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South stands alone...
http://nospank.net/al2.htm
South stands alone and more than one of every 10 licks lands in Alabama Challen Stephens, Times Staff Writer, The Huntsville Times, December 17, 2000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- It's no longer allowed in basic training. It's outlawed in mental hospitals and prisons. But if you attend school in Alabama, you'd better watch your backside. That's because Alabama is one of 23 states that still allows school principals to use corporal punishment. Throughout all U.S. public schools, more than one of every 10 licks lands in Alabama. During the 1998-99 school year, if you compare the number of paddlings to the number of students, Alabama whacked 6.3 percent of the student body. That's a batting average topped only by Mississippi and Arkansas. But around here, you probably need not worry unless you're a boy and you attend Madison County Schools or one of a handful of holdover schools in Huntsville. Madison City Schools banned corporal punishment two years ago, 40 years after the British navy did. During that same 1998-99 school year, Huntsville paddled 265 kids. Of those, 73 percent were black in a system that's only 41 percent black. "I'm dumbfounded by the numbers we have," said interim Superintendent Mary Ruth Yates, "but that's nothing compared to the county." That same school year, Madison County schools swatted 1,177 students. Out of those, 283 were in special education classes. The vast majority were boys. "The parents know right up front that's a possibility," said county Superintendent Ray Swaim. "It should be used as a last resort. But it works when appropriately done." Still, many principals refuse to risk it anymore, having seen bruised buttocks wind up on the nightly news or fueling lawsuits. Across the country, corporal punishment is fading, losing ground over both legal and moral concerns. State school board member Mary Jane Caylor is now pushing to ban it throughout Alabama. Alabama is one of only 23 states that still allows paddling of students Paddling Some cheer. They argue that in order to raise peaceful children, society should ban all forms of hitting. Others believe that spanking is a quick, effective form of discipline when dealt carefully and with love. Check the statistics he Parents and principals agree with the second argument, especially in the more rural areas around Huntsville. "Sometimes," said Swaim, "we call parents at home and they tell us, 'Try that paddle.' " South stands alone In the 1980s, states began to ban paddling. In 1986 five had banned it. Now, 27 have outlawed it. Another dozen seldom use it, although corporal punishment remains on the books. But that change has yet to come south. Most of the 23 states that still allow corporal punishment span from Texas to Florida. Alabama law permits it. The State Department of Education allows local school boards to make the call. For Dr. Henry Clark, it was a no-brainer. Clark's the superintendent in Madison, where kids at Bob Jones High used to choose between three licks or after-school detention. Boys often would take the licks. But Clark said paddling isn't an effective deterrent, and that it opens the door for lawsuits. "I understand that there are some people that say you should never spank your child. But to say that anytime you spank your child is abuse, that is ludicrous." Shawn Fargerson, school board member What if a student gets paddled, goes home, gets paddled some more and shows up bruised? Who's to say how that rear end got black and blue? In Huntsville, paddling without a witness just cost one principal, Ollie Jones, her job. "At one time it was used very often at virtually all the school systems in the state," said Clark. At one time, the coaches at the old Joe Bradley High School in Huntsville painted two palm-down prints on the coaches' desk. They'd call boys in whenever they were caught cutting up in the hall. Match palm to palm and lean and wait. It all goes back to the Bible. The Bible says . . . Spare the rod, spoil the child. That's not the real Biblical verse. "People often misquote that," said Shawn Fargerson, a member of the county school board. "But the emphasis there is not on abuse and beating the child, but on loving the child and training the child." Read King Solomon's actual advice from Proverbs 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Fargerson is not only a board member, but a father and associate pastor at Sherwood Baptist Church. He reads that line to say that corporal punishment can be effective at home, delivered with due explanations, without anger, with a hug afterward. It should be used rarely in schools, he said. In fact, all the local Catholic schools have completely banned the practice. Other traditional Christian, private schools, such as Westminster