Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

"TeacherMama" wrote in message
om...
I'm top posting this response to save the trouble of scrolling through
this now very long thread. I want to break my response into 2
separate issues.

First, Ronni, the child has ADHD-ODD. Nobody has any fault in this.
He got it from neither father nor mother. Different behavior on anyone
or everyone's part would not have changed this. It simply IS. He,
according to you, is fixated on his father and his lack of involvement
in his life. If his father were there full time, the child might be
fixated on his parents being married. If they were married, he might
be fixated on how early they got home from work. It would always be
something. Children who are ADHD-ODD need consistency from the adults
in their lives. They need guidelines and limits. They DO NOT need to
feel that they are victims, such as being the "victim" of a father who
does not meet their expectations. Now, in this case, Dad doesn't seem
to meet any of the guidelines that an ADHD-ODD child needs. But the
father is not really a part of his life, is he? Mom has to accept the
fact that she is doing this alone. Because, in reality, she is. This
is totally and completely apart from the issue of child support in any
form. It is a fact of life that needs to be accepted. For the child's
sake.

It's accepted. It is just disgusting how a parent of any child, mother or
father,
could be like this when their child is involved. (meaning not being around)

Now for the child support/father's responsibility arguments. Dad,
apparently, made it pretty clear that he didn't want to be a father.
You can't change that, no matter how angry or disgusted it makes you.
The government can't change that. It can only force him to pay
money--it can't make him a dad. And, apparently, the aren't doing
even that.

No, they arent even doing that. There is a court order, but it's not
followed and
nothing is done about it.

But, despite what you say of this case, the system, for the most part,
is weighted against men.

I never said it wasnt. In fact I agree that it is. But most postings I have
read
here refer to ALL women or ALL men in general...it's not right. Not all
women
take CS and run to the casino, not all women deceive a man to get pregnant
without their knowledge, and in the same respect not all men run out on
their
child, not all men ignore child support...I see alot of where they are
trying to get
fatherly rights heightened. Maybe it should ALL be on a case by case basis.
Not
ALL women can have an abortion (like when the father is against it), Not
all men
should pay child support (like when a woman pokes a hole in the condom to
'deceive'
the man into getting her pregnant maybe). Of course a case by case basis
would
involve ALOT of court time, it will save alot of unborn childrens lives and
will save
deceived men from 'burning their money' as one man had put it. Women do have
more choices, but if it were a man who carried the child and gave birth to
the baby I think
it would be vice versa. Where a man would have the choices.

I suggest you read more on this group and do
a bit of research to see how badly the system treats men. It was
apalling to me when I first got dragged into it.

I can imagine. Yes they order child support here, but lets just say that it
is a case where CP does deserve child support. No questions asked, just
assume this for a moment. When NCP doesn't pay, they send a letter....a
while later another letter...and so on...after a few years maybe a wage
attachment, when thats not honored it will be another year or more until
anything is done, I should say if anything is done. The only way to
'enforce' child support here is if you have a friend in the domestic
relations office it seems.

I think men and women should have equal choice in becoming parents.

I agree

I
don't think having sex is a choice to have a child. (I don't think
running around having sex as a social activity is a good idea anyway,
but that's another thread.) What if the system were set up so that
when a woman became pregnant, both the father and the mother, if they
were not in agreement, had to meet with a mediator. If one wanted the
child and the other did not, and the one could afford to raise the
child alone, that parent would get the child. If neither wanted the
child, it would go up for adoption. If neither could afford the child
it would go up for adoption. If both wanted the child, it would be
automatic 50/50 custody. And no money ever changed hands unless both
parents agreed. Would that work?

Sure that would work at first sight. I'm sure there would be alot of small
details that would need to be worked out, but yes. I even stated above,
everything should be on a case by case basis, based on what both parents
want/dont want, can afford/cant afford. I even put in another posting about
NCP
not paying CS in form of cash, but (assuming both parents wanted the child
etc)
splitting the things the child needs (assuming parents are split up). I also
said in
that same posting that if there wasnt a 50/50 custody then CP should
actually
be liable to pay a higher percentage of the childs needs because he/she
obviously
wanted to be the CP.

Finally, a voice of reason around here.
Tracy, you pointed out so much in this posting.
Just as I was starting to think that I aws the only one who is looking at
the best interest of the child. I look up to you raising your children alone
like that. It is hard to raise a child alone, and you had 2.

