How to break 4 year old from shyness?

"Banty" wrote in message
...
Shyness reported in children is usually a tempramental thing.
Setting aside
the child that's "afraid but wants to", but I do think that's not
usually the
case - it's a child either introverted by nature and overwhelmed, or
a child
that simply needs to grow and develop more. It's the *parents'*
fears that
their little darling won't get along fluidly with other people
that's usually
the fear involved. And oftentimes because the child has inherited
the parent's
temprament and they remember people's expectations overwhelming
*them*.

Why do you have such a low opinion of parents? Why do you think that
parents are insensitive to the needs of their children? And why do
you want to set aside the child who is "afraid but wants to?" Do you
really think they're that rare?

Likewise, a child that doesn't socialize probably needs to learn
manners and
sharing and encouraged to get along fluidly with siblings and
neighbors he or
she sees often, but a nervous parent will invite ALL the kids in the
Kindy
class, remembering how it hurt to be on the wrong end of a group of
abusive
popular girls.

Where is this coming from? We've been talking specifically about
having one or two kids over to help your child ease into friendships
in a less chaotic environment. It's a big leap from that to inviting
the whole kindy class over (even one at a time).

The likely problem with the OP's child is that she's either not
suited or not
ready for a big class full of kids running around screaming.

I agree.

So, not liking that, will make her a lonely maladjusted child?

No. But helping to establish one or two friendships might make that
big class full of kids a little less scary.

My mother was concerned about me, because in those days ('60s) there
was a lot
of emphasis on popularity and having kids be "well adjusted", and a
lot was
still to be learned about inherited tempraments. But it was most
definitely not
[snip]
My only real problem was that I am introverted and independant by
nature, and
was simply not going to turn into Miss Texas 1972 ;-)

Okay, so *this* is where all this is coming from. Well I, for one,
have no desire to force, push, or even encourage my child to be
"popular." That isn't at all what I've been talking about.

But - what exactly are they to develop towards? To find a mate and
hold a job?
Join the PTA? Any two but not all three necessarily?

What one does with their life -- whether they choose to get married or
have kids, or where they work -- is completely their choice. I just
want to do what I can for my kids to make sure that it *is* a choice,
and not a lifestyle they've fallen into because they don't know how to
cope with the world at large.

Bizby

In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
Shyness reported in children is usually a tempramental thing.
Setting aside
the child that's "afraid but wants to", but I do think that's not
usually the
case - it's a child either introverted by nature and overwhelmed, or
a child
that simply needs to grow and develop more. It's the *parents'*
fears that
their little darling won't get along fluidly with other people
that's usually
the fear involved. And oftentimes because the child has inherited
the parent's
temprament and they remember people's expectations overwhelming
*them*.

Why do you have such a low opinion of parents? Why do you think that
parents are insensitive to the needs of their children? And why do
you want to set aside the child who is "afraid but wants to?" Do you
really think they're that rare?

Well, I can rather uselessly shoot back "why do you have such a high opinion of
parents - why do you think parents are always perfectly tuned in and accepting
of their kids"!

But I won't.

OF COURSE I'm not saying all parents. Indeed, I've pretty much stated that when
this happens, it's well-intended. But people do feel social pressure to fit in
slot B, and hope their kids will come out being tab B so that they'll have an
easier time of it getting into slot B.

Not everyone has insight into what's inborn temprament and what needs to be
developed.



Likewise, a child that doesn't socialize probably needs to learn
manners and
sharing and encouraged to get along fluidly with siblings and
neighbors he or
she sees often, but a nervous parent will invite ALL the kids in the
Kindy
class, remembering how it hurt to be on the wrong end of a group of
abusive
popular girls.

Where is this coming from? We've been talking specifically about
having one or two kids over to help your child ease into friendships
in a less chaotic environment. It's a big leap from that to inviting
the whole kindy class over (even one at a time).

And I'm talking about how "shy" kids, who have nothing whatsoever wrong with
them, get labelled "shy", so get targetted for all kinds of efforts to un-shy
them. How this *specifically* relates to the O.P. is up to interpretation,
since he didn't stick around. But there's no rule that we have to only talk
about only the O.P. and only what Catherine suggested (especially since a) we
read her differently and b) I look to others for more useful input to begin
with).



