Vaccines and Autism: Looking for the Truth? Study the Amish

Jeff wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Some facts:

1) Mainstream publications in the USA have not published speculations
that
Thimerosal may be damaging. Mainstream publications in the USA
have
repeatedly published stories that Thimerosal is NOT damaging. This
is like mainstream publications repeatedly publishing "xy killer
not guilty",
without having published a single story about "xy killer charged".
This is absured behavior, and can only be planted.

Incorrect. The reason why the mainstream publications repeatedly publish
that vaccines don't cause autism is because the fact is that vaccines don't

It's also a fact that someone _speculated_ that toxic levels
of mercury in vaccines may be causing autism. That speculation
was very valid science; all good science starts out of
such speculations.

Why wasn't that speculation newsworthy? Why are the (false)
refutations newsworthy, then? Why is it never newsworthy when
the refutations turn out to be crooked?

Why so many refutations? Why wasn't one enough?

cause autism. In this case, the truth wins out.

Jeffie boy, truth does win out, and bad boys do
get taken care of in the end. You don't believe
that now, but you will someday. Everything adds up.
You will too.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Jeff wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Some facts:

1) Mainstream publications in the USA have not published speculations
that
Thimerosal may be damaging. Mainstream publications in the USA
have
repeatedly published stories that Thimerosal is NOT damaging. This
is like mainstream publications repeatedly publishing "xy killer
not guilty",
without having published a single story about "xy killer charged".
This is absured behavior, and can only be planted.

Incorrect. The reason why the mainstream publications repeatedly publish
that vaccines don't cause autism is because the fact is that vaccines
don't

It's also a fact that someone _speculated_ that toxic levels
of mercury in vaccines may be causing autism. That speculation
was very valid science; all good science starts out of
such speculations.

Just because good science starts out of such speculations, that doesn't mean
that all such speculations bear fruit. In this case, there still is no
evidence that vaccines or thimerasol causes autism.

Why wasn't that speculation newsworthy?

Is every speculation newsworthy? I don't think so.

Why are the (false)
refutations newsworthy, then?

What false refuations?

Why is it never newsworthy when
the refutations turn out to be crooked?

Why so many refutations? Why wasn't one enough?

It has not been shown that the refutations are crooked.

cause autism. In this case, the truth wins out.

Jeffie boy,

I see you are being condescending. How nice. The name is "Jeff."

truth does win out, and bad boys do
get taken care of in the end. You don't believe
that now, but you will someday. Everything adds up.
You will too.

Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you
deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence.

All talk. No action. The best you could do is call me "Jeffie."

Jeff

Jeff wrote:

Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you
deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence.

Other threads. Do your own homework and googling.

As for this thread, you said absolutely nothing useful
about the incidence of autism in the Amish community (you
simply made some unbacked assertions about mysterious
"facts" that had nothing to do with Amish,) so I didn't
think you'd want to point any fingers about substance
and content...

Even so, if you post relevent arguments in the relevant
threads, I will take you seriously.

For that matter, if you post any relevant facts about
Amish in this thread, and why the correlation cannot hold,
I will still take you seriously. (Repeating
"it's a fact that there is no relation between Autism
and mercury" dozens of times doesn't make it a
fact in my book. I don't care if you repeat it
100 or 1000 times. It merely marks you out to me as a
rather well-trained parrot. Not someone with an
independent brain, able to think and reason.)

"Jeff" wrote in message
k.net...

"Mark Probert" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote:
"Ilena Rose" wrote in message
...


The Vac Flack Machine, may repeat the same lies over and over again.
That
still doesn't make them true.


True. But the facts are that vaccines have been shown to be safe and
effective in many different studies.

So while the Vac Flack Machine repeats the truth over and over again,
that doesn't make what the Vac Flack Machine say true. Facts are make
what the Vac Flack Machine says true.

Excellent observation. Merely repeating, OR REPOSTING, the same thing
over and over does not make it true, unless there are facts to support
it.

Thanks. But reposting the same thing over and over, even if there are
facts to support it, doesn't make it true.

The facts make it true or false.

In the case of the autism being caused by vaccines, the facts disprove the
hypothesis that autism is caused by vaccines.

Jeff

Some FACTS are ignored.


http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
By ###
Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:


ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032

Jeff wrote:

Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you
deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence.