You also touched the childs suicided threat. Thank you for this. Children
indeed
want to make others happy. When he/she knows he/she is not wanted that is
very hard on him/her. This child has issues unrelated to the father also
(ADHD ODD) She has given up on dad. It just disgusts her that he can get
away with everything. An innocent child feels unwanted by his father, and
for a child feeling unwanted is torcherous.

She does alot for the child. He sees the best therapists in the county. She
spends alot of time with him. But as a human she gets frustrated. An ADHD
ODD child is hard to raise, especially alone. When the symptoms of the
conditions are at their peak is when she really gets upset that dad doesnt
want a thing to do with the child.

Alot of people argue there shouldnt be child support. Buy the thing the
child needs instead of monetary form. I agree that would be a good idea for
those custodial parents who dont use the CS toward the child. But, in this
case, if dad had to pay half of everything it would be alot more than the
child support amount (that she doesnt even get.) For anyone who knows what
psychiatrists cost, what medication costs...they would understand this.

If everyone thought more of the child and less about the money things would
be so much different.

Tracy, I hope all goes well with your situation. You must be a strong person
to have done this on your own. Good luck.


"Tracy" wrote in message
news:sG8Gb.631346$HS4.4601563@attbi_s01...
"Ronni" wrote in message
...

Anyone think of the child here? Everyone is too busy crying over the
adults
feelings inthe situation, what about the childs feelings?

I think of the children. Every time I sit down and read this news group I
can't help but to think of the children their situation is impacting. I
can't help to be concerned how it impacts their every day existence, and
what their future may bring. In an ideal world children wouldn't suffer
due
to their parents' decisions and in some case - bad choices. We don't live
in an ideal world. Instead children are growing up with hurt feelings
towards one parent, or another.

I have three sons. My ex, the father of my two oldest, has had nothing to
do with my sons. I've basically raised them without their father around.
He was convicted of child abuse related charge in 1987. My oldest two
sons
are now adults. I've seen first hand the damage their father has caused
them. I have a younger son whose father and I were never married. Unlike
my ex, this son's father has been very active in our son's life. He is a
good and decent man. He is an excellent father to our son. A part of me
has always felt that my ex should have been paying child support all
along.
Heck, I think he should have paid for all the doctor bills incurred due to
his abuse. But I have never received a penny. Instead I tried to do the
best I could. During those years I applied for student loans and put
myself
through college. I love what I'm doing, and I enjoy where I work. My
life
with all my sons has taught me a lot about life, about love, about
parenting, and most importantly - what I really want out of a relationship
with a man - for life - in terms of marriage.

As December 9th has rolled on past us it has marked the 18th year I've
been
separated/divorced. 18 years is a long time to put everything into
perspective and understand what is really important. What is important?
The kids, and how they view life. As I said, I basically raised my oldest
two sons without their father. Neither one has ever done drugs, got
involved in gangs, gone out drinking, gone out partying, etc. I've raised
them to be themselves, enjoy life, don't rush, and understand that their
actions can result in events which they didn't want to happen.

My boyfriend went through his divorce just last year. His ex cheated on
him
and left him, their home, and their kids. He has custody of all his kids.
She just doesn't get it. Even I had a heart-to-heart talk with her.
Tried
to explain to her that she can't go wrong if she shows the kids they are
important to her... but those kids continue to suffer. My boyfriend's
oldest son has mixed emotions concerning spending Christmas with his
mother.
He has a deep dislike (hate) for the man she sleeps with. He has only
started to really deal with the divorce, and why she left, just a couple
of
months ago. So I see the pain in their eyes. I see the pain in their
voice. I've listened to my boyfriend talk about it, and it kills him.
Every one of those kids were planned. He would have never agreed to
having
children if he knew they would divorce. It kills him to see his kids in
pain.

A part of my boyfriend wants to tell his ex to just disappear. If she
can't
be a real active party in the kids' lives, then just go away. Otherwise,
be
active in their lives and think about them. Stop putting the man she
sleeps
with in front of the kids. She wanted the kids... go figure.

Just this last weekend my boyfriend's 9 year old daughter gave me a card
and
tree decoration she made. I opened it while I was there. The card read
that she loves me and wants me to be her mother. This came from a little
girl who once tried to do everything possible to cause my boyfriend and I
problems in our relationship. I gave her a big hug and hid my tears. I
thanked her - she has come along way, and she is a really good kid.

