What makes no-spank so unstable?

C. Wilkerson wrote:
"0:-" wrote in message
...
Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to
use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I
tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To
debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening
to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone
that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All
he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people
like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right
at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse
me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne
Yes, LaVonne. I love to see the research where the non-cp alternatives
are shown to be better than spanking under the same statistical analysis.
Where in the "archives" can I find them? ;-) How about Straus &
Mouradian (1998) whe
Why don't you provide them?
"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10
times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they
predicted
child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence
to
conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are
counter-productive."
You see to want very badly to stay with old research when it suits you and
avoid it when it doesn't.

I've noticed that you avoided my invitation to discuss and debate the
International study findings of a correlation, regardless of cultural
norms, of decidedly undesirable outcomes for children.

Why?

Because this 'new research' says nothing of the sort and debating
hysterical, abusive, clueless, no-spanks islike jerking off in
thewhorehouse.

Apparently, smirk you haven't read the research.

0:-






--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne

Yes, LaVonne. I love to see the research where the non-cp alternatives
are shown to be better than spanking under the same statistical analysis.
Where in the "archives" can I find them? ;-) How about Straus &
Mouradian (1998) whe

Why don't you provide them?

I can't provide something that doesn't exist! LaVonne is the one that
claimed to have posted them "numerous times". It's in the archives, she
said. Can you find them for me? ;-)


"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they predicted
child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence to
conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are
counter-productive."

You see to want very badly to stay with old research when it suits you
and avoid it when it doesn't.

You meant like the Embry Study? ;-)

I've noticed that you avoided my invitation to discuss and debate the
International study findings of a correlation, regardless of cultural
norms, of decidedly undesirable outcomes for children.

I've already answered you. Since LaVonne was the first one to offer, I am
waiting for her. IS SHE WANTED TO DEBATE ME? If she refused, like the
coward she is, I'll debate with you. Deal? ;p)

Why?

Your thoughts on the study please.

Thank you.

Doan, spanking is a lost cause, and you and your cohort are just the
last pitiful gasp of out dated, outmoded, reactionary Neanderthal
non-thinkers.

Hihihi! I know there are only a FEW BILLIONS of us left!

You think you know how to raise children, but a quick look around the
world at spanked children and their antics makes plain you simply do not.

Yup! Just look at all the great men in history! Were they spanked?
Are you still claiming that Einstein was never-spanked? ;-) Or how
about the Hutterites? Not a single homicide were your claim, right?

Quietly but smartly our children are taking over the world. Unspanked
people know what they are doing and do not have to wade through mental
minefields from their past to get the job done.

Hahaha! Where are these unspanked people? How are they taking over the
world?


Doan


You and your kind are being replaced, Dancer.

Hihihi! Talk about being delusional!

AFfromDreamLand

R R R R R

0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

How do we get from female circumcision to yelling at a child resulting
in a guilt trip for Mom in less than 200 words? It's easy. No-spank
has nothing to do with children. It's all about Mom. It gives Mom
something to brag about and gives her a feeling of superiority that,
for some women, seems akin to walking on water.

For someone who wants statistics, try sorting through the diabolical
mess created by single parenting. These kids have abysmal track
records. Drugs. Dropout. Promiscuity. Suicide. It's all there
regardless of where the statistics originate. The only "solution" to
date is pouring more and more tax dollars into the bottomless pit. Yet,
this is the parenting model foisted on the United States by the
feminist-dominated child welfare Schutzstaffel and their war on
spanking.

Bunny wrote:
Kane wrote:The claim here has always been that if it's an accepted
practice the
child is more accepting of it and shows no negative outcomes. A crock
of
course.
___________
I read, first in a woman's mag, (Elle?) about how young Indian girls
are forcefully "circumcised". Meaning they have there outter genitalia
sliced off, and their vagianal walls stitched partially shut. And that
many died from the blood loss or infections that resulted. And it
wasn't trained medical people doing this. It was said that relatives
(usually a domineered mother or grand mother) would hold the little
girl prone while her father did the mutilating. This I suppose was
accepted practice, yet I doubt any of the victims accepted it as normal
and moved on undamaged.
I can't control what someone else does to their kid. But mine is my
treasure and I will not use my size and age to an unfair advantage.The
last time I looked him in the eyes after I just yelled at him and
placed him bodily in a chair to wait for supper, broke my heart. Like
all trust had been dissolved. I would hate to think what a slap would
do.
Just my opinion.
Jenny

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne
Yes, LaVonne. I love to see the research where the non-cp alternatives
are shown to be better than spanking under the same statistical analysis.
Where in the "archives" can I find them? ;-) How about Straus &
Mouradian (1998) whe
Why don't you provide them?