The likely problem with the OP's child is that she's either not
suited or not
ready for a big class full of kids running around screaming.

I agree.

So, not liking that, will make her a lonely maladjusted child?

No. But helping to establish one or two friendships might make that
big class full of kids a little less scary.

My point is that I'm not sure she needs all that effort.


My mother was concerned about me, because in those days ('60s) there
was a lot
of emphasis on popularity and having kids be "well adjusted", and a
lot was
still to be learned about inherited tempraments. But it was most
definitely not
[snip]
My only real problem was that I am introverted and independant by
nature, and
was simply not going to turn into Miss Texas 1972 ;-)

Okay, so *this* is where all this is coming from. Well I, for one,
have no desire to force, push, or even encourage my child to be
"popular." That isn't at all what I've been talking about.

Nor did I consider the O.P's case in terms of some requirement to be popular
either! I went into some background. That's it. That's all. Sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar.


But - what exactly are they to develop towards? To find a mate and
hold a job?
Join the PTA? Any two but not all three necessarily?

What one does with their life -- whether they choose to get married or
have kids, or where they work -- is completely their choice. I just
want to do what I can for my kids to make sure that it *is* a choice,
and not a lifestyle they've fallen into because they don't know how to
cope with the world at large.


These choices are often made based on what one needs. Indeed, sometimes the
biggest hassle is people wanting to ease your way into the "right' choices.

Banty

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here.

I grew up as a very shy child, and turned into a shy adult. I had a
*few* friends at school, but none that I "hung out with" after/away
from school.
I had friends at my job, people I would talk to, joke around with, etc,
but I never spent time with them away from work. When these people
moved on from the job (quit, got fired, whatever) I didn't keep in
contact with them, nor felt the need to.
Now that I'm a SAHM, I only have one person that might be referred to
as a friend, who is the wife of an employee of my husband (my husband
runs his own construction crew), but I don't feel the need to seek out
her company, and many times, I wish she wouldn't keep coming over to my
house, because she isn't really what I would consider a friend.
I have never minded being shy, and I don't feel the need to have a lot
of friends. (I'm not counting my family, of course) At large gatherings
I tend to sit by myself and not interact much with everyone there.

Friends are what I would consider to be someone who I would trust with
intimate details of my life, someone to just sit and talk to, whatever.
I don't feel the need for that, because my best friend is my husband.

I don't feel like I'm to be pitied for my lack of socializing skills. I
don't have a problem being this way.

Even in one-on-one situations I find it hard to come up with something
to talk about, just for conversations sake. If the other person is an
extrovert, we can usually talk without problems, but if they are
relying on me to get the ball rolling, then it will just sit there.

Anyway... what I'm getting at is that being shy isn't necessarily a
"bad" thing. Teach the child some conversational habits, maybe even
hold conversations with her yourself, and let the rest happen
naturally.

She'll either grow out of it (like my twin sister did) or learn to
enjoy it (like I did).

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40
says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
Shyness reported in children is usually a tempramental thing.
Setting aside
the child that's "afraid but wants to", but I do think that's not
usually the
case - it's a child either introverted by nature and overwhelmed, or
a child
that simply needs to grow and develop more. It's the *parents'*
fears that
their little darling won't get along fluidly with other people
that's usually
the fear involved. And oftentimes because the child has inherited
the parent's
temprament and they remember people's expectations overwhelming
*them*.

Why do you have such a low opinion of parents? Why do you think that
parents are insensitive to the needs of their children? And why do
you want to set aside the child who is "afraid but wants to?" Do you
really think they're that rare?

Well, I can rather uselessly shoot back "why do you have such a high
opinion of
parents - why do you think parents are always perfectly tuned in and
accepting
of their kids"!

I agree. Parents are not always perfectly tuned in and accepting of their
kids. Indeed, my mom thinks because she's my mom, she knows me better than
I know myself. If she says I feel cold and I say I feel hot, she says I'm
wrong, she is the mom and she knows I feel cold. Yes, this actually
happened when I was 30+ years old. There is no way to get it in her head
how I actually feel about anything, because she is the mom and she knows
already.