Do I think of the kids? yes I do. So does my boyfriend. We don't put
each
other first. Instead we put our kids first. Six kids between the two of
us. All very different than each other, but all good kids. We love our
own
kids, and we love each other's kids. Our relationship is golden, and our
kids mean more than life itself to us.

I remember reading in one of your posts that the young child was thinking
of
suicide. Please understand that it is very normal for a child to wish
they
were never born, or wish themselves were dead, when one, or both, their
parents don't want them. Or I should say, when they believe one, or both,
of their parents don't want them. What a horrible feeling to have to know
your parent wishes you never existed. What child on this earth, at that
age, wouldn't want to make their parents happy - even if that means not
existing. For this child I'd give him lots of big hugs. While hugging
the
child just give them silence. Let them know they are loved and wanted.
Let
them know their every existence is important to someone out their in this
world. Embrace that child and allow him to feel his pain, then allow him
to
heal. Show him the world is not a cold hard place to live, but it is
filled
with love and life.

I don't know what else to say... a triangle best represents the
relationship
between all parties after the break up of a relationship involving a
child.
There is the relationship between the child and each parent, which
represents two of the lines. The third line represents the relationship
between the parents. The one of those lines are broken between child and
a
parent, it flattens the triangle causing an imbalance in the triangle and
puts one of the parents in the middle. If the parent who has the
relationship with the child continues with the relationship (bad or good)
with the other parent, it can cause the child much pain. Sometimes it is
best for the parent in that type of situation to sever the relationship
with
the other parent. This typically goes against what I normally would say,
since I support shared and equal parenting. But I don't allow my normal
beliefs to cloud my vision that when something is not right - it isn't
healthy for the child. The child you speak of is not in a healthy
situation. It is probably best for your friend to just walk away. If
child
support is something she seeks from the father, than let the state deal
with
it. She has a son which needs her right now, and she can't put herself in
the middle of the relationship between her son and his father.


