Dealing with bully behavior

You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"

Wow. A couple of posts and not only can you diagnose her son better than her
doctors, you can diagnose her.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:15:58 +0100, "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie
wrote:

You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"

Dennis

Dennis, CAPD is very real, learning disabilities are very real and
what I'm seeing is a mother who's trying very hard to figure out how
her son's mind works, in order to support and effectively parent him.

Why would that warrant an insult?

Cele

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:15:30 +0100, "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie
wrote:


"Cele" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie
wrote:


"Istara" wrote in message
Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,

Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
possibilities.
Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.


Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Yeah, drop the lot.

Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
*inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics?

No, I am not saying that.

For a kid with *true*
ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.

I merely pointed out that an ADHD diagnosis was not possible in Ireland for
a child of that age. I have said why on other occasions over the years. On
that basis, any drug to treat ADHD woud be inaprpriate.

You also said, "Better not to drug young children but look for other
alternatives." It's that which resulted in my response. I have no idea
what goes on in Ireland. However, while there may be some formal
restriction on whether or not a doctor can apply a diagnosis (although
that would be highly unlikely in a developed country, but hey, as I
said, I don't know boom all about Ireland), that doesn't mean doctors
don't make the diagnosis. It only means they don't write it down. If a
qualified medical professional examines a child and decides the best
Dx is ADHD, you can bet s/he treats on that basis, whatever name is
applied.

For a long time in education in North America we weren't allowed to
use the word 'phonics'. It wasn't the bandwagon of the moment. But
every flipping competent teacher in both English speaking countries
taught phonics. They just called it something else until the pendulum
swung back.

*Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.

Like I said.

Dennis

No. It would be inappropriate to treat a child without ADHD using ADHD
drugs. Whether or not some government recognises a medical condition
doesn't change whether it exists and warrants treatment or not. There
was a time not so long ago when very few doctors recognised a physical
cause for allergies. Allergies were seen as a 'neurotic disorder'. A
few enlightened souls started treating them for physical genesis,
though, and in 1968, I believe it was, histamine release was
discovered. Darned if those guys earlier on hadn't been right - there
IS a physical cause. And now it's medically managed as such. Those
early folks weren't treating allergies with medication inappropriately
just because the majority of their colleagues hadn't yet recognised
the reality of the situation.

Cele

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:36:02 -0400, Istara
wrote:



Purchgdss wrote:
Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes

snipped for space

Thanks in advance.

~ Dor


If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
extensively.


I've been wondering a little bit about the ADHD diagnosis, recently. He
actually does display many/most of the "classic" symptoms - inability to
concentrate/focus for extended periods of time, inability to sit still
for any appreciable period, etc. According to the pediatrician, when we
started him on the medication for it, she said it would either make a
world of difference overnight, if he truly WAS ADHD, or it would make no
apparent difference whatsoever, if he wasn't. It made such a difference
the first day he took it that he commented on it himself when he got
home from school (he was 7, at the time, in first grade).

That's my understanding as well. Be very awa I'm not a doctor or
medical professional, so anything I say is just opinion, same as
anyone else. I've been a special educator for 25 years and have seen a
bit, for whatever that's worth. I also have a daughter with some
exceptionalities.

I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that
they're running at a very high gear all the time, and the meds take
them to a more typical and manageable pace. ADHD meds were, last I
looked, stimulants. The typical reaction to stimulants, of course, is
to be highly stimulated. Sensitized to everything around you. On edge,
even. But kids with ADHD, for a reason not fully understood, have
neurology that responds in the opposite way to certain stimulants;
that is, the meds slow them down, or calm them. So if a child responds
to, for example, ritalin, by calming....for a long time, that in and
of itself tended to confirm the diagnosis. Whereas the child who
reacted to ritalin with agitation, or tantrums, or whatever, had some
other problem. This may have changed; I work with a different
population at the moment, but that's what I know was the situation a
very few years ago.

