Cultural differences..

Man, I'm really struggling with that right now when I read the driving
thread..

I'm in germany. I do not own a car. I do not even own a drivers license.
(Yeah, I know... I'm a rare thing, even here.) I do own a bike with a
trailor (chariot, totally the coolest thing I've bought in a long time).
I walk or ride my bike everywhere. If I need to go further than I want
to walk or ride my bike I take public transport and if public transport
can't get me there I ask my brother if he'll be able to take me there
(IKEA, as an example. I usually ask him at some point and he'll take me
withing the next month whenever it's most convenient for him).

I have lived completely without car or access to a car (with a driver)
for years while I was at university. I never felt like I was stranded
and unable to do my grocery shopping, or whatever. Sure, sometimes I
would think "Man, it would sure be cool to have a car and just up and go
somewhere right now." but it was never something I couldn't live without.
That said, I never lived really out in the country, well, I did, but I
was working at a butcher and the next grocery store was about a 30 min
bike ride away (up hill there, down hill back, thank heaven.) so I
wasn't going to starve or anything, but getting to the next city was
challenging, there was a bus that went down every two hours except
during peak times when it was going "every hour" (basically, one extra
bus). But when I lived there I did have access to a car (my boyfriend
and his brother), so it wasn't a huge issue.

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply
not get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to
work without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks
just like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually
there to do the walking around.

So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk there?

cu
nicole

NL wrote:
Man, I'm really struggling with that right now when I read the driving
thread..

I'm in germany. I do not own a car. I do not even own a drivers
license. (Yeah, I know... I'm a rare thing, even here.) I do own a
bike with a trailor (chariot, totally the coolest thing I've bought
in a long time). I walk or ride my bike everywhere. If I need to go
further than I want
to walk or ride my bike I take public transport and if public
transport can't get me there I ask my brother if he'll be able to
take me there (IKEA, as an example. I usually ask him at some point
and he'll take me withing the next month whenever it's most
convenient for him).
I have lived completely without car or access to a car (with a driver)
for years while I was at university. I never felt like I was stranded
and unable to do my grocery shopping, or whatever. Sure, sometimes I
would think "Man, it would sure be cool to have a car and just up and
go somewhere right now." but it was never something I couldn't live
without. That said, I never lived really out in the country, well, I
did, but I was working at a butcher and the next grocery store was about a
30 min
bike ride away (up hill there, down hill back, thank heaven.) so I
wasn't going to starve or anything, but getting to the next city was
challenging, there was a bus that went down every two hours except
during peak times when it was going "every hour" (basically, one extra
bus). But when I lived there I did have access to a car (my boyfriend
and his brother), so it wasn't a huge issue.

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply
not get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to
work without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well,
looks just like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not
actually there to do the walking around.



We live in rural Vermont. The grocery store where the groceries are not
obscenely priced is a 20 minute drive. We avoid spending in gas by having DH
do the shopping on his way home from work.

When I lived in Manchester NH, the buses were *heavily* subsidized since the
seniors would suffer if they went under. But the fact was, they had been
fantastic when I was a kid. People's desire to drive whereever they wanted
whenever they wanted decimated bus routes.


So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.


I find not wanting to drive due to the cost of gas is becoming an issue for
us. I would like DH to carpool with a collegue. Her schedule is different
and would not allow DH to go to the gym at lunch. Since we are rural,
museums are always a drive away... We are trying to work through issues liek
that right now.

Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk
there?


There is nothing to walk to within 20 minutes of us! We *could* take bikes
to the local store. But it had not really dawned on my that my 4yo is
capable of doing that trip on the trail-a-bike.

cu
nicole

In article , NL says...

Man, I'm really struggling with that right now when I read the driving
thread..

I'm in germany. I do not own a car. I do not even own a drivers license.
(Yeah, I know... I'm a rare thing, even here.) I do own a bike with a
trailor (chariot, totally the coolest thing I've bought in a long time).
I walk or ride my bike everywhere. If I need to go further than I want
to walk or ride my bike I take public transport and if public transport
can't get me there I ask my brother if he'll be able to take me there
(IKEA, as an example. I usually ask him at some point and he'll take me
withing the next month whenever it's most convenient for him).