Take care,
Tracy
~~~~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/
"You can't solve problems with the same
type of thinking that created them."
Albert Einstein

*** spamguard in place! to email me: tracy at hornschuch dot net ***

Finally, a voice of reason around here.
Tracy, you pointed out so much in this posting.
Just as I was starting to think that I aws the only one who is looking at
the best interest of the child. I look up to you raising your children alone
like that. It is hard to raise a child alone, and you had 2.

You also touched the childs suicided threat. Thank you for this. Children
indeed
want to make others happy. When he/she knows he/she is not wanted that is
very hard on him/her. This child has issues unrelated to the father also
(ADHD ODD) She has given up on dad. It just disgusts her that he can get
away with everything. An innocent child feels unwanted by his father, and
for a child feeling unwanted is torcherous.

She does alot for the child. He sees the best therapists in the county. She
spends alot of time with him. But as a human she gets frustrated. An ADHD
ODD child is hard to raise, especially alone. When the symptoms of the
conditions are at their peak is when she really gets upset that dad doesnt
want a thing to do with the child.

Alot of people argue there shouldnt be child support. Buy the thing the
child needs instead of monetary form. I agree that would be a good idea for
those custodial parents who dont use the CS toward the child. But, in this
case, if dad had to pay half of everything it would be alot more than the
child support amount (that she doesnt even get.) For anyone who knows what
psychiatrists cost, what medication costs...they would understand this.

If everyone thought more of the child and less about the money things would
be so much different.

Tracy, I hope all goes well with your situation. You must be a strong person
to have done this on your own. Good luck.


"Tracy" wrote in message
news:sG8Gb.631346$HS4.4601563@attbi_s01...
"Ronni" wrote in message
...

Anyone think of the child here? Everyone is too busy crying over the
adults
feelings inthe situation, what about the childs feelings?

I think of the children. Every time I sit down and read this news group I
can't help but to think of the children their situation is impacting. I
can't help to be concerned how it impacts their every day existence, and
what their future may bring. In an ideal world children wouldn't suffer
due
to their parents' decisions and in some case - bad choices. We don't live
in an ideal world. Instead children are growing up with hurt feelings
towards one parent, or another.

I have three sons. My ex, the father of my two oldest, has had nothing to
do with my sons. I've basically raised them without their father around.
He was convicted of child abuse related charge in 1987. My oldest two
sons
are now adults. I've seen first hand the damage their father has caused
them. I have a younger son whose father and I were never married. Unlike
my ex, this son's father has been very active in our son's life. He is a
good and decent man. He is an excellent father to our son. A part of me
has always felt that my ex should have been paying child support all
along.
Heck, I think he should have paid for all the doctor bills incurred due to
his abuse. But I have never received a penny. Instead I tried to do the
best I could. During those years I applied for student loans and put
myself
through college. I love what I'm doing, and I enjoy where I work. My
life
with all my sons has taught me a lot about life, about love, about
parenting, and most importantly - what I really want out of a relationship
with a man - for life - in terms of marriage.

As December 9th has rolled on past us it has marked the 18th year I've
been
separated/divorced. 18 years is a long time to put everything into
perspective and understand what is really important. What is important?
The kids, and how they view life. As I said, I basically raised my oldest
two sons without their father. Neither one has ever done drugs, got
involved in gangs, gone out drinking, gone out partying, etc. I've raised
them to be themselves, enjoy life, don't rush, and understand that their
actions can result in events which they didn't want to happen.

My boyfriend went through his divorce just last year. His ex cheated on
him
and left him, their home, and their kids. He has custody of all his kids.
She just doesn't get it. Even I had a heart-to-heart talk with her.
Tried
to explain to her that she can't go wrong if she shows the kids they are
important to her... but those kids continue to suffer. My boyfriend's
oldest son has mixed emotions concerning spending Christmas with his
mother.
He has a deep dislike (hate) for the man she sleeps with. He has only
started to really deal with the divorce, and why she left, just a couple
of
months ago. So I see the pain in their eyes. I see the pain in their
voice. I've listened to my boyfriend talk about it, and it kills him.
Every one of those kids were planned. He would have never agreed to
having
children if he knew they would divorce. It kills him to see his kids in
pain.

A part of my boyfriend wants to tell his ex to just disappear. If she
can't
be a real active party in the kids' lives, then just go away. Otherwise,
be
active in their lives and think about them. Stop putting the man she
sleeps
with in front of the kids. She wanted the kids... go figure.

Just this last weekend my boyfriend's 9 year old daughter gave me a card
and
tree decoration she made. I opened it while I was there. The card read
that she loves me and wants me to be her mother. This came from a little
girl who once tried to do everything possible to cause my boyfriend and I
problems in our relationship. I gave her a big hug and hid my tears. I
thanked her - she has come along way, and she is a really good kid.

Do I think of the kids? yes I do. So does my boyfriend. We don't put
each
other first. Instead we put our kids first. Six kids between the two of
us. All very different than each other, but all good kids. We love our
own
kids, and we love each other's kids. Our relationship is golden, and our
kids mean more than life itself to us.

I remember reading in one of your posts that the young child was thinking
of
suicide. Please understand that it is very normal for a child to wish
they
were never born, or wish themselves were dead, when one, or both, their
parents don't want them. Or I should say, when they believe one, or both,
of their parents don't want them. What a horrible feeling to have to know
your parent wishes you never existed. What child on this earth, at that
age, wouldn't want to make their parents happy - even if that means not
existing. For this child I'd give him lots of big hugs. While hugging
the
child just give them silence. Let them know they are loved and wanted.
Let
them know their every existence is important to someone out their in this
world. Embrace that child and allow him to feel his pain, then allow him
to
heal. Show him the world is not a cold hard place to live, but it is
filled
with love and life.

I don't know what else to say... a triangle best represents the
relationship
between all parties after the break up of a relationship involving a
child.
There is the relationship between the child and each parent, which
represents two of the lines. The third line represents the relationship
between the parents. The one of those lines are broken between child and
a
parent, it flattens the triangle causing an imbalance in the triangle and
puts one of the parents in the middle. If the parent who has the
relationship with the child continues with the relationship (bad or good)
with the other parent, it can cause the child much pain. Sometimes it is
best for the parent in that type of situation to sever the relationship
with
the other parent. This typically goes against what I normally would say,
since I support shared and equal parenting. But I don't allow my normal
beliefs to cloud my vision that when something is not right - it isn't
healthy for the child. The child you speak of is not in a healthy
situation. It is probably best for your friend to just walk away. If
child
support is something she seeks from the father, than let the state deal
with
it. She has a son which needs her right now, and she can't put herself in
the middle of the relationship between her son and his father.


Take care,
Tracy
~~~~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/
"You can't solve problems with the same
type of thinking that created them."
Albert Einstein

*** spamguard in place! to email me: tracy at hornschuch dot net ***

Children raised at the hands of the likes of ronni and her friend OFTEN
show ...
"behavioral disorders" - it's a result of ****-poor parenting.

