alt.parenting.spanking FAQ

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/apsFAQ.html

Frequently Asked Questions

1) What is "alt.parenting.spanking?"

Alt.parenting.spanking is a newsgroup on Usenet. Usenet is a text based system
of distributing postings in a group accessible format, which predates the more
recent World Wide Web by many years.

Some Usenet newsgroups are moderated, which means that one or more individuals
determine what and who may post notes to the newsgroup. Others are unmoderated.
Alt.parenting.spanking is an unmoderated newsgroup. As such anyone attempting
to be a NetCensor should be ignored as such.


2) When did a.p.s. first begin?

Alt.parenting.spanking began on 8 August 1995.


3) What is the purpose of a.p.s.?

Alt.parenting.spanking is a discussion group for the topic of corporal
punishment by parents in a legitimate fashion as defined by relevant law.
Any notes relating directly or indirectly to the issue of use of corporal
punishment by parents are on topic on a.p.s.


4) What is "spanking?"

The reasonable non-inflammatory definition of spanking is the legitimate and
legal use of corporal (physical) punishment in the furtherance of disciplined
behavior of a child by the parent or legal guardian of said child. The form
and manner of such corporal punishment is widely left to the discretion of
said parent or guardian and is fully within their legal rights and
prerogatives up to the point such actions violate the legal statutes.

There are those participants in the newsgroup who seek to use inflammatory and
emotionalistic, hyperbolic, hysterical and misrepresentative terms and
agenda-serving definitions which only cloud the issue and shut down any
reasonable and meaningful discussion on the topic. Such should just be pointed
out as such and then ignored as the intentional attempts at disruption that
they are.


5) May spanking fetishists post on a.p.s.?

Anyone can post to an unmoderated newsgroup, as there is little that can be
done to stop them, but since this is a parenting newsgroup, not a fetish
newsgroup, such posts are usually ignored or looked upon with disfavor.


6)Is "flaming" permitted on a.p.s.?

Since a.p.s. is unmoderated, posters are free to heap insults and slanders on
whomever they wish. Remember you can be insulting and offensive even if you use
only polite and diplomatic terminology and language. Profanity is generally
frowned upon as unnecessarily vulgar.

In addition to the obvious division between posters who agree with spanking and
posters who are against spanking, there is also a division between posters who
desire a civil discourse and posters who desire a "flame war." In the past
there have been "flamers" at times on both sides of the spanking issue. There
are also those who seem to think they are not flaming when they are, who do
not think they are being offensive when they are and who do not think they are
being uncivil when they are. Their swaggering selfrighteousness and holier-
than-thou arrogance will become readily apparent in short order.


7) What is a "killfile?"

A killfile is a simple feature of the software which you use to read Usenet
newsgroups. When you place someone's address in your killfile, all of their
notes will cease to appear on your screen. This is generally considered to be
the Usenet equivalent of sticking one's fingers in one's ears and humming.
The sole purpose of it is to perpetuate one's own ignorance. Whether or not
you read someone else's posts they can still read yours and respond.


8) Are discussions about Child Protective Services on topic on a.p.s.?

Absolutely! Since Children's Protective Services, by whatever local name they
go by, deal with issues of child abuse and since several extreme position
posters continue to claim that all spanking is child abuse, even that which
is clearly legal in all fifty states of the union, the discussion of CPS is
entirely on topic, because people should be entirely aware of what exactly
they are doing and causing if they report someone to one of these agencies.

Another newsgroup specifically about CPS is alt.support.child-protective-
services, and posts can be made there as well, but since the world is not as
ultracompartmentalized as some would wish it to be, such posts are also on
topic in a.p.s.

Those who object most strenuously to posts in the newsgroup about CPS are those
who tend to advocate or play apologist for those agencies and do not wish the
general public to know the truth about these agencies.


9) Are binary (image) files appropriate for a.p.s.?

Binary files are heavily frowned on throughout Usenet, except in newsgroups
expressly designed for the posting of binary files. Please do not post binary
files to alt.parenting.spanking or other newsgroups without "binaries" in their
names. Compared to the text messages which predominate in Usenet newsgroups,
binary files typically take up much larger amounts of memory space and
require more downloading time. Some readers of alt.parenting.spanking pay for
the online time during which they download new messages to their computers.
They will not be amused to discover that more than half of their download
consisted of a binary file.


10) Are fictional stories appropriate for a.p.s.?

It is very unlikely that a fictional story of any sort will be appropriate for
a.p.s. or widely appreciated by readers of a.p.s. Alt.parenting.spanking is
devoted to discussion of how spanking impacts the lives of the current
generation of non-fictional children. Unless your fictional story somehow
relates in a clear and direct manner to real-life spankings of real-life
children, it would be best posted elsewhere.

11) What is a "troll?"

In Usenet parlance, a "troll" is someone who posts notes on a newsgroup
intending to provoke chaos from others while they skip out and leave the
firestorm they created for the regular participants of the newsgroup to deal
with. No one likes a troll, generally speaking.


12) How can I begin posting to a.p.s.?

The best way to read and post to a.p.s. is to use a Usenet "newsreader" devoted
to the purpose. The "rn" newsreader is primitive but servicable. The "tin"
newsreader is recommended. Ask your ISP about accessing Usenet to find out what
is available for someone with your internet account. Also Netscape and Outlook
have newsreader capabilities and are usually available on most PCs.

Alt.parenting.spanking may also be accessed from the world wide web through
any number of newsgroup access sites such as Remarq, Google and others. Some
charge for their services, and others do not.

13. Is "terrorism" an appropriate topic for a.p.s?

Of course, not. Those who continued to post on the topic of terrorism
are spamming the group. They are showing that they have no respect for
the participants of a.p.s!

Doan

Doan wrote:

And wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and still won't write and answer to
The Question, nor write the simple requirements for debate on the
Embry study, nor provide answers to his claims instead instisting
someone else prove him wrong, instead of proving himself right.

Now why IS that I wonder, other than the possible excuse of that he is
still suffering from the treachery of his parents from childhood?

Frequently Asked Questions

1) What is "alt.parenting.spanking?"

Alt.parenting.spanking is a newsgroup on Usenet. Usenet is a text based system
of distributing postings in a group accessible format, which predates the more
recent World Wide Web by many years.

So far so good.

Some Usenet newsgroups are moderated, which means that one or more individuals
determine what and who may post notes to the newsgroup. Others are unmoderated.
Alt.parenting.spanking is an unmoderated newsgroup.

The following was added by the Doananatory, publically exposing
himself yet again.
Can't even write a FAQ of his own, he has to plagerize another's work
with comments uncited as being by him. Tsk.

As such anyone attempting
to be a NetCensor should be ignored as such.

The just miligned redundant and trite "such" overused by a small boy
who can't find his Funkin' White. R R R R R

2) When did a.p.s. first begin?

Alt.parenting.spanking began on 8 August 1995.


3) What is the purpose of a.p.s.?

Alt.parenting.spanking is a discussion group for the topic of corporal
punishment by parents

The following is an attempt, of course, by our every so neutral "let
them make up their own minds" public Doananism Champ, to limit the
discussion and attempt to redefine spanking to HIS liking rather to
the truth...that "spanking" has more than one standard of evaluation
among the civilised and thinking population. Hence you can see where
HIS reasoning and bogus attempts to mislead and deceive come from.

in a legitimate fashion as defined by relevant law.

And below we return the the poorly plagerized, but in this sentence,
correct statement. ALL considerations of spanking, pro or con, are
welcomed here.

Any notes relating directly or indirectly to the issue of use of corporal
punishment by parents are on topic on a.p.s.


4) What is "spanking?"

Watch him go, he's in high gear now. Notice the use of an inflammatory
term, "inflammatory" when discribing spanking as the use of physical
pain...like spanking isn't painful...sure, Doanantor, sure.

The reasonable non-inflammatory definition of spanking is the legitimate and
legal use of corporal (physical) punishment

I do not believe this ng is designed to discuss only the legal
aspects, as I said before....it's open to ALL discussion, even the
sadly offtopic.

in the furtherance of disciplined
behavior of a child by the parent or legal guardian of said child.

I thought you said, "I let them make up their own mind?'

That above is starting to depart pretty extremely from your claimed
neutrality, as in you want them to get their own information, but here
are trying to fob off a definition of this ng that limits it to the
law instead of the entire field of inquiry.

I guess your moral and ethical bias is becoming more clear today, is
it not?

The form
and manner of such corporal punishment is widely left to the discretion of
said parent or guardian and is fully within their legal rights and
prerogatives up to the point such actions violate the legal statutes.

Actually, Doan, that is not quite what this ng is about. But your
attempt to invade and corrupt the FAQ is certainly what you spanking
compulsives are about. Dishonesty to yourselves, each other, and the
new visitor is duly noted. chuckle

(lest we forget one of our greatest contributors to misinformation and
foolishness....let them eat peppers....yeah that's legal, except when
it isn't.)

I see you are busy pushing "legal" when it isn't all that clear. And
we like to talk about when it isn't clear. How does that wash with
your "parents doing this and that without interference" etc.?

There are those participants in the newsgroup who seek to use inflammatory

Your words appear to me an attempt to defame so as to minimize
arguments against spanking. Is that really fair, given that you are
being inflammatory in your OWN choice of words?

Or is it okay when you and the other compulsives do so because YOU are
RIGHT?

and
emotionalistic, hyperbolic, hysterical and misrepresentative terms and
agenda-serving definitions which only cloud the issue and shut down any
reasonable and meaningful discussion on the topic.