I can't provide something that doesn't exist! LaVonne is the one that
claimed to have posted them "numerous times". It's in the archives, she
said. Can you find them for me? ;-)

"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they predicted
child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence to
conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are
counter-productive."
You see to want very badly to stay with old research when it suits you
and avoid it when it doesn't.

You meant like the Embry Study? ;-)

I've noticed that you avoided my invitation to discuss and debate the
International study findings of a correlation, regardless of cultural
norms, of decidedly undesirable outcomes for children.

I've already answered you. Since LaVonne was the first one to offer, I am
waiting for her. IS SHE WANTED TO DEBATE ME? If she refused, like the
coward she is, I'll debate with you. Deal? ;p)

Why are you asking me again? See right there two lines down?


Why?

Your thoughts on the study please.

Look up, sunshine. And know you are a cowardly liar, again weaseling
your way out of the truth.

0:-




Thank you.

Doan, spanking is a lost cause, and you and your cohort are just the
last pitiful gasp of out dated, outmoded, reactionary Neanderthal
non-thinkers.

Hihihi! I know there are only a FEW BILLIONS of us left!

You think you know how to raise children, but a quick look around the
world at spanked children and their antics makes plain you simply do not.

Yup! Just look at all the great men in history! Were they spanked?
Are you still claiming that Einstein was never-spanked? ;-) Or how
about the Hutterites? Not a single homicide were your claim, right?

Quietly but smartly our children are taking over the world. Unspanked
people know what they are doing and do not have to wade through mental
minefields from their past to get the job done.

Hahaha! Where are these unspanked people? How are they taking over the
world?

Doan

You and your kind are being replaced, Dancer.

Hihihi! Talk about being delusional!

AFfromDreamLand

R R R R R

0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Jeremy James wrote:
I no longer ever read anything he posts. Anyone with the audacity to use
that emoticon has no idea. I just skip over any of his postings. I tried
to debate with him when I first joined the group but you can't. To debate
means discussing and sharing your point of view and at least listening to
the other person's point, but Kane does not do that, he attacks anyone that
disagrees with him, dissects and criticizes everything they say. All he
really does is prove the point I made the other day, that for people like
Kane the debate has nothing to do with spanking, it's about being right at
all costs. Remember the old saying: "My mind is made so don't confuse me
with the facts."

Would you like some research that identifies the facts about spanking,
about child development, and about parenting practices?

You can access this through the archives or you can let me know.

LaVonne
Yes, LaVonne. I love to see the research where the non-cp alternatives
are shown to be better than spanking under the same statistical analysis.
Where in the "archives" can I find them? ;-) How about Straus &
Mouradian (1998) whe
Why don't you provide them?

I can't provide something that doesn't exist! LaVonne is the one that
claimed to have posted them "numerous times". It's in the archives, she
said. Can you find them for me? ;-)

"Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times
more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they predicted
child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence to
conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are
counter-productive."
You see to want very badly to stay with old research when it suits you
and avoid it when it doesn't.

You meant like the Embry Study? ;-)

I've noticed that you avoided my invitation to discuss and debate the
International study findings of a correlation, regardless of cultural
norms, of decidedly undesirable outcomes for children.

I've already answered you. Since LaVonne was the first one to offer, I am
waiting for her. IS SHE WANTED TO DEBATE ME? If she refused, like the
coward she is, I'll debate with you. Deal? ;p)

Why are you asking me again? See right there two lines down?


Why?

Your thoughts on the study please.

Look up, sunshine. And know you are a cowardly liar, again weaseling
your way out of the truth.

And the TRUTH is that YOU LIED!

AF

0:-




Thank you.

Doan, spanking is a lost cause, and you and your cohort are just the
last pitiful gasp of out dated, outmoded, reactionary Neanderthal
non-thinkers.