You are so ignorant. Behavioral disorders are a medical condition--nothing
myself or my friend couldve done would change the condition of a child. Do
you know what ADHD & ODD are? Maybe you should do some research on that.
What do you know about raising a child with ADHD ODD? What do you know about
raising that child in a single parent household? All you know is statistics
and what your twisted mind has led you to believe. If 'behaviorial
disorders' were a result of poor parenting then there would be alot of
parents arrested for child neglect---as to be diagnosed with ADHD ODD you
need to see psychiatrist/psychologists--if there was abuse or neglect in any
way they would have the legal responsibility to report it.

Children raised at the hands of the likes of ronni and her friend OFTEN
show ...
"behavioral disorders" - it's a result of ****-poor parenting.

You are so ignorant. Behavioral disorders are a medical condition--nothing
myself or my friend couldve done would change the condition of a child. Do
you know what ADHD & ODD are? Maybe you should do some research on that.
What do you know about raising a child with ADHD ODD? What do you know about
raising that child in a single parent household? All you know is statistics
and what your twisted mind has led you to believe. If 'behaviorial
disorders' were a result of poor parenting then there would be alot of
parents arrested for child neglect---as to be diagnosed with ADHD ODD you
need to see psychiatrist/psychologists--if there was abuse or neglect in any
way they would have the legal responsibility to report it.

"Mel Gamble" wrote in message
...
Dumb as a stump....sound familiar? Soooo....

"Mom" never has to say anything - if she is half of an "oops", she never
has to tell anyone that there WAS an "oops", except the abortion
doctor. And if she's willing to tell somebody, she can wait and tell
the delivering doctor and the adoption agency....or just the delivering
doctor a few days before she totally dumps her responsibilities at the
local fire station.

She doesnt have an 'oops' by herself.

"Mom" is never going to be "judged" by this society for not wanting to
become a parent, and any of many ways she has to legally avoid it AFTER
an "oops"... Apparently "ronni" is unaware of all these women-only
options.


I am aware of these options. Obviously you dont know where I live. Women who
abort babies (unless raped etc) are condoned here. Women who give up their
children for any reason or judged. Dont speak of where you live and refer to
where I live. Every state, city, and town is different on the views and here
you would be judged.


No you don't. You "know" what dad should be - according to you. If you
really knew dad, you'd keep your mouth shut and go hide in a corner.

You are so stupid. I DO know dad, personally. Why would I shut my mouth and
go hide in the corner? If you knew dad that is what you would do because he
is the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to fathers.

They are more likely to know other kids without fathers than they are to
know other kids with mothers who have the same color of hair as their
own mothers. Ditto for mothers driving the same make of auto. They are
more likely to run into other kids without fathers in the home than to
run into other kids with just about any other specific factor in their
lives. They are more likely to feel like outcasts because they still
have "cable" instead of a satellite dish....

And kids question all these things. Why does everyone here have brown hair?
Why does she have a Camaro like yours? Why doesnt he/she have a dad either?
Why does his dad see him?
And--FYI--most 6 year olds dont know, or care, between satellite or cable.
If they have satellite, they probably dont know what cable is and vice
versa.


You make the assumption there has to be an NCP. You make the assumption
a woman should still be able to force a man to become a parent against
his wishes. You make the assumption a woman should not be held
resposible for her own decisions. You make many illogical and unjust
assumptions.

I didnt say that. The case we were discussing does have a NCP. Men force
women who cannot morally give up their child to become parents. Men have
more control over a woman getting pregnant that she does. He has the choices
before conception, she has them after. She cant make him where a condom, he
cant make her have an abortion. You make unjust assumptions at my thoughts
that werent even discussed.
it best to let baby make his own decision about Dad..



MANY people feel that "non-custodial" fathers who tell the truth to
their genetic (or not) dependents are "jerkoffs". Strange how many
"honest, decent people" think it's best to lie to kids.

So tell an innocent child, who doesnt understand this crap, and tell him
'Hey I never wanted you and I dont know' TO A 6 YEAR OLD!! You disgust me.
Tellthe child the truth when he is old enough to understand it, not when he
will blame himself.


??? That's an easy answer - the kind of woman (or man) who would opt
for abortion. Or adoption. Or dropping off her "oops" at the local
fire station.

