10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

Larry -

This is the best argument I have seen you write yet, and full of
excellent points. I think this is my favorite:
wrote:
However, regarding
that question, you have to ask WHY are "pro breastfeeding cousellors"
viewed as judgmental. It is because formula feeding is viewed as
normal, and they are trying to convice women to do something abnormal.
If breastfeeding were viewed as the norm, they could simply be viewed
as helpers, rather than police(women).


Bravo!!! I love it!!!

Irene

wrote:


: Larry, maybe you missed this, but a few weeks ago a woman said that she
: was leaving this newsgroup because she couldn't face the reaction she
: knew she'd get if she mentioned that she was now, due to circumstances,
: feeding her nine-month-old breastfed son *some* formula. Previous posts
: on this group had left her feeling this way. That's the effect that
: this sort of attitude has on people. How many other women are there out
: there who leave groups like this or don't join them in the first place,
: precisely because they can't face such attitudes? How helpful are we
: going to be to women and babies if that's the way we come across?

The person you were referring to is Betsy, otherwise knows as oregonchick.
If you will google through the posts including our responses to each
other, I think you will find that 1) I never attacked or belittled her
choices, and 2) there are several occasions where she had thanked me
for my support and helpful advice in her situation I think that belies
your labelling me as an extremist! On the very thread you mentioned,
my advice was to ramp up the formula slowly over the next few months
so she wouldn't have to transition suddenly. Maybe you didn't read my
replies in the thread, or her responses to me. BTW, this is a good
example of a targetted message.

Actually Larry I believe she was talking about me. Betsy has a much
younger daughter. Her issue with group responses she has had here is
the constant questioning on why she is exclusively feed ebm, rather
than nursing. Your principles are laudible Larry and I don't disagree
with them but in practice they are unworkable in the *current* world.
You *cannot* change things overnight. Despite what you think, the
message 'breast is best' *is* working as the attitude towards bf'ing
today is far different from 30 years ago. But it has taken 30 years (or
so) to get this far, and it may take another for bf'ing to be the norm.
Beating women with the 'you are abnormal if you do not bf' stick is not
a vote winner. As Sarah is constantly trying to point out, you will
only end up alienating women who are willing but who need *compassion*
*sympathy* *support* - NOT dogma - which is all you seem to offer. When
I was first having problems I was too scared to post becuase so many
replies to other posts said 'stop doing this' do not do that' 'this is
wrong'. What a woman having problems needs FIRST is compassion and
sympathy - *then* to be *gently* *advised* on the best way to procede.
Carrot, carrot carrot. All I saw was a stick. This group is great
because out of those posts I gleaned practical advise that really did
help, but had I been of the more vulnerable persuasion I probably
wouldn't have been back.

Jeni

On 9 May 2006 wrote:

First, I agree that traditionally, societal perspectives do take a while
to seep in, but I also think that with increased media saturation in our
society, we can get the message out there faster than we have
traditionally. I hope that as the old formula-pushing medical staff
retires (SOON!) women will be less likely to have breastfeeding-ignorant
professionals telling them to formula feed right off the bat. I don't
think it will happen overnight, but I do believe that it'll take far less
than 30 years.

Beating women with the 'you are abnormal if you do not bf' stick is not
a vote winner. As Sarah is constantly trying to point out, you will
only end up alienating women who are willing but who need *compassion*
*sympathy* *support* - NOT dogma - which is all you seem to offer. When
I was first having problems I was too scared to post becuase so many
replies to other posts said 'stop doing this' do not do that' 'this is
wrong'. What a woman having problems needs FIRST is compassion and
sympathy - *then* to be *gently* *advised* on the best way to procede.
Carrot, carrot carrot.


Individually? Yes. Carrots are good. But societally, we need to emphasize
that formula is NOT "good" or "just as good" as breastmilk -- with the
huge upsurge in trying to lower bad fats, trying to improve diets and
eliminate processed crap in kids' food, it must follow that logically, the
chemical soup known as formula is NOT the best -- or even a fine --
choice. It is NOT ideal. In general, PSAs, other media outlets -- movies,
TV, show biz stars -- should be encouraged to promoting breastfeeding
rather than just going with commercial endorsement opportunities known as
formula. In real life, I do talk about breastfeeding as a norm, and when I
see other breastfeeding moms, I offer to get her a beverage while she
boobs. And if someone talks about how some time ago she was told she
"couldn't" breastfeed, I place the blame on her doctor. But the fact is,
information needs to be out there, our medical establishment needs to
regear, and society -- individually and through media -- needs to simply
refocus on how breastfeeding is normal, not chemical soup.

Really, it isn't so much of a carrot/stick approach. When a mom says "it's
time to feed the baby," offer to leave the room to give privacy during
breastfeeding, or offer to get a beverage for mom to replenish foods,
don't look around for a diaper bag, bottle and water for formula. It
isn't so much a matter of "tut tut"ing formula feeders -- because heaven
knows there are plenty women who wanted to breastfeed but who were given
bad advice from their doctors or other trusted medical staff -- but simply
going from the perspective that breastfeeding is the default.

If a new mom mentions any problems or potential roadblocks with
breastfeeding, offer support and intelligent advice. They're already
getting plenty of "helpful" suggestions to just give up on the quick
feeding schedules, let "daddy" do some of the feedings, bottles are "so
convenient" and just go with formula "like everyone does."

T Flynn writes:

: Individually? Yes. Carrots are good. But societally, we need to emphasize
: that formula is NOT "good" or "just as good" as breastmilk -- with the
: huge upsurge in trying to lower bad fats, trying to improve diets and
: eliminate processed crap in kids' food, it must follow that logically, the
: chemical soup known as formula is NOT the best -- or even a fine --
: choice. It is NOT ideal.

Exactly, This is the whole thing about the difference in using general
messages versus targetted messages. You use general media-saturated
messages to *change the norm*. You use targetted messages to offer
compassion and sympathize with those who have difficulty breastfeeding!

Larry

Sue writes:
: "Brookben" wrote in message
: Are you actually implying that stay-at-home moms *don't* work?

: Stay-at-home moms get paid now?? I must have missed the memo on that. Where
: do I sign up.
: --
: Sue (mom to three girls)

Gettin paid is NOT a requirement for working. Only in the commercial
environment. You belittle everyone who isn't in the commerical
environment with that comment!

Larry

wrote:

And I will again point out...
1. To get "breastfeding more into the mainstream as the accepted norm,
it MUST be treated as the norm, not as something above the norm.
Consequently, formula feeding MUST be viewed as something LESS
than the norm. It won't work otherwise!

To get breastfeeding more into the mainstream -- allow me to emphasize
that I mean *in America* -- women need to get better maternity leaves.
The reason formula feeding is so prevalent has much to do with the
pitiful leaves women are provided. Forget polarizing the formula versus
breast crowd. Everyone needs to pull together to get new moms some
half-decent paid leave so they can be home to get BF established. The
you can worry about the public health message. American politicians
pull out the "family values" rhetoric at every opportunity. Family
values my ass. You need to get some action from those people.

You can advertise the perils of formula and the advantage of breast all
you want but if a mom has to go back to work after 6 weeks the odds are
firmly stacked against a long term BF relationship.

I'll bet you'd see your BF numbers rise then.

Elle
A Canadian mom

wrote:
Sue writes:
: "Brookben" wrote in message
: Are you actually implying that stay-at-home moms *don't* work?

: Stay-at-home moms get paid now?? I must have missed the memo on that. Where
: do I sign up.
: --
: Sue (mom to three girls)

Gettin paid is NOT a requirement for working. Only in the commercial
environment. You belittle everyone who isn't in the commerical
environment with that comment!

Larry

To bring this back to the original context, *I'd* suggested that
Brookben's comments regarding breastfeeding did not address the
majority of American moms with children 1 yo who were in the
workforce, and that it seemed (to me) to imply that if you couldn't
make bf work, you were putting your needs above those of your child --
disregarding standard issue bf issues, like finding a place and time to
pump, and pump resistance.

I'm no longer in the paid workforce, and didn't feel belittled by Sue's
comment. I'd like, frankly, to sidestep the whole WOH/SAH thing, except
to say that it's a lot trickier to make bf work when you're WOH, mainly
because you're more likely to have an easier time of it finding a time
and place to pump. And to say that most American moms with children
1yo WOH, or at least are counted in the paid workforce (i.e.
accumulating social security earnings).

Caledonia

Notchalk wrote:

I have women come in to hospital to have their baby, and say, "I don't
want to breastfeed when I get home but I want the baby to have the
colostrum." ... and then there are the midwives who say, "Oh, why
bother stimulating your milk if it's just for the colostrum?" Makes me
so mad. What if they have a really easy time of it in the first 3 days
and decide to keep at it?

Do you ask them why they don't intend to breastfeed?

Elle

On 2006-05-10 10:20:06 +0800, said:

Notchalk wrote:

I have women come in to hospital to have their baby, and say, "I don't
want to breastfeed when I get home but I want the baby to have the
colostrum." ... and then there are the midwives who say, "Oh, why
bother stimulating your milk if it's just for the colostrum?" Makes me
so mad. What if they have a really easy time of it in the first 3 days
and decide to keep at it?

Do you ask them why they don't intend to breastfeed?

Elle

It's not up to me, but I'm sure in the antenatal clinic they do. Often
they just say 'it's just easier with bottles' when they have other
kids, and already have to make up bottles, etc. Honestly I can't be
bothered with finding out reasons why, then having to hold my tongue
when they give me some misinformation as to why, etc. By the time they
get to me, they have well and truly made up their mind. They don't
want to be harrassed for their decision. That's not to say I wouldn't
love to know how they came to their conclusion!

Jo
--
Woman, Wife, Mother, Midwife

To bring this back to the original context, *I'd* suggested that
Brookben's comments regarding breastfeeding did not address the
majority of American moms with children 1 yo who were in the
workforce, and that it seemed (to me) to imply that if you couldn't
make bf work, you were putting your needs above those of your child --
disregarding standard issue bf issues, like finding a place and time to

pump, and pump resistance.

I stand by what I said: Does it not bother anyone that the babies lose
when, as a society, we
devalue their preferences? Why not have much better maternity leave? 6
weeks is a joke; it's laughable. Yet, WOHM does not explain away the
fact that 100% of perfectly able babies/mothers are not breastfeeding
for 6 to 8 weeks. I guess the question could be turned to: why?

I just have to go back to formula marketing having a huge impact on
this phenomenon. They make it seem so easy with their sleek pictures,
ultra tidy house, free single serving samples in the mail, etc. It's
not right that they don't have to present a true, factual
representation of their product. That they don't have to asterisk the
ingredients to say that the canisters' contents vary wildly... I am
idealistic - I know that - in that I believe that if a woman really
knew the dangers of formula (not just the benefits of breastfeeding),
that it wouldn't be such an easy choice. Why not tell both sides?

I think Larry is on to something when he mentioned that formula should
be prescription only.