Perhaps it is unfair to expect everybody to read all kinds
of stuff, so I will just post a link:

http://tinyurl.com/bkf6u

I have not come across any single credible refutation of these
claims, other than quacky stuff like "there is no scientific evidence
whatsover..." which to me is typical PR usage of the word "science"
to make unscientific claims.

As to whether speculations are newsworthy -- all speculations
are clearly not newsworthy. However, if a speculation is
not newsworthy, its numerous refutations should be even less so.

Just ask yourself: Where did you read about the Danish study?
Where did you read about objections to it?

Only someone extremely biased or incomptent will hold on to the
opinion that a speculation and all its supporting evidence are
not at all newsworthy, but all its refutations are.

Anybody else with any reasoning abilities and integrity at all,
will wonder about such a state of affairs.

"LadyLollipop" wrote in message
news:HTwKe.257921$xm3.251433@attbi_s21...
(...)

Some FACTS are ignored.

No, thimerasol is no longer used in vaccines for mice.

Jeff

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:06 +0000, Jeff wrote:


Please provide evidence that the Danish study is crooked.

Jeff

Simple. The Danish study counted autistics before and after 1992 when
thimerosal was removed from the vaccines. When counting the numbers before
1992 the researchers counted only hospitalized patients. But from 1995 on,
they counted everybody. Since only a small fraction of autistics requires
hospitalization (I imagine they must be involved in seriously aggressive
or self-destructive behavior) the result was that the number of
autistics increased after withdrawal of thimerosal. A neat trick, isn't it?
And there are more. See
http://www.safeminds.org/research/do...Pediatrics.pdf

The study has been done by Statens Serum Institut, a vaccine manufacturer.
As it is not a disinterested party this crookery is not surprizing.
When the researcher a) knows which result is desired by employer and
b) wants to keep his job, then he does not even have to be told what to
do. On top of that the employer is free not to publish a study it does not
like. So, the result is predetermined. This is why no research done by a
party interested in a specific outcome can ever be trusted.

"mike" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:06 +0000, Jeff wrote:


Please provide evidence that the Danish study is crooked.

Jeff

Simple. The Danish study counted autistics before and after 1992 when
thimerosal was removed from the vaccines. When counting the numbers before
1992 the researchers counted only hospitalized patients. But from 1995 on,
they counted everybody. Since only a small fraction of autistics requires
hospitalization (I imagine they must be involved in seriously aggressive
or self-destructive behavior) the result was that the number of
autistics increased after withdrawal of thimerosal. A neat trick, isn't
it?
And there are more. See
http://www.safeminds.org/research/do...Pediatrics.pdf

Interesting accusations. Have they backed them up?

The study has been done by Statens Serum Institut, a vaccine manufacturer.
As it is not a disinterested party this crookery is not surprizing.
When the researcher a) knows which result is desired by employer and
b) wants to keep his job, then he does not even have to be told what to
do. On top of that the employer is free not to publish a study it does not
like. So, the result is predetermined. This is why no research done by a
party interested in a specific outcome can ever be trusted.

And safe minds is not a disinterested party.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff wrote:

Nice comeback. Why don't you back your claims with evidence? I see you
deleted that part of the post where I asked for evidence.

Perhaps it is unfair to expect everybody to read all kinds
of stuff, so I will just post a link:

http://tinyurl.com/bkf6u

I have not come across any single credible refutation of these
claims, other than quacky stuff like "there is no scientific evidence
whatsover..." which to me is typical PR usage of the word "science"
to make unscientific claims.

As to whether speculations are newsworthy -- all speculations
are clearly not newsworthy. However, if a speculation is
not newsworthy, its numerous refutations should be even less so.

Just ask yourself: Where did you read about the Danish study?

The journal Pediatrics.

Where did you read about objections to it?

I read objections to the study in sites by people who are against the use of
vaccines or against the use of mercury in vaccines. Hardly disinterested
parties.

Only someone extremely biased or incomptent will hold on to the
opinion that a speculation and all its supporting evidence are
not at all newsworthy, but all its refutations are.

It depends on the evidence.

Anybody else with any reasoning abilities and integrity at all,
will wonder about such a state of affairs.

Sad, isn't it? People who have disabled kids wasting their time looking for
a cause that isn't there.

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote in message
nk.net...

"LadyLollipop" wrote in message
news:HTwKe.257921$xm3.251433@attbi_s21...
(...)

Some FACTS are ignored.

No, thimerasol is no longer used in vaccines for mice.

Jeff

Point made!!!


http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
By ###
Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:


ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032