"hedgehog42" wrote in message
ups.com...


While the
size and shape of support system will vary according to personal
preference, I think our species is social enough that very few of us
would be happy as clams living isolated in the wilderness. (Even the
voyageurs returned regularly to civilization!)


Yeah. Apparently hermits often go crazy because of lack of company. It's
just part of being human. But it also doesn't have to mean heaps of people
and parties all the time.

Jen

"sscreen" wrote in message
oups.com...
Anyway... what I'm getting at is that being shy isn't necessarily a
"bad" thing. Teach the child some conversational habits, maybe even
hold conversations with her yourself, and let the rest happen
naturally.

What you don't seem to get is that there is a difference between shy
and introverted. My husband is introverted. He gets along well with
most people and isn't intimidated by anybody, but he doesn't feel the
need to seek out company. He is, as they explain in Meyers-Briggs,
energized by his time alone. Socializing is tiring for him and if he
has too many social obligations, he gets very unhappy.

I am shy. I am *also* somewhat of an introvert, but I test at the
mid-range between introverted and extroverted in the M-B tests. But
shyness does not mean "prefers to be alone," shyness involves actually
being scared of or intimidated by others. And so shyness *is*
necessarily a bad thing -- or at least an unfortunate one for the
person involved.

A shy child may never grow up to lose all their inhibitions, but they
can be taught confidence to some extent through positive interactions.
As parents, we can make a mistake either way -- by pushing a shy or
introverted child into situations they don't want or aren't ready for,
OR by failing to help a child who really wants and needs the help.

I would say that if a parent of a young child is worried that their
child is unable to make friends, that encouraging a friendship or two
is a good thing. If the child doesn't react well, then it's time to
re-evaluate.

Bizby

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40
says...
How do I know? He's a teen, he's certainly isn't going to tell
adults
if he's lonely or not. I do know that my sister (his mom) was
worried, so she may have picked up on something. But to be honest,
I
just can't imagine even the most introverted person being happy with
*no* friends and *no* connections to anyone. He does seem to enjoy
being with family, and spending time with his cousins. He doesn't
hide in his room when we come over. Like I said, I'm hopeful that
it
will work out -- that some sweet girl will take an interest in him
and
pull him out of his shell a little bit. I don't think he's doomed
to
a life alone at this point, but I do think it might have been easier
on him if he'd learned some social skills earlier in life.


So, no social skills are applied in getting along with his cousins
and family??

Sure they are. And he's a sweet guy. He's definitely able to get
along with people -- classmates, co-workers, etc. That's why I remain
pretty optimistic for him despite his track
record so far.

There may be a bigger issue here. Apparently to me, it's not that
he doesn't
have friends - it's that he doesn't have the kind of friend he runs
around with
outside the home! Is that a good thing or a bad thing really?

I'm not sure what you mean here. He rarely sees any cousins or other
family, so the vast majority of the time, he's with his parents and
younger brother. The two brothers don't really "hang out" much. They
tend to fight a lot, so they avoid each other mostly.

You didn't describe a withdrawn kid here.
Just one not doing the hangin' out teen thang.

I brought him up as an example of how kids don't necessarily just
"grow out of it." I don't know his situation intimately enough to be
able to say with confidence how happy he is, or how much choice he has
in the matter of whether or not he does the hangin' out teen thang. I
do know that my sister became more worried as he grew, because he was
exhibiting some behaviors that seemed to indicate shyness. For
example, they would be out and run into a boy from Boy Scouts --
someone he seemed to like well enough at the meetings -- the other boy
would say Hi, and my nephew would pretend not to see or hear him, and
would turn away. This kind of behavior isn't acceptable. He doesn't
have to chat up a storm, but he does need to at least acknowledge the
greeting. My sister asked, "Why would he do that?" I understand
completely, because even as an adult, I fight the same impulses
myself. I won't pretend not to hear someone that has actually said
hello, but if I see someone before they see me, I might very well dash
down the next aisle. It's hard to explain why, but it's like if I go
to the meeting, I'm prepared for the people I see there. If I run
into them unexpectedly, I'm not prepared, and it's scary for me.

