A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » alt.parenting » Spanking
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

In Sunday's paper



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 3rd 04, 07:30 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In Sunday's paper

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:33 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

Because at heart, basically, you are more honest. And it would

stick
in your craw to try and pull the little prank he just did with his
logical fallacy nonsense.

There is no comparison between gum chewing and cp as correlational
variants.


Hi, Kane!

There is no comparison between gum chewing and cp. None. There

were, in
the example, correlations between gum chewing and prisonners and
correlations between cp and prison. Correlation does not equal

causation.

Yes, you are correct. There IS not connection between gum chewing and
cp, and that is why the analogy used by bobber the swift is empty and
pointless when talking about cp.

Striking a child, or otherwise deliberately causing pain, however,
shows strong correlation in numerous studies historically.
"Correlation" isn't a small concept, nor a so limited that it can be
compared to highly disimilar things to support rejection of a theory
as probable.

In fact "correlations" are what often direct attention and effort to
finally finding causation. And it is already used in science,
including health research, to operate parts of infrastructure of
entire nations and continents. We do not, for instance, KNOW with
absolute certainty why heavy traffice, with no barriers to forward
movement, show a wave pattern, other than people speed up and slow
down ....because we have NOT discovered why they do that....

But to overcome that traffic tieup in rush hour engineers have worked
for years, with some success, and still offer possible solutions for
the near future. ...and we still can't say precisely why people do not
or cannot maintain a steady speed between them and proceed without
slight changes in speed.

There IS however, a clear correlation between the wave pattern and
human behavior.

In health it seems we have massive amounts of health treatment based
on correlations. We KNOW that something works to eleviate ailments,
but just when we thought we knew WHY and how it does, damned if we
don't come up with something new that tells us differently than we
thought.

Yet we go on and we USE those correlations ... sometimes even thinking
they have been linked causally.

I'm confident, from the research, and from my own observations and
that of hundreds of others that share my experience with children and
youth in threatment and encarceration settings that there IS in fact a
strong enough correlation between CP and criminality and other anti
social behaviors to make policy and create and deliver treatment
plans. .based on non-punitive methods, so as to remove that component
from the child's life.

And it works very well indeed. I'm published on the subject, and have
trained on it. Thousands of practitioners, in fact...some of which
seem to qualify under your term, "jacklegs."

Interestingly they report, and it's been observed, or I would NOT
have gone forward with what I was teaching and applying in clinical
settings, to be very successful.

One has NO violence attached to it, and the other decidely does.
He conned you.


Violence would have to be connected for an attempt to make a causal
connection, it is not at all required to make a correlation.


I have seen many children raised without punitive methods of any kind.
They are universally not violent.

You tricked yourself in your own dishonesty, Kane.


Oh. How's that shoe on your other foot?

Do you know the difference between causation and correlation?


Yes. Quite precisely.

And correlations are commonly used for many decision making instances
as well as for actions. You use them all the live long day. And in
fact you CITE them in your postings.

Much of the data your report has NO causal connections researched, but
there they are, printed in federally supplied sources. And you quote
them for your purposes.

You, Douggie, are a child when it comes to debate. No depth. No beef.
In fact nothing more than a fairly well trained, but not good enough,
propagandist.

If you can provide a causal connection between 8 times more likely and
foster parents vs bio parents, please do. We'll wait.

I tried to help you get your thinking straight.


LOL.


I know. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it. Interesting how
quick you are to respond to that lighthearted comment of mine, but how
frequently you avoid answering the tough questions I pose for you. I
notice you do it with Ron as well.

Most folks are afraid to debate you, but not because of your "facts."
Simply your skil with propaganda output.

Someday you'll figure out just who IS more intested in you, the
person, and you the devoted and easily tamed and directed lackey.

One of us is concerned and honest enough, and regards you highly
enough NOT to lie to you, con you, or otherwise attempt to appeal

to
you through your vulnerabilities...your strong biases.

Wanna guess who is who?

Think of me as your old drill sargent.

Doug went for one of the oldest of debating logical fallacies...the
strawman. We an agree that a correlation between criminality and
chewing gum is ridiculous, ergo, then a correlation between CP and
criminally must also be ridiculous.


A correlation between those imprisoned and chewing gum is not at all
ridiculous.


I'll leave that up to the reader to decide for themselves...and to
contemplate why you would make such a statement.

To suggest that chewing gum CAUSE people to go to prison would
be ridiculous.


Yes. You have made my point exactly. Couldn't have done better myself.

A correlation between cp and people imprisoned is not
ridiculous.


Yep...just as I said. However, the comparison offered by bobber was
that it was the same correlation, for analogy, as chewing gum.

You are doing a wonderful job of pointing out my accuracy and bobber's
mistake.

To suggest one causes the other is conjecture open to
controversy.


Was there anything in my statement that would lead you or others to
believe I though there was incontrovertable proof of causation?

I seem to see again and again in my reply to you and to bobber, the
point that correlation is NOT be to lightly thrown away if there are
consistent points of similarity in two issues being linked for
consideration.

Gum chewing is NOT violent. Spanking IS violent, as is all CP, and as
is coersion of any sort...even the law, when using violence to punish
offenders does not deny the pain involved.

Correlation is not causation.


I asked you recently, a series of questions, that I have not found
your answer to as yet...I'll keep watching.

My reason for asking is to establish for myself something about your
set of biases...we all have them, no offense intended. And to be able
to better understand your approach to the issues we discuss here.