Recently, though, *I* was diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing
Disorder. I did some research on APDs, of course, and found that they
are frequently mis-diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in children, due to a
similarity in symptoms - it's difficult and frustrating to try to focus
on something in school when you can't always understand what the teacher
is saying, and children with CAPDs frequently have high intelligence but
accompanied by low-level learning disorders such as mild dyslexia or
discalcula (sp?).

Dyscalcula. :-)

They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
snack, walk around the room, etc.

People with CAPD and no other difficulties attend quite well visually.
They can read for hours if they like the story. If they're in a small,
quiet room, such as a testing room, with a single adult and no fan
noise, they do just fine. But give them the same test in a room full
of people with a fan running and some noise from some lights overhead
and a bit of cafeteria clang in the background, and their results
plummet.

What can make diagnosis especially challenging, though (I also have
certification as a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing, so I've
had a bit of extra exposure on this one), is that some people with
CAPD have additional difficulties that, combined with the CAPD, can
make them trickier to figure out. Especially if the CAPD is caused by
some neurologic insult, the same thing can affect other systems. And
of course, it's certainly possible to have both CAPD and ADHD. So the
whole figuring thing is challenging at times. That's where parental
and teacher observations, when done with some knowledge and care, can
really help pin things down. I applaud you for informing yourself and
thinking it all over so carefully. God help the child whose parents
can't or won't pay that kind of attention. Those are the guys who
really struggle as adults.

He does play video games a lot, if allowed - they are his dad's favorite
hobby, and I think he sort of sees it as a way to connect with his dad.
Truthfully, Dad didn't really spend a lot of time with him until he got
to an age where he was able to do stuff that interested Dad - like
playing video games. Drives me nuts to see him (my son) playing them,
sometimes, because it's not at all unusual to walk into his room when he
has his "freetime" to find the TV going on a show, the radio/CD player
going on the other side of the room, and him sprawled in the floor
playing his Gameboy. And he, supposedly, is paying attention to all
three at the same time. *I* can't pull that one off - although I'm
coming to realize that it may be due more to my CAPD than to it being
really difficult for a 'normal' person to do(?), but he seems to thrive
on it.

An awful lot of kids of this generation seem to be able to do that,
whether or not they're having any difficulties with school or
emotions. In and of itself, I'm not sure how much it tells you. I can
tell you though, that as an adult myself, when I'm seriously, deeply,
long term stressed, I tend to play mindless arcade games. What they do
for me is to shut down several of my mental 'tracks' and allow me to
drift into a place where I can concentrate on the problem. So for me,
in a bizarre kind of way, I guess it's almost a form of meditation.
Whether that has any applicability to anyone else, I leave the reader
to assess. :-)

Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
be a GOOD thing).

Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.

Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.

You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
you can reassure him that YOU are in control.

I agree with Christine that you're doing well to be firm and
consistent. Nothing you described seemed excessive to me. I think it's
that kind of firm parenting, administered with love, of course, that
helps kids know who's in control. Many of the kids I've seen who are
behaviourally out of control are in fact very scared children; they
know darned well that they have too much power for their own good.
They seem to feel unprotected - 'If Mom/Dad can't handle *me*, how
will they keep me safe from bad things?' So I think you're on the
right track.

I agree also that bullying *can* be a sign of insecurity. It can also
be the sign of a kid who thinks power is the way to have his wants
realised. Those are basically the two kinds we tend to see in my line
of work. Oh, there's also lack of self control, but that's kind of a
subset of one or the other, really, except in cases of significant
brain damage. Assuming we're talking about premeditated bullying here,
rather than just explosions with shrapnel. Anyway, sounds like yours
is more likely the first situation than the second, alright.

Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

Your two cents are at least a dollar's worth of things to think about. :-)

Fourth grade, in our school, is REALLY different from third - they are
changing classes for different subjects, for the first time, and are
required to be very organized, keeping everything in specific order in
their notebooks for each class, etc. I'm suspecting that this, with the
other stuff at home, may be contributing to the problems.