And the same thing is said about women who do thse things here. Where do you
live? Surely you need to get out and see the world and know that different
places have a different idea of what is right and wrong. Different places
have different ways of judging such rights and wrongs.
pressure him into it. So your statement about 'without

Ya mean like as in the abortion debate? Or the debates that were held
concerning single-parent adoption? Or the debates that were held before
baby "drop-off" laws were enacted?

Any debate on the rights and wrongs of a parent.

Unless you're a woman and don't want to...

Judging all women? They dont want to pay their bills so they dont? You are
really a sexist arent you?

I

And what other adult caused that bill????

I never said I didnt make the bill, I said sure I dont want to pay it, Id
rather go spend it on something else....BUT I DO PAY IT....do you ever see
the point in anything i say?


can go get $750 in other items the child needs.Child day care/babysitter

: ) : ) : ) : ) : )

ronni has unwittingly described CS - mom gets to bill dad $750 for a
"need" totalling $150....

Excuse me I put in an extra 0----I meant $75 ---- as I am sure you know---oh
right you dont make mistakes...

: ) : ) : ) : ) : )





They didn't?????? WTF country are you posting from?????

Why you want to come live here so you dont have to support your children
either?
the child.

According to the law in this state - oregun - they are. And the laws
are pretty much the same in every other state in the USA. Under those
conditions, the custodial parent(s) will NEVER face legal action.

Yeah, it may be the legal way of saying they were raised, but a disgusting
way. Who wouldnt want more than this for their children? Not you obviously.

"Mel Gamble" wrote in message
...
Dumb as a stump....sound familiar? Soooo....

"Mom" never has to say anything - if she is half of an "oops", she never
has to tell anyone that there WAS an "oops", except the abortion
doctor. And if she's willing to tell somebody, she can wait and tell
the delivering doctor and the adoption agency....or just the delivering
doctor a few days before she totally dumps her responsibilities at the
local fire station.

She doesnt have an 'oops' by herself.

"Mom" is never going to be "judged" by this society for not wanting to
become a parent, and any of many ways she has to legally avoid it AFTER
an "oops"... Apparently "ronni" is unaware of all these women-only
options.


I am aware of these options. Obviously you dont know where I live. Women who
abort babies (unless raped etc) are condoned here. Women who give up their
children for any reason or judged. Dont speak of where you live and refer to
where I live. Every state, city, and town is different on the views and here
you would be judged.


No you don't. You "know" what dad should be - according to you. If you
really knew dad, you'd keep your mouth shut and go hide in a corner.

You are so stupid. I DO know dad, personally. Why would I shut my mouth and
go hide in the corner? If you knew dad that is what you would do because he
is the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to fathers.

They are more likely to know other kids without fathers than they are to
know other kids with mothers who have the same color of hair as their
own mothers. Ditto for mothers driving the same make of auto. They are
more likely to run into other kids without fathers in the home than to
run into other kids with just about any other specific factor in their
lives. They are more likely to feel like outcasts because they still
have "cable" instead of a satellite dish....

And kids question all these things. Why does everyone here have brown hair?
Why does she have a Camaro like yours? Why doesnt he/she have a dad either?
Why does his dad see him?
And--FYI--most 6 year olds dont know, or care, between satellite or cable.
If they have satellite, they probably dont know what cable is and vice
versa.


You make the assumption there has to be an NCP. You make the assumption
a woman should still be able to force a man to become a parent against
his wishes. You make the assumption a woman should not be held
resposible for her own decisions. You make many illogical and unjust
assumptions.

I didnt say that. The case we were discussing does have a NCP. Men force
women who cannot morally give up their child to become parents. Men have
more control over a woman getting pregnant that she does. He has the choices
before conception, she has them after. She cant make him where a condom, he
cant make her have an abortion. You make unjust assumptions at my thoughts
that werent even discussed.
it best to let baby make his own decision about Dad..



MANY people feel that "non-custodial" fathers who tell the truth to
their genetic (or not) dependents are "jerkoffs". Strange how many
"honest, decent people" think it's best to lie to kids.

So tell an innocent child, who doesnt understand this crap, and tell him
'Hey I never wanted you and I dont know' TO A 6 YEAR OLD!! You disgust me.
Tellthe child the truth when he is old enough to understand it, not when he
will blame himself.


??? That's an easy answer - the kind of woman (or man) who would opt
for abortion. Or adoption. Or dropping off her "oops" at the local
fire station.

And the same thing is said about women who do thse things here. Where do you
live? Surely you need to get out and see the world and know that different
places have a different idea of what is right and wrong. Different places
have different ways of judging such rights and wrongs.
pressure him into it. So your statement about 'without

Ya mean like as in the abortion debate? Or the debates that were held
concerning single-parent adoption? Or the debates that were held before
baby "drop-off" laws were enacted?

Any debate on the rights and wrongs of a parent.

Unless you're a woman and don't want to...

Judging all women? They dont want to pay their bills so they dont? You are
really a sexist arent you?

I

And what other adult caused that bill????

I never said I didnt make the bill, I said sure I dont want to pay it, Id
rather go spend it on something else....BUT I DO PAY IT....do you ever see
the point in anything i say?


can go get $750 in other items the child needs.Child day care/babysitter

: ) : ) : ) : ) : )

ronni has unwittingly described CS - mom gets to bill dad $750 for a
"need" totalling $150....

Excuse me I put in an extra 0----I meant $75 ---- as I am sure you know---oh
right you dont make mistakes...

: ) : ) : ) : ) : )





They didn't?????? WTF country are you posting from?????

Why you want to come live here so you dont have to support your children
either?
the child.

According to the law in this state - oregun - they are. And the laws
are pretty much the same in every other state in the USA. Under those
conditions, the custodial parent(s) will NEVER face legal action.

Yeah, it may be the legal way of saying they were raised, but a disgusting
way. Who wouldnt want more than this for their children? Not you obviously.

"Paul Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Ronni" wrote in message
...

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
Ronni:

The tone of your comments below suggests that you have not devoted
much
time to thinking about these issues. So I will content myself with
making one simple point.

You seem to justify the present situation, where the choices are made
unilaterally by women, by saying that it's the woman's body that is
involved.

Let's assume for the moment that this is a fair summary of the
situation (and there are many who would not agree, since another human
being--the unborn child--is involved). However, if the woman is to
have
all the choices on this biological basis, why shouldn't the man have
choices, on the same biological basis, about whether or not to pay
child
support?

Because he helped make the child.

No he diddn't.......only the sole and unilateral choices of the mother
made
the CHILD

A woman doesn't get pregnant by herself. When a woman gets pregnant a man
can say what he wants, think what he wants, but that baby is part of the
woman.

He took the responsiblility of having sex
and a baby was conceived.

Free hint for the clueless........conception DOES NOT equate to
childbirth.

And the point is what? If you do the deed accept the possible consequences.
What you are saying is a man is no longer responsible for his actions in
making a child.

If he (or any NCP) didn't want to pay child
support and felt so strongly that he didn't want to be a father then the
only
true precaution is not to have sex.

When the same standard is applied to women, then it would aplly equally to
men

It is applied to women. If a woman doesnt want to get pregnant dont have
sex. Birth control isnt 100%...its plain and simple but you dont seem to get
it. And on the same note, some women cant take Birth Control --- keep that
in mind. But certain people in this conversation tend to believe that all
the womens choices are easily made. How many of you relize that birth
control can increase the risk of the women who takes it getting certain kind
of cancers? It can cause blood clots. But we are supposed to put our bodies,
and in some cases our lives, at risk because you dont want to be
responsible.


There's no biological imperative to pay child support. There's no
organ in the male body that generates this money. It's purely a legal
requirement, and could be repealed.

Legal requirement, yes. But it is also the responsibility of a parent.

Circular arguement........It is a responsibility because it is a current
legal requirement.

No it is the responsibility as a human being. Bring another life into the
world and not help support that life? Disgusting. You whine, cry, bitch, and
moan about having to pay child support. Have you ever thought of what a
woman has to go through to carry a child, give birth, have an abortion or
give the child up for adoption? Of course not, you see the $ signs being
taken out of your paycheck...

The
message
being given here is that as long as you didn't want to have a baby then
you
shouldn't have to pay child support.

Women already have that right.

Oh really? How is that? Legal requirements apply to a non custodial mother
too. When the mother is the CP she is giving alot more to that child in
every way than the NC father. Same when the father is the CP and the mother
the NCP. CP always are giving more to the child than NCP.

"Paul Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Ronni" wrote in message
...

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
Ronni:

The tone of your comments below suggests that you have not devoted
much
time to thinking about these issues. So I will content myself with
making one simple point.

