What makes no-spank so unstable?

My parents didn't spank, and
I ,though biased, like to think we turned out fine. My last hubby,
Chris,
had a father who had several minor children, (I think ages 5-14 and 2
steps, 13 and 14 ) from Chris's new step mom, he not only spanked but
used other forms of corporal punishment. Including forced push-ups
(military style), pull-ups on a rod hung in a doorway, slapping, and
standing for hours. If my last hubby was an example of the results of
this sort of treatment ( lazy, lying, crack smoking, check forging
thief who I never heard say one nice thing about his dad) then no thank
you. I'll use time outs any day.
Jenny

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Opinions wrote:

Understanding no-spank is facilitated by realizing that the cockamamie
movement has nothing to do with children. That is why no-spanks can
never be persuaded. It doesn't matter how badly their children behave,
if they have any.

I have two children, and at 23 and 27, I look at them and am so glad I
never resorted to hitting in my disciplinary strategies. One has a full
time job, supports herself, and has her own apartment. The younger one
has a degree from Northwestern University and is working for a social
service agency. Both are successful adults. This is a case study for
the longitudinal outcomes of not spanking children.

You must have missed he 60-minutes piece on Tiger Woods. Do you wanna
guess if his parents used spanking on him? Or how about yourself?
How has you turned out? Do your parents spanked you? ;-)

Doan

On 11 Apr 2006, Bunny wrote:

My parents didn't spank, and
I ,though biased, like to think we turned out fine. My last hubby,
Chris,
had a father who had several minor children, (I think ages 5-14 and 2
steps, 13 and 14 ) from Chris's new step mom, he not only spanked but
used other forms of corporal punishment. Including forced push-ups
(military style), pull-ups on a rod hung in a doorway, slapping, and
standing for hours. If my last hubby was an example of the results of
this sort of treatment ( lazy, lying, crack smoking, check forging
thief who I never heard say one nice thing about his dad) then no thank
you. I'll use time outs any day.
Jenny

What matters is not spanking/non-spanking but the overall parenting style.
What you described above sound ver authoritarian! Baumrind described them
as: "They are obedience- and status-oriented, and expect their orders to be
obeyed without explanation". In her latest study, she found that:

"As you can see from Table 7, at all time periods, children from
Authoritative, and to a lesser extent Democratic, homes were competent and
well-adjusted (Baumrind, 1971,1991). In a preliminary analysis we asked,
Do these competent parents use the least physical punishment? The answer
is clearly "no" with their preschool children. Ninety percent(9 of 10) of
Authoritative couples at T1 had scores at or above the mean on the physical
punishment scale, and Authoritative or Democratic parents were not
disproportionately classified in the Green zone. Thus, the higher competence
and lesser maladjustment of the preschool children of the most effective
parents was not due to their being spanked infrequently.Parent types did
differ, however, by the likelihood that members would resort to overly
severe physical punishment. Thus families classified in the
Red zone were disproportionately either Authoritarian-Directive or
Rejecting/Neglecting (90% at T1,75% at T2, 83% at T3), and no Authoritative
parent at any time period fell into the Redzone, although one Democratic
parent did. Furthermore, both absolute and relative spanking frequency of
Authoritative couples decreased rapidly after Time 1 with only 40% at or
above the mean at T2, compared to 58% of all other parents, and by T3
with only 17% at or above the mean, compared to 42% of all other parents.
Thus by early adolescence, when we in common with other specialists
believe physical punishment to be developmentally inappropriate,
Authoritative and Democratic parents
weresignificantly less likely than other parents to use physical punishment.
Perhaps their firm enforcement policies throughout childhood were successful
in achieving a desirablelevel of behavioral compliance by adolescence."

Source:
Baumrind, D. (1991). The influence of parenting style on adolescent
competence and substance use. Journal of Early Adolescence, 11(1), 56-95.

Baumrind, D. (2001). Does causally relevant research support a blanket
injunction against disciplinary spanking by parents? 109th Annual
Convention of the American Psychological Association.