Christian Academy and Madison Academy, still wield the paddle. In the book of Proverbs, King Solomon goes on to refer to corporal punishment several more times, including: "The rod and reproof give wisdom; but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame." The problem is that Solomon's own son, Rehoboam, grew into a widely hated ruler after Solomon's death. And the growing opponents of corporal punishment sometimes like to argue that Rehoboam's cruel streak was the result of all that unspared "rod." "I understand that there are some people that say you should never spank your child," said Fargerson, "but to say that anytime you spank your child is abuse, that is ludicrous. "I think God has given us some instructions in the Bible about how we ought to live our lives, and when we try to live our lives apart from those instructions we get into trouble." Three licks Here's how it works these days: The first-grader wouldn't sit still. Even at that age, he could sense the slipping control of the student teacher. He ran. He screamed. He poked and laughed. Time-out failed to slow him. Loss of recess didn't work either. "He just wanted to entertain everyone," said principal Eleanor Smithers. "When you've tried everything else you can think of and it hasn't worked . . .." Three licks. A wooden paddle, usually one made in woodshop. Every principal in Madison County Schools has one. At Lynn Fanning Elementary, Smithers rarely uses hers. "When I'm at wit's end," she said. "I might paddle five children every two years." At other schools, like Riverton Middle, the principal might paddle more than 100 kids each year. These days there are a few basic requirements and little consistency between any two public schools. Kids get paddled for anything from tardiness to talking back to fighting on the playground. Administrators wield the paddles. The target area is limited to the buttocks. There must be a certified teacher as a witness. Administrators usually, but not always, call the parents before or after the discipline. When it comes to high school and middle school, students usually get to choose: take three licks or attend after-school detention, take three licks or finish a written assignment, etc. According to principals, boys will choose the licks. Male administrators paddle older boys and women paddle older girls. "It's a small, flat wooden board. It's about the size of a Ping Pong paddle," said principal Dan Evans at New Market School. "We use a bigger board for bigger children." The smaller paddles startle elementary children with a crack of air. The heavier paddles don't bounce back like the lighter ones. "The thing about corporal punishment," said Evans, "it's not done to inflict pain. It scares them more than anything." Nail-biting and bed-wetting That's still barbaric and that's still abuse, argues Dr. Robert Fathman. "It's immediate and loud, but it's teaching the wrong lesson to children," he said. "It says if I disagree with your behavior, I have the right to be violent." Fathman, of Dublin, Ohio, heads the National Coalition to Abolish Corporal Punishment in Schools. A tough paddling can emotionally injure a child. Fathman is a psychologist. He says that even without inflicting pain, paddling can create enough fear to cause bed-wetting, nail-biting and nightmares. Plus, a paddling can always physically bruise a child. "If those were kids being injured by an amusement park ride, the state would shut down that amusement park ride," he said. The American Psychiatric Association agrees. The National Education Association, the National Committee to Prevent Child Abuse and the American Medical Association are just three more of the 40 national groups lined up to outlaw corporal punishment. Most of Europe has banned it in schools. So have Japan, China, South Africa and Russia. A principal's office and the boxing ring are the only two public places in America where it's legally sanctioned to strike another person. Bring in the parents At Lakewood Elementary in Huntsville, Principal Norton Webb hung up his paddle 10 years ago. Last year, he decide to pull it back out. But now when he reaches wit's end, he reaches for the phone. "Hello, Mrs. Jones, you wouldn't believe the language your son just used. He repeated something Slim Shady says . . . " If such behavior happens and won't stop, he invites the parent to come to Lakewood and do the paddling themselves. Two accepted his invitation this year. "I could do that," said Carolyn Hammonds, president of the Madison County Council of PTAs. "I know there are children that really act up. And I grew up in the old school. If someone acted up, it was OK. "But that's a tough call. I think (paddling) might be better left home." Elsewhere, some creative principals make the student call his or her parents to explain why he or she is about to be paddled. Many choose