The only thing that get's shut down does so in exactly the way I have
shut YOU down recently....with the truth. You can't handle the heat.
Kitchen door is thataway.

Such should just be pointed
out as such

Ah, the truth of "such"ness is used to hammer the opposition once
again. We are, really we are, just devestated by your command of the
logic and honorable, as well as intelligent argument.

and then ignored as the intentional attempts at disruption that
they are.

If you are going to talk that way about the pro spankers don't you
think folks might get us confused?

The only "attempts at disruption" and you just ran into one a few
weeks ago, are honest confrontations on vital questions of importance
to the safety and well being of children, and in fact, to that of
parents as well that could run afoul of the law if they do NOT take
considerably more pains to seek out information and advice that goes a
bit beyond the Donanation of, "reasonable standards."


5) May spanking fetishists post on a.p.s.?

Anyone can post to an unmoderated newsgroup, as there is little that can be
done to stop them, but since this is a parenting newsgroup, not a fetish
newsgroup, such posts are usually ignored or looked upon with disfavor.

Gee, now why would you cut and snip and otherwise mutilate a very
reasoned and thoughtful invitation, polite too, to take this stuff
elsewhere and substitute this rather vapid bit of prose in it's place?


6)Is "flaming" permitted on a.p.s.?

Since a.p.s. is unmoderated, posters are free to heap insults and slanders on
whomever they wish. Remember you can be insulting and offensive even if you use
only polite and diplomatic terminology and language. Profanity is generally
frowned upon as unnecessarily vulgar.

Interesting...at least to someone that has studied learning theory.
Chris posts a balanced and complete section that focuses on what kind
of behavior is wanted, and encourages folks toward that, when you,
against the commonest and long known and proven learning theory
concepts, focus entirely on the negative, what is not wanted.

You do know that such an approach tends to the anchor the negative in
one's mind thus causing them to surface that very thing in their
behaviors, do you not? No, I guess you do not know that.

But then that is common among punishers, those that are attracted to
compulsively spanking when a child presents and unwanted behavior.

In addition to the obvious division between posters who agree with spanking and
posters who are against spanking, there is also a division between posters who
desire a civil discourse and posters who desire a "flame war." In the past
there have been "flamers" at times on both sides of the spanking issue.

Well, so far Chris had a clear description. Let's see what a
Doananator can do to mess it up, eh?

There
are also those who seem to think they are not flaming when they are,

Doan, you are OUTed at last, and by yourself. Congrats.

who do
not think they are being offensive when they are and who do not think they are
being uncivil when they are.

That's why, when you are doing such a bangup job of it, and likely
neurotically blind to your insults, I lay into you to get your
attention. Have you not noticed that I get more insulting at times?
Just assume you did it again, without knowing it.

That IS a common, in fact majority wise, characteristic of people who
have been spanked in childhood. They are poor readers of others
feelings and thoughts, and very good at deluding themselves they are
making polite intelligent and oh so logical contributions, when in
fact they are often dishonest, peddlers of ignorance as fact, with a
callous regard to the feeling, opinions, and thoughts of
others....more especially children.

Some of those like you...scuse me, some of those like that have left
this ng, and good riddance. And when you grow up you'll find your own
little self being treated with considerably more gentleness. Until
then, yah earn what's yah get, clearly.

Their swaggering selfrighteousness and holier-
than-thou arrogance will become readily apparent in short order.

Tsk, tsk, little braggart and bully, you shouldn't talk about NNN, the
long missing Onanator-lil'O, and other such as such who are such
suchers of suchness.


7) What is a "killfile?"

A killfile is a simple feature of the software which you use to read Usenet
newsgroups. When you place someone's address in your killfile, all of their
notes will cease to appear on your screen. This is generally considered to be
the Usenet equivalent of sticking one's fingers in one's ears and humming.

For you perhaps. For other's it amounts more to smackin' an annoying
humming buzzing mosquito and putting it in a box for safekeeping.

The sole purpose of it is to perpetuate one's own ignorance.

Or to fight off overwhelming boredom with twits such as you that put
yourself in positions of importance you haven't earned or deserve. You
Drone Doan.

Whether or not
you read someone else's posts they can still read yours and respond.

Interesting that, once again, Chris posted, under this subject title,
a very carefully and intelligently thought out bit of advice. He even
points to their use to avoid having to read posts of flame wars, a
perfectly legitimate use. When I'm conversing with you, for instance,
I am really very okay with folks dumping me into the their
twit-filter. They shouldn't have to be annoyed at what I say to annoy
you, and they certainly should not be subjected to the flaming
embarrassment you perpetrate on yourself with you silly childish "I
DARE YOU I DOUBLE DARE YOU" antics and evasions.

Really. Some of us are embarrassed for you, Droan.


8) Are discussions about Child Protective Services on topic on a.p.s.?

Absolutely! Since Children's Protective Services, by whatever local name they
go by, deal with issues of child abuse and since several extreme position
posters continue to claim that all spanking is child abuse, even that which
is clearly legal in all fifty states of the union, the discussion of CPS is
entirely on topic, because people should be entirely aware of what exactly
they are doing and causing if they report someone to one of these agencies.

Let me see now. It's not appropriate to claim that spanking is a bad
thing because it's legal in all states, (I believe you opened early
with this claim) but it's really perfectly okay to post all kinds of
things from ascsp because someone it's a legal thing only...hmmm. Am I
missing something here.

Could you clarify a bit for us, having it both ways wise I mean?

No, of course you won't. YOu never do. YOu just are just one of those
Plantlike Declarative Whine.....opps, WINNERS!

Funny, too. Chris didn't go as far as you in your attempt to control
peoples thinking. He used the word "appropriate" alot, making
suggestions about what is more likely the place to explore CPS issues,
and saying that of course, when you discuss spanking AND CPS then this
is also a good place to post to.

I think you are trying to make out that Chris is saying something he
isn't. Now why WOULD you do that? Why would you keep hammering away at
this FAQ if you didn't have some residual and reactionary response to
some asswhuppins' Chris gave you in the past?

Another newsgroup specifically about CPS is alt.support.child-protective-
services, and posts can be made there as well, but since the world is not as
ultracompartmentalized as some would wish it to be, such posts are also on
topic in a.p.s.

That's just what I say...and I say it about trying to compartmentalize
into false and fabricated compartments, like "parents can decide on
their own" when you can't even answer a simple question about the most
vital of information they DO need, other than to use the vague and
misleading (since it's admitted even by legal experts as unclear and
no standard at all) "reasonable standards."

Those who object most strenuously to posts in the newsgroup about CPS are those
who tend to advocate or play apologist for those agencies and do not wish the
general public to know the truth about these agencies.

And of course here you are again treating us to your wonderful and
pious neutrality. How is it that you don't just tell the to get more
information like you do about spanking? AFraid of what they will find
if they really shovel enough manure aside and get down to the truth?

I hereby invite all who read Doan's smarmy attempt to mislead, once
again, to really dig down, and leave the garbage in ascps behind and
go to government and scientific and social work studies of this issues
of child abuse in this country.

It has little to do with the aside he just offered to lead you
down....sometimes referred to as The Garden Path.

9) Are binary (image) files appropriate for a.p.s.?

Binary files are heavily frowned on throughout Usenet, except in newsgroups
expressly designed for the posting of binary files. Please do not post binary
files to alt.parenting.spanking or other newsgroups without "binaries" in their
names. Compared to the text messages which predominate in Usenet newsgroups,
binary files typically take up much larger amounts of memory space and
require more downloading time. Some readers of alt.parenting.spanking pay for
the online time during which they download new messages to their computers.
They will not be amused to discover that more than half of their download
consisted of a binary file.

I take it back. You ARE honest. You left one issue unchanged.
Congrats. Of course how important it was to the issues discussed here
that you DO lie about remains the question.

Speaking of The Question. How about it?

10) Are fictional stories appropriate for a.p.s.?

It is very unlikely that a fictional story of any sort will be appropriate for
a.p.s. or widely appreciated by readers of a.p.s. Alt.parenting.spanking is
devoted to discussion of how spanking impacts the lives of the current
generation of non-fictional children. Unless your fictional story somehow
relates in a clear and direct manner to real-life spankings of real-life
children, it would be best posted elsewhere.

11) What is a "troll?"

In Usenet parlance, a "troll" is someone who posts notes on a newsgroup
intending to provoke chaos from others while they skip out and leave the
firestorm they created for the regular participants of the newsgroup to deal
with. No one likes a troll, generally speaking.

You seem to do that every few weeks or so, with your post of a phony
FAQ.

But then I do not want anyone claiming you are a troll, so here I am.

SURPRISE!!!!

Ain't we got fun? R R R R R


12) How can I begin posting to a.p.s.?

The best way to read and post to a.p.s. is to use a Usenet "newsreader" devoted
to the purpose. The "rn" newsreader is primitive but servicable. The "tin"
newsreader is recommended. Ask your ISP about accessing Usenet to find out what
is available for someone with your internet account. Also Netscape and Outlook
have newsreader capabilities and are usually available on most PCs.

Yah know, I find this odd little recommendation, not posted by Chris,
fascinating. "tin" and "rn" are far more closed or easily firewalled
while Outlook, especially the Express model, and somewhat Netscape
newsreaders are terribly "porous" to hacking, or should I say
cracking.

