impossible feeding pattern?

I apologize for the length, I searched the archives but could not find
an answer to our predicament.

DD is 7w today and is BM-fed exclusively. I had a very difficult time
in the first couple of weeks w/ one side (cracked and bleeding nipples,
mastitis and very low supply - 0.3oz per 20min pumping w/ PIS). The
other side was fine, no latching problems.

I rented a hospital grade pump and used it on the left side, waiting for
her jaws and mouth to grow. The hospital pump did wonders to my
supply - in two weeks of exclusive pumping, it went from 0.3oz to 2-3oz
per 10min. During that time, I nursed DD on one side, the machine on
the other. When DD finished nursing, she received a bottle of EBM (no
nipple preference). I started expressing much more than she consumes
(leaving about 6-7oz/day to freeze).

We are now trying to transition from the machine to the breast and being
rather successful (turns out waiting for the mouth to grow was the best
advice I received). The problem is that DD has a strange eating pattern.
She usually nurses every 2-3h, and does not consume more than half the
expressed milk. However, once a day, in the evenings, she empties both
sides and then *devours* additional 4-5oz. The ravenous behavior
happens only once a day, but she is inconsolable if not offered the
additional portion. I tried offering her the empty breasts, over and over
again, but she refuses and screams uncontrollably.

This pattern was sustainable while I pumped, as there was always surplus
waiting, but if we move to exclusive nursing, what can I offer her during
that time? I noticed that the pumped side is starting to decrease its
supply (to accommodate her needs), so when she demands the additional
meal, it is not there.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
t.

trich wrote:
I apologize for the length, I searched the archives but could not find
an answer to our predicament.

DD is 7w today and is BM-fed exclusively. I had a very difficult time
in the first couple of weeks w/ one side (cracked and bleeding nipples,
mastitis and very low supply - 0.3oz per 20min pumping w/ PIS). The
other side was fine, no latching problems.

I rented a hospital grade pump and used it on the left side, waiting for
her jaws and mouth to grow. The hospital pump did wonders to my
supply - in two weeks of exclusive pumping, it went from 0.3oz to 2-3oz
per 10min. During that time, I nursed DD on one side, the machine on
the other. When DD finished nursing, she received a bottle of EBM (no
nipple preference). I started expressing much more than she consumes
(leaving about 6-7oz/day to freeze).

We are now trying to transition from the machine to the breast and being
rather successful (turns out waiting for the mouth to grow was the best
advice I received). The problem is that DD has a strange eating pattern.
She usually nurses every 2-3h, and does not consume more than half the
expressed milk. However, once a day, in the evenings, she empties both
sides and then *devours* additional 4-5oz. The ravenous behavior
happens only once a day, but she is inconsolable if not offered the
additional portion. I tried offering her the empty breasts, over and over
again, but she refuses and screams uncontrollably.

This pattern was sustainable while I pumped, as there was always surplus
waiting, but if we move to exclusive nursing, what can I offer her during
that time? I noticed that the pumped side is starting to decrease its
supply (to accommodate her needs), so when she demands the additional
meal, it is not there.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I'm totally not an expert here, but I'll reply anyway. I'm sure others
will give you better information. From what I understand, your breasts are
never empty. Milk is made on demand. Sure, there is some storage in there,
but it's never empty. If your baby will suck with enough determination,
milk will be there. It sounds to me like your little one is used to
getting the instant gratification of the bottle and doesn't really want to
try a little harder to nurse from your breast instead of bottle when
she's really hungry. I pump a couple of times a day to build up a stash
for when I return to work. My unpredictable nursling often decides to eat
right after I just pumped and he always manages to fill up. Also, the pump
is far less effective than your baby - just because you're not able to
pump a large amount doesn't mean that your breast isn't capable of
providing that for your baby.

My son also eats a lot in the evening. I assume he's stockpiling to make
it through the night. He usually only nurses from one side at a time, but
at night he eats one side about every half an hour. In the 45 minutes
before he goes to bed, he eats 3 sides. I'd swear to you that there is
absolutely nothing in my breasts by that time, but he finds it somehow.


Manda

Hey, good for you for continuing to exclusively breastfeed through the
problems. I also had a baby whose mouth had to grow before I was able
to stop supplementing with pumped BM in bottles without causing
"nipple trauma" (don't you love that term?).

"trich" wrote

We are now trying to transition from the machine to the breast and being
rather successful (turns out waiting for the mouth to grow was the best
advice I received). The problem is that DD has a strange eating pattern.
She usually nurses every 2-3h, and does not consume more than half the
expressed milk. However, once a day, in the evenings, she empties both
sides and then *devours* additional 4-5oz. The ravenous behavior
happens only once a day, but she is inconsolable if not offered the
additional portion. I tried offering her the empty breasts, over and over
again, but she refuses and screams uncontrollably.

This pattern was sustainable while I pumped, as there was always surplus
waiting, but if we move to exclusive nursing, what can I offer her during
that time? I noticed that the pumped side is starting to decrease its
supply (to accommodate her needs), so when she demands the additional
meal, it is not there.

A thought: Just as your baby's mouth eventually got big enough to stop
traumatizing your nipples, so she will eventually grow out of that
evening "cluster feeding" you've described, which is *very* common in
newborns. I bet she will be over that by 3 months.

Since your baby is not suffering from any nipple confusion and she is
down (if I read you right) to only demanding that one bottle per day
to "top her off" in the evening, I might just continue to pump and
give it to her. Is it practical for you to do that? This would be
short-term.

But note that your breasts *will* increase the volume of milk they
make if your DD drinks more. That can mean a hairy day or two while
the baby's hunger has temporarily outgrown the breasts' current
capacity, but the breasts will "figure it out" quickly enough if given
the chance. I guess the problem for your DD is that she is ravenous at
that time of night and is used to having that hunger satiated FAST by,
first, milk pouring out of breasts chock full of milk and, then, milk
pouring our of a bottle chock full of milk. She isn't used to dealing
with what most BF babies deal with, which is the slower milk flow that
inevitably comes if you keep sucking even after a big "meal." I'm sure
that if you banned bottles, your DD and your breasts would come to
some agreement eventually, but I was never one to put up with crying
if there was a harmless way out.

"trich" wrote in message
news:fOznb.39818$ao4.84108@attbi_s51...
However, once a day, in the evenings, she empties both
sides and then *devours* additional 4-5oz. The ravenous behavior
happens only once a day, but she is inconsolable if not offered the
additional portion. I tried offering her the empty breasts, over and over
again, but she refuses and screams uncontrollably.

Trich,

Congratulations on improving your "peformance" and sticking with
breastfeeding!

It does sound like bottle preference. This was not my son's problem, but he
did go through a period of screaming and refusing the breast when he was 1-2
months old. My solution was to find other ways to calm him and then relatch
later when he was feeling sleepier, or at least a little more mellow.

Could you try walking with her, wearing her, driving in the car, singing to
her, letting her suck on your pinky--nail side down--or doing whatever you
can to calm her? Meanwhile your breasts "reload," she has blown off steam
and *might* be ready to latch on and cause another letdown.

There's just nothing worse for inhibiting a letdown than trying to latch an
inconsolable baby. Time to move on to Plan B until the uncomfortable moment
passes.

If you stop offering her the bottle, she'll stop insisting after a while ;-)

Let me know how it goes.

Beth

I initially gave supplements and expressed breast milk to my baby, and
boy my favorite time to give them was that night-time feeding frenzy.
When I was quitting pumping and supplementing my baby was on the
breast for 3 - 5 hours in the evening. I would just keep switching
her back and forth when I quit hearing the swallowing to keep the milk
flowing. When it hit 11 PM I would put her in the swing, and alot of
times that was all it took to get her to sleep. I had read before
that people mistakenly think the baby wants more to eat when they are
just crabby, but the baby passes out after given a big bottle, so
people think the bottle was what they needed. So perhaps try a swing.

But, she probably has just grown used to getting that evening food
easy rather than working for it for hours from your breast.

Good luck,
KC -
buy or rent Whittlestone Breast Expressers at:
http://www.alittlestore.com


"trich" wrote in message news:fOznb.39818$ao4.84108@attbi_s51...
I apologize for the length, I searched the archives but could not find
an answer to our predicament.

DD is 7w today and is BM-fed exclusively. I had a very difficult time
in the first couple of weeks w/ one side (cracked and bleeding nipples,
mastitis and very low supply - 0.3oz per 20min pumping w/ PIS). The
other side was fine, no latching problems.

I rented a hospital grade pump and used it on the left side, waiting for
her jaws and mouth to grow. The hospital pump did wonders to my
supply - in two weeks of exclusive pumping, it went from 0.3oz to 2-3oz
per 10min. During that time, I nursed DD on one side, the machine on
the other. When DD finished nursing, she received a bottle of EBM (no
nipple preference). I started expressing much more than she consumes
(leaving about 6-7oz/day to freeze).

We are now trying to transition from the machine to the breast and being
rather successful (turns out waiting for the mouth to grow was the best
advice I received). The problem is that DD has a strange eating pattern.
She usually nurses every 2-3h, and does not consume more than half the
expressed milk. However, once a day, in the evenings, she empties both
sides and then *devours* additional 4-5oz. The ravenous behavior
happens only once a day, but she is inconsolable if not offered the
additional portion. I tried offering her the empty breasts, over and over
again, but she refuses and screams uncontrollably.

This pattern was sustainable while I pumped, as there was always surplus
waiting, but if we move to exclusive nursing, what can I offer her during
that time? I noticed that the pumped side is starting to decrease its
supply (to accommodate her needs), so when she demands the additional
meal, it is not there.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
t.

trich wrote:
The ravenous behavior happens only once a day, but she is
inconsolable if not offered the additional portion. I tried offering
her the empty breasts, over and over again, but she refuses and
screams uncontrollably.


She's not rejecting the breast because it's empty. Breasts do not empty.
She's rejecting the breast because she prefers the bottle.

--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net
"i have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
i do not think that they will sing to me."

"iphigenia" wrote in message ...
trich wrote:
The ravenous behavior happens only once a day, but she is
inconsolable if not offered the additional portion. I tried offering
her the empty breasts, over and over again, but she refuses and
screams uncontrollably.


She's not rejecting the breast because it's empty. Breasts do not empty.
She's rejecting the breast because she prefers the bottle.

She's probably hit a growth spurt at 7 weeks as well.

Kristi

Congratulations on improving your "performance" and sticking with
breastfeeding!

Yep, performance anxiety all over ;-)

Could you try walking with her, wearing her, driving in the car, singing
to her, letting her suck on your pinky--nail side down--or doing
whatever you can to calm her?

I thought I was doing it, but I'll give it another try.

There's just nothing worse for inhibiting a letdown than trying to latch
an inconsolable baby.

I keep telling her she's frightening the breasts ;-)

A funny moment this morning. E. has not seen her nursing twin,
the Machine, in 24h. This morning, I had to use it as my nipple
was starting to ache, again (sigh, sigh, sigh!). I put her in her
bouncy seat near the bed and started pumping. The moment
I turned on the Machine, she turned her head to it, started smiling
and jumping w/ excitement while talking to it (ah... oh.... eh).

So easy to condition them! ;-)

t.

Nevermind wrote:
without causing "nipple trauma" (don't you love that term?).

Oh, yes! ;-)

Seriously, it was very traumatic. I *bawled* every time DD nursed,
and once my nipple was cracked, I sobbed when pumping, too (until
one pumps dark pink milk, one has no idea what horrific pain those
"traumatized nipples" can cause).

t.

iphigenia wrote:
She's not rejecting the breast because it's empty. Breasts do
not empty.

See, I'm not convinced about that. True, milk is being produced
constantly, but for a certain period of time - which is different for
every woman - the amount present is miniscule. I know it both by
looking at the pattern w/ the pump (and I'm not convinced that
hospital grade pumps are less efficient than babies) and listening
carefully to the swallowing sounds. From both observations, it is
clear to me that my breast empty within 10-15min, and then it
takes about 15-20min for very small amounts to start coming
out again.

She's rejecting the breast because she prefers the bottle.

If she has a preference, it seems to be the breast. Most times,
it is a minor battle to get her to take the bottle. It is only during
that time in the evening that she takes it w/o first rejecting it
several times.

I think about myself, I do not eat consistently throughout the
day, not even remotely. I can go for hours w/o eating and
then devour 1,000 calories at once (this is not an exaggeration).
Granted, DD's systems are in a different state of maturity, but
I wonder if some of our eating patterns and preferences are
not genetic predispositions.

t.