not to use it at all. "We believe that discipline is taught," said Principal Helen Taylor at University Place Elementary. "We teach children to behave and get along in a peaceful way." But many principals simply swat away, and send a note that may or may not make it home afterwards. "However, we have to be very, very careful as far as the licks and making sure you're not too forceful," said principal Ann Savage at Ed White Middle. "That one kid can bruise easily so that the parent gets upset and files a lawsuit." Ed White is one of 10 schools in Huntsville that still use corporal punishment. The Huntsville list includes McDonnell Elementary, Rolling Hills Elementary, Stone Middle, Chapman Middle and Lincoln Elementary. Butler is the only city high school where students can still choose corporal punishment over detention. "I think corporal punishment has outlived its usefulness," said Yates, the interim superintendent. David Blair, a city school board member, said Huntsville needs to consider banning the practice. In Madison County Schools, the school board says it works. Sexism? Racism? Harvest School paddled 226 times during the 1998-99 school year. Back then it was a K-8 school. It had 580 kids. That meant as many as 39 percent of the students met Phillip Cunningham's paddle. And only four of those times did he paddle a girl. "Probably 10 times as many boys needed it," said Rich McAdams, a county school board member. "We're wired different." Cunningham has retired. But the new principal, Stephanie Burton, still paddles, although she said the need had faded without the middle school kids. But gender differences remain at Harvest and every other county school. It's the same across the nation. Compliance report According to the 1998-99 compliance report of the U.S. Office for Civil Rights, boys accounted for 80 percent of paddlings. Black children are also over-represented. Throughout the nation, black students are more than twice as likely to be spanked as white students. In Huntsville, African-American boys took 66 percent of the paddlings. But those boys comprise only 20 percent of the total student body. In Madison County Schools, whose student body is 13.4 percent African-American, black children accounted for 17.4 percent of the paddlings. Look across the country. African-American students account for 17 percent of U.S. students, but 37 percent of U.S. paddlings. And that disparity grew wider in the 1990s. African-American students are expelled and suspended at a more equitable rate than they are spanked. "I think we've just got to come to our senses and stop this physical abuse," said Caylor, the state school board member who represents this area. "Are we so archaic in our thinking? Are we so barbaric that we can not understand the severity of this? "I'm going to take this forward to the state board, even if I get accused of being on some kind of crusade." At this point, if a parent objects to paddling, he or she can write a note to the school. Public school principals say they will honor requests to not paddle specific children. And likewise, when they receive the request to "try the paddle," they often honor that, too. "God says no discipline is pleasant when you receive it. But it's given in love to see change," said Robert Illman, the principal at Westminster Christian Academy. Paddling "is an appropriate and effective means in some cases. You don't want to carry an incomplete toolbag." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Return to Alabama Index Return to Table of Contents |
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South stands alone...
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in message .net...
It's no longer allowed in basic training. It's outlawed in mental hospitals and prisons. But if you attend school in Alabama, you'd better watch your backside. That's because Alabama is one of 23 states that still allows school principals to use corporal punishment. Throughout all U.S. public schools, more than one of every 10 licks lands in Alabama. During the 1998-99 school year, if you compare the number of paddlings to the number of students, Alabama whacked 6.3 percent of the student body. That's a batting average topped only by Mississippi and Arkansas. (snip) Writing from memory, not research, I believe Alabama is a place where corporal punishment is legal for teachers, but illegal for parents. This is the opposite of what is needed. Corporal punishment by parents is tempered by the parent's love for the child, and consequently is rarely abusive. Corporal punishment by strangers is untempered, and can be severely abusive. In any case, it is better than turning the kids into zombies with drugs. Robert T McQuaid Orangeville Ontario Canada Love does not come out of the barrel of a gun |
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South stands alone...