Grade four is a watershed year for a *lot* of kids. I can't tell you
how many referrals are initiated in around October or November of the
grade four year. In English speaking North America, that's when things
get much more academic, and the kids are expected to have their basic
skills, including structures they've been taught over the past three
years. It's also not uncommon for specialist teachers in some subjects
to surface for the first time in that year's programming. So while it
might not make you feel any better, you've got a *lot* of company.

I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the years,
I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a family (8
kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house (3 bedrooms),
so was used to things always being cluttered up from too little space.
Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does get pretty
clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have a ways to go.

I bet you learned a lot about keeping perspective and social dynamics,
though. :-)

What I'm getting out of your 2 cents is to keep doing what I'm doing
(regardless what my Mom thinks of me being 'so strict' :-) ), keep
trying to improve my own organizational skills and help him learn them,
and keep spending as much time as I can with him. And check into getting
him evaluated for the APD, once I have medical insurance again to cover
the cost. Yes?

I'm not Christine, but hell, yeah, that's what I'd say, too. I
wouldn't go nuts with the organisational skills. Do your best, but
don't take it to a place where it's adding crazy making stress. That
won't help. I'm a bit like you, in that I'm a natural scatterbrain (I
prefer to think of it as the absent minded professor syndrome, even if
I don't have a PhD yet! LOL) and I also have a daughter with assorted
learning difficulties. Instead of trying exclusively to change my own
well entrenched patterns, I also taught her some self organisation
skills that I have learned to save my ass from complete incompetency
at work. :-) So now she, like me, is a listmaker, and she puts things
that have to go to school in front of the bedroom door where she'll
trip over them so she won't forget them, and so forth. That way, while
I tried to give her a bit more structure than came naturally to me,
she also learned some skills to cope with life as it is.

Thanks for the observations - I know I don't always have a balanced view
of discipline with my son, and it helps to get other people's
opinions/ovservations from time to time. My Dad (birth as opposed to
step) was an extremely domineering sort with a very heavy hand, and I
have a tendency to err on the over-lenient side in trying to avoid being
harmfully harsh, like he was. But I'm also acutely aware that a parent
can do more harm than good by being TOO lenient, too. It's not an easy
balance to find, for me.

If you ever find a parent who tells you that's a piece of cake, I'll
show you a bald faced liar. :-) Or the parent of a child not yet out
of diapers. Anyway, your earlier description of your discipline
sounded about right to me.

I try to avoid spankings, for instance, whenever possible, but have set
rules about when my son WILL get one - such as for fighting in school
(except in self defense), or when he pulls something that could be
dangerous to himself or others. And I've made sure he knows what will
get him spanked. The rare times he breaks one of the 'spanking rules', I
think my son gets more upset about the IDEA of getting a spanking than
about the actual spanking itself - because I usually end up crying right
along with him, the whole time I'm 'administering justice'. I won't use
anything but my hand on his backside - it would be too easy to do injury
any other way, as I saw more than once as a child - but it's still
upsetting.

I sometimes wish kids came with Owners' Manuals, you know? It would sure
make them easier to raise. Maybe. :-) Thanks again.

Oh yeah. But mine would've needed quite a few volumes...and they'd've
been awfully heavy.....

LOL

Good luck.

Cele

denanson wrote:
"Istara" wrote in message


I've been thinking about how to respond to Dennis's observation...


But this reply is to Celia's post.


Yep. Primarily because I had been thinking about your post while reading
hers, and was responding to both.



I'm pretty well convinced that my son does have ADHD, at least
mild-to-moderately. Our pediatrician is of a "wait and see" mind on
non-critical issues, does NOT like to over-medicate a child, and has
been very picky and fussy about my son's diagnosis and treatment. We
keep a regular watch on his behavior at school and home, so that we can
spot any sudden or unexplained changes in behavior that might (or might
not) be related to the ADHD, and especially so since his dad and I
separated.

I did NOT want to medicate him, initially - I'd heard of and observed
some pretty disturbing side effects from some of the drugs used for it.
But... My youngest brother was/is ADHD, my son's dad has ADD, and it
does tend to 'run' in families. According to what I've read over the
last couple of years, a child is something like 30% more likely than
average to have either one of these disorders if one parent has it in
their immediate family (as with one of their siblings) and can be as
much as 50-60% more likely than average to have it if both parents have
it in the immediate family, or if one of the child's parents has the
disorder.

