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In Sunday's paper
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:33 -0400, "Doug" wrote:
Kane writes: Because at heart, basically, you are more honest. And it would stick in your craw to try and pull the little prank he just did with his logical fallacy nonsense. There is no comparison between gum chewing and cp as correlational variants. Hi, Kane! There is no comparison between gum chewing and cp. None. There were, in the example, correlations between gum chewing and prisonners and correlations between cp and prison. Correlation does not equal causation. Yes, you are correct. There IS not connection between gum chewing and cp, and that is why the analogy used by bobber the swift is empty and pointless when talking about cp. Striking a child, or otherwise deliberately causing pain, however, shows strong correlation in numerous studies historically. "Correlation" isn't a small concept, nor a so limited that it can be compared to highly disimilar things to support rejection of a theory as probable. In fact "correlations" are what often direct attention and effort to finally finding causation. And it is already used in science, including health research, to operate parts of infrastructure of entire nations and continents. We do not, for instance, KNOW with absolute certainty why heavy traffice, with no barriers to forward movement, show a wave pattern, other than people speed up and slow down ....because we have NOT discovered why they do that.... But to overcome that traffic tieup in rush hour engineers have worked for years, with some success, and still offer possible solutions for the near future. ...and we still can't say precisely why people do not or cannot maintain a steady speed between them and proceed without slight changes in speed. There IS however, a clear correlation between the wave pattern and human behavior. In health it seems we have massive amounts of health treatment based on correlations. We KNOW that something works to eleviate ailments, but just when we thought we knew WHY and how it does, damned if we don't come up with something new that tells us differently than we thought. Yet we go on and we USE those correlations ... sometimes even thinking they have been linked causally. I'm confident, from the research, and from my own observations and that of hundreds of others that share my experience with children and youth in threatment and encarceration settings that there IS in fact a strong enough correlation between CP and criminality and other anti social behaviors to make policy and create and deliver treatment plans. .based on non-punitive methods, so as to remove that component from the child's life. And it works very well indeed. I'm published on the subject, and have trained on it. Thousands of practitioners, in fact...some of which seem to qualify under your term, "jacklegs." Interestingly they report, and it's been observed, or I would NOT have gone forward with what I was teaching and applying in clinical settings, to be very successful. One has NO violence attached to it, and the other decidely does. He conned you. Violence would have to be connected for an attempt to make a causal connection, it is not at all required to make a correlation. I have seen many children raised without punitive methods of any kind. They are universally not violent. You tricked yourself in your own dishonesty, Kane. Oh. How's that shoe on your other foot? Do you know the difference between causation and correlation? Yes. Quite precisely. And correlations are commonly used for many decision making instances as well as for actions. You use them all the live long day. And in fact you CITE them in your postings. Much of the data your report has NO causal connections researched, but there they are, printed in federally supplied sources. And you quote them for your purposes. You, Douggie, are a child when it comes to debate. No depth. No beef. In fact nothing more than a fairly well trained, but not good enough, propagandist. If you can provide a causal connection between 8 times more likely and foster parents vs bio parents, please do. We'll wait. I tried to help you get your thinking straight. LOL. I know. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it. Interesting how quick you are to respond to that lighthearted comment of mine, but how frequently you avoid answering the tough questions I pose for you. I notice you do it with Ron as well. Most folks are afraid to debate you, but not because of your "facts." Simply your skil with propaganda output. Someday you'll figure out just who IS more intested in you, the person, and you the devoted and easily tamed and directed lackey. One of us is concerned and honest enough, and regards you highly enough NOT to lie to you, con you, or otherwise attempt to appeal to you through your vulnerabilities...your strong biases. Wanna guess who is who? Think of me as your old drill sargent. Doug went for one of the oldest of debating logical fallacies...the strawman. We an agree that a correlation between criminality and chewing gum is ridiculous, ergo, then a correlation between CP and criminally must also be ridiculous. A correlation between those imprisoned and chewing gum is not at all ridiculous. I'll leave that up to the reader to decide for themselves...and to contemplate why you would make such a statement. To suggest that chewing gum CAUSE people to go to prison would be ridiculous. Yes. You have made my point exactly. Couldn't have done better myself. A correlation between cp and people imprisoned is not ridiculous. Yep...just as I said. However, the comparison offered by bobber was that it was the same correlation, for analogy, as chewing gum. You are doing a wonderful job of pointing out my accuracy and bobber's mistake. To suggest one causes the other is conjecture open to controversy. Was there anything in my statement that would lead you or others to believe I though there was incontrovertable proof of causation? I seem to see again and again in my reply to you and to bobber, the point that correlation is NOT be to lightly thrown away if there are consistent points of similarity in two issues being linked for consideration. Gum chewing is NOT violent. Spanking IS violent, as is all CP, and as is coersion of any sort...even the law, when using violence to punish offenders does not deny the pain involved. Correlation is not causation. I asked you recently, a series