Robert T McQuaid wrote:
Writing from memory, not research, I believe Alabama is a place where corporal punishment is legal for teachers, but illegal for parents. You are mistaken. Nowhere in the US is corporal punishment by parents illegal. Every parent in the US may legally corporally punish their children. How severely they may corporally punish is determined by the individual state. In approximately 23 states, corporal punishment is legal in schools. Corporal punishment by parents is tempered by the parent's love for the child, and consequently is rarely abusive. Children have been hospitalized, been severely maimed, and even died in the name of parental love. Furthermore, why is physically assaulting a child not abusive, yet subjecting the same behavior on an adult always (in the US) considered physical assault and punishable by law? Hitting is abusive and hitting in the name of love is even worse. Corporal punishment by strangers is untempered, and can be severely abusive. In any case, it is better than turning the kids into zombies with drugs. Children who were corporally punished are significantly more likely to experience problems of substance abuse, depression, suicide, and are significanly more likely to abuse their own children than are children who were parenting without corporal punishment. Robert T McQuaid Orangeville Ontario Canada Love does not come out of the barrel of a gun Nor, Robert, does love come out of a hand hitting and hurting a child. |
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South stands alone...
LaVonne admits
Nowhere in the US is corporal punishment by parents illegal. Thanks, LaVonne, you are the first Anti-spank zealot to publicly admit that. But I don't see you speaking against anti-spank zealot caseworkers REMOVING kids because of spanking, whether CLOAKED as other things or not. Children have been hospitalized, been severely maimed, and even died in the name of parental love. But not by spanking. Changing the subject? Furthermore, why is physically assaulting a child not abusive, yet subjecting the same behavior on an adult always (in the US) considered physical assault and punishable by law? ALWAYS? (That absolutism gives you away!) You forgot about A. spanking fetishists and B. Officer descretion regarding prosecution Many assaults with no scratch or injury are dead ended at officers descretion. C. Football players or Jocks whacking butts on field D. Rough Play among kids or between kids and parents ("rough housing") Hitting is abusive and hitting in the name of love is even worse. Come on, LaVonne, the ultraleft NEW AGE Berkleyesque latent hippy stuff gets old after awhile doesn't it? Do you go out and protest High School football also? The more I read from you on this the more I'm convinced you ARE one of the people who won't be satisfied until we all live in a world covered by NERF foam, "for our own good". again.. Hitting is abusive and hitting in the name of love is even worse. But CHILD REMOVAL is harmless?? So they REMOVE KIDS?? Isn't this where the expert on early childhood development speaks up about the causes of reactive attachment disorder? Corporal punishment by strangers is untempered, and can be severely abusive. In any case, it is better than turning the kids into zombies with drugs. Children who were corporally punished are significantly more likely to experience problems of substance abuse, Are you counting Ritalen directed by a CPS agency? Tell us more about Minnesota's recent laws prohibiting CPS and schools ordering kids onto Ritalen, LaVonne! While you're at it, please explain how ALL THOSE doctors used to prescribe it whenever such orders come down. Ritalen and similar are endemic in Foster Care. When you write a course syllabus, do you omit this issue? depression, suicide, and are significanly more likely to abuse their own children than are children who were [parented]without corporal punishment. The US GAO study disproved the old "cycle of abuse" axiom which is still printed in just about every Social Work textbook. It's false. But it SOUNDS so good! Nor, Robert, does love come out of a hand hitting and hurting a child. Hitting AND hurting? They are only the same thing when you politicize. Patty Cake, Patty Cake, Bakers.. all hitting is abuse? |
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South stands alone...
"LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message ... You are mistaken. Nowhere in the US is corporal punishment by parents illegal. Every parent in the US may legally corporally punish their children. How severely they may corporally punish is determined by the individual state. In approximately 23 states, corporal punishment is legal in schools. Actually, LaVonne, YOU are mistaken. Here is Florida's statute on child abuse: 827.03. Abuse, aggravated abuse, and neglect of a child; penalties (1) "Child abuse" means: (a) Intentional infliction of physical or mental injury upon a child; (b) An intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child; or (c) Active encouragement of any person to commit an act that results or could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child. A person who knowingly or willfully abuses a child without causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As I sit here, facing a third degree felony charge for "causing fear" in my child (no injuries whatsoever -- no spanking, no hitting -- just FEAR, per the CPT doctor) I am here to tell you: Florida prosecutes these matters strongly. Lawyers laugh -- but I'm facing five years in prison for what ultimately is: I wouldn't let her go skating one night and put her in her bedroom physically to prevent her from leaving the house. I didn't hit her. I didn't spank her, I put the fear of Mom into her, and by God, Willie Meggs is determined to put me in prison. Tere |
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South stands alone...