The particular medication my son is on is a fairly low-dosage extended
release med, taken once a day, and it's out of his system again within
10-12 hours. I've noticed none of the side-effects I saw in my brother,
20 years ago, or even in the neighbor's grandson (my son's age, on a
different med), the past year or two - not even mildly. And, according
to the pediatrician, the stuff would have made him MORE
exciteable/emotional/etc. if he did NOT have ADHD. Instead, it's taken
just enough of the edge off for him to be able to stay in focus and on
task for 'normal' time periods. Doesn't seem to really have reduced his
energy much, just gives his self-control a little 'oomph'.

Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.


You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"


Possibly, to someone who doesn't know me well. Then again, *you* don't,
do you?

I'm not a doctor of any sort, nor a college graduate, nor much of
anything (yet) beyond a career housewife and mother still learning how
to be an independent, responsible family provider and single parent.
But I HAVE spent much of my adult life studying folk medicine, biology,
zoology, and several other 'ology' subjects as hobby interests. And my
personal physician, once you'd shown him a picture and had him pull my
file in order to remind him of who I am, would probably laugh at your
"hypochondiac" diagnosis. He sees me once a year for a general check-up
- mainly because he sends me postcards to remind me that it's time for
them - and *might* see me about once every three years for illness or
injury. When he DOES see me for something out of the ordinary, he's
learned that my judgement about my health is usually bang on and all
he's doing is confirming whatever I've already figured the problem to be
and prescribing treatment for it because I haven't the authority to do
so for myself.

As far as treatment for my son goes, or my potential for encouraging him
to be a hypochondriac by example... He's been in public school for five
years, now, with the school year split into quarters. He's missed
perfect attendance awards three times out of twenty during those five
years and last week, for the FIRST time, the school nurse had to call me
to come pick him up for a stomach ache. She was genuinely concerned
because my son is one of the few children in the school that she has
never seen before for anything other than the normal screenings that
they do in her office on ALL children.

It turned out that the stomach ache was apparently from stress. His
teachers and the school administrator had made such a big deal out of
the bullying thing that he psyched himself into 'tummy troubles.'

BTW... It turns out, after talking to the kids - both my son and the
other boy involved in the 'bullying' incident - that the two boys had
just gotten into a verbal tiff with each other, and exchanged "I don't
like you anymore, leave me alone or I'll hit you" threats, in the boys'
bathroom. Teacher walked in about the time my son was giving his half of
the exchange, didn't catch the other boy's part, and sent my son for
write-up on it. The boys have since apologized to each other, without
grown-up prompting, the other boy admitting it was as much his fault as
my son's and that he'd done as much 'picking on' as he got, and they're
best buddies again.

Dennis


You're entitled to your own opinions, and I did ask for them. So thank
you for giving yours. My only request is, next time, try to be more
considered and less personally aggressive about it? Or, if you have to
be nasty about it, try to at least get enough background to make the
nastiness on target. Attack the facts, not the person. Works better that
way.

~ Dor

And my
personal physician, once you'd shown him a picture and had him pull my
file in order to remind him of who I am, would probably laugh at your
"hypochondiac" diagnosis.

Hi Dor, one thing you should learn here quick is that you really don't need to
defend yourself against accusations like the above. Actually you don't need to
defend yourself, period.

You gotta take all the advice here for what's its worth. If it fits, good. If
it doesn't fit, throw it out. If a LOT of people are saying the same thing and
you don't like it, you might want to step back and think about it. But if one
guy throws out "hypocondriac"...well it will help if you get to know Dennis, he
has some good advice but he also has a particular world view and anything that
doesn't fit his world view, well it doesn't exist.

But a general rule of thumb, defending yourself is either unnecesary or
useless. :-)

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

Cele wrote:

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:28:03 -0400, Istara
wrote:

[snipping carefully thought out, well reasoned post to which I have
little to add....]


Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

~ Dor


It's extremely well established in the research that CAPD is much more
prevalent in kids with significant histories of recurrent ear
infections. Even without the other factors you describe, all of which
are well worth considering, if he's ever had tubes, CAPD is definitely
something to check.

Cele

He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes" which,
according to the ENT, are semi-permanent. Went a year between each set,
hoping he'd outgrown the problem that made them necessary to begin with,
but each time was just a year of almost constant ear infections and
fluid build-up problems.

I know he's "hyper" - he's responded too well to the ADHD med for me to
doubt it, but some of the emotional outbursts I see in him even still
are really similar to stuff I remember from my own childhood. It COULD
be due to the ADHD, but it could as easily be due to simple
misunderstanding of what was said or intended.

I have a lot of trouble telling when someone is joking, at times, if
there is no obvious "punch line" or I don't know the person well enough
to be able to read their facial expressions. I used to get hurt feelings
a LOT as a child, because of it, and it was always put off as me just
being too emotional or overly sensitive. Now my son is getting into
trouble because he's "overly sensitive" to what other people say, and
too emotional, supposedly because he has ADHD.

Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure, it
won't hurt him a bit, and I'd rather be proven wrong and overreacting
than not have it checked and eventually have my son find out when he's
40 that he has a CAPD that could have been diagnosed and dealt with
early on. It would have made MY life a lot easier to know about it early
on, that there was a physical cause for my always misunderstanding what
people said and/or meant, instead of spending so many years thinking
there was just "something wrong with me" in a psychological or emotional
sense. It plays hell with a person's self-esteem.

Thanks for the observations and suggestions - they're all appreciated.

~ Dor

Cele wrote:

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:36:02 -0400, Istara
wrote:



Purchgdss wrote:

Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes

snipped for space

Thanks in advance.

~ Dor


If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
extensively.


I've been wondering a little bit about the ADHD diagnosis, recently. He
actually does display many/most of the "classic" symptoms - inability to
concentrate/focus for extended periods of time, inability to sit still
for any appreciable period, etc. According to the pediatrician, when we
started him on the medication for it, she said it would either make a
world of difference overnight, if he truly WAS ADHD, or it would make no
apparent difference whatsoever, if he wasn't. It made such a difference
the first day he took it that he commented on it himself when he got
home from school (he was 7, at the time, in first grade).


That's my understanding as well. Be very awa I'm not a doctor or
medical professional, so anything I say is just opinion, same as
anyone else. I've been a special educator for 25 years and have seen a
bit, for whatever that's worth. I also have a daughter with some
exceptionalities.

I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that

They were evaluated daily for conduct, on a color scale. Green for a
good day, no problems; Yellow for a day when they got reprimanded once
for something but were otherwise okay; Red for two reprimands and they
lost recess time; black for major infractions that warranted being sent
to the principal's office. The way he put it, that first day, was, "Mom,
this Green Day medicine is GREAT! I had green all day, I got all my
class work done, and the teacher said she thought I was glued to my
chair 'cause I didn't fidget much all day!"

they're running at a very high gear all the time, and the meds take
them to a more typical and manageable pace. ADHD meds were, last I
looked, stimulants. The typical reaction to stimulants, of course, is
to be highly stimulated. Sensitized to everything around you. On edge,
even. But kids with ADHD, for a reason not fully understood, have
neurology that responds in the opposite way to certain stimulants;
that is, the meds slow them down, or calm them. So if a child responds
to, for example, ritalin, by calming....for a long time, that in and
of itself tended to confirm the diagnosis. Whereas the child who
reacted to ritalin with agitation, or tantrums, or whatever, had some
other problem. This may have changed; I work with a different
population at the moment, but that's what I know was the situation a
very few years ago.

This is still the way it is. The pediatrician said the diagnosis would
be considered tentative until we saw how he reacted to the meds, but
that it would be obvious within a day or two whether it was right or
wrong, by his behavior.

Recently, though, *I* was diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing
Disorder. I did some research on APDs, of course, and found that they
are frequently mis-diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in children, due to a
similarity in symptoms - it's difficult and frustrating to try to focus
on something in school when you can't always understand what the teacher
is saying, and children with CAPDs frequently have high intelligence but
accompanied by low-level learning disorders such as mild dyslexia or
discalcula (sp?).


Dyscalcula. :-)

Thank you. :-) I knew I had it mis-spelled, but wasn't sure how. To me,
it's always been the "pocket calculator syndrome." The one in my head
works better than the one I have to punch with my fingers, because my
fingers sometimes don't punch the numbers my brain says they should.
Remove the fingers' involvement, and the calculator works just fine.


They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
snack, walk around the room, etc.

This is my son to a T.


People with CAPD and no other difficulties attend quite well visually.
They can read for hours if they like the story. If they're in a small,
quiet room, such as a testing room, with a single adult and no fan
noise, they do just fine. But give them the same test in a room full
of people with a fan running and some noise from some lights overhead
and a bit of cafeteria clang in the background, and their results
plummet.

And, yes, this is me. :-) Overhead flourescent lights are very
irritating to me, even more so than background conversations, at times.
Conversations have pauses, but the stupid lights just go right on
buzzing and buzzing. Did you know that a flourescent light with a bad
ballast buzzes at almost exactly the same pitch as an "Eye of the Storm"
plasma light, for about 24 hours before the ballast goes out? :-)


What can make diagnosis especially challenging, though (I also have
certification as a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing, so I've
had a bit of extra exposure on this one), is that some people with
CAPD have additional difficulties that, combined with the CAPD, can
make them trickier to figure out. Especially if the CAPD is caused by
some neurologic insult, the same thing can affect other systems. And
of course, it's certainly possible to have both CAPD and ADHD. So the
whole figuring thing is challenging at times. That's where parental
and teacher observations, when done with some knowledge and care, can
really help pin things down. I applaud you for informing yourself and
thinking it all over so carefully. God help the child whose parents
can't or won't pay that kind of attention. Those are the guys who
really struggle as adults.


He does play video games a lot, if allowed - they are his dad's favorite
hobby, and I think he sort of sees it as a way to connect with his dad.
Truthfully, Dad didn't really spend a lot of time with him until he got
to an age where he was able to do stuff that interested Dad - like
playing video games. Drives me nuts to see him (my son) playing them,
sometimes, because it's not at all unusual to walk into his room when he
has his "freetime" to find the TV going on a show, the radio/CD player
going on the other side of the room, and him sprawled in the floor
playing his Gameboy. And he, supposedly, is paying attention to all
three at the same time. *I* can't pull that one off - although I'm
coming to realize that it may be due more to my CAPD than to it being
really difficult for a 'normal' person to do(?), but he seems to thrive
on it.


An awful lot of kids of this generation seem to be able to do that,
whether or not they're having any difficulties with school or
emotions. In and of itself, I'm not sure how much it tells you. I can
tell you though, that as an adult myself, when I'm seriously, deeply,
long term stressed, I tend to play mindless arcade games. What they do
for me is to shut down several of my mental 'tracks' and allow me to
drift into a place where I can concentrate on the problem. So for me,
in a bizarre kind of way, I guess it's almost a form of meditation.
Whether that has any applicability to anyone else, I leave the reader
to assess. :-)


Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
be a GOOD thing).

Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.

Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.

You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
you can reassure him that YOU are in control.


I agree with Christine that you're doing well to be firm and
consistent. Nothing you described seemed excessive to me. I think it's
that kind of firm parenting, administered with love, of course, that
helps kids know who's in control. Many of the kids I've seen who are
behaviourally out of control are in fact very scared children; they
know darned well that they have too much power for their own good.
They seem to feel unprotected - 'If Mom/Dad can't handle *me*, how
will they keep me safe from bad things?' So I think you're on the
right track.

