George W Bush is the man God ordained for america!

G-Net wrote:
You are not only putting words in my mouth but completely misinterpreting
what I said. I guess this must be a deliberate way of making this discussion
go the way you want?

No...I'm trying to show that the way you are wording things makes it
seem that you believe thus and so. As I said previously, on Usenet we
only have the words on the computer screen. If you don't word them
correctly to paint the right picture, the wrong picture gets seen.

And what do you think that "greater illness" is?

Sin!

And sin is nothing new. Been in place since the Garden of Eden -
remember? Aside from that, if you believe the Bible and pay special
attention to prophecy you will realize that the escalation of sin is in
God's will and plan to bring about Jesus' return. It's being allowed
by God, due to our own actions. It's inevitable - and basically
uncontrollable as far as other people's actions go (especially the
unsaved). Does that mean we give up? Certainly not. But don't be so
surprised that it exists. It's a chain of events, a domino-effect if
you will, that will bring about the coming of the Messiah - not a world
that suddenly turns or burns.

Those people can now be identified as the majority of American citizens
today age 40 and younger and those who have too much money (simplified,
I know, but you get the drift).

You are, of course stereotyping and making judgements that I would
never agree with.

Why do you keep saying "...of course"? You don't know me - and I am
not stereotyping and making judgements. I can look back at people
younger than me and see a MAJOR general difference in the way they
think, feel, and act that is more callous, more "me-first", and more
selfish. Part of the problem is that people my age and older were more
"churched" as kids ("Raise up a child in the way he will go...").
Church attendance has plummeted in America and is has NOTHING to do
with removing prayer from schools. It has to do with what is happening
in the home.

I didn't say that there are people who "want to lose what they have here".
Those were YOUR words, not mine.

Yes, I know. My POINT was that nobody would WANT to lose what they
have here unless they were willing to go off to a third-world country
by choice to work with the less-fortunate there. Therefore - I don't
care what your conservative mind tells you - even the "evil" liberals
who speak up against the wrongs they see here would not WANT to leave
here.

Now do you get it?

I don't think it's overstated at all. I think that there is a growing
element of
people who want their own way and would have no problem sacrificing this
country to supposedly get what they want.

Yeah, there is. But it's conservative capitalists who are the biggest
offender.

What's killing America is apathy.

Maybe Christian apathy, I can agree with.

Apathy in general. Think about it! Nobody cares about anybody
anymore (another fulfillment of Bible prophecy). And the Christian
church is right in there - trading evangelism and winning souls to
Christ for politics and being the morality police ALL for political
power and control and personal wealth.

Only because Christians sat back and allowed the decept and lies
to be throw about as if they were facts. This is one of those instances
where apathy is applicable.

Yep. And now they're whining about it and breaking laws because of it
and killing people in the name of God.

It wasn't legalized because Americans overwhelmingly approved
of abortion. Abortion was legalized because the vast majority of
Americans who opposed it, sat on their hands and were too
intimidated to stand up and be counted.

You can't have it both ways - you just contradicted yourself in two
sentences: "Americans OVERWHELMINGLY approved of abortion" and "the
vast majority of Americans who opposed it sat on their hands". Which
is it? It was overwhelmingly approved (which means unprecedented
numbers of people approved it) or the majority of Americans opposed it?

We could start prosecuting the politicians...

Not feasible - BUT we can vote them ALL incumbents out this November
and in 2008 and get a great start on cleaning up the biggest part of
America's problem...

But you do believe that we should view lawmaking based on the Bible,
rather than consensus, no?

You are again putting words in my mouth. The Bible is already our basis for
law. Many of the laws we currently have coinside with Biblical concepts and/
or the ten commandments.

Yes, the Bible was a touchstone for our original laws - just like in
most other countries founded 200 years ago and farther. But parts of
the Bible are used in Judaism, as well as Islam. Not to mention a
whole lot of other religions use the Bible in a number of ways. This
country is made up millions and millions of people and there are a
whole lot of religions represented by those millions. The Bible is not
"owned" by Christianity - it's owned by God - yet American Christianity
behaves as if it is the sole owner of the Word of God AND this country.
This arrogance is what's taking American Christianity down and a good
part of this country with it. And what is arrogance? PRIDE. And what
does pride equal? SIN.

I think the Bible is a good basis for law but
the Bible was written before we had internet porn and many other things
that are a problem today.

That's not a good case for anything.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 1:9: "That which has been is that which
will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So
there is nothing new under the sun." In Hebrews 13:8 we find: "Jesus
Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." And in John 1:1:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God."

So as we see above - there's nothing new that God does not already know
about. His omniscence transcends time. We further see that because
Jesus (who is God in the form of the earthly Son) is the same
yesterday, today and forever and also the Word of God that the Word of
God ALSO transcends time. No - specifically "internet porn and many
other things that are a problem today" are not listed in the Bible, but
that doesn't mean that God didn't already know about these things when
the Word of God was given to us.

You just can't help yourself can you?

You wrote what you wrote. And what you wrote gave the impression that
money was your first concern over human life.

Money is important because it's not
just the wealthy who pay the bill.

Yes - but don't you realize that you are paying more comparatively than
those who CAN afford it?