Doan

Bunny wrote:
My parents didn't spank, and
I ,though biased, like to think we turned out fine. My last hubby,
Chris,
had a father who had several minor children, (I think ages 5-14 and 2
steps, 13 and 14 ) from Chris's new step mom, he not only spanked but
used other forms of corporal punishment. Including forced push-ups
(military style), pull-ups on a rod hung in a doorway, slapping, and
standing for hours. If my last hubby was an example of the results of
this sort of treatment ( lazy, lying, crack smoking, check forging
thief who I never heard say one nice thing about his dad) then no thank
you. I'll use time outs any day.
Jenny

Oh dear, now you are in for it.

You'll be called a "sock" of myself, or LaVonne. Or a ant-spank zealoT.

Or worse by insinuation.

You'll be asked if you were brought up so well why did you pick such a
loser.

Anything to discredit what YOU know as fact.

The spanking contingent here have some things in common with your ex.
Notice?

Kane




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Doan wrote:
On 11 Apr 2006, Bunny wrote:

My parents didn't spank, and
I ,though biased, like to think we turned out fine. My last hubby,
Chris,
had a father who had several minor children, (I think ages 5-14 and 2
steps, 13 and 14 ) from Chris's new step mom, he not only spanked but
used other forms of corporal punishment. Including forced push-ups
(military style), pull-ups on a rod hung in a doorway, slapping, and
standing for hours. If my last hubby was an example of the results of
this sort of treatment ( lazy, lying, crack smoking, check forging
thief who I never heard say one nice thing about his dad) then no thank
you. I'll use time outs any day.
Jenny

What matters is not spanking/non-spanking but the overall parenting style.
What you described above sound ver authoritarian! Baumrind described them
as: "They are obedience- and status-oriented, and expect their orders to be
obeyed without explanation". In her latest study, she found that:

"As you can see from Table 7, at all time periods, children from
Authoritative, and to a lesser extent Democratic, homes were competent and
well-adjusted (Baumrind, 1971,1991). In a preliminary analysis we asked,
Do these competent parents use the least physical punishment? The answer
is clearly "no" with their preschool children. Ninety percent(9 of 10) of
Authoritative couples at T1 had scores at or above the mean on the physical
punishment scale, and Authoritative or Democratic parents were not
disproportionately classified in the Green zone. Thus, the higher competence
and lesser maladjustment of the preschool children of the most effective
parents was not due to their being spanked infrequently.Parent types did
differ, however, by the likelihood that members would resort to overly
severe physical punishment. Thus families classified in the
Red zone were disproportionately either Authoritarian-Directive or
Rejecting/Neglecting (90% at T1,75% at T2, 83% at T3), and no Authoritative
parent at any time period fell into the Redzone, although one Democratic
parent did. Furthermore, both absolute and relative spanking frequency of
Authoritative couples decreased rapidly after Time 1 with only 40% at or
above the mean at T2, compared to 58% of all other parents, and by T3
with only 17% at or above the mean, compared to 42% of all other parents.
Thus by early adolescence, when we in common with other specialists
believe physical punishment to be developmentally inappropriate,
Authoritative and Democratic parents
weresignificantly less likely than other parents to use physical punishment.
Perhaps their firm enforcement policies throughout childhood were successful
in achieving a desirablelevel of behavioral compliance by adolescence."

Source:
Baumrind, D. (1991). The influence of parenting style on adolescent
competence and substance use. Journal of Early Adolescence, 11(1), 56-95.

Baumrind, D. (2001). Does causally relevant research support a blanket
injunction against disciplinary spanking by parents? 109th Annual
Convention of the American Psychological Association.

Doan

Be warned, Bunny, Baumrind's first study above is very respectable by
standard protocols of social science research, but MUCH older than the
second study cited.

Notice the first one was published in a professional journal, thus
exposing it, before publication, to peer review.

The second was present to the 109th Annual Convention of the American
Psychological Association at Berkeley, and was a stunner.

It appeared to be a turnaround in the researchers views, and biased in
favor of the use of spanking.

Sadly, her sample was, for this kind of research, not only far too small
to be significant, and likely why she chose not to seek publication.

And the worst part? Even with her small sample size she proceeded to
remove from the target group those children whose parents spanked more
severely.

The very ones that would be most critical to examine the trend of
outcomes across a spectrum of spanking use.

What does that tell you about the ethics of this group that Doan would
quote her, but NOT admit to this serious fault in research methodology?