Given your technical expertise wouldn't it be more thoughtful and
helpful to recommend more secure and more solidly firewall capable
newsreaders such as Agent, or even the latest addition of Outlook,
specifically, that comes with XP?

Oh, well, probably no big thing. Crackers are pretty much into
everyone's workstation that post to and recieve directly from Usenet.

I guess you forgot to recommend the most secure way of reading mail of
all....a web based, such as google, newsreader.

Glad I can be of assistance.

Alt.parenting.spanking may also be accessed from the world wide web through
any number of newsgroup access sites such as Remarq, Google and others. Some
charge for their services, and others do not.

Hey, guess what. You just DID get one over on Chris. He is remiss in
not updating his FAQ file on this. I'll try to give him a heads up. He
still has google as opting out on this ng. ...though he does point to
the update page.

You want to email him or shall I?

13. Is "terrorism" an appropriate topic for a.p.s?

Of course, not. Those who continued to post on the topic of terrorism
are spamming the group. They are showing that they have no respect for
the participants of a.p.s!

Well, until you start to look into the parenting practice of the
nations that seem to produce and extraordinarily high proportion of
terrorists, which also includes one of the nations with nearly the
highest incident of admitted spanking in the world, the United States
of America.

We have our very on OK bomber, folks that take Civvy models of the AK
47 (real full auto machine guns, AK 47's, are hard to get) in semi
auto...very deadly and high cyclic firing rate, and those folks that
pitch a burning can of gas into a crowded dance hall and kill dozens
and even hundreds, and folks that drive their cars into crowds of
people, even little children, and people that slip into homes at
night, or grab children in the street in broad daylight...well, I'd
say something is setting this off...

And WE brag, well some like Doanantor do, in this ng that 90% or more
of US families use spanking, yet they consider it provacative and
inflammatory of us to bring these two facts into juxtaposition,
pretending it's just Cargo Cult Science.

Me, I kinda sorta tend to go with the long well proven principle that
violence begats violence, and children learn...as well know and use
for everything else....by what they see and hear, and witness.

'course how COULD there possibly be a connection between the violence
in the country and the 90% spanking...after all, the only folks that
do violence are those that were not spanked as children, right?

Doan

Well, at least you signed it. That's to your credit. Somewhere down
under that cringing, terrified child left from your childhood, is an
honorable, decent, honest man. I'm sure of it or I wouldn't bother
with you.

Spanking hurts, just like when I spank you here. Only for a child
there's no escape, until they are grown. None. They have to bear it,
and they have to find a way to that usually amounts to becoming what
you are.

Never fear, I won't give up on you, child. You are worth it.

Am I getting a bit too inflammatory for yah, old boy? Unlike you who
promulgate your thoughtful and fairminded and evenhanded and neutral
commentary in these ngs?

Sorry 'bout that.

I guess the reader will have to, between us, "decide for themselves"
as you so often have said.

I sure hope they know how to google and google your ass into the light
of thruth.

Kane

Can't argue on facts, Kane Kan't now resort to WMD - Weapons of Mass
Distraction! ;-)

Doan

On 9 Feb 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote:

And wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and still won't write and answer to
The Question, nor write the simple requirements for debate on the
Embry study, nor provide answers to his claims instead instisting
someone else prove him wrong, instead of proving himself right.

Now why IS that I wonder, other than the possible excuse of that he is
still suffering from the treachery of his parents from childhood?

Frequently Asked Questions

1) What is "alt.parenting.spanking?"

Alt.parenting.spanking is a newsgroup on Usenet. Usenet is a text based system
of distributing postings in a group accessible format, which predates the more
recent World Wide Web by many years.

So far so good.

Some Usenet newsgroups are moderated, which means that one or more individuals
determine what and who may post notes to the newsgroup. Others are unmoderated.
Alt.parenting.spanking is an unmoderated newsgroup.

The following was added by the Doananatory, publically exposing
himself yet again.
Can't even write a FAQ of his own, he has to plagerize another's work
with comments uncited as being by him. Tsk.

As such anyone attempting
to be a NetCensor should be ignored as such.

The just miligned redundant and trite "such" overused by a small boy
who can't find his Funkin' White. R R R R R

2) When did a.p.s. first begin?

Alt.parenting.spanking began on 8 August 1995.


3) What is the purpose of a.p.s.?

Alt.parenting.spanking is a discussion group for the topic of corporal
punishment by parents

The following is an attempt, of course, by our every so neutral "let
them make up their own minds" public Doananism Champ, to limit the
discussion and attempt to redefine spanking to HIS liking rather to
the truth...that "spanking" has more than one standard of evaluation
among the civilised and thinking population. Hence you can see where
HIS reasoning and bogus attempts to mislead and deceive come from.

in a legitimate fashion as defined by relevant law.

And below we return the the poorly plagerized, but in this sentence,
correct statement. ALL considerations of spanking, pro or con, are
welcomed here.

Any notes relating directly or indirectly to the issue of use of corporal
punishment by parents are on topic on a.p.s.


4) What is "spanking?"

Watch him go, he's in high gear now. Notice the use of an inflammatory
term, "inflammatory" when discribing spanking as the use of physical
pain...like spanking isn't painful...sure, Doanantor, sure.

The reasonable non-inflammatory definition of spanking is the legitimate and
legal use of corporal (physical) punishment

I do not believe this ng is designed to discuss only the legal
aspects, as I said before....it's open to ALL discussion, even the
sadly offtopic.

in the furtherance of disciplined
behavior of a child by the parent or legal guardian of said child.

I thought you said, "I let them make up their own mind?'

That above is starting to depart pretty extremely from your claimed
neutrality, as in you want them to get their own information, but here
are trying to fob off a definition of this ng that limits it to the
law instead of the entire field of inquiry.

I guess your moral and ethical bias is becoming more clear today, is
it not?

The form
and manner of such corporal punishment is widely left to the discretion of
said parent or guardian and is fully within their legal rights and
prerogatives up to the point such actions violate the legal statutes.

Actually, Doan, that is not quite what this ng is about. But your
attempt to invade and corrupt the FAQ is certainly what you spanking
compulsives are about. Dishonesty to yourselves, each other, and the
new visitor is duly noted. chuckle

(lest we forget one of our greatest contributors to misinformation and
foolishness....let them eat peppers....yeah that's legal, except when
it isn't.)

I see you are busy pushing "legal" when it isn't all that clear. And
we like to talk about when it isn't clear. How does that wash with
your "parents doing this and that without interference" etc.?

There are those participants in the newsgroup who seek to use inflammatory

Your words appear to me an attempt to defame so as to minimize
arguments against spanking. Is that really fair, given that you are
being inflammatory in your OWN choice of words?

Or is it okay when you and the other compulsives do so because YOU are
RIGHT?

and
emotionalistic, hyperbolic, hysterical and misrepresentative terms and
agenda-serving definitions which only cloud the issue and shut down any
reasonable and meaningful discussion on the topic.

The only thing that get's shut down does so in exactly the way I have
shut YOU down recently....with the truth. You can't handle the heat.
Kitchen door is thataway.

Such should just be pointed
out as such

Ah, the truth of "such"ness is used to hammer the opposition once
again. We are, really we are, just devestated by your command of the
logic and honorable, as well as intelligent argument.

and then ignored as the intentional attempts at disruption that
they are.

If you are going to talk that way about the pro spankers don't you
think folks might get us confused?

The only "attempts at disruption" and you just ran into one a few
weeks ago, are honest confrontations on vital questions of importance
to the safety and well being of children, and in fact, to that of
parents as well that could run afoul of the law if they do NOT take
considerably more pains to seek out information and advice that goes a
bit beyond the Donanation of, "reasonable standards."


5) May spanking fetishists post on a.p.s.?

Anyone can post to an unmoderated newsgroup, as there is little that can be
done to stop them, but since this is a parenting newsgroup, not a fetish
newsgroup, such posts are usually ignored or looked upon with disfavor.

Gee, now why would you cut and snip and otherwise mutilate a very
reasoned and thoughtful invitation, polite too, to take this stuff
elsewhere and substitute this rather vapid bit of prose in it's place?


6)Is "flaming" permitted on a.p.s.?

Since a.p.s. is unmoderated, posters are free to heap insults and slanders on
whomever they wish. Remember you can be insulting and offensive even if you use
only polite and diplomatic terminology and language. Profanity is generally
frowned upon as unnecessarily vulgar.

Interesting...at least to someone that has studied learning theory.
Chris posts a balanced and complete section that focuses on what kind
of behavior is wanted, and encourages folks toward that, when you,
against the commonest and long known and proven learning theory
concepts, focus entirely on the negative, what is not wanted.

You do know that such an approach tends to the anchor the negative in
one's mind thus causing them to surface that very thing in their
behaviors, do you not? No, I guess you do not know that.

But then that is common among punishers, those that are attracted to
compulsively spanking when a child presents and unwanted behavior.

In addition to the obvious division between posters who agree with spanking and
posters who are against spanking, there is also a division between posters who
desire a civil discourse and posters who desire a "flame war." In the past
there have been "flamers" at times on both sides of the spanking issue.

Well, so far Chris had a clear description. Let's see what a
Doananator can do to mess it up, eh?

There
are also those who seem to think they are not flaming when they are,

Doan, you are OUTed at last, and by yourself. Congrats.

who do
not think they are being offensive when they are and who do not think they are
being uncivil when they are.

That's why, when you are doing such a bangup job of it, and likely
neurotically blind to your insults, I lay into you to get your
attention. Have you not noticed that I get more insulting at times?
Just assume you did it again, without knowing it.

