Those Deadly Tasers again

What "early dangerous sexual activity"
are you having paranoid delusions
about now, psycho?

Greegor wrote:
What "early dangerous sexual activity"
are you having paranoid delusions
about now, psycho?

Tsk tsk. You are hardling in a position to be name calling.

I suspect that has much more to do with The Question than with this
issue, but heck, you're a nice boy. I'll respond, just for you.

Among those things kids don't know about:

Tissue damage

STDs, including fatal ones

Then there is emotional attachments that can't really go anywhere.

Pregnancy for older girls. I've heard even 12 year olds are getting
pregnant these days.

And saying yes to an adult that decides he or she does not want to get
caught and decides that there should be no witnesses.

How'm I doing?

Paranoid, or factual? Eh?

As bobber says: you make this so easy.

Kane

Greegor wrote:
What "early dangerous sexual activity"
are you having paranoid delusions
about now, psycho?

Kane wrote
Tsk tsk. You are hardling in a position to be name calling.

"hardling"? What position are you mumbling about?

Greegor wrote:
Greegor wrote:
What "early dangerous sexual activity"
are you having paranoid delusions
about now, psycho?

Kane wrote
Tsk tsk. You are hardling in a position to be name calling.

"hardling"? What position are you mumbling about?

You are that incapacitated you don't recognise a typo when you see one,
and cannnot decipher what it meant?

In other words, greegor, rather than respond to my post, you critique
my form.

Nice one.

YOu did not respond to a single point I made, now did you?

You asked me a question and this time you were fool enough to leave it
in attributions.

"
Greegor wrote:
What "early dangerous sexual activity"
are you having paranoid delusions
about now, psycho?
"
So I answered your exactly question with a list of what I consider
"early dangerous sexual activity." Certainly not all possible, but a
list worth debate, if you could.

Can you, or may I assume that your response represents the only path
you think you have left in the face of your impotence?

Would you care to argue with me that any or all of my answers are not
"dangerous sexual activity" with bad outcomes for children?

Are you here to do anything other than rattle the bars of the cage you
have been building for yourself for 4 years here?

I'll give yah a little clue. If you think the lethal force question is
the only one I have, you are in for a long and uncomfortable ride.

So, you going to answer my response to your complaint that the question
was too complex for you, too "branching?"

Now that I've broken down the components, and given you carteblanche to
answer any or all, and even invited YOU to formulate the question in a
form YOU would approve of and in so doing, finally answer?

Anything, coward? Anything at all? Hell, even Fern had more guts than
you. despite the lack of intelligence, the utter stupidity, she at
least took her stand with courage. You are a cowardly wimp.

Kane

I just want you to know that the doofus you are referring to was someones
Husband and Father. He had a wife and 2 small sons. He was not a drug
addict or a criminal. He was a 32 year old man that did not deserve to
die. So get your facts straight you DOOFUS!!!

pudgy wrote:
I just want you to know that the doofus you are referring to was
someones
Husband and Father. He had a wife and 2 small sons. He was not a
drug
addict or a criminal. He was a 32 year old man that did not deserve
to
die. So get your facts straight you DOOFUS!!!

The man in the story that died was shown by the medical examiner to
have drugs in his system.
"
Polk County Rules Man's Death Not From Taser, But Drugs

POSTED: 3:26 pm EST March 15, 2005

AUBURNDALE, Fla. -- A 32-year-old man who died last year after a
sheriff's deputy subdued him with a Taser stun gun succumbed to a drug
withdrawal, not the electric jolt he received, a medical examiner
concluded.

Jason Yeagley of Auburndale, died from excited delirium, a condition
believed to be triggered by drug abuse. In Yeagley's case, it was
related to his withdrawal from the prescription drug Xanax, said Polk
County associate medical examiner Dr. Vera Volnikh.

The tussle he had with a sheriff's deputy heightened his excited
delirium, Volnikh said. Medical experts believe the condition is
brought on by drug abuse and paranoia, which heightens the heart rate
and can kill a person whose heart might be already weakened.
"

Now drug 'withdrawal' kind of negates any claim that he was just a one
time user.

And, more importantly, did you see anyone in this thread say that he
"deserved to die?"

Finally, ask yourself. Is the the only means of subduing a suspect that
cops used that can and has killed the suspect?

So far the data shows this method has a far lower incidence of
fatalities than other methods. Including simply grappling with and
cuffing the perp.

If you bother to research Taser, you will find that it has a miniscule
measure of shocking power compared to CP paddles. And it's not easy to
deliberately kill someone with the paddles.

Should someone be killed because they struggle with the police?

No, of course not.

Should police never struggle to subdue a suspect?

I'll let you answer that yourself.

And I'll pose one more question to you.

Do police usually know prior to taking suspect into custody, or trying
to, that they are loaded and or have dangerous health conditions?

And should they not still subdue the suspect if that IS known?

Your input was so spare as to suggest you had more on your mind.

If so, why not share more fully?

Kane

I would be happy to share more fully. Xanax was specifically mentioned as
the drug he was withdrawling from, which is a prescribed medication, so
for you to use the term "user" is inappropriate. And I do think that the
police should be trained to assess a situation more accurately before
using any weapon. Especially in this case where the man was not breaking
the law, had not broken the law, and was not harming anyone. And why do
you feel so strongly in support of the taser? Are you one of the people
making billions of dollars off of this so called non-lethal weapon? And
if there is the slightest possible that this weapon can kill someone that
does have medical conditions or is on psychotropic meds then it absolutely
should not be used. And it should not be used in schools across the
country either. So don't tell me to do my research when at least 30
people have died from this non-lethal weapon in the past 7 months!!! And
when you say it is a miniscule amount of shocking power, are you sure you
did your research? It is 50K volts of electricity and he was shot twice
!!! He would have been better off if she would have shot him in the leg to
subdue. At least he would still be alive and getting the help he needed
and his family would not be here suffering.

pudgy wrote:
I would be happy to share more fully. Xanax was specifically
mentioned as
the drug he was withdrawling from, which is a prescribed medication,
so
for you to use the term "user" is inappropriate.

Yah know, the identity of the substance as a prescription drug said
nothing about whether or not he'd obtained by perscription. Are you
familiar with the traffic in prescription drugs obtained illegally?

If you know more about this story, why not post the whole thing or cite
a link we can use to look at the full story ourselves?

Playing "teaser" in debate leaves a lot to be desired, ethically. You
get to continually make the opponent 'wrong' because they are going on
less information that you have. It's a great game, but hardly ethical
argument.

And I do think that the
police should be trained to assess a situation more accurately before
using any weapon.

Of course you do. I wish the police were better trained in all ways.
They are trained according to how much training money and resources are
available.

Let me see now, the perp has all the choices, the cops none but to
stand back and assess. I see. This assumes of course the perp is doing
nothing to endanger anyone, even him or herself, and that they are
willing to hang around while the cops "assess."

How would you deal with someone that was refusing to comply and in fact
chose to struggle, and or attack the officers? Or was possibly hurting
himself.


Especially in this case where the man was not breaking
the law, had not broken the law, and was not harming anyone.

And you know this how?

There is nothing of that in the article. If you wish to debate me, do
like they require in the judicial system. Disclose to me the same
information YOU have and we have an equal chance of stating our
argument. I might well, given the full information, be happy to conceed
the cops were out of line using the taser.

And why do
you feel so strongly in support of the taser?

Hundreds of thousands of uses without incident. And only about 50 or so
cases of deaths that in fact have not been proven to have been caused
by the taser, and some could like have happened had ANY method been
used.

And the data that shows that departments where the taser has been
adopted have a precipitious reduction in injury and death to perps, and
reduction in injury to officers and to bystanders.

Are you one of the people
making billions of dollars off of this so called non-lethal weapon?

No, and I don't know that it's a billion dollar industry. Where are you
getting your figures from?

"Many more police departments still stand behind the guns. And Taser's
sales figures back that up, going from $2.2 million in 1999 to $24.5
million in 2003. Taser officials expect to double overall sales of
Tasers this year."

That's not even a respectable small business these days. $24 mil? More
money in any new toy that comes out and hits. I think the Pet Rock went
past that point in the first 90 days.

And
if there is the slightest possible that this weapon can kill someone
that
does have medical conditions or is on psychotropic meds then it
absolutely
should not be used.

Then you must require police officers to cut off their hands and feet
to be employed as police officers. Just running after someone and
grabbing them has precipitated perp deaths.

The use of batons, and mace or capsicum spray have also been involved
in deaths. More than taser, by rate against numbers of uses.

What would you have police officers use on people that have conditions
you use above? And how are they to tell in a confrontation they perp
has those conditions? I worked with users and most of the time you
cannot tell if they are on drugs at all, and at worst you might be
facing someone in reaction to a health condition. That does not require
the police to simply let a perp walk away.

Guys in prison practice conning the public and especially cops, which
is often fatal to the victim. You want them now practicing how to look
like someone with a medical problem, until the cop moves in close
enough to have his gun taken away and used on him?

And it should not be used in schools across the
country either.

If it proved to actually be, per use, less lethal and less injurious
would you concede that it might very well be a far better tool than any
other?

So don't tell me to do my research when at least 30
people have died from this non-lethal weapon in the past 7 months!!!

I will so tell you to do your research. See if you can find that less
than 30 people died by the use of other weapons at the hands of the
police. You won't. trust me.

Thirty or more people have died, but you don't know if the taser did
it, or the running and agitation, before the taser deployment, or that
they were in fact so loaded that they would have died without any
intervention at all.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in610342.shtml
"
Williams says the Taser reduces deadly force because police no longer
draw their guns on suspects with bricks or knives. In Phoenix last
year, gun shootings by police went down by half, and fatal shootings
dropped by a third.
"

And
when you say it is a miniscule amount of shocking power, are you sure
you
did your research? It is 50K volts of electricity and he was shot
twice
!!! He would have been better off if she would have shot him in the
leg to
subdue. At least he would still be alive and getting the help he
needed
and his family would not be here suffering.

Shot him in the leg with what? Do you mean with a gun? Please. That's
ridiculous. Hit the femoral and he's very likely dead. Just the shock,
if the shot itself hits only bone and muscle, can kill someone that is
drugged or incapacitated by agitation and excitation.

And trust me, as a handgunner I assure you, putting shot in someone's
leg to incapacitate, is a surefire way to commit suicide in most police
encounters that become deadly. You WILL miss in the stress of the
moment. Careful braced slow fire is next to impossible. A person with a
hand weapon, club, brick, knife, 21 feet away can reach you within 3
seconds easily. Ask cops how they train for such circumstances. And
know that even someone a bullet through the heart can keep coming and
still kill or injure the officer.

Hence, pudgy, there is not such thing as a shot to incapacitate. Well,
except shooting to stop. And shooting to stop with a highly agitated
perp coming at you goes on until they DO actually stop, or they get
you.

You don't really know anything about this do you?

The trick the bleeding hearts are pulling here will get more people
killed in the end. You can tell they are propagandizing, and you feel
for it, by the claims that !!!!!!!! 50,000 VOLTS OH MY GAWD !!!!!!!!!!
are used, when voltage alone is not a killer. If it does not progress
at enough pressure you can literally play safely with that much voltage
and stage performers used to do it to entertain.

It's the joules, and amps, pudgy. And it's so low as to be far below
that of heart jumpstart electronic paddles. A Taser puts out 1.76
joules per pulse, to a defibrillator's 400 joules per pulse.

Where we are is in the middle of this as we were with pepper spray and
mace at one time. There are some fatalities connected to the use of
those as well, just as there is to the use of batons.

But what is clear is that misuse of any weapon, less than lethal, or
lethal, can be misused. Where misuse of the taser occures it should be
vigorously prosecuted, just as with misuse of other weapons available
to an LEO.

As long as the rate is far lower than other methods, and especially
when it used so often in situations where the only other weapon that
could be used to stop the perp was a gun, let it be a tazer. Between
the two, if you were going to shot which would you prefer?

I've been shot, and I've been shocked with livestock prods, which are
pretty hot tools themselves. I'll take the shock anytime.

This is a huge flap, with people NOT being objective. I can accept that
if it's someone you know that dies involved with a taser hit, of course
you are going to have a critical negative view, and it will be therefor
a subjective view.

Tell us all, pudgy, with a perp presenting lethal resistance and or
attacking, which would like the cop to do, shot to stop with a gun or
with a taser?

And explain why you chose the one you do.

And trust me, cops are NOT paid to risk their lives by trying to "wing"
a suspect. Think of the ramifications.

Best, Kane

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050329/D894ME480.html

Wis. Professor to Test Stun Guns on Pigs

Mar 29, 9:32 AM (ET)

By RYAN J. FOLEY

(AP) John Webster, a biomedical engineering professor at the University
of Wisconsin-Madison,...

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - A professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison
plans to study whether stun guns alone can kill pigs - or whether other
medical factors must be at play - as part of an effort to understand
why 70 people have died in North America since 2001 after being shocked
by Tasers.

Led by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, outraged animal
rights activists are calling for an end to the two-year study by John
Webster, a professor emeritus of biomedical engineering.

Police hail stun guns as a nonlethal way to restrain unruly suspects.
But critics blame the weapons for dozens of deaths, and police
departments are reviewing how they use the devices, which shoot two
small darts carrying about 50,000 volts of electricity to temporarily
paralyze people.

Webster wants to test his hypothesis that Taser-related deaths were the
result of...............

............full story at the link above...........

Let's see! It's not ok to use tasers on pigs but it is ok to use
tasers on SIX-YEAR OLDS!

Doan


On 29 Mar 2005 wrote:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050329/D894ME480.html

Wis. Professor to Test Stun Guns on Pigs

Mar 29, 9:32 AM (ET)

By RYAN J. FOLEY

(AP) John Webster, a biomedical engineering professor at the University
of Wisconsin-Madison,...

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - A professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison
plans to study whether stun guns alone can kill pigs - or whether other
medical factors must be at play - as part of an effort to understand
why 70 people have died in North America since 2001 after being shocked
by Tasers.

Led by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, outraged animal
rights activists are calling for an end to the two-year study by John
Webster, a professor emeritus of biomedical engineering.

Police hail stun guns as a nonlethal way to restrain unruly suspects.
But critics blame the weapons for dozens of deaths, and police
departments are reviewing how they use the devices, which shoot two
small darts carrying about 50,000 volts of electricity to temporarily
paralyze people.

Webster wants to test his hypothesis that Taser-related deaths were the
result of...............

...........full story at the link above...........