On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:49:05 -0400, "madeupagin"
wrote: "LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message ... You are mistaken. Nowhere in the US is corporal punishment by parents illegal. Every parent in the US may legally corporally punish their children. How severely they may corporally punish is determined by the individual state. In approximately 23 states, corporal punishment is legal in schools. Actually, LaVonne, YOU are mistaken. Here is Florida's statute on child abuse: No, Tere, you are mistaken. This law does not say anything at all about spanking. What it does say is clear. 827.03. Abuse, aggravated abuse, and neglect of a child; penalties (1) "Child abuse" means: (a) Intentional infliction of physical or mental injury upon a child; According to spanking enthusiasts the physical and mental injury they inflict is excused by it being labeled "spanking." (b) An intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child; or Most spanking enthusiasts would loudly scream they meant no injury. Of course we know they are lying to themselves because they will then defend the use of pain as a teaching tool, and few would have the knowledge of body physiology (like a college trained sports specialist might) to determine how much pain is harmful or injurious. (c) Active encouragement of any person to commit an act that results or could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child. Guess that puts The Plant in some jeapordy. It defended the right of parents to have parishoners hang children up in church and beat them with objects as a form of discipline. A person who knowingly or willfully abuses a child without causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. This covers the mental harm bit. It doesn't excuse or make legal the act of "spanking" as so disingenuously and torturously redefined from "hitting" by spankers. As I sit here, facing a third degree felony charge for "causing fear" in my child (no injuries whatsoever -- no spanking, no hitting -- just FEAR, per the CPT doctor) You are minimizing the effect of "FEAR" and your apparently addictive attachment to it in parenting your child. The last sentence, "I put the fear of Mom into her," makes that abundantly clear. A childhood of parenting by fear methods usually results, as I've argued many times in this ng, often in a teen out of control. Hell, a preteen with some guts even. I wouldn't put up with coersion by fear for my safety from my wife to make me do what she wanted. Nor should she of me. I think a child that tells a parent to kiss off is in the same position. I am here to tell you: Florida prosecutes these matters strongly. Why does that cheer me up so? Lawyers laugh -- Of course they do because they know, sans any other charges or conditions of the "simple assault" you describe yourself doing, you aren't in as much trouble as you think. but I'm facing five years in prison Show us the statute your are being prosecuted under. Someone is trying to intimidate you and feeding you a line of crap and you are catastrophizing instead of getting down to work and finding out the truth and working on methods to save your ass. for what ultimately is: That is a minimizing and diversionary phrase. Tell us what actually happened before you run your sob story at us. I wouldn't let her go skating one night and put her in her bedroom physically to prevent her from leaving the house. It's that "what ultimate is" that suggests you are leaving out some juicy details you know you don't want examined in the light of day here. I didn't hit her. I didn't spank her, I put the fear of Mom into her, and by God, Willie Meggs is determined to put me in prison. I'm probably half again bigger than you. If I didn't like something you were doing and I "put the fear of" Kane "into" you, you could have me arrested and charged and put in jail for some time. In Georgia and every other State, domestic violence has been a "hot" issue. It has become a very political crime. Years ago, a police officer would inform the spouses to "cool it" and deal with their problems. However, as a society, we have less tolerance for any form of battery in the household. Therefore, the penalties can be severe and the state will probably press charges even if one spouse drops the charges against the other. Here's a nice definition of what you most likely did...correct me if I'm wrong. http://www.criminaldefenseadvice.com/battery.htm " Simple Assault - O.C.G.A. 16-5-20 There are two types of simple assault. Attempted battery (or attempt to commit violent injury) requires the state to prove that the defendant intended to commit a violent injury. Additionally, the State must show that the defendant's actions were a "substantial step" toward the commission of a battery. Whether or not the act is a substantial step is a question of fact. The second type of simple assault occurs when one person places another in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily injury. A mere threat of harm is not enough to prove assault. The Defendant must be able to carry out the threat. For example, a midget probably could not place Mike Tyson in fear of imminent bodily harm. The victim must reasonably believe that he is in danger of receiving immediate bodily injury. The maximum penalty is generally 12 months in jail and $1000 fine." If all you did was "simple assault" as above then you probably should beat the rap. I'll bet there's considerably more to this than you are posting. And by the way, nowhere in the law you quoted does it say it is illegal for parents to spank their children. In fact had you simply swatted her on the butt with your hand you no likely would not be facing the problems you are. I wonder what the child told the authorities after the incident in question. I wonder what you actually did do. Parenting by threat is on the way out, and none too soon. Parents that won't give it up voluntarily and put some energy into learning non-coercive parenting are on notice. Now jump up and down and scream a little for us. Tere Kane |
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South stands alone...