That IS a common, in fact majority wise, characteristic of people who
have been spanked in childhood. They are poor readers of others
feelings and thoughts, and very good at deluding themselves they are
making polite intelligent and oh so logical contributions, when in
fact they are often dishonest, peddlers of ignorance as fact, with a
callous regard to the feeling, opinions, and thoughts of
others....more especially children.

Some of those like you...scuse me, some of those like that have left
this ng, and good riddance. And when you grow up you'll find your own
little self being treated with considerably more gentleness. Until
then, yah earn what's yah get, clearly.

Their swaggering selfrighteousness and holier-
than-thou arrogance will become readily apparent in short order.

Tsk, tsk, little braggart and bully, you shouldn't talk about NNN, the
long missing Onanator-lil'O, and other such as such who are such
suchers of suchness.


7) What is a "killfile?"

A killfile is a simple feature of the software which you use to read Usenet
newsgroups. When you place someone's address in your killfile, all of their
notes will cease to appear on your screen. This is generally considered to be
the Usenet equivalent of sticking one's fingers in one's ears and humming.

For you perhaps. For other's it amounts more to smackin' an annoying
humming buzzing mosquito and putting it in a box for safekeeping.

The sole purpose of it is to perpetuate one's own ignorance.

Or to fight off overwhelming boredom with twits such as you that put
yourself in positions of importance you haven't earned or deserve. You
Drone Doan.

Whether or not
you read someone else's posts they can still read yours and respond.

Interesting that, once again, Chris posted, under this subject title,
a very carefully and intelligently thought out bit of advice. He even
points to their use to avoid having to read posts of flame wars, a
perfectly legitimate use. When I'm conversing with you, for instance,
I am really very okay with folks dumping me into the their
twit-filter. They shouldn't have to be annoyed at what I say to annoy
you, and they certainly should not be subjected to the flaming
embarrassment you perpetrate on yourself with you silly childish "I
DARE YOU I DOUBLE DARE YOU" antics and evasions.

Really. Some of us are embarrassed for you, Droan.


8) Are discussions about Child Protective Services on topic on a.p.s.?

Absolutely! Since Children's Protective Services, by whatever local name they
go by, deal with issues of child abuse and since several extreme position
posters continue to claim that all spanking is child abuse, even that which
is clearly legal in all fifty states of the union, the discussion of CPS is
entirely on topic, because people should be entirely aware of what exactly
they are doing and causing if they report someone to one of these agencies.

Let me see now. It's not appropriate to claim that spanking is a bad
thing because it's legal in all states, (I believe you opened early
with this claim) but it's really perfectly okay to post all kinds of
things from ascsp because someone it's a legal thing only...hmmm. Am I
missing something here.

Could you clarify a bit for us, having it both ways wise I mean?

No, of course you won't. YOu never do. YOu just are just one of those
Plantlike Declarative Whine.....opps, WINNERS!

Funny, too. Chris didn't go as far as you in your attempt to control
peoples thinking. He used the word "appropriate" alot, making
suggestions about what is more likely the place to explore CPS issues,
and saying that of course, when you discuss spanking AND CPS then this
is also a good place to post to.

I think you are trying to make out that Chris is saying something he
isn't. Now why WOULD you do that? Why would you keep hammering away at
this FAQ if you didn't have some residual and reactionary response to
some asswhuppins' Chris gave you in the past?

Another newsgroup specifically about CPS is alt.support.child-protective-
services, and posts can be made there as well, but since the world is not as
ultracompartmentalized as some would wish it to be, such posts are also on
topic in a.p.s.

That's just what I say...and I say it about trying to compartmentalize
into false and fabricated compartments, like "parents can decide on
their own" when you can't even answer a simple question about the most
vital of information they DO need, other than to use the vague and
misleading (since it's admitted even by legal experts as unclear and
no standard at all) "reasonable standards."

Those who object most strenuously to posts in the newsgroup about CPS are those
who tend to advocate or play apologist for those agencies and do not wish the
general public to know the truth about these agencies.

And of course here you are again treating us to your wonderful and
pious neutrality. How is it that you don't just tell the to get more
information like you do about spanking? AFraid of what they will find
if they really shovel enough manure aside and get down to the truth?

I hereby invite all who read Doan's smarmy attempt to mislead, once
again, to really dig down, and leave the garbage in ascps behind and
go to government and scientific and social work studies of this issues
of child abuse in this country.

It has little to do with the aside he just offered to lead you
down....sometimes referred to as The Garden Path.

9) Are binary (image) files appropriate for a.p.s.?

Binary files are heavily frowned on throughout Usenet, except in newsgroups
expressly designed for the posting of binary files. Please do not post binary
files to alt.parenting.spanking or other newsgroups without "binaries" in their
names. Compared to the text messages which predominate in Usenet newsgroups,
binary files typically take up much larger amounts of memory space and
require more downloading time. Some readers of alt.parenting.spanking pay for
the online time during which they download new messages to their computers.
They will not be amused to discover that more than half of their download
consisted of a binary file.

I take it back. You ARE honest. You left one issue unchanged.
Congrats. Of course how important it was to the issues discussed here
that you DO lie about remains the question.

Speaking of The Question. How about it?

10) Are fictional stories appropriate for a.p.s.?

It is very unlikely that a fictional story of any sort will be appropriate for
a.p.s. or widely appreciated by readers of a.p.s. Alt.parenting.spanking is
devoted to discussion of how spanking impacts the lives of the current
generation of non-fictional children. Unless your fictional story somehow
relates in a clear and direct manner to real-life spankings of real-life
children, it would be best posted elsewhere.

11) What is a "troll?"

In Usenet parlance, a "troll" is someone who posts notes on a newsgroup
intending to provoke chaos from others while they skip out and leave the
firestorm they created for the regular participants of the newsgroup to deal
with. No one likes a troll, generally speaking.

You seem to do that every few weeks or so, with your post of a phony
FAQ.

But then I do not want anyone claiming you are a troll, so here I am.

SURPRISE!!!!

Ain't we got fun? R R R R R


12) How can I begin posting to a.p.s.?

The best way to read and post to a.p.s. is to use a Usenet "newsreader" devoted
to the purpose. The "rn" newsreader is primitive but servicable. The "tin"
newsreader is recommended. Ask your ISP about accessing Usenet to find out what
is available for someone with your internet account. Also Netscape and Outlook
have newsreader capabilities and are usually available on most PCs.

Yah know, I find this odd little recommendation, not posted by Chris,
fascinating. "tin" and "rn" are far more closed or easily firewalled
while Outlook, especially the Express model, and somewhat Netscape
newsreaders are terribly "porous" to hacking, or should I say
cracking.

Given your technical expertise wouldn't it be more thoughtful and
helpful to recommend more secure and more solidly firewall capable
newsreaders such as Agent, or even the latest addition of Outlook,
specifically, that comes with XP?

Oh, well, probably no big thing. Crackers are pretty much into
everyone's workstation that post to and recieve directly from Usenet.

I guess you forgot to recommend the most secure way of reading mail of
all....a web based, such as google, newsreader.

Glad I can be of assistance.

Alt.parenting.spanking may also be accessed from the world wide web through
any number of newsgroup access sites such as Remarq, Google and others. Some
charge for their services, and others do not.

Hey, guess what. You just DID get one over on Chris. He is remiss in
not updating his FAQ file on this. I'll try to give him a heads up. He
still has google as opting out on this ng. ...though he does point to
the update page.

You want to email him or shall I?

13. Is "terrorism" an appropriate topic for a.p.s?

Of course, not. Those who continued to post on the topic of terrorism
are spamming the group. They are showing that they have no respect for
the participants of a.p.s!

Well, until you start to look into the parenting practice of the
nations that seem to produce and extraordinarily high proportion of
terrorists, which also includes one of the nations with nearly the
highest incident of admitted spanking in the world, the United States
of America.

We have our very on OK bomber, folks that take Civvy models of the AK
47 (real full auto machine guns, AK 47's, are hard to get) in semi
auto...very deadly and high cyclic firing rate, and those folks that
pitch a burning can of gas into a crowded dance hall and kill dozens
and even hundreds, and folks that drive their cars into crowds of
people, even little children, and people that slip into homes at
night, or grab children in the street in broad daylight...well, I'd
say something is setting this off...

And WE brag, well some like Doanantor do, in this ng that 90% or more
of US families use spanking, yet they consider it provacative and
inflammatory of us to bring these two facts into juxtaposition,
pretending it's just Cargo Cult Science.

Me, I kinda sorta tend to go with the long well proven principle that
violence begats violence, and children learn...as well know and use
for everything else....by what they see and hear, and witness.

'course how COULD there possibly be a connection between the violence
in the country and the 90% spanking...after all, the only folks that
do violence are those that were not spanked as children, right?

Doan

Well, at least you signed it. That's to your credit. Somewhere down
under that cringing, terrified child left from your childhood, is an
honorable, decent, honest man. I'm sure of it or I wouldn't bother
with you.

Spanking hurts, just like when I spank you here. Only for a child
there's no escape, until they are grown. None. They have to bear it,
and they have to find a way to that usually amounts to becoming what
you are.

Never fear, I won't give up on you, child. You are worth it.

Am I getting a bit too inflammatory for yah, old boy? Unlike you who
promulgate your thoughtful and fairminded and evenhanded and neutral
commentary in these ngs?

Sorry 'bout that.

I guess the reader will have to, between us, "decide for themselves"
as you so often have said.

I sure hope they know how to google and google your ass into the light
of thruth.

Kane

Doan wrote in message ...
Can't argue on facts, Kane Kan't now resort to WMD - Weapons of Mass
Distraction! ;-)

Droananator, I'll never in a million years have the ability or
interest in WMD that you have.

Or are you about to answer The Question, settle your claims about
"never-spanked" and prove you have the Embry Study?

Talk about Wobbly Meandering Diddling; Osama, you have been found.
{:-

Sure wish your buddies would come to your rescue and ask for the
study. Maybe they would be willing to give up the vital and secret
information of a page number to settle that you have the study?

Or are you just proving once again that you are the Master Baiter?

Kane

Doan

On 9 Feb 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote:

And wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and still won't write and answer to
The Question, nor write the simple requirements for debate on the
Embry study, nor provide answers to his claims instead instisting
someone else prove him wrong, instead of proving himself right.

Now why IS that I wonder, other than the possible excuse of that he is
still suffering from the treachery of his parents from childhood?

Frequently Asked Questions

1) What is "alt.parenting.spanking?"

Alt.parenting.spanking is a newsgroup on Usenet. Usenet is a text based system
of distributing postings in a group accessible format, which predates the more
recent World Wide Web by many years.

So far so good.

Some Usenet newsgroups are moderated, which means that one or more individuals
determine what and who may post notes to the newsgroup. Others are unmoderated.
Alt.parenting.spanking is an unmoderated newsgroup.

The following was added by the Doananatory, publically exposing
himself yet again.
Can't even write a FAQ of his own, he has to plagerize another's work
with comments uncited as being by him. Tsk.

As such anyone attempting
to be a NetCensor should be ignored as such.

The just miligned redundant and trite "such" overused by a small boy
who can't find his Funkin' White. R R R R R

2) When did a.p.s. first begin?

Alt.parenting.spanking began on 8 August 1995.


3) What is the purpose of a.p.s.?

Alt.parenting.spanking is a discussion group for the topic of corporal
punishment by parents

The following is an attempt, of course, by our every so neutral "let
them make up their own minds" public Doananism Champ, to limit the
discussion and attempt to redefine spanking to HIS liking rather to
the truth...that "spanking" has more than one standard of evaluation
among the civilised and thinking population. Hence you can see where
HIS reasoning and bogus attempts to mislead and deceive come from.

in a legitimate fashion as defined by relevant law.

And below we return the the poorly plagerized, but in this sentence,
correct statement. ALL considerations of spanking, pro or con, are
welcomed here.

Any notes relating directly or indirectly to the issue of use of corporal
punishment by parents are on topic on a.p.s.


4) What is "spanking?"

Watch him go, he's in high gear now. Notice the use of an inflammatory
term, "inflammatory" when discribing spanking as the use of physical
pain...like spanking isn't painful...sure, Doanantor, sure.

The reasonable non-inflammatory definition of spanking is the legitimate and
legal use of corporal (physical) punishment

I do not believe this ng is designed to discuss only the legal
aspects, as I said before....it's open to ALL discussion, even the
sadly offtopic.

in the furtherance of disciplined
behavior of a child by the parent or legal guardian of said child.

I thought you said, "I let them make up their own mind?'

That above is starting to depart pretty extremely from your claimed
neutrality, as in you want them to get their own information, but here
are trying to fob off a definition of this ng that limits it to the
law instead of the entire field of inquiry.

I guess your moral and ethical bias is becoming more clear today, is
it not?

The form
and manner of such corporal punishment is widely left to the discretion of
said parent or guardian and is fully within their legal rights and
prerogatives up to the point such actions violate the legal statutes.

Actually, Doan, that is not quite what this ng is about. But your
attempt to invade and corrupt the FAQ is certainly what you spanking
compulsives are about. Dishonesty to yourselves, each other, and the
new visitor is duly noted. chuckle

(lest we forget one of our greatest contributors to misinformation and
foolishness....let them eat peppers....yeah that's legal, except when
it isn't.)

I see you are busy pushing "legal" when it isn't all that clear. And
we like to talk about when it isn't clear. How does that wash with
your "parents doing this and that without interference" etc.?

There are those participants in the newsgroup who seek to use inflammatory

Your words appear to me an attempt to defame so as to minimize
arguments against spanking. Is that really fair, given that you are
being inflammatory in your OWN choice of words?

Or is it okay when you and the other compulsives do so because YOU are
RIGHT?

and
emotionalistic, hyperbolic, hysterical and misrepresentative terms and
agenda-serving definitions which only cloud the issue and shut down any
reasonable and meaningful discussion on the topic.

The only thing that get's shut down does so in exactly the way I have
shut YOU down recently....with the truth. You can't handle the heat.
Kitchen door is thataway.

Such should just be pointed
out as such

Ah, the truth of "such"ness is used to hammer the opposition once
again. We are, really we are, just devestated by your command of the
logic and honorable, as well as intelligent argument.

and then ignored as the intentional attempts at disruption that
they are.

If you are going to talk that way about the pro spankers don't you
think folks might get us confused?

The only "attempts at disruption" and you just ran into one a few
weeks ago, are honest confrontations on vital questions of importance
to the safety and well being of children, and in fact, to that of
parents as well that could run afoul of the law if they do NOT take
considerably more pains to seek out information and advice that goes a
bit beyond the Donanation of, "reasonable standards."


5) May spanking fetishists post on a.p.s.?

Anyone can post to an unmoderated newsgroup, as there is little that can be
done to stop them, but since this is a parenting newsgroup, not a fetish
newsgroup, such posts are usually ignored or looked upon with disfavor.

Gee, now why would you cut and snip and otherwise mutilate a very
reasoned and thoughtful invitation, polite too, to take this stuff
elsewhere and substitute this rather vapid bit of prose in it's place?


6)Is "flaming" permitted on a.p.s.?

Since a.p.s. is unmoderated, posters are free to heap insults and slanders on
whomever they wish. Remember you can be insulting and offensive even if you use
only polite and diplomatic terminology and language. Profanity is generally
frowned upon as unnecessarily vulgar.

Interesting...at least to someone that has studied learning theory.
Chris posts a balanced and complete section that focuses on what kind
of behavior is wanted, and encourages folks toward that, when you,
against the commonest and long known and proven learning theory
concepts, focus entirely on the negative, what is not wanted.

You do know that such an approach tends to the anchor the negative in
one's mind thus causing them to surface that very thing in their
behaviors, do you not? No, I guess you do not know that.

But then that is common among punishers, those that are attracted to
compulsively spanking when a child presents and unwanted behavior.

In addition to the obvious division between posters who agree with spanking and
posters who are against spanking, there is also a division between posters who
desire a civil discourse and posters who desire a "flame war." In the past
there have been "flamers" at times on both sides of the spanking issue.

Well, so far Chris had a clear description. Let's see what a
Doananator can do to mess it up, eh?

There
are also those who seem to think they are not flaming when they are,

Doan, you are OUTed at last, and by yourself. Congrats.

who do
not think they are being offensive when they are and who do not think they are
being uncivil when they are.

That's why, when you are doing such a bangup job of it, and likely
neurotically blind to your insults, I lay into you to get your
attention. Have you not noticed that I get more insulting at times?
Just assume you did it again, without knowing it.

That IS a common, in fact majority wise, characteristic of people who
have been spanked in childhood. They are poor readers of others
feelings and thoughts, and very good at deluding themselves they are
making polite intelligent and oh so logical contributions, when in
fact they are often dishonest, peddlers of ignorance as fact, with a
callous regard to the feeling, opinions, and thoughts of
others....more especially children.

Some of those like you...scuse me, some of those like that have left
this ng, and good riddance. And when you grow up you'll find your own
little self being treated with considerably more gentleness. Until
then, yah earn what's yah get, clearly.

Their swaggering selfrighteousness and holier-
than-thou arrogance will become readily apparent in short order.

Tsk, tsk, little braggart and bully, you shouldn't talk about NNN, the
long missing Onanator-lil'O, and other such as such who are such
suchers of suchness.


7) What is a "killfile?"

A killfile is a simple feature of the software which you use to read Usenet
newsgroups. When you place someone's address in your killfile, all of their
notes will cease to appear on your screen. This is generally considered to be
the Usenet equivalent of sticking one's fingers in one's ears and humming.

For you perhaps. For other's it amounts more to smackin' an annoying
humming buzzing mosquito and putting it in a box for safekeeping.

The sole purpose of it is to perpetuate one's own ignorance.

Or to fight off overwhelming boredom with twits such as you that put
yourself in positions of importance you haven't earned or deserve. You
Drone Doan.

Whether or not
you read someone else's posts they can still read yours and respond.

Interesting that, once again, Chris posted, under this subject title,
a very carefully and intelligently thought out bit of advice. He even
points to their use to avoid having to read posts of flame wars, a
perfectly legitimate use. When I'm conversing with you, for instance,
I am really very okay with folks dumping me into the their
twit-filter. They shouldn't have to be annoyed at what I say to annoy
you, and they certainly should not be subjected to the flaming
embarrassment you perpetrate on yourself with you silly childish "I
DARE YOU I DOUBLE DARE YOU" antics and evasions.

Really. Some of us are embarrassed for you, Droan.


8) Are discussions about Child Protective Services on topic on a.p.s.?