Doan has avoided any discussion of a more recent study over an
International population sample of the use of spanking where the
researchers found that despite cultural acceptance of CP there were
correlations with unwanted anti social and function outcomes in punished
children.

The claim here has always been that if it's an accepted practice the
child is more accepting of it and shows no negative outcomes. A crock of
course.

He claims he wants to debate it and that we aren't responding, but in
fact LaVonne posted it and I challenged him, and I'm waiting for
anything that resembles a challenge to the study.

He pretends that we are the ones not wanting to, while HE runs with his
tail between his legs.

Funny, no?

Kane

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Kane wrote:The claim here has always been that if it's an accepted
practice the
child is more accepting of it and shows no negative outcomes. A crock
of
course.
___________
I read, first in a woman's mag, (Elle?) about how young Indian girls
are forcefully "circumcised". Meaning they have there outter genitalia
sliced off, and their vagianal walls stitched partially shut. And that
many died from the blood loss or infections that resulted. And it
wasn't trained medical people doing this. It was said that relatives
(usually a domineered mother or grand mother) would hold the little
girl prone while her father did the mutilating. This I suppose was
accepted practice, yet I doubt any of the victims accepted it as normal
and moved on undamaged.
I can't control what someone else does to their kid. But mine is my
treasure and I will not use my size and age to an unfair advantage.The
last time I looked him in the eyes after I just yelled at him and
placed him bodily in a chair to wait for supper, broke my heart. Like
all trust had been dissolved. I would hate to think what a slap would
do.
Just my opinion.
Jenny

Does this also applied to "time-outs"?

AF

On 11 Apr 2006, Bunny wrote:

Kane wrote:The claim here has always been that if it's an accepted
practice the
child is more accepting of it and shows no negative outcomes. A crock
of
course.
___________
I read, first in a woman's mag, (Elle?) about how young Indian girls
are forcefully "circumcised". Meaning they have there outter genitalia
sliced off, and their vagianal walls stitched partially shut. And that
many died from the blood loss or infections that resulted. And it
wasn't trained medical people doing this. It was said that relatives
(usually a domineered mother or grand mother) would hold the little
girl prone while her father did the mutilating. This I suppose was
accepted practice, yet I doubt any of the victims accepted it as normal
and moved on undamaged.
I can't control what someone else does to their kid. But mine is my
treasure and I will not use my size and age to an unfair advantage.The
last time I looked him in the eyes after I just yelled at him and
placed him bodily in a chair to wait for supper, broke my heart. Like
all trust had been dissolved. I would hate to think what a slap would
do.
Just my opinion.
Jenny

Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne

"Greegor" wrote in message
oups.com...

Kane posted profuse and gratuitout profanity for
over a year in ascps on the world wide web.
Does this make him a role model?
An expert on behavior, qualified to advise others?

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne

Yes, LaVonne. I love to see the research where the non-cp alternatives
are shown to be better than spanking under the same statistical analysis.
Where in the "archives" can I find them? ;-) How about Straus &
Mouradian (1998) whe

"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they predicted
child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence to
conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are
counter-productive."

Doan

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne

Yes, LaVonne. I love to see the research where the non-cp alternatives
are shown to be better than spanking under the same statistical analysis.
Where in the "archives" can I find them? ;-) How about Straus &
Mouradian (1998) whe

Why don't you provide them?

"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they predicted
child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence to
conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are
counter-productive."

You see to want very badly to stay with old research when it suits you
and avoid it when it doesn't.

I've noticed that you avoided my invitation to discuss and debate the
International study findings of a correlation, regardless of cultural
norms, of decidedly undesirable outcomes for children.

Why?

Your thoughts on the study please.

Thank you.

Doan, spanking is a lost cause, and you and your cohort are just the
last pitiful gasp of out dated, outmoded, reactionary Neanderthal
non-thinkers.

You think you know how to raise children, but a quick look around the
world at spanked children and their antics makes plain you simply do not.

Quietly but smartly our children are taking over the world. Unspanked
people know what they are doing and do not have to wade through mental
minefields from their past to get the job done.

Doan


You and your kind are being replaced, Dancer.

R R R R R

0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin