Choices women make

Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

In article , Beverly says...

Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

====
Nice post, Beverly. Thanks for taking the time.
====

Just a thought!!

Why are single women (who decided on adoption withouth the fathers
knowledge)not required to pay child support for the next 18 years when they
give children up for adoption?

Why are Bill and Julie who are 16 and not ready to be parents not required
to both pay child support?

"Beverly" wrote in message
...
Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

This post bothered me when I read it.. it seemed insulting to me... I showed
it to my husband, who was angered by it. He too found it insulting. It
suggests that fathers are irresponsible and unimportant and should never be
counted on, or trusted by either their wives or children. Neither of us
believe that to be true and find your sentiments misguided.


"Gini" wrote in message
...
In article , Beverly says...

Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

====
Nice post, Beverly. Thanks for taking the time.
====

In article L61Ed.25933$Q%4.16107@fed1read06, Andi says...

This post bothered me when I read it.. it seemed insulting to me... I showed
it to my husband, who was angered by it. He too found it insulting. It
suggests that fathers are irresponsible and unimportant and should never be
counted on, or trusted by either their wives or children. Neither of us
believe that to be true and find your sentiments misguided.
=====
I think you went a little far afield with your interpretation.
=====


"Gini" wrote in message
...
In article , Beverly says...

Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

====
Nice post, Beverly. Thanks for taking the time.
====

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:00:20 -0700, "Andi" wrote:

This post bothered me when I read it.. it seemed insulting to me... I showed
it to my husband, who was angered by it. He too found it insulting. It
suggests that fathers are irresponsible and unimportant and should never be
counted on, or trusted by either their wives or children. Neither of us
believe that to be true and find your sentiments misguided.

I never meant to suggest that fathers were irresponsible and
unimportant. In fact, I believe I said that a child has two parents,
neither of which is more important than the other.

My point was that women should strive to be as self-reliant as their
husbands are. This is not only in case there is a divorce, but as a
measure to ensure the ability to provide for children she chooses to
have in such cases as being widowed or having a husband who becomes
totally disabled and unable to work as well. I am also of the belief
that men should strive to be as involved in their children's lives as
possible... as a CO-primary caregiver. I believe men and women can be
EQUAL partners and EQUAL parents. Making a choice for something often
involves making a choice against something else. Just as a woman who
chooses to be the primary caregiver and rely solely on the financial
support of her husband can find herself in financial trouble should
she ever become a single parent, a man who makes the choice to "leave
the parenting to Mom" while working extra hours to make a living to
support the family can find himself in a house full of strangers
should he ever become a single parent. Finding the BALANCE between
having children, raising them, and supporting them is an equal
opportunity endeavor.

And this balance is so absolutely necessary if a family should split.
Not only does each party need to be able to provide a home where
children can stay, but each parent needs enough of a relationship with
their children to make visitation as emotionally benign to the
children as possible. Unfortunately, this includes having parents
with essentially the same living conditions as each other, albeit both
would be a bit more lean than when they were together.

Child support awards that attempt to keep the custodial parent's home
running as comfortably as it was before are unrealistic... since the
same income must now cover an additional residence. Doing so
impoverishes the non-custodial parent (most often the man), especially
if the custodial parent (most often the woman) has no job skills and
can earn only a fraction of what her former husband could.

I'm sorry if you felt I was degrading men. I love my husband and
trust him implicitly, but I am also very happy to know that my
children and I could financially survive without him should we ever
need to. I'm thrilled that my children never know when their father
(my ex) does not pay child support -AND- that I don't have to ask my
current husband to pick up the slack. I'm extremely pleased that my
second marriage was one based in love and not in need. Had I not been
self-reliant when we met, I might always wonder.

Beverly



"Gini" wrote in message
...
In article , Beverly says...

Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

====
Nice post, Beverly. Thanks for taking the time.
====

Perhaps if the previous scenario where true and people who give children up
for adoption where required to pay child support, "greedy custodial
parents", may not fight quite so hard to keep children from their x-spouse
if they could "ADOPT INCOME" !!!!!!!

For the record, actually to prevent some of the bashing I am about to
receive..
Greedy custodial parents are not those whose children:
1. Have been abandoned by their other parent.
2. Are or have been truly mentally or physically abused by the
non-custodial parent.
3. have a willing NON CUSTODIAL parent.

A greedy custodial parent is one who knows and fights to maintain the
percentage of overnight stays below the number which reduces child support
in order to preserve his or her income. Which in turn makes them a stupid
greedy custodial parent, because a shared custody situation does not reduce
child support payment by 50% but more like 30%. the 20% difference would be
the hidden alimony. Therefore the stupid greedy custodial parent would
profit most from shared custody.


"SCREWEDBYJUDGEGEORGETOOKIEJAMES" wrote in
message ...
Just a thought!!

Why are single women (who decided on adoption withouth the fathers
knowledge)not required to pay child support for the next 18 years when
they
give children up for adoption?

Why are Bill and Julie who are 16 and not ready to be parents not required
to both pay child support?

"Beverly" wrote in message
...
Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

I'm not sure what the point of the following message is. The central
question in these matters is not DO women have all the post-conception
reproductive choices (abortion, giving up newborns at places like hospitals
with no questions asked, adoption, keeping the children). The question is
SHOULD women have all these choices, and be able to impose the costs of
their choices on men who have no option other than to accept whatever
unilateral decision the woman makes?

And what does it mean to say that "men have little/no rights in these
choices, so women must be wise when making them?" Women can do what they
want, under the laws that prevail in the U.S. at the present time. They
might have to make "wise" choices if they had to bear the financial and
other consequences of their unilateral decisions. However, since they are
able to shift much of the cost of their unilateral choices to men, they
don't have to worry.


"Beverly" wrote in message
...
Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
I'm not sure what the point of the following message is. The central
question in these matters is not DO women have all the post-conception
reproductive choices (abortion, giving up newborns at places like
hospitals
with no questions asked, adoption, keeping the children). The question is
SHOULD women have all these choices, and be able to impose the costs of
their choices on men who have no option other than to accept whatever
unilateral decision the woman makes?

And what does it mean to say that "men have little/no rights in these
choices, so women must be wise when making them?" Women can do what they
want, under the laws that prevail in the U.S. at the present time. They
might have to make "wise" choices if they had to bear the financial and
other consequences of their unilateral decisions. However, since they are
able to shift much of the cost of their unilateral choices to men, they
don't have to worry.

Unfortunately it is not just men who bear the cost of women's choices
regarding children. The Federal and state governments have interceded on
behalf of women as a "substitute husband". The government replaces the
father as the family protector, takes on the role of economic provider, and
wields its clout to obligate tax payers and fathers into financing women's
choices. The irony, of course, is women who choose child rearing
independence actually become heavily dependent on government for financial
security, healthcare benefits, daycare support, job training, equality of
pay, affirmative action hiring programs, etc.

The woman who once had only one choice, i.e. relying on a man for child
rearing economic security, ends up with three choices for economic
security - career, the child's father, and government. The long list of
programs available only to women provide powerful incentives that motivate
women to make the choices they make. Characterizing those choices as "wise"
is laughable when the government provides a gender biased economic safety
net for women while neglecting to provide an emotional safety net for the
fathers and children the government hurts.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:40:46 -0500, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

I'm not sure what the point of the following message is. The central
question in these matters is not DO women have all the post-conception
reproductive choices (abortion, giving up newborns at places like hospitals
with no questions asked, adoption, keeping the children). The question is
SHOULD women have all these choices, and be able to impose the costs of
their choices on men who have no option other than to accept whatever
unilateral decision the woman makes?

I believe that there CAN be methods of men making similar, if not the
same, choices women are currently singularly empowered with.

For instance, my eldest son's father told me from the beginning that
he wanted the baby aborted. I chose not to, but knew that it was my
choice and life went on for him as THOUGH I had had an abortion.

And just as women can walk away at any time, whether it be at birth or
later, and place the child up for adoption, I don't see why men can't
as well. It would then be the woman's choice whether she chooses to
raise/continue to raise the child alone. As with any adoption, all
parental rights are terminated.

The only thing I think would be impossible to mirror is if the woman
wants and abortion and the man does not. That would force a woman to
be nothing more than an incubator just as current law forces men into
being involuntary ATM's.

We can ask what should happen if the choices for abortion or adoption
were made by the men and the woman could not support the child and had
to turn to the government. Well, I am of the belief that welfare
should be a helping hand, not a way of life. If women are unable to
care for a child, the loving thing to do would be to give the child up
for adoption to parents who can.


And what does it mean to say that "men have little/no rights in these
choices, so women must be wise when making them?" Women can do what they
want, under the laws that prevail in the U.S. at the present time. They
might have to make "wise" choices if they had to bear the financial and
other consequences of their unilateral decisions. However, since they are
able to shift much of the cost of their unilateral choices to men, they
don't have to worry.

I say women must make wise choices because, although the law compels
men to support the children they sired, receiving that support is
never a guarantee. Women need to be prepared to do it alone even if
they never have to. Women need to make wise choices BECAUSE their
choices affect so many people who are unable to make the choices
themselves. I get tired of hearing the complaining from women who
made the choice to have and keep a baby even though the father made it
clear he did not want to when he doesn't pay his support. My
biological mother was forced with this decision when she became
pregnant with me and her boyfriend ditched her. I am thankful she
thought enough of me to give me up for adoption.



"Beverly" wrote in message
.. .
Long gone are the days when sex was reserved for marriage, where women
attended college because a) they were not yet engaged/married or b) to
become educated enough to have the ability to marry an educated man,
and when breaking wedding vows was considered a shameful thing to do.

There are essentially two ways to become a single parent; either a
child was conceived without the parents being married or a marriage
was dissolved. Choices women make are especially important in both
situations because men are often not afforded the the breadth of
choices that a woman has. While that may give women power, it should
also give them the responsibility that comes with that power... and
women should be willing to accept that responsibility.

Conception when parents are unmarried:

Choices a woman has include abortion, giving the baby up for adoption,
and keeping the baby. Men have little/no rights in these choices, so
women must be wise when making them. When looking at these choices,
it is obvious that only 1 out of 3 can cause financial hardship on a
woman and can potentially cause a child to live an impoversihed life.
When a woman chooses to keep the baby, she must consider whether she
is WILLING and ABLE to care for the baby herself even though the laws
provide for child support. While a court order for child support is
pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING it is not. Therefore,
women should make this choice only if she CAN do it without aid
(whether that be child support or welfare)... especially since 2
alternative choices are available to her.

What if the parents live together or the father promises to help raise
the child both financially and physically?

Never put so much trust in what another says he/she will do as to
jeapordize your own (and your child's) well-being. This should be
true in ALL situations, not just the decision to have a child. We
cannot control other people's actions/decisions and 18 years is a very
long time. Keeping the baby is a woman's decision and she must be
prepared to deal with that decision whether or not another keeps a
promise.

Conception within a marriage:

Given the divorce rate, it is important that both parents be willing
and able to take on the role of a single parent before having
children. Although divorce is never expected until it is happening, a
woman who lives her life as though the husband will always be there to
care for and support herself and any children is foolhardy. Although
women have entered the workforce in droves, many married women make
the mistake of working to supplement her husband's income rather than
be a liveable income all by itself... oftentimes settling for dead-end
jobs because her income is not considered "as important" as his is.

Yes, being there for the child is important and necessary for the
parent-child bond, but the child has two parents... neither of which
is more important than the other. Understand that when making the
CHOICE to be the primary care-giver. If you do not balance your
parenting with your ability to earn a living on your own, you are as
guilty of putting too much trust in what another says he/she will do
as an unmarried mother is. At the very least, an uneducated mother
should attempt to further her education once her child is in school.
If she is already educated, she should attempt to retain her skills
before the child goes to school and (re)enter the workforce once the
child does go to school. The goal is the ability to be
self-sustaining whether you ever need to be or not. Any husband who
prefers you to be a 1950's housewife rather than contributing to the
family discretionary income or the couple's retirement income is
selfish at best... controlling, perhaps.

If you find yourself in a divorce situation and want custody of the
children, be prepared to do it yourself. As said previously, a court
order for child support is pretty much guaranteed, actually RECEIVING
it is not. If you are unprepared to do it yourself, you could be
making the CHOICE to impoverish yourself and your children by taking
custody. I am reminded of the story in the bible where two women
claimed to be a child's mother. The only answer was to split the
child in half and give half to each claimant. Well, that would surely
kill the child; however, the REAL mother, wishing the best for her
child, was willing to let go of her claim in order the child live.
While the story ends with the real mother retaining the child, the
concept is not so different from two real parents wanting to split a
child. A REAL parent should be willing to let go as to do least harm
to the child.

I'm not saying there aren't situations that make paternal custody more
harmful to the child, but a woman's CHOICE to rely upon a man whether
married or not for her and her child's support is a bad choice if she
wishes to guarantee the children to grow up with her in a happy and
healthy environment.

In any case, I strongly encourage ALL women to make a choice to be
self-reliant. I do not negate the fact that a father should be held
financially responsible, IN PART, for his children, but I DO detest
women who financially rape a man because she has his child and has
made poor choices in life. It is time for women to start making good
decisions starting PRE-conception and continuing into marriage or
whatever. The best decision of all would be to always strive for
self-reliance. You may never need it, but I guarantee you that a
marriage is enhanced by the fact that you are together because you
want to be rather than because you need him to support you. I
guarantee you that your life is enhanced by the self-respect you have.

Beverly