of questions, that I have not found your answer to as yet...I'll keep watching. My reason for asking is to establish for myself something about your set of biases...we all have them, no offense intended. And to be able to better understand your approach to the issues we discuss here. It's not a search for personality flaws, though they might well arrise. It's a search for the filters you use to develop and deliver your arguments so I might better understand them. Your assumption, or the assumption you appear to want to sell, is that CP and criminality are unlikely to have any causal connection because when comparing to gum chewing and criminality there is such a huge gap in any possible connections (but of course THAT has never been proven either....R RR RR ...Wrigelys anyone?). Again and again I have posted the fact, easily seen in the world around us, that correlations may not be proven as causation, but that does not stop us from making excellent use of them for practical purposes. Since we cannot do a full bore scientifically disciplined study on the effects of CP (it would be unethical to dissect a human child as it would be to deliberately subject them to CP soley for research) we will likely NEVER have the cause and effect scientifically connected...thought the brain study researchers are coming damn close. We do, however, have animal studies of the outcomes of the use of pain in teaching. And, Douggie, it doesn't look good for you and bobber the swift. For instance in doing a google on "+pain +punishment +learning +teach" these results were produced. These of course are mostly the folks worthing with "correlations." However in a seach on "+pain +punishment +learning +teach +brain" (notice the addition of "+brain" to the string) much more rigorous studies, directly on human beings in settings where they could be closely monitored, and some of the behaviors were quite typical of children at various stages of development. And some had NO connection to brain injury...just something behavorially learned that needed redirection. Oh, and considering I've posted in this same manner before so many times, would you mind apologizing for your rude suggestion that I do not provide facts and sources, you ****ing little asshole? If your memory is slipping, check in with bobber the swift. He rarely gets a post from me without such citations and sources. http://www.amhb.ab.ca/programs/pdfs/... arch%2025.pdf And just as a jolly aside, I though that folks might like to gain a bit of insight into the problems faced by some of our less swift, Vegetative, and immobile contributors to this ng: http://www.arrowsmithschool.org/descriptions19.htm Arrowsmith, by the way, is one of the commercial enterprises...a private school and treatment center, that uses the nonpunitive methods I espouse. In fact, they know me. You might enjoy reading a bit more of their "jackleg" website. A perfect ploy to capture the incredulous, such as you. And appeal to your biases and continue to control your views and your thinking. "90% of those who committed suicide last year had consumed a meal at McDonalds at some time in their life." The factors that are commonly connected with suicide are not present, as far as I know, in Big Macs. The factors ARE however in other life experiences that lead to suicide, in correlation, but not proven in causation....yet we have a very successful, and would it was MORE successful, but we cannot premortum live humans, suicide prevention program based on "correlations" of factors that are addressed by hotline operators, mental health "jacklegs" and similar folks and programs. A McDonalds meal and suicide is correlated. But one did not cause the other. No. You are running headon into a wall there, ducky. The kind of correlations are not relevant if there is no similarity, for comparison, to the other set you are examining. Now if you were trying to prove that it's only a non-related correlation that a death in the family and suicide of another member were the same as the correlation between a Big Mac and suicide, you'd have flattened me should I argue that Big Macs are causal. Or any of these life experiences: loss of a job; divorce; being exposed publically as dishonest; banned and similar. These would ONLY be seen as correlations in any consideration of whether or not there is a stong correlation and a higher likelihood of suicide in the victims. And in fact those are just the kinds of things listed as questions on an admission form to treatment at a hospital with a psych unit. I know. I've helped build those forms. Correlation is not causation. Yes, oh fundy one, but there are factors in events and following events that cannot be that easily dismissed. Your black and white thinking defies reality. You are hereby forbidden to drive your car, because it's operation relies on a number of correlations that no exact cause has been proven for. And if you should have enough losses in your life to qualify, by condition, for help from a mental health practitioner, say a psychiatrist, you are excused. There is only correlation between the factors I listed above, and suicidal ideation and action. And I will still continue to advocate for a discontinuation of CP in child rearing, and incorporation of gentle parenting methods, using the correlation I see in criminals in prisons and their life experience of most having suffered CP as a child. And I doubt if I'll ask them if they drank milk,, or chewed gum. 0;- By the way, most humans spanked as children do not grow up to be criminals...well, not caught anyway....but we still have a problem in a country that, unlike 20 or so others, has not done away with spanking of children...or haven't you noticed the numbers on prison populations in our country? And a bit of violent crime? I like to think about the possible correclations between our enjoying a steady reduction in violent crime over the past 10 or so years, as more and more families stop using CP and those children are aging into the teen, youth, and young adult population. Arguments on this issue hardly matter, compared to that fact. Doug Debating you folks is strongly correlated with shooting fish in a barrel. Nothing scientific, mind you, just my notion.. But you might consider the strong possibility of a causal connection of my shooting with your apparent and blatantly displayed stupidity. I just cannot resist sometimes. R R R R R R R R Kane |
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