Single working Moms, and intact working
families end up paying higher health care costs, insurance costs, and taxes
because we have allowed people who make bad choices to inflict the
consequences of those decisions on everyone else. It's not about greed
so much as promiscuity, lust, lawlessness, and just plain stupidity.

But these things have been here since the Garden (remember my previous
comment in this vein?). It's not like somebody recently noticed a
problem and said "Look! We suddenly have promiscuity, and lust, and
lawlessness and people who live according to their own free will! It's
so far out of control that we can't take care of it! What are we going
to do?!" This has been building for a LONG, LONG TIME and those who
had the power and means to change it did nothing because THEY were to
busy building and getting what THEY wanted. Now - it's up to those of
us who have little to take up the slack for those who have much? I
don't think so....!

Now, according to your logic, life begins at conception and we should
care about the "child" then, but not after it's born because if it's an
unwanted pregnancy the existence of that child "leads to poverty, the
need for child welfare, unnecessary medical expenses." That's sick
logic, my friend.

And yet again, that is not at all what I said. Unwanted pregnancies
DO lead to poverty, the need for welfare, and unnecessary medical expense
but that doesn't mean that I think that these children once born, should be
abandoned. We should be stressing the value of life, ALL life whether it be
that of an unborn child or that of a baby. Abortion cheapens that picture
by saying that an unborn baby is somehow worthless.

But don't you see the hypocrisy?

You care about what you believe is a baby BEFORE it's born but think it
should be punished BECAUSE it was born.

As I told you before, I have worked in the law enforcement and welfare
system for many years, it is NOT the simple problem that you want to
believe it is. This is a complex multifaceted issue. There are no quick
fixes for this problem.

Duh!!! It's complex and multifaceted now. It wasn't so complex and
multifaceted, say, 50 years ago when it could have been curbed to a
certain degree. That's why the millionaires with money to burn should
use it to make the problem more manageable!

I have no idea where you came up with that. A disease is a disease
a disease is not sin. Sin is the actions which in many cases made
the person susceptable to the disease.

Once again, it's how you word things here. I can't look into your
eyes, hear the inflection in your voice, watch your body language, etc.
All I have to go on is how you say things in your typed words. From
the way you wrote it it seemed as if you were saying something other
than what you (now) obviously meant.

They are not ONLY due BUT they would certainly be FAR less
of a problem if people who refrain from sex outside of a
monogamous marriage.

Agreed. But monogamous marriage now doesn't mean STD's won't pop up
later. Abstinence is the key - not monogamous marriage. Many people
are what I call "serial- monogamists".

You are trying to look for other factors and then trying to say
that they are responsibile rather than taking prayer out of
school. You can believe what you wish.

Yeah - I AM saying there are other factors. And if you were being
realistic instead of parroting a propogandic lie, you would realize
that there were other factors too.

I know several people in the Baptist denomination. In fact
I took a missions trip to Alaska with a Baptist church. Not
one of them agreed with slavery of any kind, ever.

The Southern Baptist Church (the largest of the Baptist denominations)
was founded on their belief that slavery was permissible and a right.
Look it up - it's a historical fact. It's also a historical fact that
the SBC didn't publically renounce slavery and apologize for their
stance until 1 9 9 5 ! ! !

No one, NO ONE who only uses the Old Testament to "prove" something
can ever be "right". You have to use the entire Bible in context in order
to be using the Bible correctly. Homosexuality is a sin just as stealing,
lying, and adultery are sins. In other words, we are all sinners and
we all need Jesus Christ in order to be "saved".

I will say only this: the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality in the
way you have been led to believe it does. However, I do not discuss
homosexuality and the Bible in these forums (a new standard for me in
the last few days) because it just goes on and on and on until the
point gets lost on both sides. So I'm just going to let it drop at
that.

Right, because it's a more complex issue.

No - it's not as complex as it is out of control. Jesus didn't see
poverty and hunger as complex. If He did He wouldn't have said what He
did in Matthew 25:31-46. He made it VERY simple. Remember - "there is
nothing new under the sun".

I agree that those who have should help those who don't. Unfortunately,
it is a sin issue that they don't.

It is definitely sin - the above Scriptures tell us that.

It's not what Jesus said.

I'm aware of that...

Really? Well you implied it.

I impled what? That I am not a political conservative? Or that I'm a
commie-leftist?

It's a common sense thing. Apparently common sense ain't so common.

I have learned to NEVER read anything into what someone is saying here
or in the real world. It's always better to ask than assume.

No one is forceing Amercans but there are demonic influences that
DO encourage gluttony and selfishness. America is a prime place
since we have so much.

Nuh-uh. Don't try to use a "the devil made me do it" philosophy on me.
EVERYONE is responsible for what they do. EVERYONE. Don't blame
Satan for your wrong choices or the wrong choices of others.

Yeah and you can see the same thing in many, many churches too.
It doesn't make it right, it doesn't mean it's okay, and it doesn't
mean that God won't punish the church for it's gluttony either.

The church will be punished first and foremost.

I see - God helps those who help themselves, eh?

There is an element of truth in that.

You do know that's not found in the Bible, right?

The actual words are not scriptural.

