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#11
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Another homework responsibility question
"beeswing" wrote:
I wrote: In short, we have a letter into her teacher/advisor to meet with her to discuss what our alternatives are and what suggestions she might have to offer. To follow up my followup, the teacher wrote back and it was clear that she just thought my daughter needed organizational skills and a bigger carrot. She totally missed the boat. My daughter isn't undermotivated, she's overwhelmed to a point she can't function. I see a conference on the horizon, and it may not be a comfortable one. Again...any ideas? Thanks. I would suggest that your daughter DOES need organizational skills as she hasn't got her homework from the previous week done, even if she wants to do well and doesn't need the bigger carrot. So I would do two things. 1) I would sit down with your daughter and ask her to break up the homework tasks that she has into manageable units. That will deal with the organizational skills. Have her do it though, or at least have her buy in. 2) If I could, I would ask the teacher to tell you/her what the grading parameters are for the various long term projects, especially what the minimum acceptable for passing is, and what is 'extra credit'. (For instance if I gave along term project where writing was involved, I had definite levels that a student had to reach for each grade - say a minimum of 10 paragraphs for a C) I would explain to her about your 'dear in the headlights' g daughter and say that the carrot she needs to have less the pressure. (In my ds's senior year of HS I called each teacher individually and said 'what does he have to do to pass', and then stood over him until he did that.) Then after you've got some idea of the minimums and maximums, then sit down again with your daughter, and have her re-schedule so that she gets at least the minimum done every day. After she's done that, she can work on getting a better grade for the various things. grandma Rosalie |
#12
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Another homework responsibility question
Rosalie B. wrote: I would suggest that your daughter DOES need organizational skills as she hasn't got her homework from the previous week done, even if she wants to do well and doesn't need the bigger carrot. So I would do two things. 1) I would sit down with your daughter and ask her to break up the homework tasks that she has into manageable units. That will deal with the organizational skills. Have her do it though, or at least have her buy in. Yes, the teacher already asked us to do that and we will. I didn't mean to imply that my daughter doesn't need organizational help at all, only that at this point, organizational help alone is not going to be enough to pull her out of the morass she's in. If she's too frozen to complete one writing assignment over three days, even though she's spending hours over it, us sitting down with her to tell her she has to complete one to two assignments a night will only increase the pressure. 2) If I could, I would ask the teacher to tell you/her what the grading parameters are for the various long term projects, especially what the minimum acceptable for passing is, and what is 'extra credit'. (For instance if I gave along term project where writing was involved, I had definite levels that a student had to reach for each grade - say a minimum of 10 paragraphs for a C) My husband is planning on asking the teacher just that when we meet with her. Unfortunately, we're going to get resistance from our perfectionist daughter when we suggest doing less than optimal work just to get the assignment completed. (I've tried that in the past.) On the other hand, less-than-optimal work still scores more than a zero, which is what she's currently getting on these assignments. Maybe the teacher can help us with getting our daughter to accept this. I would explain to her about your 'dear in the headlights' g daughter and say that the carrot she needs to have less the pressure. (In my ds's senior year of HS I called each teacher individually and said 'what does he have to do to pass', and then stood over him until he did that.) Then after you've got some idea of the minimums and maximums, then sit down again with your daughter, and have her re-schedule so that she gets at least the minimum done every day. After she's done that, she can work on getting a better grade for the various things. It's a great idea. I just don't know how easily my daughter can adjust to thinking on that level. Part of the reason she's so frozen is that she gets paralytic over not knowing how to do things "right." This is particularly a problem with her writing and always has been. If she can just get unfrozen and *START*, she usually does quite well. You've got some great thoughts on this. I think these are all things we need to discuss with her teacher. Thanks for sharing. beeswing |
#13
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Another homework responsibility question
In article .com, beeswing
says... My daughter really wants to succeed at her new school, but the pressure to want to do so is making things even worse for her. She told me she was waking up at 3 a.m. (I assume from the stress.) Has anyone here had a kid who had to negotiate through this kind of transition? How did you (and your kid) handle it? Do you have any suggestions of alternatives I might want to discuss or approaches I might take with the teacher? They really *do* have a lot of homework at this school, even if my kid wasn't currently frozen like a dear in the headlights at this point. Sounds like she's a bit like I was with homework - perfectionistic, but procrastinated, so by time I'd get around to the homework, I'd be so demoralized by the fact that I didn't have the time to do it well that I'd freeze up and it would be a disaster. Fifth grade IMO and IME is a little young to really plan a week's work well. Many adults don't plan a week's work well! The suggestions you've received so far have been to either have her put in x amount of time at homework a day, or just let her alone and let her learn from consequences. I don't think x amount of time a day works well (easy to fritter it away if you're a procrastinator), and, although it was certainly worth trying to let her have full responsibility for awhile and see what happens, that hasnt' worked. So, just going to what I do personally to mitigate my own tendencies, I'd work up a task/goal-oriented (as opposed to study time-oriented) schedule with her. Usually there are specific weekly tasks at that level. So, work up with her, for example, Monday: language spelling initial word study write 3x, quick draft outline for composition, 1st math worksheet. Tuesday: language spelling word sentences, geography and science reading and questions, piano lesson Wednesday: language spelling word alphabetization, 2nd math worksheet, review composition that was drawn up on Monday outline and do a 1st draft. And so on. With a little structure imposed according to task, her tendancies to procrastination will be addressed. It's skill good for life. My son's school is pretty good about having the kids keep a planner to record homework assignmetns and projects and pacing them out. But I've still intervened a bit with my son to add more structure at home from time to time. I'd get mixed messages from his school. I'd be notified that he had one or two un-turned in homework assignments. On discussion the teachers would tell me that it's *his* responsibility and I shouldn't be directing him. So I'd wonder what exactly is meant "OK - so there's a problem, dont' do anything about it? Or, there's a problem, add some extra consequence over his head about it, but still tell him its' up to him how to do it? There's a problem, but whatever you do don't start doing it for him? Or what?" Usually the responses are vague. So I simply decided that sometimes he needs a little more structure laid out for him to assure he'd get certain things done. Banty |
#14
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Another homework responsibility question
"beeswing" wrote in message oups.com... I wrote: In short, we have a letter into her teacher/advisor to meet with her to discuss what our alternatives are and what suggestions she might have to offer. To follow up my followup, the teacher wrote back and it was clear that she just thought my daughter needed organizational skills and a bigger carrot. She totally missed the boat. My daughter isn't undermotivated, she's overwhelmed to a point she can't function. I see a conference on the horizon, and it may not be a comfortable one. Again...any ideas? Thanks. I'm not sure this answers the question, but, it sounds like she got a bit behind because you didn' t do her scheduling for her for a week. So if she's only half a week behind, and you want to take over scheduling and organization for her again, you can get her caught up next week over the holiday. (I'm assuming you live in the US, otherwise you'll need to catch up some on each weekend.) I can't remember how old this child is, is there a "homework club" at her school. The junior high's around her have a homework club that helps kids learn to organize. It's mandatory for those not doing well in school, and open to anyone else that would like some help learning to organize their homework time. There are also private tutoring organization that teach this type of stuff. If you are saying she is organized, and it's just too much work you need to get her out of that program into one she can succeed at. |
#15
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Another homework responsibility question
beeswing wrote:
I wrote: In short, we have a letter into her teacher/advisor to meet with her to discuss what our alternatives are and what suggestions she might have to offer. To follow up my followup, the teacher wrote back and it was clear that she just thought my daughter needed organizational skills and a bigger carrot. She totally missed the boat. My daughter isn't undermotivated, she's overwhelmed to a point she can't function. I see a conference on the horizon, and it may not be a comfortable one. Again...any ideas? Thanks. Better organizational skills should allow your daughter to break up her work into less intimidating chunks, however. I don't think the teacher missed the boat -- maybe you're just sailing parallel paths rather than paths intersecting at a common point. I think a point to discuss with the teacher is how to teach your daughter to divide tasks (maybe repeatedly) until each individual task that comprises the whole is not so overwhelming. If this were my DD, I might also ask her if the things she was spending most of the time on (in DD's case, this would be, oh, the cover page of the report) are vital to finishing. In other words, finish the most important stuff first, then the slightly less important, etc. That way if you run out of time, you can still hand something in. Scott DD 12 and DS 9 |
#16
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Another homework responsibility question
Scott wrote: Better organizational skills should allow your daughter to break up her work into less intimidating chunks, however. I don't think the teacher missed the boat -- maybe you're just sailing parallel paths rather than paths intersecting at a common point. She missed the boat when she said that she thought we could get my daughter to motivate herself by using rewards such as computer time, TV, and ice cream. My daughter wants to do well -- that's her main motivation. The main thing that froze her on the assignment she's working on is writer's block. Carrots won't solve that. I don't think. And neither will added pressure. I think a point to discuss with the teacher is how to teach your daughter to divide tasks (maybe repeatedly) until each individual task that comprises the whole is not so overwhelming. To her credit, the teacher sent us an email that gave us some ideas very similar to what you wrote above. If this were my DD, I might also ask her if the things she was spending most of the time on (in DD's case, this would be, oh, the cover page of the report) are vital to finishing. In other words, finish the most important stuff first, then the slightly less important, etc. That way if you run out of time, you can still hand something in. What if the hard part is getting words on the page? Would you recommend setting that assignment aside and working on something else? The Kid has been stuck on writing the same thing for three days now...precluding getting any other homework done. On the other hand, apparently this written assignment is the one the teacher wants first. According to my kid. Then again, what The Kid says needs to be taken with a huge grain of sand. On yet another hand...it *was* due last week. Scott DD 12 and DS 9 Thanks, Scott. I appreciate your insight. Have you ever dealt w/the writer's block issue with your kids? How did you handle it? beeswing |
#17
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Another homework responsibility question
Cathy Kearns wrote: I'm not sure this answers the question, but, it sounds like she got a bit behind because you didn' t do her scheduling for her for a week. I've never done her scheduling for her. What I did stop was badgering her to death to do her homework at a certain time because all it was doing was creating animosity. So if she's only half a week behind, and you want to take over scheduling and organization for her again, you can get her caught up next week over the holiday. (I'm assuming you live in the US, otherwise you'll need to catch up some on each weekend.) The teacher seemed to think we could get it all done by Wednesday before the holiday. I don't think that's practicable. I can't remember how old this child is, is there a "homework club" at her school. She's in 5th grade, but it's the first year of her middle school. The junior high's around her have a homework club that helps kids learn to organize. It's mandatory for those not doing well in school, and open to anyone else that would like some help learning to organize their homework time. There are also private tutoring organization that teach this type of stuff. There's no private tutoring, but there is homework club. We found out The Kid had been telling the teachers she was done w/her homework and reading instead. Now that we know about it, we've put a kibosh on that, so she should be doing homework during homework club (and was today). So that will help. If you are saying she is organized, and it's just too much work you need to get her out of that program into one she can succeed at. Nope, she needs to learn to organize, too. But she also needs to learn not to freak out at challenge. She's not in a *program* -- she just started middle school and these are the expectations that this school has. I think my kid will adjust, but will need some support in the process. Thanks for writing! beeswing |
#18
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Another homework responsibility question
Banty wrote:
Sounds like she's a bit like I was with homework - perfectionistic, but procrastinated, so by time I'd get around to the homework, I'd be so demoralized by the fact that I didn't have the time to do it well that I'd freeze up and it would be a disaster. Have you ever done the "I'll put it off to the last minute, so then no one (especially myself) can expect me to do it perfectly...I can only expect myself to do as well as I can do in that amount of time" trick? (No, that's not my daughter...that's me, really....though I've seen that same tendency in her as well. Genetics? ) Fifth grade IMO and IME is a little young to really plan a week's work well. Many adults don't plan a week's work well! I think the school is just starting to get the kids trained. To its credit, it does give the kids calendars to map out their assignments...I found out today...so my kid should prolly start filling that out. If she'd do it (and we should prolly help her map it out), I can see how it might help. We're all learning the new school's system here, parents and kid. The suggestions you've received so far have been to either have her put in x amount of time at homework a day, or just let her alone and let her learn from consequences. I don't think x amount of time a day works well (easy to fritter it away if you're a procrastinator), and, although it was certainly worth trying to let her have full responsibility for awhile and see what happens, that hasnt' worked. So, just going to what I do personally to mitigate my own tendencies, I'd work up a task/goal-oriented (as opposed to study time-oriented) schedule with her. Usually there are specific weekly tasks at that level. So, work up with her, for example, Monday: language spelling initial word study write 3x, quick draft outline for composition, 1st math worksheet. Tuesday: language spelling word sentences, geography and science reading and questions, piano lesson Wednesday: language spelling word alphabetization, 2nd math worksheet, review composition that was drawn up on Monday outline and do a 1st draft. And so on. I agree. We should start using the scheduling calendar to schedule, now that I know it exists...or at least try it. I was mostly pushing her, up till now, to "spend an hour a night and/or complete an assignment" a night. Now she's far enough behind that that's not looking like it will be enough. Perhaps if she can look ahead and see how it all lays out she'll be a little less anxious. With a little structure imposed according to task, her tendancies to procrastination will be addressed. It's skill good for life. Yeah, I can relate. Left to my own devices, I'm a procrastinator. But I'm not much of one at work. One comment though. It's not all procrastination. Some of it is genuine "I'm scared I'm not going to succeed so I'm freezing." My son's school is pretty good about having the kids keep a planner to record homework assignmetns and projects and pacing them out. But I've still intervened a bit with my son to add more structure at home from time to time. I'd get mixed messages from his school. I'd be notified that he had one or two un-turned in homework assignments. On discussion the teachers would tell me that it's *his* responsibility and I shouldn't be directing him. So I'd wonder what exactly is meant "OK - so there's a problem, dont' do anything about it? Or, there's a problem, add some extra consequence over his head about it, but still tell him its' up to him how to do it? There's a problem, but whatever you do don't start doing it for him? Or what?" Usually the responses are vague. So I simply decided that sometimes he needs a little more structure laid out for him to assure he'd get certain things done. Yeah, even here. My daughter has two teachers, one who acts as her advisor and one who doesn't. The advisor one wrote us back and issued rather ridged marching orders -- and suggested all of this stuff, last weeks, this weeks, could be done by next Wednesday. The nonadvisor one said focus on this weeks work and have catch up on the older work as she can, maybe over Thanksgiving. And my daughter claimed her advisor teacher told her to do one assignment a night and not to overwork (which doesn't mesh with what she told us and I take with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Everest). And on top of that -- I'm not quite sure what responsibility my husband and I have regarding finishing the homework beyond making time and resources available and being available to help. No matter what, more structure would help, and we'll work on it. And we'll meet with the teachers, I hope next Wednesday, to figure out what's *really* expected and what's to be done about the situation -- and in what priority. Thanks, Banty. It sounds like you know where we're coming from, and that in it's own way is very comforting. beeswing |
#19
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Another homework responsibility question
"beeswing" wrote in message
ups.com... What if the hard part is getting words on the page? Then I'd recommend the technique of free writing. -- Warm Regards, Claire Petersky Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/ See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky |
#20
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Another homework responsibility question
In article .com, beeswing
says... Banty wrote: Sounds like she's a bit like I was with homework - perfectionistic, but procrastinated, so by time I'd get around to the homework, I'd be so demoralized by the fact that I didn't have the time to do it well that I'd freeze up and it would be a disaster. Have you ever done the "I'll put it off to the last minute, so then no one (especially myself) can expect me to do it perfectly...I can only expect myself to do as well as I can do in that amount of time" trick? (No, that's not my daughter...that's me, really....though I've seen that same tendency in her as well. Genetics? ) I've had that suggested, but it's really not it. It *kills* me not to do something the way I think is best; I'm not looking for an out. It's more of a matter of having trouble starting something, and some attention problems. So I have to do things like, leave a simple part of a complex task for the next day, so the next day I can more easily start on that, then have momentum for further in the task. I work better without breaks - someone else is refreshed after a coffee break; after the same break I'm struggling with getting it together and started again and a half hour after the break is over I'm still not on task. I get derailed. So I put together big blocks of time for work. For long tasks, I write out a schedule to reinforce the need to pace the task. I got into some terrible fixes due to procrastination in the last couple of years in high school. I had to work on this and come up with compensations. Fifth grade IMO and IME is a little young to really plan a week's work well. Many adults don't plan a week's work well! I think the school is just starting to get the kids trained. To its credit, it does give the kids calendars to map out their assignments...I found out today...so my kid should prolly start filling that out. If she'd do it (and we should prolly help her map it out), I can see how it might help. We're all learning the new school's system here, parents and kid. I notice just about everyone responded with how she needs to schedule or pace the work, and divide it into smaller tasks. The suggestions you've received so far have been to either have her put in x amount of time at homework a day, or just let her alone and let her learn from consequences. I don't think x amount of time a day works well (easy to fritter it away if you're a procrastinator), and, although it was certainly worth trying to let her have full responsibility for awhile and see what happens, that hasnt' worked. So, just going to what I do personally to mitigate my own tendencies, I'd work up a task/goal-oriented (as opposed to study time-oriented) schedule with her. Usually there are specific weekly tasks at that level. So, work up with her, for example, Monday: language spelling initial word study write 3x, quick draft outline for composition, 1st math worksheet. Tuesday: language spelling word sentences, geography and science reading and questions, piano lesson Wednesday: language spelling word alphabetization, 2nd math worksheet, review composition that was drawn up on Monday outline and do a 1st draft. And so on. I agree. We should start using the scheduling calendar to schedule, now that I know it exists...or at least try it. I was mostly pushing her, up till now, to "spend an hour a night and/or complete an assignment" a night. Now she's far enough behind that that's not looking like it will be enough. Perhaps if she can look ahead and see how it all lays out she'll be a little less anxious. Yes. Seeing a plan gives a feeling of control, not being overwhelmed. Practice getting started and following through on the plans reinforce the success of the planning. With a little structure imposed according to task, her tendancies to procrastination will be addressed. It's skill good for life. Yeah, I can relate. Left to my own devices, I'm a procrastinator. But I'm not much of one at work. One comment though. It's not all procrastination. Some of it is genuine "I'm scared I'm not going to succeed so I'm freezing." Sometimes it helps to do *some* work on a challenging or daunting task, like jotting down some thoughts or a quick outline. Then moving to something simpler, even if it's not due the next day, just to get the momentum going and have some sense of satisfaction. Then to back to the more daunting task. If she's been working on only one assignment for three days, she's lost momentum and has no feeling of satisfaction, and worries as the deadline looms bigger and bigger. It snowballs. So she needs to bust that up. As for writing, when I am inspired and/or really interested in the topic, I can write a draft beginning to end in one go and after a couple of revisions it's a good product. If I'm *not* inspired, or I'm stressed or tired, then I need to do something mechanical to get the process going or I'm stuck, too. This is where I'll try to lay out an outline, and if failing that, write down some points, arrange them, develop them into an outline, and fill in from there. It's not as much fun, but it gets the task going and give me a path, and allows me to put one foot in front of the other until the thing is written. A psychological trick I do on myself if I'm bogged down or having trouble getting things started is to put a recent sucessful completed project on my desk, even read it again. Just to get myself into the groove and remind myself that I can proceed successfully with the current task. My son's school is pretty good about having the kids keep a planner to record homework assignmetns and projects and pacing them out. But I've still intervened a bit with my son to add more structure at home from time to time. I'd get mixed messages from his school. I'd be notified that he had one or two un-turned in homework assignments. On discussion the teachers would tell me that it's *his* responsibility and I shouldn't be directing him. So I'd wonder what exactly is meant "OK - so there's a problem, dont' do anything about it? Or, there's a problem, add some extra consequence over his head about it, but still tell him its' up to him how to do it? There's a problem, but whatever you do don't start doing it for him? Or what?" Usually the responses are vague. So I simply decided that sometimes he needs a little more structure laid out for him to assure he'd get certain things done. Yeah, even here. My daughter has two teachers, one who acts as her advisor and one who doesn't. The advisor one wrote us back and issued rather ridged marching orders -- and suggested all of this stuff, last weeks, this weeks, could be done by next Wednesday. The nonadvisor one said focus on this weeks work and have catch up on the older work as she can, maybe over Thanksgiving. And my daughter claimed her advisor teacher told her to do one assignment a night and not to overwork (which doesn't mesh with what she told us and I take with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Everest). And on top of that -- I'm not quite sure what responsibility my husband and I have regarding finishing the homework beyond making time and resources available and being available to help. From here, I'd recommend jumping back on track week to week, and do the catch up over Thanksgiving. Sucks to impact a holiday like that, but sucks worse to be playing catch up over weeks. Good luck however you decide to proceed. Banty |
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