I agree also that bullying *can* be a sign of insecurity. It can also
be the sign of a kid who thinks power is the way to have his wants
realised. Those are basically the two kinds we tend to see in my line
of work. Oh, there's also lack of self control, but that's kind of a
subset of one or the other, really, except in cases of significant
brain damage. Assuming we're talking about premeditated bullying here,
rather than just explosions with shrapnel. Anyway, sounds like yours
is more likely the first situation than the second, alright.

After a lot of talking with my son, what the school immediately termed
"bullying" looks to me like just a spat between two friends, blown all
out of proportion by the adults around them. When I finally managed to
get him to tell me his views of what happened, a couple of days after
the incident, he says that he and the other boy had been picking at each
other for days, and finally got to the point where they were both
telling each other "I don't like you anymore. Leave me alone or I'll
punch you." And a teacher walked into the boys' bathroom just in time to
hear my son say this to the other boy, after the other boy had said it
to him. Both boys, without prompting from adults, apologized to each
other this week, the other boy admitted to my son that it was as much
his own fault because he was picking too, and they're now best buddies
again.


Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

Your two cents are at least a dollar's worth of things to think about. :-)

Fourth grade, in our school, is REALLY different from third - they are
changing classes for different subjects, for the first time, and are
required to be very organized, keeping everything in specific order in
their notebooks for each class, etc. I'm suspecting that this, with the
other stuff at home, may be contributing to the problems.


Grade four is a watershed year for a *lot* of kids. I can't tell you
how many referrals are initiated in around October or November of the
grade four year. In English speaking North America, that's when things
get much more academic, and the kids are expected to have their basic
skills, including structures they've been taught over the past three
years. It's also not uncommon for specialist teachers in some subjects
to surface for the first time in that year's programming. So while it
might not make you feel any better, you've got a *lot* of company.


I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the years,
I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a family (8
kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house (3 bedrooms),
so was used to things always being cluttered up from too little space.
Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does get pretty
clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have a ways to go.


I bet you learned a lot about keeping perspective and social dynamics,
though. :-)

Oh yeah! And non-injurious methods of discouraging younger siblings from
digging into one's personal belongings. I still keep cayenne pepper in
the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
recently with the dog) as for cooking! (snicker)


What I'm getting out of your 2 cents is to keep doing what I'm doing
(regardless what my Mom thinks of me being 'so strict' :-) ), keep
trying to improve my own organizational skills and help him learn them,
and keep spending as much time as I can with him. And check into getting
him evaluated for the APD, once I have medical insurance again to cover
the cost. Yes?


I'm not Christine, but hell, yeah, that's what I'd say, too. I
wouldn't go nuts with the organisational skills. Do your best, but
don't take it to a place where it's adding crazy making stress. That
won't help. I'm a bit like you, in that I'm a natural scatterbrain (I
prefer to think of it as the absent minded professor syndrome, even if
I don't have a PhD yet! LOL) and I also have a daughter with assorted
learning difficulties. Instead of trying exclusively to change my own
well entrenched patterns, I also taught her some self organisation
skills that I have learned to save my ass from complete incompetency
at work. :-)

The heck of it is, I'm so orderly and organized at work, it's almost
scary. If things aren't exactly where they should be, so that I can just
reach out and pick up whatever I need without having to look where I'm
reaching, I get aggravated and KNOW someone's been messing around in my
work area. At home, though... You'd never know the same person lived in
my house as worked in my work area. As efficient and organized as I am
at work, I am that much inefficient and disorganized at home, I think.
And I've never been able to really figure out WHY - you'd think a person
would be pretty much the same at home as at work, wouldn't you?

So now she, like me, is a listmaker, and she puts things
that have to go to school in front of the bedroom door where she'll
trip over them so she won't forget them, and so forth. That way, while
I tried to give her a bit more structure than came naturally to me,
she also learned some skills to cope with life as it is.


I've finally gotten my son into the habit of putting his schoolbag and
shoes right next to the front door every evening, so it's right there
where it can't be missed in the morning. He gets "reward points" for
doing it without having to be reminded, then can trade points in for
things like renting a video or getting McDonald's for supper, when he
has enough. It's a new system, his dad and I have been working out as we
go along, and seems to be helping somewhat.