If it ain't scriptural, then don't try to assign God's truth to it.
Remember blessed are the meek? Blessed are the poor in spirit?
Blessed are the peacemakers? Those who are the least will be first.
God's love and favor and grace are not works based.

It's your stress.

No - it's the stress that those who choose to do things in the name of
God have put upon this nation and it's people. Now it's spreading into
the rest of the world.

Sadam needed to be taken out of power (which he was). My preference
would have been to just throw a hand grenade into the hole where he
was hiding rather than go through this trial fiasco.

Oy, vey!

You would do yourself a favor it you did learn about them and their
connections with the US and why they were (are) allowed to stay in
power. Spanish-American author George Santayana said "Those who cannot
remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

I am not sure that the U.S. should always take out dictators. I don't know
when we should act and shouldn't act.

But in the meantime - just "take them out" and "throw a hand grenade"
in their general direction and let God sort it all out, right?

I don't consider that we are waring with the citizens of Iraq either.
That
sounds to me like you are over sensationalizing the Iraq war (almost
like the media tries to do).

The Iraqi people would disagree with you.

Well that's the side the liberal media wants to show anyway.

And you bought into THAT lie, too?

So you would still advocate killing Saddam Hussein and "his band of
thugs" rather than capturing and trying them?

Yeah, probably. But I don't claim to be an authority or anything. I just
think that his trial is a charade.

His trial is justce. It was the same kind of justice at Nuremburg.

I would hope that no one WANTS war but there are times that a country
has to stand up and not back down.

Yeah - but there's a time to allow someone else to fight their own
fight, too. We didn't learn this in Vietnam, and we're not learning it
in Iraq. Remember - those who don't remember the past are destined to
repeat it...

We are now forced to be there to clean up what we did - and we
will likely be there in one way or another for the next ten to
fifteen years.

I don't know about that.

So because YOU don't know it can't be true...?

I don't think we've really shown them brute force.

The families of innocent civilians killed in Afganistan and Iraq would
feel differently, I bet.

I think they need to understand that they are dealing
with people who take a dim view of terrorist activities
and that we will deal with their nonsence swifty
and seriously. That's about all they understand.

You don't really believe that we are fulfilling some great thical
destiny and fighting in Iraq ONLY because of terrorism, do you?

I'm officially through with this argument. It could go on forever, and
to no avail. There's no moral or philosophical profit in it for either
of us. You believe what you have been told to believe and I believe
what I do because of my conscience.

You may, however, have the last word if you so choose.

127.0.0.1 wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:

127.0.0.1 wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:

G-Net wrote:

No one in their right mind, would
ever take pleasure in the demise of America. I do hate
to see our country going down hill the past decade or
two. The sad part, is that there ARE people who do
want to see America cease to exist and many of them
are right here within our own borders.
--------------------------
I want to see the America survive that believes in feee speech and
free sex! I want to see the America survive that believes in free
health care for everyone. I want to see the Scientific America
survive where we can know the Truth instead of ignorant religious
fables, from "creationism" to Fundy AntiSexualism. I want to see
the America survive that believes the Rich must be STOPPED, and
that NO one should ever have to pay a rich man to live in a house!
I want the kind of America to survive that is killing off stupidity
like YOURS by Science, and Reason, and the Good Sense of Equality!
Steve

You could just move to Amsterdam.
-------------------
Nope, can't speak Dutch.

We've the RIGHT to change it, and would rather make it so HERE!!
Steve

Ain't going to happen here man.. My firends uncle told us stories about
Amsterdam that you wouldn't believe.
---------------------
And everything that HAS happened here FIRST happened there.

Your medieval crap ain't long for this world.
Steve

Zigler wrote:

Obviously you don't read anything or listen to the news much. It was
not an "illegal" war. Saddam Hussein was a brutal, murderous,
dictator who needed to be taken out.

Obviously you don't understand the ethics and international laws and
conventions regarding war.
-----------------
All that's irrelevant, poorly established, and impotent, ain't any.

What's true is that Saddam should have been taken out, but the
sensible thing would have been to let him suppress the Muslims
till we were done with Afghanistan and Syria and Iran, pretend
he is our great ally, and then at the last, when we're pumped
up again, turn on him. We should have nuked the whole area a
little at a time.

Bush is **** because his believers are the US Taliban Fundies
that we'll have to execute HERE in a few decades anyway.

There are NO "illegal" wars. Those who make war make the laws.
Steve

G-Net wrote:

Of course I want all Americans to think that abortion is wrong
just as I want them to think that murder is wrong, stealing is
wrong, breaking and entry is wrong, and lying is wrong.
---------------------------
Bull****.
Killing and stealing aren't always wrong!! Neither is lying!
Killing Fundy Fascists like you is a Blessing!
Stealing from the Rich is merely recovery of stolen property!
Lying to **** like you is merely a good deed!


Abortion is legal.

Only because Christians sat back and allowed the decept and lies
to be throw about as if they were facts. This is one of those instances
where apathy is applicable.
----------------------
Bull****. Abortion kills no one. There's NO ONE THERE!! NOBODY EVER
remembered being a fetus, and if our fetuses had been killed we'd
have never known or cared!! NOBODY IS THERE YET!!!!!!!!
Steve

***Whosoever*** wrote:

G-Net wrote:
Sin!

And sin is nothing new. Been in place since the Garden of Eden -
remember? Aside from that, if you believe the Bible and pay special
attention to prophecy you will realize that the escalation of sin is in
God's will and plan to bring about Jesus' return. It's being allowed
by God, due to our own actions. It's inevitable - and basically
uncontrollable as far as other people's actions go (especially the
unsaved). Does that mean we give up? Certainly not. But don't be so
surprised that it exists. It's a chain of events, a domino-effect if
you will, that will bring about the coming of the Messiah - not a world
that suddenly turns or burns.
----------------------------
This is the kind of magical delusional thinking that these Fundy
cretins will indulge in right up until they are eliminated from
the planet. They can't handle that their doomsday ain't coming,
and their Gawd don't exist, so they imagine it's "all Gawd's plan"
even when it ACTUALLY appears that they were TOTALLY WRONG!!


Why do you keep saying "...of course"? You don't know me - and I am
not stereotyping and making judgements. I can look back at people
younger than me and see a MAJOR general difference in the way they
think, feel, and act that is more callous, more "me-first", and more
selfish. Part of the problem is that people my age and older were more
"churched" as kids ("Raise up a child in the way he will go...").
Church attendance has plummeted in America and is has NOTHING to do
with removing prayer from schools. It has to do with what is happening
in the home.
------------------
What you trash aren't GETTING is that it was the "church"-ing that
abused people and caused them to become callous! The whole concept
of "savedness" is ego-ridden and anti-Xtian, but you can't fathom
a world where everybody wins! You wouldn't know your Jesus if your
ass was on fire and he was putting it out with an axe!


It wasn't legalized because Americans overwhelmingly approved
of abortion. Abortion was legalized because the vast majority of
Americans who opposed it, sat on their hands and were too
intimidated to stand up and be counted.
------------------
Lie. It became legal because 2/3rds of us don't believe your baloney
anymore, and the number of you left is dropping like a rock!


You can't have it both ways - you just contradicted yourself in two
sentences: "Americans OVERWHELMINGLY approved of abortion" and "the
vast majority of Americans who opposed it sat on their hands". Which
is it? It was overwhelmingly approved (which means unprecedented
numbers of people approved it) or the majority of Americans opposed it?
---------------------
Precisely.


You are again putting words in my mouth. The Bible is already our basis for
law. Many of the laws we currently have coinside with Biblical concepts and/
or the ten commandments.

Yes, the Bible was a touchstone for our original laws
-----------------
Nope, it's always been different. Law thru the English system was
based on precedent and the Rights of Englishmen. That was developed
by scholars familiar with Hammurabi and a dozen other systems of law.
Only biblers croak and lie that it's biblical, because without that
they can only shut the **** up.


I think the Bible is a good basis for law but
the Bible was written before we had internet porn and many other things
that are a problem today.
-------------------------
Internet porn isn't a "problem", it works just fine!
You're under the delusion that everybody forever has shared the
American terror of sexuality, and the news is, THEY DIDN'T!!
Only in the last several centuries has English Xtianity modeled
sin after sex!!


It's not about greed
so much as promiscuity, lust, lawlessness, and just plain stupidity.
--------------------------------
More of Rich people's claiming the Poor are so because "they sinned".
Jesus would scourge you with a flail for saying that!!! Any ill
decisions people make comes of the circumstances of their life,
and those are stolen from them by their greedy masters, so greed
is the source of all evil!!


But don't you see the hypocrisy?

You care about what you believe is a baby BEFORE it's born but think it
should be punished BECAUSE it was born.
-----------------------------
Bingo!! Babies are starved by those who have because they have TAKEN,
and NOT by those who do NOT have because they were TAKEN FROM!!!!


They are not ONLY due BUT they would certainly be FAR less
of a problem if people who refrain from sex outside of a
monogamous marriage.

Agreed.
----------------------------
Nonsense, some stupid piece of paper is irrelevant!! It is whether
a society is honorable enough to succor ALL the fruits of its
young people's sex, and not merely those of the Rich and Mighty!


But monogamous marriage now doesn't mean STD's won't pop up
later.
------------
STDs will be there no matter what, because monogamy is only performed
by one person at a time, and not reliably, nor can they rely on their
partner, over whom they have no certain knowledge!! ONLY SOCIETY can
eliminate STDs by testing and recording of sexual congress in a
sexually open society where people can have sexual variety! In a
sexually open society there is no shame to hamper information, and
the Society can have people have their sex is groups with fully enough
variety for all, and yet it can then isolate disease spread before it
travels to other groups. By public testing and open isolation STDs
can be knocked down and defeated, just as by public health we killed
SmallPox.


Abstinence is the key - not monogamous marriage. Many people
are what I call "serial- monogamists".
--------------------------
Abstinence is the key ONLY to sexual unhappiness and the secrecy
that spreads disease like wildfire!!


You are trying to look for other factors and then trying to say
that they are responsibile rather than taking prayer out of
school. You can believe what you wish.

