dry goods store owners (now that was waaaaaay back of course).

But I can't recall having or saying I had a relative that was a
caseworker. I know someone else said I said that, but not me. Can you
find that for me Greegor?

It might be yet another phony post under my name.

to serving on a supervisory board over CPS.

Yes. A county commission that was expressly created to oversee human
services, including child welfare. I served about 3 or 4 years (long
time ago...and who knows, maybe my memory is slipping) and the final
year or two as chair.

That gave me an awful lot of exposure to both county child welfare
issues, and it was during that time the state went to a central system
of child welfare, so I also got a lot of knowledge, and know
historical information, about how counties and states ran their child
welfare business.

I explained at some length that I got involved from the beginning by
defending and supporting a single mother who came under investigation
of the county child welfare people. I was offered the position on the
commission as a result. They were trying to preempt me because I was
already pretty well known as a businessman in the community.

I had the ear of the editor of the only local paper. Little things
like that.

In other words, Greegor the Whore, I was a responsible citizen. They
do tend to get tapped for things like commission seats.

Whatever suits his arguing and insults at the time.

Yes. Very true. It has to do with credibility.

Your problem is that you are such a sit on your ass do nothing
freeloader that you can't believe that someone would have as active
and exciting a life as I have had.

So you make up things. You assume I sit around all day doing nothing.
You speculate on who and what I am because you can't stand it that I
am really who and what I say I am and was.

You should be so lucky to have had as interesting a life as I, and it
still goes on. I don't know what adventure will come next, but I'm
thinking seriously of windsurfing. I've surfed in Hawaii, board and
body, but never windsurfed.

Watched some paragliders yesterday. Now there is temptation.

My wife forbids me to snowboard with her daughters and their friends,
though I used to ski, but she actually is interested in the
paragliding herself it seems. R R R R.

She'll let me rebuild our decks and porches climbing all over the
place using powertools etc, but not snowboarding...now how fair is
that I ask yah...?

r r r

Don't you wish you were me?

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message
...
Ray Drouillard wrote:


Kids who are raised without proper discipline end up being rotten
adults. One must only look around to see examples.

Yes, children both need and deserve proper discipline. What they
do
not
need is physical assault in the name of discipline.

Of course, the real answer can be found in the "user's manual"
that
our
maker gave to us:

Pro 13:24 One who spares the rod hates his son, But one who loves
him is
careful to discipline him.

Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child: The rod of
discipline drives it far from him.

And Deuteronomy recommends stoning children to death for rebellious
behavior. Do you recommend killing children who do not obey, or do
you
prefer selective Biblical interpretation and application? By the
way,
nothing in the NT suggests that Jesus would recommend hitting and
hurting a
little child with rods or anything else.


Pro 23:13 Don't withhold correction from a child. If you punish
him
with
the rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 Punish him with the rod, And save his soul from Sheol.

And Deuteronomy recommends killing rebellious children. Since you
literally apply Proverbs, I'm sure you advocate killing as a form
of
discipline.

Pro 29:15 The rod of correction gives wisdom, But a child left
tto
himself causes shame to his mother.

And Deuteronomy recommends killing children. I must assume that if
you use
Proverbs to justify hitting children with rods, you also recommend
stoning
those children to death who remain rebellious.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is
old he
will not depart from it.

And one can discipline and one can train without hitting and
hurting a
child. And one can certainly parent without stoning children to
death.
Read the New Testament, Ray. And read the Old Testament. If you
advocate
everything in the Old Testament, you advocate capital punishment
for
rebellious children, for adulterers, for women who are not virgins
when
they marry. Jesus' disciples tried this thinking when they desired
to
stone the woman at the well. Jesus intervened. Funny about that,
isn't
it.

LaVonne


Again, the term "justify" is used.

Yes. Logical to use it.

Do you have to justify eating?

No, unless the eating has become gluttony.

Do you have to justify sleeping?

No, unless the sleeping has become narcolepsy or due to a mental
disorder like clinical depression.

You
justify bad things, not good things.

I justify, quite eloquently I think, my belief in not spanking. I
consider that a good thing.

Your attempt to label all things that YOU call good and deny others
the right to justify what THEY call good, suggests that you wish to be
the arbiter of what are good things and bad things.

The point of the debate is to determine that, not arrogantly declare
it an accomplished fact....one of the more ugly characteristics of the
Theosophists.


Discipline is a good thing.

Absolutely. I am completely in agreement.

Do you know the aetiology of that word? What the latin, "discere" or
"discere" means?

Here's an example of use in latin:

ediscendis -- ablative plural feminine of gerund(ive) of e¯disco¯,
e¯discere, e¯didici, - learn, memorize -- in learning

I see nothing about punishment to facilitate learning.