Greg Hanson wrote: LaVonne admits Nowhere in the US is corporal punishment by parents illegal. Thanks, LaVonne, you are the first Anti-spank zealot to publicly admit that. You're welcome, Greg. However, I have been on alt.parenting.spanking for 8 years or so, and have yet to see an antispanker on this ng claim that spanking by parents is illegal anywhere in the US. This has been a major theme over the years, as country after country bans spanking, yet the US continues to permit the practice. But I don't see you speaking against anti-spank zealot caseworkers REMOVING kids because of spanking, whether CLOAKED as other things or not. I haven't seen or experienced any examples of a case worker removing children because of spanking, unless the spanking crosses the line each US state defines as abuse. Children have been hospitalized, been severely maimed, and even died in the name of parental love. But not by spanking. Changing the subject? No Greg, I'm not changing the subject. Spanking is not clearly defined in the minds of many parents, and there are children who have been hospitalized, severly maimed and even died, not only in the name of parental love, but as a result of what some parents define as spanking. Furthermore, why is physically assaulting a child not abusive, yet subjecting the same behavior on an adult always (in the US) considered physical assault and punishable by law? ALWAYS? (That absolutism gives you away!) You forgot about A. spanking fetishists and B. Officer descretion regarding prosecution Many assaults with no scratch or injury are dead ended at officers descretion. C. Football players or Jocks whacking butts on field D. Rough Play among kids or between kids and parents ("rough housing") Any and all physical assault of an adult is punishable by law. All adults may choose to report the assault. If an adult is consenting, they may choose not to report. Children do not have this choice. They cannot report and they are legally assaultable. Hitting is abusive and hitting in the name of love is even worse. Come on, LaVonne, the ultraleft NEW AGE Berkleyesque latent hippy stuff gets old after awhile doesn't it? I hardly see this as "new age hippy stuff." It wasn't that long ago that you could assault your wife and be legally protected. This isn't "new age hippy stuff" -- this is common sense. If adults are legally protected from physical assault, powerless children should certainly be protected. Do you go out and protest High School football also? If a high school coach disciplines one of his/her team by hitting the team member, this may or may not be legal, depending upon the state the child is living in. I do not need to protest High School football. Corporal punishment is corporal punishment, Greg. The more I read from you on this the more I'm convinced you ARE one of the people who won't be satisfied until we all live in a world covered by NERF foam, "for our own good". I will not be satisfied until we provide every child the same protection from physical assault that you and I enjoy. Hitting is abusive and hitting in the name of love is even worse. But CHILD REMOVAL is harmless?? So they REMOVE KIDS?? Isn't this where the expert on early childhood development speaks up about the causes of reactive attachment disorder? I never advocated for removal for spanking. I advocate for a law that legally bans spanking and removes the ambiguity that parents and social workers experience. Unless the child appears to be in danger, this law would send a clear message to parents that spanking is illegal. Attached to this law would be resources to help parents raise their children in more productive ways. LaVonne |
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