I have lived completely without car or access to a car (with a driver)
for years while I was at university. I never felt like I was stranded
and unable to do my grocery shopping, or whatever. Sure, sometimes I
would think "Man, it would sure be cool to have a car and just up and go
somewhere right now." but it was never something I couldn't live without.
That said, I never lived really out in the country, well, I did, but I
was working at a butcher and the next grocery store was about a 30 min
bike ride away (up hill there, down hill back, thank heaven.) so I
wasn't going to starve or anything, but getting to the next city was
challenging, there was a bus that went down every two hours except
during peak times when it was going "every hour" (basically, one extra
bus). But when I lived there I did have access to a car (my boyfriend
and his brother), so it wasn't a huge issue.

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply
not get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to
work without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks
just like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually
there to do the walking around.

Oh yes. We're much different from Europe. Our towns and suburbs are very
spaced, and houses are either far apart or in developments that are rather far
from shopping, etc. People commute up to 60 miles each way. Seriously. I
live only 13 miles from work, but I do need the car to even go do grocery
shopping.

I know in Europe there's much more of a demarcation between city and country,
town and country, and trains run from place to place and it's easy to get
around. But not here in the states, and when you *can* get around by train
(like the northeast corridor where I live), unless you have a city destination
you have to rent a car or something to get where you want to go.

When I lived in NYC I had a car, but I was in the Bronx in a residential area
and it was used to commute up to work 30 miles north. When I went to college in
the city, the car was mostly just parked as I didn't need it, I got around all
by subway and bus.




So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk there?

Grocery shopping is once a week pretty much. Even if I could walk 20 minutes to
get there, I woudln't be able to carry enough home not to have to do it day
after day.

Banty

It is both cultural and geographic, and to a certain extent time
related.

When we went to Europe for the first time in 1950, my mom and dad were
entranced with all the bicycles, especially in Holland. Holland was
a small flat country, and it was right after WWII, so not many people
had cars. Of course they rode bikes. We also did that journey by
train, and we got there by boat and not a plane.

I've got a letter from my grandfather's mother where she speaks about
his brother riding his bike to Washington D.C. from the Philadlephia
area. This would have been before 1900

But my mom (born in 1909) and my dad (born in 1905) both had driver's
licenses and had been driving from about 1923. My mom learned on a
Model T. My dad rode down from the mountains of Colorado to Colorado
Springs to go to college. At that time he's only been in a car once.
He learned to drive while he was there.

If the kids wanted to go down to the barn (about 20 minutes by bike)
and ride they would either go after school on the bus and I would pick
them up on the way home from work, or they would take a boat across.
When dd#2 wanted to ride before school, she had to leave before 6 am
in order to go, ride, cool out her horse, come back, shower and get to
school on time. Maryland restricted the hours a teen could drive a
car to after 6 am, so she got her motorcycle license which had no
restrictions, and rode that.

DD#1 would not let her son (b. 1980) drive until/unless he could get a
good student discount. He never met that standard, so he learned to
drive, but did not take his driver's license. He had a car briefly
after he left home but couldn't afford it. So when he wants to come
down here, he has to get a ride with someone, or his parents have to
come pick him up. My ds's son just turned 15 and he now has both his
motorcycle and his car learner's permit.

NL wrote:

Man, I'm really struggling with that right now when I read the driving
thread..

I'm in germany. I do not own a car. I do not even own a drivers license.
(Yeah, I know... I'm a rare thing, even here.) I do own a bike with a
trailor (chariot, totally the coolest thing I've bought in a long time).
I walk or ride my bike everywhere. If I need to go further than I want
to walk or ride my bike I take public transport and if public transport
can't get me there I ask my brother if he'll be able to take me there
(IKEA, as an example. I usually ask him at some point and he'll take me
withing the next month whenever it's most convenient for him).

I have lived completely without car or access to a car (with a driver)
for years while I was at university. I never felt like I was stranded
and unable to do my grocery shopping, or whatever. Sure, sometimes I
would think "Man, it would sure be cool to have a car and just up and go
somewhere right now." but it was never something I couldn't live without.
That said, I never lived really out in the country, well, I did, but I
was working at a butcher and the next grocery store was about a 30 min
bike ride away (up hill there, down hill back, thank heaven.) so I
wasn't going to starve or anything, but getting to the next city was
challenging, there was a bus that went down every two hours except
during peak times when it was going "every hour" (basically, one extra
bus). But when I lived there I did have access to a car (my boyfriend
and his brother), so it wasn't a huge issue.

When I was in college, women were not allowed to own a car, and so I
did not have one - my parents could not afford for me to have one
anyway. I did ride a bike all over campus. There was a car available
for the person who bought the groceries for our co-op dorm. DH went
to a military academy and was neither allowed to have a car or even
drive until he was a senior. DD#2 went to a military academy and she
wasn't allowed to have a car as a plebe, but later we gave her a truck
so she could pull a horse trailer to get to combined training events.
In no case did they have to go shopping for groceries.

When I was in elementary/secondary school, I walked, and others of my
friends took the trolley car. The trolley has been eliminated now, in
favor of the much less desireable bus. In some areas, city buses do
serve to transport children to school. My dd#3 walks her kids to
school. But most rural and suburgan communities the children come to
school on the school bus. DS lives in an area were some of the roads
aren't even paved, let alone have sidewalks.

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply
not get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to
work without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks
just like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually
there to do the walking around.

The last two places where we have lived, we were on (or just off)
rural highways - two lane roads with not much of a shoulder. Here it
is about a mile and a half up into town - up and down a very large
hill. This is the hill they use for the Soap Box Derby trials to give
you an idea. The sewage treatment plant is down at the bottom of the
hill.

In one place the only public transportation was the school bus. Here
we have a public van which drives around to various places (town,
hospital etc), but I'd have to walk a mile to get to a bus stop, and
I'm not capable of doing that anymore. The last taxi company went out
of business a couple of years ago, so even that is no longer an
option. There are van pools into the city, but the railroad tracks
have been removed from everywhere in my county - that option no longer
exisits. We have to rent a car to drive 90 miles to or from the
nearest airport.

So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk there?

Before I retired, I had a job that required that I have a car because
I did inspections of various workplaces. In one particularly bad
month, I averaged 100 miles per day, and that was just mileage I could
put on my expense account and did NOT include driving in to the office
or going to lunch or anything like that. I had to deduct my normal
commute from my expense sheet mileage, and my normal commute to the
office was 96 miles. I also worked from home at least one day each
week, so did no driving on those days. I did inspections all over the
state. The state in question was Maryland - which is one of the
smaller states in the US.

DH converted a car to electric which he used to drive to and from work
(about 12 miles but it was through a tunnel where pedestrians and
bikes would not be allowed).

Perhaps that can answer the question as to whether the US is
different. It is. There ARE places where it can be done, but
equally, there are places where there is no safe place to walk or
bike. A biker in the area was killed just this week by a trash truck.

Now I rarely drive except to a doctor's appointment or to the post
office. DH does the marketing, and when we go to the boat, we go
together in his truck.

When we are out in the boat, we try to go to marinas where things are
in walking distance. There are still some small towns on the
waterfront where things are within walking distance, and sometimes
marinas will let you have a courtesy car or there will be restaurants
that will come and pick you up at the marina for free.

When we used the boat to go south in the winter, we did not, of
course, have a car there. In those cases, DH would go to the grocery
store either on the bike with a basket on the back, or walk, and get a
taxi back to the boat. We also used to rent a car for a week once a
month to do the big shopping trip at the commissary, and to go to
those places that were not in walking distance.

NL wrote:
So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk
there?

cu
nicole

I can walk to the grocery store but I never do. How do you get the
groceries home or do you just go every day?

I can walk quite a few places actually because I live in the middle of
town. I used to live in the country which was a 20 miles out. I drive A
LOT even now though and here is why..

I drive to work because I need my car at work. If I didn't I'd probably
take my bike a lot.

I drive to get the kids from school because I leave from work and I
don't have time to walk. Always a time thing - never enough of it

Public transportation is very bad in many/most parts of the US. My town
is bigger so we do have it. It costs $2 one way for each rider and you
have to schedule it a day in advance. It doesn't make predictable stops
(but it does pick you up at your door) so you may ride it for 15 minutes
or 30 minutes before you actually get off. It closes at 4pm. It is
mostly used for kids and seniors.

What do you do in the winter? Do you have much snow there? We can't
ride bike in the winter. To much snow and ice.

We don't have sidewalks a lot of the time so it makes it really hard to
take a gang of kids anywhere safely.

"NL" wrote in message
...
Man, I'm really struggling with that right now when I read the driving
thread..

I'm in germany. I do not own a car. I do not even own a drivers license.
(Yeah, I know... I'm a rare thing, even here.) I do own a bike with a
trailor (chariot, totally the coolest thing I've bought in a long time).
I walk or ride my bike everywhere. If I need to go further than I want to
walk or ride my bike I take public transport and if public transport can't
get me there I ask my brother if he'll be able to take me there (IKEA, as
an example. I usually ask him at some point and he'll take me withing the
next month whenever it's most convenient for him).

I have lived completely without car or access to a car (with a driver) for
years while I was at university. I never felt like I was stranded and
unable to do my grocery shopping, or whatever. Sure, sometimes I would
think "Man, it would sure be cool to have a car and just up and go
somewhere right now." but it was never something I couldn't live without.
That said, I never lived really out in the country, well, I did, but I was
working at a butcher and the next grocery store was about a 30 min bike
ride away (up hill there, down hill back, thank heaven.) so I wasn't going
to starve or anything, but getting to the next city was challenging, there
was a bus that went down every two hours except during peak times when it
was going "every hour" (basically, one extra bus). But when I lived there
I did have access to a car (my boyfriend and his brother), so it wasn't a
huge issue.

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply not
get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to work
without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks just
like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually there
to do the walking around.

So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an issue
for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or whatever,
in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk
there?

cu
nicole

I'm in Canada, and it's not much different from the US, it seems.
I own a van. A car just doesn't do it with the kids and car seats.
I also own a bike and I also own a Chariot as well (and absolutely love
it... Who'd have thought a bike trailer/stroller/etc., worth half the amount
of the van would indeed be the best investment ever made?? Oh, and they're
made in the next city over from me LOL) There is a bus system here, and I
suppose it's not horrible. I would NOT take a bus with 3 little ones.
Nope, not on my watch. I do bike a lot. Quite a lot, actually, and we all
do.
For groceries, I normally drive. It's about a 10 min drive normally, or
about 20 minutes now with all the massive amounts of construction around
here. Main reasons I drive for groceries is that a normal grocery trip
leaves a dent of about $200-$250 in my bank account. It's a fair bit of
groceries that I would NOT walk with and wouldn't even fit in the Chariot
(with or without the girls in it!) There are also not very many good roads
to get there on a bike... It basically down one major, heavy traffic road
(4-5 lanes each direction, speed limit is set at 70km/h - which people abuse
and go faster anyways - but now down to massive construction, which brings
the limit to 50km/h - so people only abuse it by 10-20kms, it seems) I
don't care to ride with or without kids on big traffic infested roads with
cars zipping past at very fast speeds!
We also live a fair ways from anything... DS's football practice is not
within reasonable biking distance, my parents' do not live within reasonable
biking distance...
For quick trips to whatever store for a few items, I/we do bike. Going to
the park = bike ride.
No vehicle would just mean we don't really go anywhere that isn't close to
home. After a car accident, I was left with no vehicle for about a month
until we replaced it. We didn't go anywhere that wasn't within walking
distance. Actually, N and I took the bus ONCE with 2 - DD2 wasn't born yet
and the kids at the time were 5 and 6 months. NOT fun, although I do know
it wasn't as bad as it would be now - with a 7 year old, almost 3 year old
and 21 month old.