Yeah - I AM saying there are other factors. And if you were being
realistic instead of parroting a propogandic lie, you would realize
that there were other factors too.
-----------------------------
****ing Xtians should be rounded up and KILLED for trying to make
everyone pray like they do!! If we hadn't gotten prayer out of
schools I for one would have started burning churches by now!!


The Southern Baptist Church (the largest of the Baptist denominations)
was founded on their belief that slavery was permissible and a right.
Look it up - it's a historical fact. It's also a historical fact that
the SBC didn't publically renounce slavery and apologize for their
stance until 1 9 9 5 ! ! !
---------------------------
Should have been rounded up and killed in the 1870's!!


No one, NO ONE who only uses the Old Testament to "prove" something
can ever be "right". You have to use the entire Bible in context in order
to be using the Bible correctly. Homosexuality is a sin just as stealing,
lying, and adultery are sins.
--------------------------------
Nonsense, those are just advantaged power-mongers trying to make the
world safe for their WEALTH!! The bible is ACTUALLY a munged set of
self-contradictory lies, which is why you have to pretend it just HAS
to be understood in some weird way that only YOU or someone YOU APPROVE
OF can do properly. Using that I could take a phone book and
have it say what *I* wanted! Such insane interpretation is dogmatism.


In other words, we are all sinners and
we all need Jesus Christ in order to be "saved".
----------------------------
Garbage. Magical thinking. Disconnected blather.


No one is forceing Amercans but there are demonic influences that
DO encourage gluttony and selfishness. America is a prime place
since we have so much.

Nuh-uh. Don't try to use a "the devil made me do it" philosophy on me.
EVERYONE is responsible for what they do. EVERYONE. Don't blame
Satan for your wrong choices or the wrong choices of others.
---------------------------------
NO ONE is responsible for what they do, except in that they are held
to account by nature even for that over which they have NO control,
their upbringing, their inherited health, etc.

NOBODY controls their life, they ride upon it and witness it, but
they have no ability to change the decisions they make because those
come from influences upon them over which they had no control at all.

Nobody can change the tiniest thing they think by an effort of will.
They may lie and say they can, but they cannot. If we were able to
change and wished to then we already would have done so.

Look at it this way: If you die and go to a big "Reunion" of all the
possible You's that you could have been, fat ones and thin ones,
smart and stupid, alcoholic wretches and drug addicts, rich and
accomplished, then if you asked, "but why did *I* make the mistakes
I did and you didn't?", they might say, "well, you didn't think like
I did", and you'd say, "but You were me, how could I not have?"
and they would say "well you were a weak silly person", and you'd
say, "Then why weren't YOU weak and silly? You were ME!!" and you'd
realize that they couldn't be different than you, and that who you
all were to start with was exactly the same, that would HAVE to have
been so for you to be you at your BIRTHS!! So finally you'd ALL have
to conclude that the difference were RANDOM, and OUT OF YOUR CONTROL!!

And THAT'S what I mean when I say that cause and effect is totally
Deterministic, and there is NO FREE WILL!! You think what you think
because of what happened to you, and nothing else!! You can't help
it, you can't change it, and your Life this time is a Ride On Rails.
It cannot go elsewhere than it is bound to go!

This is why the whole notion of Sin and Blame is DEFECTIVE AND WRONG!!

The whole of the Society can help itself because we can help each
other however we find ourselves able, but we cannot help ourselves!!!
Steve

"***Whosoever***" wrote in message
oups.com...
G-Net wrote:
You are not only putting words in my mouth but completely misinterpreting
what I said. I guess this must be a deliberate way of making this
discussion
go the way you want?

No...I'm trying to show that the way you are wording things makes it
seem that you believe thus and so.

And I am supposed to believe that YOUR words don't?

As I said previously, on Usenet we only have the words on the
computer screen. If you don't word them correctly to paint the
right picture, the wrong picture gets seen.

....or could it be that the person who reads and interprets the words
also has some culpability?

And what do you think that "greater illness" is?

Sin!

And sin is nothing new. Been in place since the Garden of Eden -
remember?

Remember? I am the one who mentioned it in the first place.

Aside from that, if you believe the Bible and pay special
attention to prophecy you will realize that the escalation
of sin is in God's will and plan to bring about Jesus' return.

It is NOT God's will for man to sin, ever. Scripture does tell
us that sin will continue to increase but it doesn't say that
God is happy about it or that it is His will either.

It's being allowed by God, due to our own actions. It's
inevitable - and basically uncontrollable as far as other
people's actions go (especially the unsaved).

Everyone sins, saved or unsaved. The difference is that
those who are born again are not willfully disobedient
as the unsaved are.

Does that mean we give up? Certainly not. But don't
be so surprised that it exists. It's a chain of events, a
domino-effect if you will, that will bring about the
coming of the Messiah - not a world that suddenly
turns or burns.

What gave you the idea that I was "surprised" that sin
exists? Sin begets more sin so in a way it is a vicious
cycle.

Speaking of "watching how you word things", you
would do well to heed your own advice. You make
it sound like it's a good thing that people are
willfully disobeying God!

Those people can now be identified as the majority of American citizens
today age 40 and younger and those who have too much money (simplified,
I know, but you get the drift).