Thanks for the observations - I know I don't always have a balanced view
of discipline with my son, and it helps to get other people's
opinions/ovservations from time to time. My Dad (birth as opposed to
step) was an extremely domineering sort with a very heavy hand, and I
have a tendency to err on the over-lenient side in trying to avoid being
harmfully harsh, like he was. But I'm also acutely aware that a parent
can do more harm than good by being TOO lenient, too. It's not an easy
balance to find, for me.


If you ever find a parent who tells you that's a piece of cake, I'll
show you a bald faced liar. :-) Or the parent of a child not yet out
of diapers. Anyway, your earlier description of your discipline
sounded about right to me.


I try to avoid spankings, for instance, whenever possible, but have set
rules about when my son WILL get one - such as for fighting in school
(except in self defense), or when he pulls something that could be
dangerous to himself or others. And I've made sure he knows what will
get him spanked. The rare times he breaks one of the 'spanking rules', I
think my son gets more upset about the IDEA of getting a spanking than
about the actual spanking itself - because I usually end up crying right
along with him, the whole time I'm 'administering justice'. I won't use
anything but my hand on his backside - it would be too easy to do injury
any other way, as I saw more than once as a child - but it's still
upsetting.

I sometimes wish kids came with Owners' Manuals, you know? It would sure
make them easier to raise. Maybe. :-) Thanks again.


Oh yeah. But mine would've needed quite a few volumes...and they'd've
been awfully heavy.....

LOL

Good luck.

Cele

Thanks. I think we'll be okay - I just get the vapors sometimes and
start doubting myself. I've been too used to having someone else "in
control" of things, and am still learning to trust my own judgement on
stuff. I'm getting better at it, and even negative comments help - they
remind me that I shouldn't take things too seriously sometimes. :-)

~ Dor

"Istara" wrote in message

Some snipped

I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that

They were evaluated daily for conduct, on a color scale. Green for a
good day, no problems; Yellow for a day when they got reprimanded once
for something but were otherwise okay; Red for two reprimands and they
lost recess time; black for major infractions that warranted being sent
to the principal's office. The way he put it, that first day, was, "Mom,
this Green Day medicine is GREAT! I had green all day, I got all my
class work done, and the teacher said she thought I was glued to my
chair 'cause I didn't fidget much all day!"

Are you seriously trying to say that a school teacher had major input into
what and how much medication should be taken?
Who decides what is "good" behavior and on what basis is it judged?
What warrents a reprimand?
Sheesh! A crap inificient teacher who has no control over a class of normal,
active 9 year olds gets to increase their medication?

This is still the way it is. The pediatrician said the diagnosis would
be considered tentative until we saw how he reacted to the meds, but
that it would be obvious within a day or two whether it was right or
wrong, by his behavior.

********! If the child is drugged up their behaviour is bound to change.

They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
snack, walk around the room, etc.

This is my son to a T.

Not what you said before. You said he sits in front of a computer game for
hours.
I think that you may be changing your story to suit the "diagnosis"


they were both
telling each other "I don't like you anymore. Leave me alone or I'll
punch you." And a teacher walked into the boys' bathroom just in time to
hear my son say this to the other boy,

Was it the same teacher who wants to drug your child?


I still keep cayenne pepper in
the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
recently with the dog)

And someone thinks your son is a bully?
I wonder where he might have learnt it.


At home, though... You'd never know the same person lived in
my house as worked in my work area. As efficient and organized as I am
at work, I am that much inefficient and disorganized at home,

and then

I've finally gotten my son into the habit of putting his schoolbag and
shoes right next to the front door every evening, so it's right there
where it can't be missed in the morning. He gets "reward points" for
doing it without having to be reminded, then can trade points in for
things like renting a video or getting McDonald's for supper,

Why should he when, in your own words, you live in a "disorganised" and
"inefficient" home environment.
Why not lead by example then you can just ask your son to keep his school
bag and shoes in a particular place.
Again, who is the bully here?

Dennis

"Cele" wrote in message

Why would that warrant an insult?

You call that an insult?

Dennis