Hihihi! I know there are only a FEW BILLIONS of us left!

You think you know how to raise children, but a quick look around the
world at spanked children and their antics makes plain you simply do not.

Yup! Just look at all the great men in history! Were they spanked?
Are you still claiming that Einstein was never-spanked? ;-) Or how
about the Hutterites? Not a single homicide were your claim, right?

Quietly but smartly our children are taking over the world. Unspanked
people know what they are doing and do not have to wade through mental
minefields from their past to get the job done.

Hahaha! Where are these unspanked people? How are they taking over the
world?

Doan

You and your kind are being replaced, Dancer.

Hihihi! Talk about being delusional!

AFfromDreamLand

R R R R R

0:-




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

"How true it is. I can identify a spanked child every time. This is
the
child that either is aggressive and out of control, or the child who is

inappropriately withdrawn out of fear. Spanking does not lead to
socially competent children."

You do realize you are saying that spanked kids are either agressive or
wihdrawn. That covers about everyone except statues. No wonder you can
identify so many of them.

Your "great quote" is pretty nice to. It just says children do not
spoil. But it has to talk about vegetables, whereas spoiled children is
just another phrase word for indulged children not rotting children.
Not spanking is an irresponsible indulgance. My 2 cents says that non
spanking parents are needy parents, vs. spanking parents able to give
to the kids, who are the obvious needy ones. Non spanking is the parent
/ child relationship turned distressingly around.

By saying "as designed", I simply mean that the world as designed is a
hard place with unavoidable rewards and punishments. Your
"alternatives" to spanking are a recent phenomena, an interesting
experiment that I would not wish on my kids, but I will admit has taken
over popular culture. I really do think the tide is turning though in
favor of spanking's return. After all, it has only recently left, and
the results evident from the experiment are not nice to look at or live
with.

Doan wrote:
Hihihi! A perfect example of how a "never-spanked"
boy turned out!


I've had some experience with two
kids who were regularly spanked to
keep them in line. And when I became
their step-father, I was shocked to see
how often they ended up fighting with
each other and hurting each other.

I think that spanking may work as a
disciplinary measure. But it has some
undesirable side-effects. Spanking
teaches kids that violence is ok in their
relationships with others.

A boy who is spanked may grow up to
be a man who hits his wife once in a while.

The two boys who became my step-children
definitely needed disciplining. They were out
of control. And with the agreement of their
mother I disciplined them every time they
misbehaved by finding out what they did wrong
explaining it to them and telling them what the
punishment was for their misbehavior.

The usual punishment was turning off the TV
for a day and not allowing them to watch their
favorite programs or play video games. And/or
taking away their favorite toys for a specified
period of time.

This kind of disciplining worked after some time.
And the amount of violence between them
decreased to a minimum. They learned it so
well that a warning from me that they won't be
allowed to watch TV for a day was enough to
get them in line.

This kind of disciplining which involves
loss of desirable pleasures and benefits is exactly
what happens in relationships between adults.
If you don't behave well at work, then you may
loose your job and the nice shiny car you bought
on a loan from the bank.

If the man doesn't treat his wife well, then he may
loose his family in a divorce and end up paying
alimony and child-support for the family he no longer
has.

Kids are future adults. And I think that kids need
the kind of disciplining which will prepare them for
life in the adult world.

Perhaps spanking is easier and less trouble for
the parents. But it's not what's best for the kids.

On 13 Apr 2006, Nick wrote:

Doan wrote:
Hihihi! A perfect example of how a "never-spanked"
boy turned out!


I've had some experience with two
kids who were regularly spanked to
keep them in line. And when I became
their step-father, I was shocked to see
how often they ended up fighting with
each other and hurting each other.

I think that spanking may work as a
disciplinary measure. But it has some
undesirable side-effects. Spanking
teaches kids that violence is ok in their
relationships with others.

A boy who is spanked may grow up to
be a man who hits his wife once in a while.

The two boys who became my step-children
definitely needed disciplining. They were out
of control. And with the agreement of their
mother I disciplined them every time they
misbehaved by finding out what they did wrong
explaining it to them and telling them what the
punishment was for their misbehavior.

The usual punishment was turning off the TV
for a day and not allowing them to watch their
favorite programs or play video games. And/or
taking away their favorite toys for a specified
period of time.