You are, of course stereotyping and making judgements that I would
never agree with.

Why do you keep saying "...of course"? You don't know me - and I am
not stereotyping and making judgements.

"on Usenet we only have the words on the computer screen. If you
don't word them correctly to paint the right picture, the wrong picture
gets seen." Sound familiar? THAT'S why I said "of course".

I can look back at people younger than me and see a MAJOR general
difference in the way they think, feel, and act that is more callous,
more "me-first", and more selfish. Part of the problem is that people
my age and older were more "churched" as kids ("Raise up a child in
the way he will go..."). Church attendance has plummeted in America
and is has NOTHING to do with removing prayer from schools. It has
to do with what is happening in the home.

You can believe what you choose as far as prayer being taken out of
school goes. You have yet to convince me that you have any facts
to support your conclusions that it wasn't a significant change.

As far as your stereotyping the younger generation, I don't think
that it's fair or correct. I have know some older people who were
just as selfish and self centered as any one I have ever met so it
goes across all age groups.

I didn't say that there are people who "want to lose what they have
here".
Those were YOUR words, not mine.

Yes, I know. My POINT was that nobody would WANT to lose what
they have here unless they were willing to go off to a third-world
country by choice to work with the less-fortunate there. Therefore
I don't care what your conservative mind tells you - even the "evil"
liberals who speak up against the wrongs they see here would not
WANT to leave here.

Yes, I know. My POINT was that they don't care and aren't smart
enough (or are too arrogant) to even consider the fact that they
are killing this country.

Now do you get it?

Now do YOU get it?

I don't think it's overstated at all. I think that there is a growing
element of people who want their own way and would have no
problem sacrificing this country to supposedly get what they want.

Yeah, there is. But it's conservative capitalists who are the biggest
offender.

I guess it depends upon your particular definition of a "conservative
capitalist" as to whether I could even partially agree with you.

What's killing America is apathy.

Maybe Christian apathy, I can agree with.

Apathy in general. Think about it! Nobody cares about anybody
anymore (another fulfillment of Bible prophecy). And the Christian
church is right in there - trading evangelism and winning souls to
Christ for politics and being the morality police ALL for political
power and control and personal wealth.

I think the church gets branded with the name "morality police"
but it's usually done by those who think that they have a right
to do whatever, however, whenever and whoever they so choose.

Only because Christians sat back and allowed the decept and lies
to be throw about as if they were facts. This is one of those instances
where apathy is applicable.

Yep. And now they're whining about it and breaking laws because of it
and killing people in the name of God.

Oh yeah, here we go with the nonsence about a few radicals who have
bombed abortion clinics. These folks are fringe and do not
represent mainstream Christianity by any means.

It wasn't legalized because Americans overwhelmingly approved
of abortion. Abortion was legalized because the vast majority of
Americans who opposed it, sat on their hands and were too
intimidated to stand up and be counted.

You can't have it both ways - you just contradicted yourself in two
sentences: "Americans OVERWHELMINGLY approved of abortion" and "the
vast majority of Americans who opposed it sat on their hands". Which
is it? It was overwhelmingly approved (which means unprecedented
numbers of people approved it) or the majority of Americans opposed it?

I'm not even going to answer this because obviously you can't read or
understand what I wrote above.

We could start prosecuting the politicians...

Not feasible - BUT we can vote them ALL incumbents out this November
and in 2008 and get a great start on cleaning up the biggest part of
America's problem...

We could clean up sin by voting in the next election? I doubt that
very much.

But you do believe that we should view lawmaking based on the Bible,
rather than consensus, no?

You are again putting words in my mouth. The Bible is already our basis
for
law. Many of the laws we currently have coinside with Biblical concepts
and/
or the ten commandments.

Yes, the Bible was a touchstone for our original laws - just like in
most other countries founded 200 years ago and farther. But parts of
the Bible are used in Judaism, as well as Islam. Not to mention a
whole lot of other religions use the Bible in a number of ways. This
country is made up millions and millions of people and there are a
whole lot of religions represented by those millions. The Bible is not
"owned" by Christianity - it's owned by God - yet American Christianity
behaves as if it is the sole owner of the Word of God AND this country.

No one "owns" scripture and I have NEVER heard anyone (even the
morons on television), say that they did. If a Christian even so much
as mentions the word "sin" everyone gets up in arms and calls them
the Bible police, morality police, or some other ridiculous name.

Sin is sin and should be called such, regardless of who likes it or not.

This arrogance is what's taking American Christianity down and a good
part of this country with it. And what is arrogance? PRIDE. And what
does pride equal? SIN.

Pride is sinful as is arrogance but Christianity doesn't have the market
cornered on either.

I think the Bible is a good basis for law but
the Bible was written before we had internet porn and many other things
that are a problem today.

That's not a good case for anything.

....in your opinion.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 1:9: "That which has been is that which
will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So
there is nothing new under the sun." In Hebrews 13:8 we find: "Jesus
Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." And in John 1:1:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God."

So as we see above - there's nothing new that God does not already know
about. His omniscence transcends time. We further see that because
Jesus (who is God in the form of the earthly Son) is the same
yesterday, today and forever and also the Word of God that the Word of
God ALSO transcends time. No - specifically "internet porn and many
other things that are a problem today" are not listed in the Bible, but
that doesn't mean that God didn't already know about these things when
the Word of God was given to us.

My point was that there are modern "sins" which are not specifically listed
in the Bible. There are nitwits who try to use the absence of scripture as a
license to sin.

You just can't help yourself can you?

You wrote what you wrote. And what you wrote gave the impression
that money was your first concern over human life.

You get "impressions" from my posts as I get "impressions" from
yours.

Money is important because it's not
just the wealthy who pay the bill.

Yes - but don't you realize that you are paying more comparatively than
those who CAN afford it?

Sure I know it and I don't like it either but it's the way the "system"
is setup now.

Single working Moms, and intact working
families end up paying higher health care costs, insurance costs, and
taxes
because we have allowed people who make bad choices to inflict the
consequences of those decisions on everyone else. It's not about greed
so much as promiscuity, lust, lawlessness, and just plain stupidity.

But these things have been here since the Garden (remember my previous
comment in this vein?). It's not like somebody recently noticed a
problem and said "Look! We suddenly have promiscuity, and lust, and
lawlessness and people who live according to their own free will! It's
so far out of control that we can't take care of it! What are we going
to do?!" This has been building for a LONG, LONG TIME and those who
had the power and means to change it did nothing because THEY were to
busy building and getting what THEY wanted.

I'm not sure I can agree with you here either. I don't think that the
politicians, policy makers, or law makers could have done anything
about sin because they don't recognize it when they see it.

Now - it's up to those of us who have little to take up the slack
for those who have much? I don't think so....!

So what's the alternative? Let the world go down the tubes?

Now, according to your logic, life begins at conception and we should
care about the "child" then, but not after it's born because if it's an
unwanted pregnancy the existence of that child "leads to poverty, the
need for child welfare, unnecessary medical expenses." That's sick
logic, my friend.

And yet again, that is not at all what I said. Unwanted pregnancies
DO lead to poverty, the need for welfare, and unnecessary medical expense
but that doesn't mean that I think that these children once born, should
be
abandoned. We should be stressing the value of life, ALL life whether it
be
that of an unborn child or that of a baby. Abortion cheapens that picture
by saying that an unborn baby is somehow worthless.

But don't you see the hypocrisy?

No I don't see the hypocrasy in my position at all. I don't think that
killing
unborn babies makes anything "right" or better.

You care about what you believe is a baby BEFORE it's born but think it
should be punished BECAUSE it was born.

No I don't and I have never said that either. If there are babies being
"punished" for being born, it is their parents doing the punishing.

As I told you before, I have worked in the law enforcement and welfare
system for many years, it is NOT the simple problem that you want to
believe it is. This is a complex multifaceted issue. There are no quick
fixes for this problem.

Duh!!! It's complex and multifaceted now. It wasn't so complex and
multifaceted, say, 50 years ago when it could have been curbed to a
certain degree. That's why the millionaires with money to burn should
use it to make the problem more manageable!

And I again remind you that most millionaires are unbelievers who
are not about to do so. Since you are so quick to quote scripture
surely you recall Jesus telling us that it's difficult for a rich man
to enter heaven?

I have no idea where you came up with that. A disease is a disease
a disease is not sin. Sin is the actions which in many cases made
the person susceptable to the disease.

Once again, it's how you word things here. I can't look into your
eyes, hear the inflection in your voice, watch your body language, etc.
All I have to go on is how you say things in your typed words. From
the way you wrote it it seemed as if you were saying something other
than what you (now) obviously meant.

They are not ONLY due BUT they would certainly be FAR less
of a problem if people who refrain from sex outside of a
monogamous marriage.

Agreed. But monogamous marriage now doesn't mean STD's
won't pop up later. Abstinence is the key - not monogamous
marriage. Many people are what I call "serial- monogamists".

"Serial monogamy" is also sin. Abstinence is what we should be
talking about but most people grow pale at the mere mention
of it.

You are trying to look for other factors and then trying to say
that they are responsibile rather than taking prayer out of
school. You can believe what you wish.

Yeah - I AM saying there are other factors. And if you were being
realistic instead of parroting a propogandic lie, you would realize
that there were other factors too.

And I am saying that the statistics speak for themselves and they
DO show that taking prayer out of schools WAS a significant
factor.

I know several people in the Baptist denomination. In fact
I took a missions trip to Alaska with a Baptist church. Not
one of them agreed with slavery of any kind, ever.

The Southern Baptist Church (the largest of the Baptist denominations)
was founded on their belief that slavery was permissible and a right.
Look it up - it's a historical fact. It's also a historical fact that
the SBC didn't publically renounce slavery and apologize for their
stance until 1 9 9 5 ! ! !

That's the organization and cannot be used to determine individual
beliefs.

No one, NO ONE who only uses the Old Testament to "prove" something
can ever be "right". You have to use the entire Bible in context in order
to be using the Bible correctly. Homosexuality is a sin just as stealing,
lying, and adultery are sins. In other words, we are all sinners and
we all need Jesus Christ in order to be "saved".