Absolutely! Since Children's Protective Services, by whatever local name they
go by, deal with issues of child abuse and since several extreme position
posters continue to claim that all spanking is child abuse, even that which
is clearly legal in all fifty states of the union, the discussion of CPS is
entirely on topic, because people should be entirely aware of what exactly
they are doing and causing if they report someone to one of these agencies.

Let me see now. It's not appropriate to claim that spanking is a bad
thing because it's legal in all states, (I believe you opened early
with this claim) but it's really perfectly okay to post all kinds of
things from ascsp because someone it's a legal thing only...hmmm. Am I
missing something here.

Could you clarify a bit for us, having it both ways wise I mean?

No, of course you won't. YOu never do. YOu just are just one of those
Plantlike Declarative Whine.....opps, WINNERS!

Funny, too. Chris didn't go as far as you in your attempt to control
peoples thinking. He used the word "appropriate" alot, making
suggestions about what is more likely the place to explore CPS issues,
and saying that of course, when you discuss spanking AND CPS then this
is also a good place to post to.

I think you are trying to make out that Chris is saying something he
isn't. Now why WOULD you do that? Why would you keep hammering away at
this FAQ if you didn't have some residual and reactionary response to
some asswhuppins' Chris gave you in the past?

Another newsgroup specifically about CPS is alt.support.child-protective-
services, and posts can be made there as well, but since the world is not as
ultracompartmentalized as some would wish it to be, such posts are also on
topic in a.p.s.

That's just what I say...and I say it about trying to compartmentalize
into false and fabricated compartments, like "parents can decide on
their own" when you can't even answer a simple question about the most
vital of information they DO need, other than to use the vague and
misleading (since it's admitted even by legal experts as unclear and
no standard at all) "reasonable standards."

Those who object most strenuously to posts in the newsgroup about CPS are those
who tend to advocate or play apologist for those agencies and do not wish the
general public to know the truth about these agencies.

And of course here you are again treating us to your wonderful and
pious neutrality. How is it that you don't just tell the to get more
information like you do about spanking? AFraid of what they will find
if they really shovel enough manure aside and get down to the truth?

I hereby invite all who read Doan's smarmy attempt to mislead, once
again, to really dig down, and leave the garbage in ascps behind and
go to government and scientific and social work studies of this issues
of child abuse in this country.

It has little to do with the aside he just offered to lead you
down....sometimes referred to as The Garden Path.

9) Are binary (image) files appropriate for a.p.s.?

Binary files are heavily frowned on throughout Usenet, except in newsgroups
expressly designed for the posting of binary files. Please do not post binary
files to alt.parenting.spanking or other newsgroups without "binaries" in their
names. Compared to the text messages which predominate in Usenet newsgroups,
binary files typically take up much larger amounts of memory space and
require more downloading time. Some readers of alt.parenting.spanking pay for
the online time during which they download new messages to their computers.
They will not be amused to discover that more than half of their download
consisted of a binary file.

I take it back. You ARE honest. You left one issue unchanged.
Congrats. Of course how important it was to the issues discussed here
that you DO lie about remains the question.

Speaking of The Question. How about it?

10) Are fictional stories appropriate for a.p.s.?

It is very unlikely that a fictional story of any sort will be appropriate for
a.p.s. or widely appreciated by readers of a.p.s. Alt.parenting.spanking is
devoted to discussion of how spanking impacts the lives of the current
generation of non-fictional children. Unless your fictional story somehow
relates in a clear and direct manner to real-life spankings of real-life
children, it would be best posted elsewhere.

11) What is a "troll?"

In Usenet parlance, a "troll" is someone who posts notes on a newsgroup
intending to provoke chaos from others while they skip out and leave the
firestorm they created for the regular participants of the newsgroup to deal
with. No one likes a troll, generally speaking.

You seem to do that every few weeks or so, with your post of a phony
FAQ.

But then I do not want anyone claiming you are a troll, so here I am.

SURPRISE!!!!

Ain't we got fun? R R R R R


12) How can I begin posting to a.p.s.?

The best way to read and post to a.p.s. is to use a Usenet "newsreader" devoted
to the purpose. The "rn" newsreader is primitive but servicable. The "tin"
newsreader is recommended. Ask your ISP about accessing Usenet to find out what
is available for someone with your internet account. Also Netscape and Outlook
have newsreader capabilities and are usually available on most PCs.

Yah know, I find this odd little recommendation, not posted by Chris,
fascinating. "tin" and "rn" are far more closed or easily firewalled
while Outlook, especially the Express model, and somewhat Netscape
newsreaders are terribly "porous" to hacking, or should I say
cracking.

Given your technical expertise wouldn't it be more thoughtful and
helpful to recommend more secure and more solidly firewall capable
newsreaders such as Agent, or even the latest addition of Outlook,
specifically, that comes with XP?

Oh, well, probably no big thing. Crackers are pretty much into
everyone's workstation that post to and recieve directly from Usenet.

I guess you forgot to recommend the most secure way of reading mail of
all....a web based, such as google, newsreader.

Glad I can be of assistance.

Alt.parenting.spanking may also be accessed from the world wide web through
any number of newsgroup access sites such as Remarq, Google and others. Some
charge for their services, and others do not.

Hey, guess what. You just DID get one over on Chris. He is remiss in
not updating his FAQ file on this. I'll try to give him a heads up. He
still has google as opting out on this ng. ...though he does point to
the update page.

You want to email him or shall I?

13. Is "terrorism" an appropriate topic for a.p.s?

Of course, not. Those who continued to post on the topic of terrorism
are spamming the group. They are showing that they have no respect for
the participants of a.p.s!

Well, until you start to look into the parenting practice of the
nations that seem to produce and extraordinarily high proportion of
terrorists, which also includes one of the nations with nearly the
highest incident of admitted spanking in the world, the United States
of America.

We have our very on OK bomber, folks that take Civvy models of the AK
47 (real full auto machine guns, AK 47's, are hard to get) in semi
auto...very deadly and high cyclic firing rate, and those folks that
pitch a burning can of gas into a crowded dance hall and kill dozens
and even hundreds, and folks that drive their cars into crowds of
people, even little children, and people that slip into homes at
night, or grab children in the street in broad daylight...well, I'd
say something is setting this off...

And WE brag, well some like Doanantor do, in this ng that 90% or more
of US families use spanking, yet they consider it provacative and
inflammatory of us to bring these two facts into juxtaposition,
pretending it's just Cargo Cult Science.

Me, I kinda sorta tend to go with the long well proven principle that
violence begats violence, and children learn...as well know and use
for everything else....by what they see and hear, and witness.

'course how COULD there possibly be a connection between the violence
in the country and the 90% spanking...after all, the only folks that
do violence are those that were not spanked as children, right?

Doan

Well, at least you signed it. That's to your credit. Somewhere down
under that cringing, terrified child left from your childhood, is an
honorable, decent, honest man. I'm sure of it or I wouldn't bother
with you.

Spanking hurts, just like when I spank you here. Only for a child
there's no escape, until they are grown. None. They have to bear it,
and they have to find a way to that usually amounts to becoming what
you are.

Never fear, I won't give up on you, child. You are worth it.

Am I getting a bit too inflammatory for yah, old boy? Unlike you who
promulgate your thoughtful and fairminded and evenhanded and neutral
commentary in these ngs?

Sorry 'bout that.

I guess the reader will have to, between us, "decide for themselves"
as you so often have said.

I sure hope they know how to google and google your ass into the light
of thruth.

Kane

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:03:50 -0800, Doan wrote:


Can't argue on facts,

I don't recall offering to except as in my challenge to you, and my
criteria for debate. YOU have failed to meet the criteria. You don't
want me going back on my word and opening debate against my honor
bound limits, now do you, Droan?

Kane Kan't now resort to WMD - Weapons of Mass
Distraction! ;-)

And WMD is certainly not a distraction from The Simply
Question...nosireebobb....r r r r r r. snicker

So here's a good faith disclosure, just to prime your little pump.

(Can you imagine me expecting good faith with YOU? R R R)

The beginning page number for the demographics of the study subjects
is 11, with the title subject as "Method" and below it, the word
"Subjects."

There now, was that all that hard? Naw. I could answer it, why
couldn't you?

Now, Doan, show us your stuff.

It's your turn to show what a moral and ethical giant you are, in
service to getting on with the important debate that you so want
parents to have.....more information, right?

On what page does Dr. Embry mention the word Wilkening?

You DO want to prove me a liar, right?

So tell us, do you think I don't have the study still? Do you believe
I am making up the number and information from the study? And is
Wilkening the name of my cat?

And will you EVER answer The Simple Question, and clarify your silly
schoolboy taunt of "never-spanked" that you challenge me to disprove
(thereby showing your debating ethics...as a nonexistent charge or
claim cannot be disproved) and answer a simple question that will
prove your claim you have The Study?

Naw, you don't want to debate the Embry study. You want as much
distance and fogging as possible between you and The Simple Question.

Want to go back to insisting that Chris and LaVonne join in now? Or
could you be more creative and come up with another colorful dodge?

Doan

Kane {:-


On 9 Feb 2004, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote:

And wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and still won't write and answer
to
The Question, nor write the simple requirements for debate on the
Embry study, nor provide answers to his claims instead instisting
someone else prove him wrong, instead of proving himself right.

Now why IS that I wonder, other than the possible excuse of that he
is
still suffering from the treachery of his parents from childhood?

Frequently Asked Questions

1) What is "alt.parenting.spanking?"

Alt.parenting.spanking is a newsgroup on Usenet. Usenet is a text
based system
of distributing postings in a group accessible format, which
predates the more
recent World Wide Web by many years.

So far so good.

Some Usenet newsgroups are moderated, which means that one or
more individuals
determine what and who may post notes to the newsgroup. Others
are unmoderated.
Alt.parenting.spanking is an unmoderated newsgroup.

The following was added by the Doananatory, publically exposing
himself yet again.
Can't even write a FAQ of his own, he has to plagerize another's
work
with comments uncited as being by him. Tsk.

As such anyone attempting
to be a NetCensor should be ignored as such.

The just miligned redundant and trite "such" overused by a small
boy
who can't find his Funkin' White. R R R R R

2) When did a.p.s. first begin?

Alt.parenting.spanking began on 8 August 1995.


3) What is the purpose of a.p.s.?

Alt.parenting.spanking is a discussion group for the topic of
corporal
punishment by parents

The following is an attempt, of course, by our every so neutral
"let
them make up their own minds" public Doananism Champ, to limit the
discussion and attempt to redefine spanking to HIS liking rather to
the truth...that "spanking" has more than one standard of
evaluation
among the civilised and thinking population. Hence you can see
where
HIS reasoning and bogus attempts to mislead and deceive come from.

in a legitimate fashion as defined by relevant law.

And below we return the the poorly plagerized, but in this
sentence,
correct statement. ALL considerations of spanking, pro or con, are
welcomed here.

Any notes relating directly or indirectly to the issue of use of
corporal
punishment by parents are on topic on a.p.s.


4) What is "spanking?"

Watch him go, he's in high gear now. Notice the use of an
inflammatory
term, "inflammatory" when discribing spanking as the use of
physical
pain...like spanking isn't painful...sure, Doanantor, sure.

The reasonable non-inflammatory definition of spanking is the
legitimate and
legal use of corporal (physical) punishment

I do not believe this ng is designed to discuss only the legal
aspects, as I said before....it's open to ALL discussion, even the
sadly offtopic.

in the furtherance of disciplined
behavior of a child by the parent or legal guardian of said
child.

I thought you said, "I let them make up their own mind?'

That above is starting to depart pretty extremely from your claimed
neutrality, as in you want them to get their own information, but
here
are trying to fob off a definition of this ng that limits it to the
law instead of the entire field of inquiry.

I guess your moral and ethical bias is becoming more clear today,
is
it not?

The form
and manner of such corporal punishment is widely left to the
discretion of
said parent or guardian and is fully within their legal rights
and
prerogatives up to the point such actions violate the legal
statutes.

Actually, Doan, that is not quite what this ng is about. But your
attempt to invade and corrupt the FAQ is certainly what you
spanking
compulsives are about. Dishonesty to yourselves, each other, and
the
new visitor is duly noted. chuckle

(lest we forget one of our greatest contributors to misinformation
and
foolishness....let them eat peppers....yeah that's legal, except
when
it isn't.)

I see you are busy pushing "legal" when it isn't all that clear.
And
we like to talk about when it isn't clear. How does that wash with
your "parents doing this and that without interference" etc.?

There are those participants in the newsgroup who seek to use
inflammatory

Your words appear to me an attempt to defame so as to minimize
arguments against spanking. Is that really fair, given that you are
being inflammatory in your OWN choice of words?

Or is it okay when you and the other compulsives do so because YOU
are
RIGHT?

and
emotionalistic, hyperbolic, hysterical and misrepresentative
terms and
agenda-serving definitions which only cloud the issue and shut
down any
reasonable and meaningful discussion on the topic.

The only thing that get's shut down does so in exactly the way I
have
shut YOU down recently....with the truth. You can't handle the
heat.
Kitchen door is thataway.

Such should just be pointed
out as such

Ah, the truth of "such"ness is used to hammer the opposition once
again. We are, really we are, just devestated by your command of
the
logic and honorable, as well as intelligent argument.

and then ignored as the intentional attempts at disruption that
they are.

If you are going to talk that way about the pro spankers don't you
think folks might get us confused?

The only "attempts at disruption" and you just ran into one a few
weeks ago, are honest confrontations on vital questions of
importance
to the safety and well being of children, and in fact, to that of
parents as well that could run afoul of the law if they do NOT take
considerably more pains to seek out information and advice that
goes a
bit beyond the Donanation of, "reasonable standards."


5) May spanking fetishists post on a.p.s.?

Anyone can post to an unmoderated newsgroup, as there is little
that can be
done to stop them, but since this is a parenting newsgroup, not a
fetish
newsgroup, such posts are usually ignored or looked upon with
disfavor.

Gee, now why would you cut and snip and otherwise mutilate a very
reasoned and thoughtful invitation, polite too, to take this stuff
elsewhere and substitute this rather vapid bit of prose in it's
place?


6)Is "flaming" permitted on a.p.s.?

Since a.p.s. is unmoderated, posters are free to heap insults and
slanders on
whomever they wish. Remember you can be insulting and offensive
even if you use
only polite and diplomatic terminology and language. Profanity
is generally
frowned upon as unnecessarily vulgar.

Interesting...at least to someone that has studied learning theory.
Chris posts a balanced and complete section that focuses on what
kind
of behavior is wanted, and encourages folks toward that, when you,
against the commonest and long known and proven learning theory
concepts, focus entirely on the negative, what is not wanted.

You do know that such an approach tends to the anchor the negative
in
one's mind thus causing them to surface that very thing in their
behaviors, do you not? No, I guess you do not know that.

But then that is common among punishers, those that are attracted
to
compulsively spanking when a child presents and unwanted behavior.

In addition to the obvious division between posters who agree
with spanking and
posters who are against spanking, there is also a division
between posters who
desire a civil discourse and posters who desire a "flame war." In
the past
there have been "flamers" at times on both sides of the spanking
issue.

Well, so far Chris had a clear description. Let's see what a
Doananator can do to mess it up, eh?

There
are also those who seem to think they are not flaming when they
are,

Doan, you are OUTed at last, and by yourself. Congrats.

who do
not think they are being offensive when they are and who do not
think they are
being uncivil when they are.

That's why, when you are doing such a bangup job of it, and likely
neurotically blind to your insults, I lay into you to get your
attention. Have you not noticed that I get more insulting at times?
Just assume you did it again, without knowing it.

That IS a common, in fact majority wise, characteristic of people
who
have been spanked in childhood. They are poor readers of others
feelings and thoughts, and very good at deluding themselves they
are
making polite intelligent and oh so logical contributions, when in
fact they are often dishonest, peddlers of ignorance as fact, with
a
callous regard to the feeling, opinions, and thoughts of
others....more especially children.

Some of those like you...scuse me, some of those like that have
left
this ng, and good riddance. And when you grow up you'll find your
own
little self being treated with considerably more gentleness. Until
then, yah earn what's yah get, clearly.

Their swaggering selfrighteousness and holier-
than-thou arrogance will become readily apparent in short order.

Tsk, tsk, little braggart and bully, you shouldn't talk about NNN,
the
long missing Onanator-lil'O, and other such as such who are such
suchers of suchness.


7) What is a "killfile?"

A killfile is a simple feature of the software which you use to
read Usenet
newsgroups. When you place someone's address in your killfile,
all of their
notes will cease to appear on your screen. This is generally
considered to be
the Usenet equivalent of sticking one's fingers in one's ears and
humming.

For you perhaps. For other's it amounts more to smackin' an
annoying
humming buzzing mosquito and putting it in a box for safekeeping.

The sole purpose of it is to perpetuate one's own ignorance.

Or to fight off overwhelming boredom with twits such as you that
put
yourself in positions of importance you haven't earned or deserve.
You
Drone Doan.

Whether or not
you read someone else's posts they can still read yours and
respond.

Interesting that, once again, Chris posted, under this subject
title,
a very carefully and intelligently thought out bit of advice. He
even
points to their use to avoid having to read posts of flame wars, a
perfectly legitimate use. When I'm conversing with you, for
instance,
I am really very okay with folks dumping me into the their
twit-filter. They shouldn't have to be annoyed at what I say to
annoy
you, and they certainly should not be subjected to the flaming
embarrassment you perpetrate on yourself with you silly childish "I
DARE YOU I DOUBLE DARE YOU" antics and evasions.

Really. Some of us are embarrassed for you, Droan.


8) Are discussions about Child Protective Services on topic on
a.p.s.?

Absolutely! Since Children's Protective Services, by whatever
local name they
go by, deal with issues of child abuse and since several extreme
position
posters continue to claim that all spanking is child abuse, even
that which
is clearly legal in all fifty states of the union, the discussion
of CPS is
entirely on topic, because people should be entirely aware of
what exactly
they are doing and causing if they report someone to one of these
agencies.

Let me see now. It's not appropriate to claim that spanking is a
bad
thing because it's legal in all states, (I believe you opened early
with this claim) but it's really perfectly okay to post all kinds
of
things from ascsp because someone it's a legal thing only...hmmm.
Am I
missing something here.

Could you clarify a bit for us, having it both ways wise I mean?

No, of course you won't. YOu never do. YOu just are just one of
those
Plantlike Declarative Whine.....opps, WINNERS!

Funny, too. Chris didn't go as far as you in your attempt to
control
peoples thinking. He used the word "appropriate" alot, making
suggestions about what is more likely the place to explore CPS
issues,
and saying that of course, when you discuss spanking AND CPS then
this
is also a good place to post to.

I think you are trying to make out that Chris is saying something
he
isn't. Now why WOULD you do that? Why would you keep hammering away
at
this FAQ if you didn't have some residual and reactionary response
to
some asswhuppins' Chris gave you in the past?