And yet another:

didicit -- verb; 3rd person singular perfect of disco¯, discere,
didici¯, - learn -- knew

And another:

discenda -- verbal adjective; ablative singular feminine of disco¯,
discere, didici¯, - learn -- learning

Still no pain mentioned.

Yes, children do need discipline and I would be the first to defend
and support your obligation to give learning through discipline.

And yes, it is possible to use punishment to teach, but why would one
of another non punitive method had more lasting results with less
chance of side effects?

There is ample "punishment" in the world without the teacher using it
too.

Each day we let the parental protective boundaries out just a tad more
so the child can explore the consequencs of their behavior. We limit
it for their safety. Why would we want to ad pain to it when the child
is already experiencing pain from his environment?

I've asked many mothers (as they are more often the one that does it)
what happened the first time they slapped or spanked their child? It's
been pretty standard for them to answer that the baby expressed
surprised disbelief, in reverse order of course.

First they are stunned at the source of the pain, then they do not
believe it...they ignore the mother. She has to hit again, and the
cycle starts.

The child accepts, in only a few swats, the source, and that source is
the beloved mother, who has up to that point given the baby everything
he or she needs to survive, to feel good, to be charged up with the
energy to explore. That is a clear messgae to the baby.

She deserves, totally, what the mother delivers in the way of
parenting.

And if it's pain, she deserves pain. And her exploritory behavior
deserves pain. Forever she will be influenced as she explores the
world later with that first discovery of what she deserved, and her
life will be intertwined with pain.

As any adult. Is life painful?

When you find one that says, emphatically, "no!" you very likely only
found an unspanked person but one that has not been punished by their
parents. They learned from the world what was painfully dangerous, and
they learned from their parents what was expected of them in the way
of social and personal responsibility.

Discovering one is enough to make anyone that never encountered
someone like that before break down and cry.

I met my first one on a train. A young women that seemed uncommonly
quiet, but gently assertive, and above all very empathetic.

I was so curious I moved over by her in the club car and began to
probe into her past. I'd never met and unspanked person before,
outside of my own child, my first born at that time, and only months
old.

The young lady smiled at my questions and told where she thought I was
going, and answered for me. "No, I wasn't spanked or punished as a
child. All I recall are my parents coming to my aid when I did
something that they didn't want me too and teaching me."

She knew that others were spanked and punished and humiliated, but it
just didn't compute for her. I do hope she married and had some
children.

She certainly didn't seem to be a criminal or menace to society.

Also, we see the old trick of picking some part of the Law

What Law are you referring to here?

out and using
that to discredit the Old Testament.

No, in fact that is a lie. She not only didn't pick out some "part,"
she mentioned yours and others. And she did not even attempt to
discredit the Old Testament, just to question it's appropriateness in
modern times, and more especially with the advent of the NT.

Are you jewish?

The answer to that can be quite complex, but I'll make it simple and
leave out a whole lot of details.

You will, if I am not mistaken, go to quoting your own carefully
picked biblical citations, skirting any that might be construed by
intelligent people as refuting your claims.


Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under
the
law.

So being a believer in the Spirit gives you license to use punishment
on little children. Hmmm. Interesting. And you believe that the Old
Testament holds dominion over the NT?

There is a whole lot more to it, of course. The Law was for the
Jews,
not the Gentiles.

You are a jew?

Sacrifice no longer needs to be practiced because
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice.

Interesting. I consider children who are punished to teach them as a
sacrifice, by Christians, to the Old Testament, as surely as Solomon
would have had the child cleaved in two had the real mother not
sacrificed.

I am not happy with OT Christians. Christ is not in it.

In the NT, God mad all food clean.
The list goes on.

Yes. But by avoiding the fact she brought up, that Jesus never
sanctioned the use of pain to parent you have shown what...that you
are devious?

So, that bit about stoning defiant children doesn't hold water.

I see. So you are going to only admit to those parts of the OT being
valid that fit your agenda. Is that because you are now speaking
directly with god and she has told you what she meant to be retained
and what discarded?

Even if
it was still in effect, it couldn't be practiced because there are no
city gates

Sure there are. On that freeway coming in one end of the city and
going out the other.

and no group of city officials hanging out there.

Well, you might have to go to city hall, but that's no biggy.

You wish to be a literalist when it suits our purpose, but an
apologist when the other person's argument defeats you. I see.

Trying to use that argument is simply silly.

Trying to wriggle out from under the weight of that argument by
denying parts of the OT and cleaving to others is a great deal worse
than being simply silly. It's a lie. It is weaseling of the worst
sort. How can you claim you are a Christian? Well without blushing.

Now, moving on to the second part of my project at disassembling the
above argument:

Your "project"...oh, that's really goood.

Proverbs is not a book of law, but a book of wise counsel.

From a despot and brute? Okay, if you say so.

We are free
to disregard it -- at our own risk, of course.

We are free to disregard the OT and NT, and the OT if we are a
Christian.

And of course there is a risk. All life is a risk. I have disregarded
the OT for the better part of 40 years, and I've come to no harm, my
children and the children I've worked with turned out wonderfully with
few acceptions, and those were the ones that were pain and humiliation
parented beyond my small capacity to recover and heal them from.

God's wisdom does not
pass away.

There is no god. Nor gods. There are no spirits in the sky or ground.
There is no devil or heaven or hell. It's all a set of fairy tales
generated by folks trying very hard to understand and explain (a
function of the human brain...it's called rationalizing) the poorly
understood physical universe.

The true mystery of our existence and that of the universe is much
larger than books of fairytale sayings.

He may change the rules as the situation merits, but the
wise advice in Proverbs still stands.

There is no bearded old man called Yehwah or Allah or any other name.
That image is the symbol of our once allpowerful father that protected
us and awed us with his great booming voice, his large powerful hands,
his quickness and his knowing what we did not.

As he, our real father aged we replace him with the image of him we
had as tiny babies. We wish to be cared for as we were then, and we
built and still build, legends and mysteries around that hungered for
image.

In materlinial societies is done with a goddess mother image and it is
just as much a fairy tale to comfort us.

As you die you will see the truth. Your brain will work overtime to
bring that image to you and bits and pieces of the great fairy tale of
the major religions and philosophies, but you will know it's all false
at that moment of death, and that you are going to cease to exist,
totally.

You get to die mad. I'll die quite at peace with endless nothingness.


Ray Drouillard


You can't defend spanking by calling on the authority of nonexistant
beings, Ray. They have no proof to give you, just your childish faith
and the need for it to shelter you from the reality that you are
entirely on your own in the universe, completely in charge of what you
do and what happens to you.

If you wish to call on God and His Word, Ray, I'll have to ask you to
introduce me, personally. Let me know if it's okay to shake hands, or
maybe hug.

I don't accept the authority of people that I cannot meet. And I can
meet anyone alive if I have the time and money to travel.

No "god" is guiding you or protecting you, Ray.

You are, like us all, just potentially a flat possum, roadkill, on the
universal highway of life. And that is far more awe inspiring to me
than some old outmoded fairytail. The NOT knowing is the same
delicious thrill children feel when their father makes loud growling
noises and chases them about playfully.

This universe is going to grab me up one day, and I'll get to see if
nonthingness is true, or if there is something after death. But I'm
pretty convinced that it isn't going to be some old bearded ancient
sitting on a cloud borne throne weighing my "sins" or my belief in his
"son."

If I have to do that then I'm just as happy giving up eternal life. I
wouldn't want to spend it with a lot of Christians I know.

Kane

Reading this forum is one of the most informative, entertaining and
frustrating events of my week!

My 2 cents worth on the subject of biblical justification for CP:

The vast consensus of theologians from the subset of theologians that
believe the Christian scriptures to be rational and non contradictory
(lets call them orthodox), agree that the Christian scriptures condone
the use of CP in the exercise of the particular duties and authority
of a parent and contingently assert its effectiveness in modifying the
behaviour of children.

It seems there is some misunderstanding regarding the scriptural
context of Israelite law. Deuteronomy is Israelite law; only covenant
Jews need attempt compliance. Proverbs however is a book of general
wisdom, yet as all Christian Scripture it is "God Breathed" and
profitable for reproof and instruction in righteousness. So too is
Deuteronomy. Its harsh laws were meant to convict the Jews of their
inability to attain perfection and compel them to anticipate and
follow a messiah who would ultimately pay the penalty for their
imperfections. (The meta-lesson we Christians are instructed to teach
our children.)

So the Bible demands CP from the wise parent. That is the consensus of
orthodox theological debate. For a period of time a child's will is
subject to that of its parents. However this is simply the tip of the
Christian parental iceberg. Christian parents must furnish an array of
proscribed nurture if scripture is taken as a whole. In contrast to
the captive will, we fathers are instructed to subjugate our desires
for the benefit of our families. To lay down our lives as it were. In
this I see balance.

I obviously feel I can write authoritively about these interpretations
and about the orthodox Church's consensus regarding their scriptural
contexts but I would be keen to discuss any divergent views or to
provide interested parties with the presuppositions and historical
details of orthodox theological reasoning.

I don't really want to debate in anything other than a scriptural
context. As a Christian I believe the word of God gives us the only
objective truth we have.

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
Dennis H:
Greetings from flyover country!
Any news on whether the Governator (I like it!)
will do anything to clean up Child protection?
It seems like after all of the recent public
humiliations, politicians are more willing to
speak out and change CPS agencies.


Not sure about how the Governator will fare yet but he's certainly taken on
a huge task. It will be interesting to see how things develop. I didnt'
sign the recall petitions, but once the scene played out, I felt he was the
only possible electable choice. Guess only time will tell if it was a good
thing or a bad thing.

I do think the entire recall process as it exists needs some overhaul. They
make it far too easy to qualify for the ballot, as our 150 plus candidates,
many of whom were merely jokes proved, but I do think that it sends a
message that an incompetent politician can be recalled given enough outrage.


Kane
Did you ever see "Commander McBrag" cartoons with Underdog?
An old guy puffing on his pipe telling tall tales,
bragging about how he served in the Boer War..
And his exaggerations always become outrageous.
Kane says he invented flash cards for flight
crews to use for identifying aircraft.
(And I copyrighted the letter K, so he owes me royalties.)

As for the paranoia, I think he is just afraid
somebody will do onto him what he does to them.
Being devious himself, he doesn't trust anybody.

Greg in Iowa

I think it was just an attempt to gain some sort of high moral
ground......... again. Don't know what he thought it would accomplish as I
don't know of many people who would come out publicly and admit they are a
troll.. but I tire of the same accusations over and over again, and being
asked the same questions, only not to accept them because they do not
coincide with his concept of reality.


He's paranoid Greg. He's accused me of
being a troll who he apparently
bucked heads with a long time ago.

His arguments are lame and weak, so he
has to use some kind of smokescreen
to cover up.

Greg Hanson wrote
Kane: Why would ""Frank"" post your pet issues for weeks
under his name before forging your header?
Doesn't that undo the forgery?

"Dan Sullivan" wrote in message
t...

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...

snip

Kane
Did you ever see "Commander McBrag" cartoons with Underdog?
An old guy puffing on his pipe telling tall tales,
bragging about how he served in the Boer War..
And his exaggerations always become outrageous.
Kane says he invented flash cards for flight
crews to use for identifying aircraft.

What's that URL, Greg?

(And I copyrighted the letter K, so he owes me royalties.)

As for the paranoia, I think he is just afraid
somebody will do onto him what he does to them.

As I've said before, Kane has helped in every case I've worked on since I
met him.

Dan, no one has disputed that his methods do indeed work in many cases. In
fact, this may come as a surprise to him (or he will refuse to accept it)
that many parents who use physical discipline also use positive
reinforcement and love and that not all who may resort to spanking are
abusers.


Being devious himself, he doesn't trust anybody.

Maybe working IN the system Kane doesn't want anyone there to know what he
does?

Might cost him his job.



You do remember what a "job" is, don't you, Greg?

Dan

Can't understand why a person would be afraid of losing their job for
promoting non spanking and other alternative methods for teaching children.

Dennis H:
Not sure about how the Governator will fare yet
but he's certainly taken on a huge task.
It will be interesting to see how things develop.

Maybe he can just TERMINATE the caseworkers and
send all the kids home!

He might do a better job than most status quo politicians
Much of America is jealous of the successful recall.


but I tire of the same accusations over and over again,

Golly, I haven't seen any repetitious accusations. grin
( alt.support.child-protective-services ) grin

wrote in message
...
"Dennis Hancock" wrote:
but I tire of the same accusations over and over again,
and being asked the same questions, only not to accept them because they
do not coincide with his concept of reality.

Can't blame you there. You are human, Kane is an animal, a weak animal
caught in a trap he contrived. He has reason to be afraid, to
be ~paranoid. Everyone hates him. His Mother, Father, grand-parents, the
lady down the street, the people next door, his barber, sane children,
insane children, chickens, dogs, Libarians, Victor, Jay Leno, cats, dogs,
Dave, Oprah, Regis, Republicans, Libertarians, even the demo's, you name
it. Yes, we ALL hate him, he is paranoid for a good reason.
:-LYNX-:

No Kane isn't an animal, he is the product of abuse, but he simply cannot
comprehend that discipline and abuse are two different things altogether.
He never learned either.

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
Dennis H:
Not sure about how the Governator will fare yet
but he's certainly taken on a huge task.
It will be interesting to see how things develop.

Maybe he can just TERMINATE the caseworkers and
send all the kids home!

He might do a better job than most status quo politicians
Much of America is jealous of the successful recall.

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. They consider it a joke, and it truly
was with the ease one could qualify for the ballot, but it DID indeed send a
message to most of the political community that there just might be a limit
to what people will accept from their politicians.


but I tire of the same accusations over and over again,

Golly, I haven't seen any repetitious accusations. grin
( alt.support.child-protective-services ) grin

CPS is a joke in my book. While they serve a much needed purpose, seems
like in most cases it's just a feel good solution which often makes the
situation much worse for the kids who truly need some help.