NL wrote:
[...]
So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.

It wouldn't be an issue for me either. But I remember my mother talking
about how much she looked forward to Jamie being able to ride in her car
so that she could take him on little trips to places without us and have
some fun outings to places too far away for her to walk to conveniently.
If I'd put a flat-out ban on her driving him anywhere, she'd have been
disappointed. I don't think it's unreasonable of the grandmother to
want to be able to drive the kid places.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

"NL" wrote in message
...
Man, I'm really struggling with that right now when I read the driving
thread..

I'm in germany. I do not own a car. I do not even own a drivers license.
(Yeah, I know... I'm a rare thing, even here.) I do own a bike with a
trailor (chariot, totally the coolest thing I've bought in a long time).
I walk or ride my bike everywhere. If I need to go further than I want to
walk or ride my bike I take public transport and if public transport can't
get me there I ask my brother if he'll be able to take me there (IKEA, as
an example. I usually ask him at some point and he'll take me withing the
next month whenever it's most convenient for him).

I have lived completely without car or access to a car (with a driver) for
years while I was at university. I never felt like I was stranded and
unable to do my grocery shopping, or whatever. Sure, sometimes I would
think "Man, it would sure be cool to have a car and just up and go
somewhere right now." but it was never something I couldn't live without.
That said, I never lived really out in the country, well, I did, but I was
working at a butcher and the next grocery store was about a 30 min bike
ride away (up hill there, down hill back, thank heaven.) so I wasn't going
to starve or anything, but getting to the next city was challenging, there
was a bus that went down every two hours except during peak times when it
was going "every hour" (basically, one extra bus). But when I lived there
I did have access to a car (my boyfriend and his brother), so it wasn't a
huge issue.

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply not
get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to work
without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks just
like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually there
to do the walking around.

So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an issue
for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or whatever,
in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk
there?

cu
nicole

Places in the US can be very far apart. People might live in one area, and
work and shop in other areas. Residential and commercial locations tend to
be separated. Grocery stores often are located outside of urban areas due to
high taxes and logistical issues, so people have to drive to obtain food.
It's not the "outback" (though some places in rural America are like that),
but there might be no sidewalks or bike lanes to use.

I don't know if you've ever been here, but the Europeans I've met that have
visited here are amazed by the vastness of the United States. We had guests
that thought you could drive from Pennsylvania to Iowa as a day trip (it's
over 1000 miles).

NL wrote:

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply
not get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to
work without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks
just like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually
there to do the walking around.

So, what I'm trying to say is, not driving a car for a day isn't an
issue for me. It's nothing that makes my life complicated or boring or
whatever, in fact, most days I don't ride in a car.
Is it really totally different in the states? Do you take your car for
every trip you have to make, even if it only takes 20 minutes to walk
there?

Yes, it's quite different, mostly because of the layout.
Certainly it is possible to get by without cars in many urban
areas, and some folks manage that quite handily. Lots of us
live in the suburbs, however, where the basic necessities of
life aren't within walking distance or maybe even biking distance
and public transportation is often unavailable or pitifully
inadequate. If I didn't have a car, life would be quite
challenging and I live in a suburb that is more walkable/bikeable
and has better public transportation than most. Those who
live in rural areas, of course, would have a much more difficult
time getting by without a car.
What would you say is an average distance for you to get
to a grocery store, a doctor's appointment, work, etc.?

Best wishes,
Ericka

NL wrote:

Anyway: is it so different in the states? Is there really so much
"outback" where you get stranded without a car because you can simply
not get groceries without a car because you can absolutely not get to
work without a car? I mean, I look at the maps and I think "Well, looks
just like here really." but you know, that's a map and I'm not actually
there to do the walking around.

Depends on where you live. Yes, that is exactly the case where I
live...I live in a 'town' that's only called such because we have a post
office. The nearest anything is 15 minutes away driving 65 mph down a
secondary highway.

Michelle
Flutist