It's not a search for personality flaws, though they might well
arrise. It's a search for the filters you use to develop and deliver
your arguments so I might better understand them.

Your assumption, or the assumption you appear to want to sell, is that
CP and criminality are unlikely to have any causal connection because
when comparing to gum chewing and criminality there is such a huge gap
in any possible connections (but of course THAT has never been proven
either....R RR RR ...Wrigelys anyone?).

Again and again I have posted the fact, easily seen in the world
around us, that correlations may not be proven as causation, but that
does not stop us from making excellent use of them for practical
purposes.

Since we cannot do a full bore scientifically disciplined study on the
effects of CP (it would be unethical to dissect a human child as it
would be to deliberately subject them to CP soley for research) we
will likely NEVER have the cause and effect scientifically
connected...thought the brain study researchers are coming damn close.

We do, however, have animal studies of the outcomes of the use of pain
in teaching. And, Douggie, it doesn't look good for you and bobber the
swift.

For instance in doing a google on "+pain +punishment +learning
+teach" these results were produced. These of course are mostly the
folks worthing with "correlations." However in a seach on "+pain
+punishment +learning +teach +brain" (notice the addition of "+brain"
to the string) much more rigorous studies, directly on human beings in
settings where they could be closely monitored, and some of the
behaviors were quite typical of children at various stages of
development. And some had NO connection to brain injury...just
something behavorially learned that needed redirection.

Oh, and considering I've posted in this same manner before so many
times, would you mind apologizing for your rude suggestion that I do
not provide facts and sources, you ****ing little asshole?

If your memory is slipping, check in with bobber the swift. He rarely
gets a post from me without such citations and sources.

http://www.amhb.ab.ca/programs/pdfs/... arch%2025.pdf

And just as a jolly aside, I though that folks might like to gain a
bit of insight into the problems faced by some of our less swift,
Vegetative, and immobile contributors to this ng:

http://www.arrowsmithschool.org/descriptions19.htm

Arrowsmith, by the way, is one of the commercial enterprises...a
private school and treatment center, that uses the nonpunitive methods
I espouse. In fact, they know me.

You might enjoy reading a bit more of their "jackleg" website.

A perfect ploy to capture the incredulous, such as you. And appeal

to
your biases and continue to control your views and your thinking.


"90% of those who committed suicide last year had consumed a meal at
McDonalds at some time in their life."


The factors that are commonly connected with suicide are not present,
as far as I know, in Big Macs. The factors ARE however in other life
experiences that lead to suicide, in correlation, but not proven in
causation....yet we have a very successful, and would it was MORE
successful, but we cannot premortum live humans, suicide prevention
program based on "correlations" of factors that are addressed by
hotline operators, mental health "jacklegs" and similar folks and
programs.

A McDonalds meal and suicide is correlated. But one did not cause

the
other.


No. You are running headon into a wall there, ducky. The kind of
correlations are not relevant if there is no similarity, for
comparison, to the other set you are examining.

Now if you were trying to prove that it's only a non-related
correlation that a death in the family and suicide of another member
were the same as the correlation between a Big Mac and suicide, you'd
have flattened me should I argue that Big Macs are causal.

Or any of these life experiences: loss of a job; divorce; being
exposed publically as dishonest; banned and similar.

These would ONLY be seen as correlations in any consideration of
whether or not there is a stong correlation and a higher likelihood of
suicide in the victims.

And in fact those are just the kinds of things listed as questions on
an admission form to treatment at a hospital with a psych unit. I
know. I've helped build those forms.

Correlation is not causation.


Yes, oh fundy one, but there are factors in events and following
events that cannot be that easily dismissed. Your black and white
thinking defies reality.

You are hereby forbidden to drive your car, because it's operation
relies on a number of correlations that no exact cause has been proven
for.

And if you should have enough losses in your life to qualify, by
condition, for help from a mental health practitioner, say a
psychiatrist, you are excused. There is only correlation between the
factors I listed above, and suicidal ideation and action.

And I will still continue to advocate for a discontinuation of CP in
child rearing, and incorporation of gentle parenting methods, using
the correlation I see in criminals in prisons and their life
experience of most having suffered CP as a child.

And I doubt if I'll ask them if they drank milk,, or chewed gum. 0;-

By the way, most humans spanked as children do not grow up to be
criminals...well, not caught anyway....but we still have a problem in
a country that, unlike 20 or so others, has not done away with
spanking of children...or haven't you noticed the numbers on prison
populations in our country?

And a bit of violent crime? I like to think about the possible
correclations between our enjoying a steady reduction in violent crime
over the past 10 or so years, as more and more families stop using CP
and those children are aging into the teen, youth, and young adult
population. Arguments on this issue hardly matter, compared to that
fact.

Doug


Debating you folks is strongly correlated with shooting fish in a
barrel. Nothing scientific, mind you, just my notion..

But you might consider the strong possibility of a causal connection
of my shooting with your apparent and blatantly displayed stupidity. I
just cannot resist sometimes.

R R R R R R R R

Kane
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Choice for Men Position Paper Delete the D Child Support 0 July 22nd 04 10:55 AM
Flipchart paper [email protected] General 0 December 25th 03 06:01 PM
Choice for Men Position Paper Delete the D Child Support 0 December 22nd 03 11:55 AM
paper diapers that don't leak? zeldabee Breastfeeding 31 November 1st 03 04:28 PM
Helping Your Child Be Healthy and Fit sX3#;WA@'U John Smith Kids Health 0 July 20th 03 04:50 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.