This kind of disciplining worked after some time.
And the amount of violence between them
decreased to a minimum. They learned it so
well that a warning from me that they won't be
allowed to watch TV for a day was enough to
get them in line.

This kind of disciplining which involves
loss of desirable pleasures and benefits is exactly
what happens in relationships between adults.
If you don't behave well at work, then you may
loose your job and the nice shiny car you bought
on a loan from the bank.

If the man doesn't treat his wife well, then he may
loose his family in a divorce and end up paying
alimony and child-support for the family he no longer
has.

Kids are future adults. And I think that kids need
the kind of disciplining which will prepare them for
life in the adult world.

Perhaps spanking is easier and less trouble for
the parents. But it's not what's best for the kids.


Parenting is much more than spank/no-spank. I was spanked
and I have never gotten into a fight with my brothers at
all.

Each kid is different and a parent's job is to find what
works with their kids. It's great that you have found
what worked with yours. Spanking has been a tool for parents
for centuries. It has been used by parents, accross cultures,
races and religions. Like any tool, it can be used properly
or misused.

Doan

If yous had any real evidence you dinkheads wouldn't all have to tell the
same desperate lie. Sheesh.


"Nick" wrote in message
ups.com...
Doan wrote:
Hihihi! A perfect example of how a "never-spanked"
boy turned out!


I've had some experience with two
kids who were regularly spanked to
keep them in line. And when I became
their step-father, I was shocked to see
how often they ended up fighting with
each other and hurting each other.

Theres no coralation between kids fighting and spanking except for idiots
and zealots.


I think that spanking may work as a
disciplinary measure. But it has some
undesirable side-effects. Spanking
teaches kids that violence is ok in their
relationships with others.

Only if their parents are braindead. Discipline is not violence and the
parent/child relationship is not the same as a childs relationship withy
others.


A boy who is spanked may grow up to
be a man who hits his wife once in a while.

And a boy who's not spanked may grow up to be a bully and an asshole who
hangs in bars and eats cigarette butts on Fridays.

But spanking or not spanking has nothing to do with either.

Take a look around at the little misbehaved clueless fatsos who believe the
universe revolves around them. Most of 'em can't even fit in car seats for
cripes sakes.. That's what happens when it's all about the parents being
'right' - the kids be damned.

snip long delusional rant about how not spanking magically makes kids
non-violent

wrote:
"How true it is. I can identify a spanked child every time. This is
the
child that either is aggressive and out of control, or the child who is

inappropriately withdrawn out of fear. Spanking does not lead to
socially competent children."

You do realize you are saying that spanked kids are either agressive or
wihdrawn. That covers about everyone except statues. No wonder you can
identify so many of them.

No, you presume there are no OTHER behaviors. Some children can fake it
for a time. I can spot children that are spanked by how they play and
interact with other children. It's not hard when you've seen the results
in a clinical setting.

Your "great quote" is pretty nice to.

What quote?

It just says children do not
spoil. But it has to talk about vegetables, whereas spoiled children is
just another phrase word for indulged children not rotting children.

What is an indulged child? When not assaulted? What makes you think that
unspanked children are routinely "indulged?"

Not spanking is an irresponsible indulgance.

Really? How so.

My 2 cents says that non
spanking parents are needy parents, vs. spanking parents able to give
to the kids, who are the obvious needy ones. Non spanking is the parent
/ child relationship turned distressingly around.

No it isn't. Where do you get the idea that parents that don't spank
have no other authority and control?

By saying "as designed", I simply mean that the world as designed is a
hard place with unavoidable rewards and punishments.

Yep. You been spanked for discipline lately?

Your
"alternatives" to spanking are a recent phenomena, an interesting
experiment that I would not wish on my kids, but I will admit has taken
over popular culture.

Recent? My understanding is that there has always been parents that did
not and do not spanking. Some American native tribes have NEVER used
spanking in all their known history.

I really do think the tide is turning though in
favor of spanking's return.

All you are seeing is reactionary efforts by a few. The world is moving
away from spanking and other forms of CP for child rearing.

After all, it has only recently left, and
the results evident from the experiment are not nice to look at or live
with.

You are pontificating. Do you have any proof of your claims?

0:-


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin