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#11
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pregnant 17 year old
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:34:22 -0700, "Chris" wrote:
"Nikki" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: For starters, thank you very much for your response! Now, I will respond, with all due respect, to your post below. "alath" wrote in message ups.com... If you ask your wife to choose between her daughter and her "marriage hanging by a thread" husband, her daughter will win, and rightly so. To understand you correctly, are you saying that a woman's commitment to her daughter ought to trump her commitment to her husband? Can't speak for Alath but I would pick my children over my husband, who is their actual bio father. I'm not saying her decision to support her daughter by giving her a place to live is right or wrong but that many parents would pick their children over anyone else. I suspect my husband would pick the kids over me if an issue arose where he felt he had to pick. I hope he would. Not me. My comittment is to my wife FIRST and foremost! Wow. I can't imagine choosing an adult that can take care of themselves, over a tiny, helpless baby. So does my wife make the "unilateral pronouncements" on family decisions, or am I living in a democracy where the votes of my wife and her child outnumber mine? It seems that you are the one wanting to make the unilateral pronouncement. The person you are not considering is the baby. That's correct. Depending on which court you choose, legally no baby exists; and she will be a legal adult before such baby exists. Court?! Good grief, this isn't about legality. A baby *does* exist, and will be joining your family whether you like it or not. For you to be so mired in "legality" is just unbelievable. Your wife is most likely not only thinking of her daughter but what might be best for her grandchild. Perhaps in her opinion; one that I do not share. So you say it would be better for her daughter to be homeless with a baby? Perhaps you need to focus on ways of supporting this young girl for the first year in your home. She can finish highschool, find a job or arrange secondary education, be old enough to sign a lease. Already graduated and will be a legal adult in less than a month. Oh, there's that "legality" thing again. You really need to let go of that. We don't have children so that we can boot them out the door at the magic age of 18. Did you marry your wife thinking you'd be rid of the daughter when she reached 18? Everyone should know upfront that this is a temporary arrangement and that she'll move at some predetermined time. Then you and your wife may be able to agree on reasonable ways of supporting her outside her home when she has half a chance of being successful. Being underage, under educated, under employed, single, and having a newborn is not a great set up for being terrible successful. Unless you want to run the risk of having her on your doorstep with a 3yo in an ever bigger mess then she is in now I would help her get started on the right foot. That's all well and good, but I am unwilling (and ever closer to being unable) to borrow money to support her and her family. And that IS a unilateral pronouncement. If she can make an adult choice, then she can be held accountable for the adult responsibilities/consequences that ride with such choice. Am I wrong? I can appreciate the unable aspect of not borrowing money. I wouldn't be able to do that either. But good grief, emotional support can go a long way. I wouldn't worry about statutory rape charges against the father Uhuh. This man molested her child and now ALL THREE of us are faced with a major upset in our life, not to mention my marriage is further in peril related specifically to this situation! Yeah well, if you were my husband and had this attitude, our marriage would be in peril, too. but I'd sure as heck make legal proceedings to get child support from him part of the deal. My guess is that's her option, and as a young adult she will be SOLELY responsible to make the decision. Argh! Here again, emotional support is necessary. Wow, you're some piece of work. Nan |
#12
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pregnant 17 year old
Chris wrote: My stepdaughter decided to get pregnant again. The first pregnancy did not come to term. She will be 18 next month. Her mother prefers to have her continue to live in our home even though I informed both of them the first time around that I refused to allow a second family to live here. Mother claims that she will not be able to make it financially if she moves out. She should have thought about that before getting pregnant. If she's old enough to make adult decisions, then she will need to live with the consequences of those decisions. Trust me, it will make her grow up faster if you kick her out and let her stand on her own two feet. The father claims that he will help out and that they will live together. He was dead against the first pregnancy, but now agrees to help with this one. (change of heart?) He is an idiot. Kick her out next month when she turns 18. Although she carries a part time job, her daughter is basically lazy and has no concern for personal/financial responsibility. The reason why I will not allow a second family to live here is because my marriage (first family) is already hanging on a thread. Another family will only add to our troubles, not to mention that we cannot afford to support another family. Any suggestions? Drop some balls and tell your wife that she needs to decide who she wants to be married to. Good luck. Regards... |
#13
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pregnant 17 year old
Chris wrote:
"Nikki" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: For starters, thank you very much for your response! Now, I will respond, with all due respect, to your post below. "alath" wrote in message ups.com... If you ask your wife to choose between her daughter and her "marriage hanging by a thread" husband, her daughter will win, and rightly so. To understand you correctly, are you saying that a woman's commitment to her daughter ought to trump her commitment to her husband? Can't speak for Alath but I would pick my children over my husband, who is their actual bio father. I'm not saying her decision to support her daughter by giving her a place to live is right or wrong but that many parents would pick their children over anyone else. I suspect my husband would pick the kids over me if an issue arose where he felt he had to pick. I hope he would. Not me. My comittment is to my wife FIRST and foremost! As it should be. And her commitment to you should be above the children. The order that should follow is: 1. God or some moral belief. For example, if your spouse told you to kill another human, you should not do so. 2. Your spouse. You put the needs of your spouse before the needs of your children. Your children will grow and start their own lives, but in the end, it's just the two of you. 3. Your children. Your children's birthdays and/or sporting events or any other needs surpass those of family and friends. 4. Family and Friends. So does my wife make the "unilateral pronouncements" on family decisions, or am I living in a democracy where the votes of my wife and her child outnumber mine? It seems that you are the one wanting to make the unilateral pronouncement. The person you are not considering is the baby. That's correct. Depending on which court you choose, legally no baby exists; and she will be a legal adult before such baby exists. Also, his step-daughter is not taking the baby into consideration. Why should he and his wife be burdened by the lack of responsibility of his step-child? Your wife is most likely not only thinking of her daughter but what might be best for her grandchild. Perhaps in her opinion; one that I do not share. And I agree. Perhaps you need to focus on ways of supporting this young girl for the first year in your home. She can finish highschool, find a job or arrange secondary education, be old enough to sign a lease. Already graduated and will be a legal adult in less than a month. For her 18th birthday, give her some money (no more than a 100 dollars) and kick her out and wish her luck. It'll be the best thing a parent could do for a child. Everyone should know upfront that this is a temporary arrangement and that she'll move at some predetermined time. Then you and your wife may be able to agree on reasonable ways of supporting her outside her home when she has half a chance of being successful. Being underage, under educated, under employed, single, and having a newborn is not a great set up for being terrible successful. Unless you want to run the risk of having her on your doorstep with a 3yo in an ever bigger mess then she is in now I would help her get started on the right foot. That's all well and good, but I am unwilling (and ever closer to being unable) to borrow money to support her and her family. And that IS a unilateral pronouncement. If she can make an adult choice, then she can be held accountable for the adult responsibilities/consequences that ride with such choice. Am I wrong? No, you are correct. Besides, I almost guarantee that she will be pregnant again if she doesn't feel the consequences of her actions. What bugs me is that this is the second time she is pregnant. Didn't anyone sit down with her and slap some sense into her the first time? I wouldn't worry about statutory rape charges against the father Uhuh. This man molested her child and now ALL THREE of us are faced with a major upset in our life, not to mention my marriage is further in peril related specifically to this situation! I agree, and if she was younger I would encourage you to pursue legal action. However, some states have a legal consent age at 16 and even if he does qualify to be thrown in jail or be financially penalized, it does nothing to help the situation. She was close to 18 when this happened and I would just let it go. but I'd sure as heck make legal proceedings to get child support from him part of the deal. My guess is that's her option, and as a young adult she will be SOLELY responsible to make the decision. [ note: you were probably unaware of her soon to be legal status change, thus some of your statements.] You're absolutely correct. If she decides not to live with him, she can sue for child support. Another reason to kick her out so he and her will live together and embrace the responsibility of their actions together. You're on the right path, and even if it cost you your marriage, you should continue. No man should put up with the **** you face. Regards... |
#14
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pregnant 17 year old
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#15
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pregnant 17 year old
Ericka Kammerer wrote: Your wife is an adult and can take care of herself, and your marriage is an agreement the two of you entered into independently and with informed consent. A child doesn't ask to be born and requires the love, attention, and support of parents. Parents *owe* that to their children. A spouse who doesn't get that is a poor parent and worse spouse for forcing his or her spouse to renege on an absolute commitment that is owed to the child, even when the going gets rough. One can argue whether the appropriate way to help the child is by bringing the child and her baby (and boyfriend?) into the home or whether it's more appropriate to help in some other way. It is *NOT* negotiable that the parent must do right by the child, whether it's convenient or not and whether the current spouse is willing to be inconvenienced or not. People who love and support one another do not force each other into reneging on their responsibilities because it's inconvenient. There is a higher moral obligation to one's child, who is dependent and didn't ask to be brought into the world, than there is to one's spouse. Normally I would agree to this, but at this point, his step-daughter is of legal age. Furthermore, this daughter has conducted herself in a manner that he disapproves of. I'm sure if she wasn't pregnant and was focused on getting an education, he would have no problems helping her in any way. You are not wrong to recognize your financial limitations or other objective limits. You are wrong when you seem to think that the only way to handle this situation is to tell the daughter to get out and don't let the door hit her in the butt on the way out. You are also wrong if you think that laying down an ultimatum for your wife is going to strengthen your marriage. You need to negotiate your way through this, and the starting point needs to be thinking about what is best for the daughter (and unborn child). That may or may not be supporting them entirely in your home, but that's what the discussion should be about, not your ultimatums that your wife better ditch the girl or you'll throw a hissy fit. I disagree with your point of view. Again, she is of legal age and obviously of an unresponsible mentality. The best thing he can do is to kick her into the street for her to fend for herself. She might despise him at first, but it will be to her benefit. Well, yes, she'll probably need to agree to get that in place, but she'll probably have to do that anyway to get support from the government. It would certainly be a reasonable topic of discussion to insist that the father be held accountable in order for you and your wife to also help out. You can negotiate through these things. But why negotiate. Did she negotiate with them before getting pregnant or having sex? The worst thing you can do for someone is to encourage a welfare state of mentality. I'm sure it's *easier* for you to just wash your hands of the whole affair and tell your wife to lump it, but that's not likely to be the *right* solution, in the short run *or* the long run, and certainly if you want to strengthen your marriage. I don't think it's easy for him to this, or he wouldn't be asking for people's opinions. Ericka Regards... |
#16
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pregnant 17 year old
agent99 wrote: wrote: Chris wrote: "Nikki" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: Not me. My comittment is to my wife FIRST and foremost! As it should be. That depends. Ideally, the parents of the child put everyone in the family's wellbeing at a premium, and recognise that for parents to care well for kids, they themselves must be well taken care of. I agree with the above. And her commitment to you should be above the children. The order that should follow is: 1. God or some moral belief. For example, if your spouse told you to kill another human, you should not do so. 2. Your spouse. You put the needs of your spouse before the needs of your children. Your children will grow and start their own lives, but in the end, it's just the two of you. So, lemme get this straight: if you're short on food, the spouse gets food, but the kids don't? What if there's a fire, or a capsized boat, and only one person can be saved? Kid or parent? I hope my spouse chooses kid - I certainly would. It all depends on the age of the children and the parents. You will have to question the ability of the parents on producing any further children and/or the ability for the entire family to survive with the loss of the spouse. Oh, and the scenario where it's just the two of you, and your children have fled the nest and have their own lives? That's the middle, not the end. In the end, most likely one of you has outlived the other, and has medical and physical needs which your children are more likely to take care of than the state is, so you'd better be sure you fostered a good relationship with them and helped them to be successful as best you could when you had the chance, because they are going to either be caring for you, or choosing the facility that does it in their stead. Hopefully you raised children of high moral value and have taken the necessary steps during your life to compensate for this. 3. Your children. Your children's birthdays and/or sporting events or any other needs surpass those of family and friends. Ohhhh. Birthday parties and sporting events are the "needs" of which we speak. I see. Those were just simplified examples... Not, you know, the reproductive autonomy of a sexually mature young woman who lives with her mother and stepfather, and the wellbeing of her unborn child. My mistake. She is no longer a child. She is an adult of legal age and has made life decisions that she needs to take responsibility for. 4. Family and Friends. So does my wife make the "unilateral pronouncements" on family decisions, or am I living in a democracy where the votes of my wife and her child outnumber mine? It seems that you are the one wanting to make the unilateral pronouncement. The person you are not considering is the baby. That's correct. Depending on which court you choose, legally no baby exists; and she will be a legal adult before such baby exists. Also, his step-daughter is not taking the baby into consideration. Why should he and his wife be burdened by the lack of responsibility of his step-child? For someone who believes in a moral code, you got no notion of compassion, have you? Apparently, you have no idea on what compassion means. Compassion is empowering people to make correct decisions in their lives and holding them responsible for these decisions without depending on other people for support. You talk like a liberal who rather raise taxes for welfare programs instead of forcing these people to educate and find jobs and become independant. You rather see them dependant on the system and continue their way of life than to stand on their own two feet. You are the one that lacks compassion. It's like you're channelling Dr. Laura. I was never a fan of hers. Did she die? 99 Cool name by the way, it was one of my favorite shows. Regards... |
#17
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pregnant 17 year old
"Nan" wrote in message ... On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:34:22 -0700, "Chris" wrote: "Nikki" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: For starters, thank you very much for your response! Now, I will respond, with all due respect, to your post below. "alath" wrote in message ups.com... If you ask your wife to choose between her daughter and her "marriage hanging by a thread" husband, her daughter will win, and rightly so. To understand you correctly, are you saying that a woman's commitment to her daughter ought to trump her commitment to her husband? Can't speak for Alath but I would pick my children over my husband, who is their actual bio father. I'm not saying her decision to support her daughter by giving her a place to live is right or wrong but that many parents would pick their children over anyone else. I suspect my husband would pick the kids over me if an issue arose where he felt he had to pick. I hope he would. Not me. My comittment is to my wife FIRST and foremost! Wow. I can't imagine choosing an adult that can take care of themselves, over a tiny, helpless baby. You must be posting from Zimbabwe. Afterall, there is an abundance of "tiny, helpless" babies there for you to be taking care of. So does my wife make the "unilateral pronouncements" on family decisions, or am I living in a democracy where the votes of my wife and her child outnumber mine? It seems that you are the one wanting to make the unilateral pronouncement. The person you are not considering is the baby. That's correct. Depending on which court you choose, legally no baby exists; and she will be a legal adult before such baby exists. Court?! Good grief, this isn't about legality. A baby *does* exist, and will be joining your family whether you like it or not. My family consists of me and my wife. Her daughter has now left the family to yoke with another man. The only connection that I have with her is the fact that she is residing in my home off of my dime. For you to be so mired in "legality" is just unbelievable. When push comes to shove, it is "legality" that will prevail. Your wife is most likely not only thinking of her daughter but what might be best for her grandchild. Perhaps in her opinion; one that I do not share. So you say it would be better for her daughter to be homeless with a baby? Sorry, too many women's shelters or other escapes for ANY woman to be homeless. Not to mention, I have never seen a single homeless woman in my neck of the woods; and it's a big city. Whether or not her daughter chooses to be homeless with a baby has what to do with me? Perhaps you need to focus on ways of supporting this young girl for the first year in your home. She can finish highschool, find a job or arrange secondary education, be old enough to sign a lease. Already graduated and will be a legal adult in less than a month. Oh, there's that "legality" thing again. You really need to let go of that. It wasn't me who initiated the "legality" thing into this discussion. But let me guess, you believe that legality has no effect in this situation? We don't have children so that we can boot them out the door at the magic age of 18. Did you marry your wife thinking you'd be rid of the daughter when she reached 18? YES. That's what my wife told me that she and her daughter desired BEFORE we got married. In fact, her daughter expressed her wishes years ago and has already left for days at a time. Everyone should know upfront that this is a temporary arrangement and that she'll move at some predetermined time. Then you and your wife may be able to agree on reasonable ways of supporting her outside her home when she has half a chance of being successful. Being underage, under educated, under employed, single, and having a newborn is not a great set up for being terrible successful. Unless you want to run the risk of having her on your doorstep with a 3yo in an ever bigger mess then she is in now I would help her get started on the right foot. That's all well and good, but I am unwilling (and ever closer to being unable) to borrow money to support her and her family. And that IS a unilateral pronouncement. If she can make an adult choice, then she can be held accountable for the adult responsibilities/consequences that ride with such choice. Am I wrong? I can appreciate the unable aspect of not borrowing money. I wouldn't be able to do that either. But good grief, emotional support can go a long way. Perhaps, but there is no emotional connection between her child and me. Just yesterday, she again told me to take a hike. I wouldn't worry about statutory rape charges against the father Uhuh. This man molested her child and now ALL THREE of us are faced with a major upset in our life, not to mention my marriage is further in peril related specifically to this situation! Yeah well, if you were my husband and had this attitude, our marriage would be in peril, too. I see. So you too have no problem with some man molesting your child and getting her knocked up not once but TWICE! but I'd sure as heck make legal proceedings to get child support from him part of the deal. My guess is that's her option, and as a young adult she will be SOLELY responsible to make the decision. Argh! Here again, emotional support is necessary. Maybe so, but not my obligation. Wow, you're some piece of work. Thank you. Nan |
#18
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pregnant 17 year old
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: "Nikki" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: "alath" wrote in message groups.com... If you ask your wife to choose between her daughter and her "marriage hanging by a thread" husband, her daughter will win, and rightly so. To understand you correctly, are you saying that a woman's commitment to her daughter ought to trump her commitment to her husband? Can't speak for Alath but I would pick my children over my husband, who is their actual bio father. I'm not saying her decision to support her daughter by giving her a place to live is right or wrong but that many parents would pick their children over anyone else. I suspect my husband would pick the kids over me if an issue arose where he felt he had to pick. I hope he would. Not me. My comittment is to my wife FIRST and foremost! Your wife is an adult and can take care of herself, and your marriage is an agreement the two of you entered into independently and with informed consent. A child doesn't ask to be born and requires the love, attention, and support of parents. Parents *owe* that to their children. What did the child do to earn it? A spouse who doesn't get that is a poor parent and worse spouse for forcing his or her spouse to renege on an absolute commitment that is owed to the child, even when the going gets rough. One can argue whether the appropriate way to help the child is by bringing the child and her baby (and boyfriend?) into the home or whether it's more appropriate to help in some other way. It is *NOT* negotiable that the parent must do right by the child, whether it's convenient or not and whether the current spouse is willing to be inconvenienced or not. People who love and support one another do not force each other into reneging on their responsibilities because it's inconvenient. There is a higher moral obligation to one's child, who is dependent and didn't ask to be brought into the world, than there is to one's spouse. What is your source for such morality? You seem to have lost sight of the fact that I am referring to the "woman" (according to law) that her daughter will soon be, not a dependent child. That's all well and good, but I am unwilling (and ever closer to being unable) to borrow money to support her and her family. And that IS a unilateral pronouncement. If she can make an adult choice, then she can be held accountable for the adult responsibilities/consequences that ride with such choice. Am I wrong? You are not wrong to recognize your financial limitations or other objective limits. You are wrong when you seem to think that the only way to handle this situation is to tell the daughter to get out and don't let the door hit her in the butt on the way out. From the getgo, I never said she had to leave when she became an adult. I simply refuse to live with another family in my home. She is making the SOLE choice to impose her family upon mine. You are also wrong if you think that laying down an ultimatum for your wife is going to strengthen your marriage. You need to negotiate your way through this, and the starting point needs to be thinking about what is best for the daughter (and unborn child). No it doesn't. The starting AND ending point needs to be what is best for MY family (me and my wife). That may or may not be supporting them entirely in your home, but that's what the discussion should be about, not your ultimatums that your wife better ditch the girl or you'll throw a hissy fit. Never said she should ditch the girl. (see above) I wouldn't worry about statutory rape charges against the father Uhuh. This man molested her child and now ALL THREE of us are faced with a major upset in our life, not to mention my marriage is further in peril related specifically to this situation! So you think having the father in jail is going to improve the odds that your step-daughter will be successful in becoming a self-sufficient adult and parent? Seems to me it would have exactly the opposite effect. Possibly, but that does not negate the effect of having a molester on the prowl. Most likely, the odds would be reduced from slim to none. No great loss. but I'd sure as heck make legal proceedings to get child support from him part of the deal. My guess is that's her option, and as a young adult she will be SOLELY responsible to make the decision. Well, yes, she'll probably need to agree to get that in place, but she'll probably have to do that anyway to get support from the government. It would certainly be a reasonable topic of discussion to insist that the father be held accountable in order for you and your wife to also help out. You can negotiate through these things. I'm sure it's *easier* for you to just wash your hands of the whole affair and tell your wife to lump it, but that's not likely to be the *right* solution, in the short run *or* the long run, and certainly if you want to strengthen your marriage. Yielding to spousal blackmail does not strengthen a marriage. Best wishes, Ericka |
#19
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pregnant 17 year old
"agent99" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Chris wrote: "Nikki" wrote in message ... Chris wrote: For starters, thank you very much for your response! Now, I will respond, with all due respect, to your post below. "alath" wrote in message ups.com... If you ask your wife to choose between her daughter and her "marriage hanging by a thread" husband, her daughter will win, and rightly so. To understand you correctly, are you saying that a woman's commitment to her daughter ought to trump her commitment to her husband? Can't speak for Alath but I would pick my children over my husband, who is their actual bio father. I'm not saying her decision to support her daughter by giving her a place to live is right or wrong but that many parents would pick their children over anyone else. I suspect my husband would pick the kids over me if an issue arose where he felt he had to pick. I hope he would. Not me. My comittment is to my wife FIRST and foremost! As it should be. That depends. Ideally, the parents of the child put everyone in the family's wellbeing at a premium, and recognise that for parents to care well for kids, they themselves must be well taken care of. That's why my wife comes first. And her commitment to you should be above the children. The order that should follow is: 1. God or some moral belief. For example, if your spouse told you to kill another human, you should not do so. 2. Your spouse. You put the needs of your spouse before the needs of your children. Your children will grow and start their own lives, but in the end, it's just the two of you. So, lemme get this straight: if you're short on food, the spouse gets food, but the kids don't? What if there's a fire, or a capsized boat, and only one person can be saved? Kid or parent? SPOUSE. Last I checked, my marriage covenant was with my wife......... not her child. I hope my spouse chooses kid - I certainly would. And if you think this argument is spurious, consider that most families in the world do have to consider the food issue, and most parents throughout history have gone without in order that their children might have the best chance at survival. You're the one with the psych 101 understanding of natural selection, agsf, surely you recognise that adult animals strive to ensure the survival of their young, so that they too might procreate? What do animals have to do with this discussion? Oh, and the scenario where it's just the two of you, and your children have fled the nest and have their own lives? That's the middle, not the end. In the end, most likely one of you has outlived the other, and has medical and physical needs which your children are more likely to take care of than the state is, so you'd better be sure you fostered a good relationship with them and helped them to be successful as best you could when you had the chance, because they are going to either be caring for you, or choosing the facility that does it in their stead. 3. Your children. Your children's birthdays and/or sporting events or any other needs surpass those of family and friends. Ohhhh. Birthday parties and sporting events are the "needs" of which we speak. I see. Not, you know, the reproductive autonomy of a sexually mature young woman who lives with her mother and stepfather, and the wellbeing of her unborn child. My mistake. Since when does a grandmother have any commitment to the wellbeing of her unborn grandchild? 4. Family and Friends. So does my wife make the "unilateral pronouncements" on family decisions, or am I living in a democracy where the votes of my wife and her child outnumber mine? It seems that you are the one wanting to make the unilateral pronouncement. The person you are not considering is the baby. That's correct. Depending on which court you choose, legally no baby exists; and she will be a legal adult before such baby exists. Also, his step-daughter is not taking the baby into consideration. Why should he and his wife be burdened by the lack of responsibility of his step-child? For someone who believes in a moral code, you got no notion of compassion, have you? "Compassion" and "morality" are not codependent terms. It's like you're channelling Dr. Laura. 99 |
#20
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pregnant 17 year old
Chris wrote:
Yielding to spousal blackmail does not strengthen a marriage. Agreed. You are engaging in spousal blackmail. Best wishes, Ericka |
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