I will say only this: the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality in the
way you have been led to believe it does. However, I do not discuss
homosexuality and the Bible in these forums (a new standard for me in
the last few days) because it just goes on and on and on until the
point gets lost on both sides. So I'm just going to let it drop at
that.

I will say that you are wrong, homosexuality is a sin just like any other
sin.

Right, because it's a more complex issue.

No - it's not as complex as it is out of control. Jesus didn't see
poverty and hunger as complex. If He did He wouldn't have said what He
did in Matthew 25:31-46. He made it VERY simple. Remember - "there is
nothing new under the sun".

Sin has made it a complex issue.

I agree that those who have should help those who don't. Unfortunately,
it is a sin issue that they don't.

It is definitely sin - the above Scriptures tell us that.

It's not what Jesus said.

I'm aware of that...

Really? Well you implied it.

I impled what? That I am not a political conservative? Or that I'm a
commie-leftist?

It's a common sense thing. Apparently common sense ain't so common.

I have learned to NEVER read anything into what someone is saying here
or in the real world. It's always better to ask than assume.

Why have you done so with my post then?

No one is forceing Amercans but there are demonic influences that
DO encourage gluttony and selfishness. America is a prime place
since we have so much.

Nuh-uh. Don't try to use a "the devil made me do it" philosophy on me.
EVERYONE is responsible for what they do. EVERYONE. Don't blame
Satan for your wrong choices or the wrong choices of others.

I did not say that the devil made them do it. I said that there were
demonic influences.

Yeah and you can see the same thing in many, many churches too.
It doesn't make it right, it doesn't mean it's okay, and it doesn't
mean that God won't punish the church for it's gluttony either.

The church will be punished first and foremost.

I believe that the church will be held accountable but I don't know
who will be "punished first and foremost".

I see - God helps those who help themselves, eh?

There is an element of truth in that.

You do know that's not found in the Bible, right?

The actual words are not scriptural.

If it ain't scriptural, then don't try to assign God's truth to it.

As I said it ain't in the Bible but there is reason to believe that
it has a ring of Biblical truth to it.

Remember blessed are the meek? Blessed are the poor in spirit?
Blessed are the peacemakers? Those who are the least will be first.
God's love and favor and grace are not works based.

Salvation is not "works based". This has nothing to do with
helping yourself.

It's your stress.

No - it's the stress that those who choose to do things in
the name of God have put upon this nation and it's
people. Now it's spreading into the rest of the world.

I have done things in God's name before. I have taken missions
trips, performed baptisms, etc. So I guess these acts put
"stress upon this nation". Maybe you would have rather
that I did these things in the devil's name?

Sadam needed to be taken out of power (which he was). My preference
would have been to just throw a hand grenade into the hole where he
was hiding rather than go through this trial fiasco.

Oy, vey!

You would do yourself a favor it you did learn about them and their
connections with the US and why they were (are) allowed to stay in
power. Spanish-American author George Santayana said "Those who cannot
remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

I am not sure that the U.S. should always take out dictators. I don't
know
when we should act and shouldn't act.

But in the meantime - just "take them out" and "throw a hand
grenade" in their general direction and let God sort it all out,
right?

Right! It's God's job to judge Saddam. It's our job to arrange the
meeting...

I don't consider that we are waring with the citizens of Iraq either.
That sounds to me like you are over sensationalizing the Iraq war
(almost like the media tries to do).

The Iraqi people would disagree with you.

Well that's the side the liberal media wants to show anyway.

And you bought into THAT lie, too?

The media is liberal whether you are honest enough to admit it
or not.

So you would still advocate killing Saddam Hussein and "his band of
thugs" rather than capturing and trying them?

Yeah, probably. But I don't claim to be an authority or anything. I just
think that his trial is a charade.

His trial is justce. It was the same kind of justice at Nuremburg.

Saddam's trial is a joke.

I would hope that no one WANTS war but there are times that a country
has to stand up and not back down.

Yeah - but there's a time to allow someone else to fight their own
fight, too. We didn't learn this in Vietnam, and we're not learning it
in Iraq. Remember - those who don't remember the past are destined to
repeat it...

I can agree that there are instances where we need to let countries
fight it out amounst themselves. Whether Iraq was one of those
countries is where we differ in opinion.

We are now forced to be there to clean up what we did - and we
will likely be there in one way or another for the next ten to
fifteen years.

I don't know about that.

So because YOU don't know it can't be true...?

Not my words, your words. I said that I don't know about that so
I cannot agree with you.

I don't think we've really shown them brute force.

The families of innocent civilians killed in Afganistan and Iraq would
feel differently, I bet.

Yeah, I just bet they would.

I think they need to understand that they are dealing
with people who take a dim view of terrorist activities
and that we will deal with their nonsence swifty
and seriously. That's about all they understand.

You don't really believe that we are fulfilling some great thical
destiny and fighting in Iraq ONLY because of terrorism, do you?

I'm officially through with this argument. It could go on forever, and
to no avail. There's no moral or philosophical profit in it for either
of us. You believe what you have been told to believe and I believe
what I do because of my conscience.

Oh, yeah because you are so much smarter and so much more
"informed" than I am. And what I love even more is your
godliness and humility....

You may, however, have the last word if you so choose.