You seem to justify the present situation, where the choices are made
unilaterally by women, by saying that it's the woman's body that is
involved.

Let's assume for the moment that this is a fair summary of the
situation (and there are many who would not agree, since another human
being--the unborn child--is involved). However, if the woman is to
have
all the choices on this biological basis, why shouldn't the man have
choices, on the same biological basis, about whether or not to pay
child
support?

Because he helped make the child.

No he diddn't.......only the sole and unilateral choices of the mother
made
the CHILD

A woman doesn't get pregnant by herself. When a woman gets pregnant a man
can say what he wants, think what he wants, but that baby is part of the
woman.

He took the responsiblility of having sex
and a baby was conceived.

Free hint for the clueless........conception DOES NOT equate to
childbirth.

And the point is what? If you do the deed accept the possible consequences.
What you are saying is a man is no longer responsible for his actions in
making a child.

If he (or any NCP) didn't want to pay child
support and felt so strongly that he didn't want to be a father then the
only
true precaution is not to have sex.

When the same standard is applied to women, then it would aplly equally to
men

It is applied to women. If a woman doesnt want to get pregnant dont have
sex. Birth control isnt 100%...its plain and simple but you dont seem to get
it. And on the same note, some women cant take Birth Control --- keep that
in mind. But certain people in this conversation tend to believe that all
the womens choices are easily made. How many of you relize that birth
control can increase the risk of the women who takes it getting certain kind
of cancers? It can cause blood clots. But we are supposed to put our bodies,
and in some cases our lives, at risk because you dont want to be
responsible.


There's no biological imperative to pay child support. There's no
organ in the male body that generates this money. It's purely a legal
requirement, and could be repealed.

Legal requirement, yes. But it is also the responsibility of a parent.

Circular arguement........It is a responsibility because it is a current
legal requirement.

No it is the responsibility as a human being. Bring another life into the
world and not help support that life? Disgusting. You whine, cry, bitch, and
moan about having to pay child support. Have you ever thought of what a
woman has to go through to carry a child, give birth, have an abortion or
give the child up for adoption? Of course not, you see the $ signs being
taken out of your paycheck...

The
message
being given here is that as long as you didn't want to have a baby then
you
shouldn't have to pay child support.

Women already have that right.

Oh really? How is that? Legal requirements apply to a non custodial mother
too. When the mother is the CP she is giving alot more to that child in
every way than the NC father. Same when the father is the CP and the mother
the NCP. CP always are giving more to the child than NCP.

"Ronni" wrote in message
...

"Paul Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Ronni" wrote in message
...

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
Ronni:

The tone of your comments below suggests that you have not devoted
much
time to thinking about these issues. So I will content myself with
making one simple point.

You seem to justify the present situation, where the choices are
made
unilaterally by women, by saying that it's the woman's body that is
involved.

Let's assume for the moment that this is a fair summary of the
situation (and there are many who would not agree, since another
human
being--the unborn child--is involved). However, if the woman is to
have
all the choices on this biological basis, why shouldn't the man have
choices, on the same biological basis, about whether or not to pay
child
support?

Because he helped make the child.

No he diddn't.......only the sole and unilateral choices of the mother
made
the CHILD

A woman doesn't get pregnant by herself. When a woman gets pregnant a man
can say what he wants, think what he wants, but that baby is part of the
woman.

He took the responsiblility of having sex
and a baby was conceived.

Free hint for the clueless........conception DOES NOT equate to
childbirth.

And the point is what? If you do the deed accept the possible
consequences.
What you are saying is a man is no longer responsible for his actions in
making a child.

If he (or any NCP) didn't want to pay child
support and felt so strongly that he didn't want to be a father then
the
only
true precaution is not to have sex.

When the same standard is applied to women, then it would aplly equally
to
men

It is applied to women. If a woman doesnt want to get pregnant dont have
sex.
==
Sooo, you had sex meaning you wanted to get pregnant and give birth and keep
said child.
Your choice.
What if your choice was *not* to keep the child and the father wanted the
child?
Do you think you should be court ordered to give birth, hand the child to
dad and pay him
child support for 18-21 years, plus daycare plus half of all unpaid medical
bills and college,
if court-ordered for a child you did not want? Do you really think that
women's lib activists wouldn't
make a huge noise about giving *men* reproductive choices and making the
mother
pay him?
===
===