Another newsgroup specifically about CPS is
alt.support.child-protective-
services, and posts can be made there as well, but since the
world is not as
ultracompartmentalized as some would wish it to be, such posts
are also on
topic in a.p.s.

That's just what I say...and I say it about trying to
compartmentalize
into false and fabricated compartments, like "parents can decide on
their own" when you can't even answer a simple question about the
most
vital of information they DO need, other than to use the vague and
misleading (since it's admitted even by legal experts as unclear
and
no standard at all) "reasonable standards."

Those who object most strenuously to posts in the newsgroup about
CPS are those
who tend to advocate or play apologist for those agencies and do
not wish the
general public to know the truth about these agencies.

And of course here you are again treating us to your wonderful and
pious neutrality. How is it that you don't just tell the to get
more
information like you do about spanking? AFraid of what they will
find
if they really shovel enough manure aside and get down to the
truth?

I hereby invite all who read Doan's smarmy attempt to mislead, once
again, to really dig down, and leave the garbage in ascps behind
and
go to government and scientific and social work studies of this
issues
of child abuse in this country.

It has little to do with the aside he just offered to lead you
down....sometimes referred to as The Garden Path.

9) Are binary (image) files appropriate for a.p.s.?

Binary files are heavily frowned on throughout Usenet, except in
newsgroups
expressly designed for the posting of binary files. Please do not
post binary
files to alt.parenting.spanking or other newsgroups without
"binaries" in their
names. Compared to the text messages which predominate in Usenet
newsgroups,
binary files typically take up much larger amounts of memory
space and
require more downloading time. Some readers of
alt.parenting.spanking pay for
the online time during which they download new messages to their
computers.
They will not be amused to discover that more than half of their
download
consisted of a binary file.

I take it back. You ARE honest. You left one issue unchanged.
Congrats. Of course how important it was to the issues discussed
here
that you DO lie about remains the question.

Speaking of The Question. How about it?

10) Are fictional stories appropriate for a.p.s.?

It is very unlikely that a fictional story of any sort will be
appropriate for
a.p.s. or widely appreciated by readers of a.p.s.
Alt.parenting.spanking is
devoted to discussion of how spanking impacts the lives of the
current
generation of non-fictional children. Unless your fictional story
somehow
relates in a clear and direct manner to real-life spankings of
real-life
children, it would be best posted elsewhere.

11) What is a "troll?"

In Usenet parlance, a "troll" is someone who posts notes on a
newsgroup
intending to provoke chaos from others while they skip out and
leave the
firestorm they created for the regular participants of the
newsgroup to deal
with. No one likes a troll, generally speaking.

You seem to do that every few weeks or so, with your post of a
phony
FAQ.

But then I do not want anyone claiming you are a troll, so here I
am.

SURPRISE!!!!

Ain't we got fun? R R R R R


12) How can I begin posting to a.p.s.?

The best way to read and post to a.p.s. is to use a Usenet
"newsreader" devoted
to the purpose. The "rn" newsreader is primitive but servicable.
The "tin"
newsreader is recommended. Ask your ISP about accessing Usenet to
find out what
is available for someone with your internet account. Also
Netscape and Outlook
have newsreader capabilities and are usually available on most
PCs.

Yah know, I find this odd little recommendation, not posted by
Chris,
fascinating. "tin" and "rn" are far more closed or easily
firewalled
while Outlook, especially the Express model, and somewhat Netscape
newsreaders are terribly "porous" to hacking, or should I say
cracking.

Given your technical expertise wouldn't it be more thoughtful and
helpful to recommend more secure and more solidly firewall capable
newsreaders such as Agent, or even the latest addition of Outlook,
specifically, that comes with XP?

Oh, well, probably no big thing. Crackers are pretty much into
everyone's workstation that post to and recieve directly from
Usenet.

I guess you forgot to recommend the most secure way of reading mail
of
all....a web based, such as google, newsreader.

Glad I can be of assistance.

Alt.parenting.spanking may also be accessed from the world wide
web through
any number of newsgroup access sites such as Remarq, Google and
others. Some
charge for their services, and others do not.

Hey, guess what. You just DID get one over on Chris. He is remiss
in
not updating his FAQ file on this. I'll try to give him a heads up.
He
still has google as opting out on this ng. ...though he does point
to
the update page.

You want to email him or shall I?

13. Is "terrorism" an appropriate topic for a.p.s?

Of course, not. Those who continued to post on the topic of
terrorism
are spamming the group. They are showing that they have no
respect for
the participants of a.p.s!

Well, until you start to look into the parenting practice of the
nations that seem to produce and extraordinarily high proportion of
terrorists, which also includes one of the nations with nearly the
highest incident of admitted spanking in the world, the United
States
of America.

We have our very on OK bomber, folks that take Civvy models of the
AK
47 (real full auto machine guns, AK 47's, are hard to get) in semi
auto...very deadly and high cyclic firing rate, and those folks
that
pitch a burning can of gas into a crowded dance hall and kill
dozens
and even hundreds, and folks that drive their cars into crowds of
people, even little children, and people that slip into homes at
night, or grab children in the street in broad daylight...well, I'd
say something is setting this off...

And WE brag, well some like Doanantor do, in this ng that 90% or
more
of US families use spanking, yet they consider it provacative and
inflammatory of us to bring these two facts into juxtaposition,
pretending it's just Cargo Cult Science.

Me, I kinda sorta tend to go with the long well proven principle
that
violence begats violence, and children learn...as well know and use
for everything else....by what they see and hear, and witness.

'course how COULD there possibly be a connection between the
violence
in the country and the 90% spanking...after all, the only folks
that
do violence are those that were not spanked as children, right?

Doan

Well, at least you signed it. That's to your credit. Somewhere down
under that cringing, terrified child left from your childhood, is
an
honorable, decent, honest man. I'm sure of it or I wouldn't bother
with you.

Spanking hurts, just like when I spank you here. Only for a child
there's no escape, until they are grown. None. They have to bear
it,
and they have to find a way to that usually amounts to becoming
what
you are.

Never fear, I won't give up on you, child. You are worth it.

Am I getting a bit too inflammatory for yah, old boy? Unlike you
who
promulgate your thoughtful and fairminded and evenhanded and
neutral
commentary in these ngs?

Sorry 'bout that.

I guess the reader will have to, between us, "decide for
themselves"
as you so often have said.

I sure hope they know how to google and google your ass into the
light
of thruth.

Kane

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:57:56 -0800, Doan wrote:

On 27 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:12:17 -0800, Doan wrote:

....more evasive babble. Little boy, I been on yer dance card for
many
weeks now but you, shyly peeking from behind your dance seem
reluctant
to grant me the dance YOU invited me to.

Why is that, I wonder?

More Kane9 Kan't dance. How pathetic! :-0

I'm not the one refusing the answer to simple questions that would
prove conclusively you have the report.

You wouldn't even respond when I offered to answer your questions as
long as you provided a page number to the location in the report...now
why would dodge something so easy that could nail me conclusively I
wonder. R R R R R


So were you lying or just being stupid, Kane9? ;-)

So are you just dodging, or just weaseling, AGAIN, Doananator?

Can't answer the Question, Kane9?

I don't see that you asked one. What Question are you referring to?

I can and have answer my The Question. And it's inassailable.

The only way you could prove MY answer wrong is to prove you have the
line located and can define it in terms that are practically useful to
parents in their day to day parenting....which is what question asked.

I didn't ask for a vague rule of thumb, but a precise definition on a
par with the exactness of a speed limit sign. Or did you not
understand the question?

Doan............

Droany.......who to turn to if you want an experienced escape hatch
builder.

Kane ...who to turn to if you want an experienced kicker of weasel-ass
through escape hatches.

Barking like a dog, Kane8?

Doan

a123sdg321

On 21 Feb 2004, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:57:56 -0800, Doan wrote:

On 27 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:12:17 -0800, Doan wrote:

....more evasive babble. Little boy, I been on yer dance card for
many
weeks now but you, shyly peeking from behind your dance seem
reluctant
to grant me the dance YOU invited me to.

Why is that, I wonder?

More Kane9 Kan't dance. How pathetic! :-0

I'm not the one refusing the answer to simple questions that would
prove conclusively you have the report.

You wouldn't even respond when I offered to answer your questions as
long as you provided a page number to the location in the report...now
why would dodge something so easy that could nail me conclusively I
wonder. R R R R R


So were you lying or just being stupid, Kane9? ;-)

So are you just dodging, or just weaseling, AGAIN, Doananator?

Can't answer the Question, Kane9?

I don't see that you asked one. What Question are you referring to?

I can and have answer my The Question. And it's inassailable.

The only way you could prove MY answer wrong is to prove you have the
line located and can define it in terms that are practically useful to
parents in their day to day parenting....which is what question asked.

I didn't ask for a vague rule of thumb, but a precise definition on a
par with the exactness of a speed limit sign. Or did you not
understand the question?

Doan............

Droany.......who to turn to if you want an experienced escape hatch
builder.

Kane ...who to turn to if you want an experienced kicker of weasel-ass
through escape hatches.

Doan wrote:

Barking like a dog, Kane8?
----------------------------
The **** is in your mouth, you're looking in the mirror.
See the reflections!
Steve

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

Barking like a dog, Kane8?
----------------------------
The **** is in your mouth, you're looking in the mirror.
See the reflections!
Steve

I see you! ;-)

Doan