And if you view that as a problem for him, I wonder why it isn't a
problem for
the family. (Probably it isn't, but still....) If you nonetheless
view it as a
problem, then perhaps you should be considering how the family can
mitigate
their habits of only socializing with relatives, and no one with
kids their
kids' ages. That should help eveyone in your view - right?

It's true that the family has rather a rather limited social circle.
The are good friends with the family next door, who does have a
daughter my nephews age. He had a major crush on her, but she was
better friends with his little brother (4 years younger). They also
vacation once or twice a year with my sister's best friend from
college and her family, which includes 2 boys, the older of which is
only a year or two younger than my nephew. They are involved in
church.

But my nephew is the only one who literally has *no* friends. Not one
person he can pick up the phone and call. Maybe that has changed now
that he's at college. I hope so. Even introverts sometimes need
someone they can ask for a ride, or get an assignment from, or get a
hand from to move a couch.

Finally, consider that maybe he isn't comfortable telling his family
that it will be a sweet *boy* that will take him "out of his shell".

Well, he hasn't shown any indication that he's gay, but it doesn't
matter either way. All I'm saying is that I'm hopeful that someone
out there will put forth the extra effort it requires to get close to
him.

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

I would say that if a parent of a young child is worried that their child
is unable to make friends, that encouraging a friendship or two is a good
thing. If the child doesn't react well, then it's time to re-evaluate.


I think this advice is what it all boils down to. It's perfect advice.

Jen

"bizby40" wrote:


"sscreen" wrote in message
roups.com...
Anyway... what I'm getting at is that being shy isn't necessarily a
"bad" thing. Teach the child some conversational habits, maybe even
hold conversations with her yourself, and let the rest happen
naturally.

What you don't seem to get is that there is a difference between shy
and introverted. My husband is introverted. He gets along well with

My mother always told me that I was shy. I don't think I was. I AM
introverted, and am not a touchy-feely type of person at all - I really
don't (as a general rule) do the hugging and kissing type thing. That
seems to be a hard thing for the opposite type of people to understand BTW.

I was NOT intimidated by people. I always felt I was equal or superior to
them. I mostly kept quiet about that in public.

I actually think that our whole family is introverted (my dad, my mom, and
dd#1 - not sure about my grandparents). DD#2 is an extrovert.

most people and isn't intimidated by anybody, but he doesn't feel the
need to seek out company. He is, as they explain in Meyers-Briggs,
energized by his time alone. Socializing is tiring for him and if he
has too many social obligations, he gets very unhappy.

I am shy. I am *also* somewhat of an introvert, but I test at the
mid-range between introverted and extroverted in the M-B tests. But
shyness does not mean "prefers to be alone," shyness involves actually
being scared of or intimidated by others. And so shyness *is*
necessarily a bad thing -- or at least an unfortunate one for the
person involved.

Given the misuse of the 'shy' label, it is not surprising that people are
confused about the issue. I never understood why the wife of one of Bob's
squadron mates had to drink in order to socialize. But now I guess I do.

A shy child may never grow up to lose all their inhibitions, but they
can be taught confidence to some extent through positive interactions.
As parents, we can make a mistake either way -- by pushing a shy or
introverted child into situations they don't want or aren't ready for,
OR by failing to help a child who really wants and needs the help.

I would say that if a parent of a young child is worried that their
child is unable to make friends, that encouraging a friendship or two
is a good thing. If the child doesn't react well, then it's time to
re-evaluate.

I think that is a good idea, but not all parents are able to be balanced
about it. Anything that a parent has themselves had issues with is going
to be harder for them to deal with. For instance dd#2 was one who took
loses and failures very hard and would cry. When her ds was the same, she
wanted very much to train him so that he didn't do that.because she knew
how much of a problem it was for her.

"toypup" ) writes:
If the guest is
a classmate of shy child, I see a problem, because she wants to play with
shy child, not play by herself or with child's mom.

Unless you know all the child's classmates personally, I
don't think you can know this.

Many young children feel a need for more attention
from adults.