How to break 4 year old from shyness?

"bizby40" ) writes:
"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:
"sscreen" wrote in message
shyness involves actually
being scared of or intimidated by others. And so shyness *is*
necessarily a bad thing -- or at least an unfortunate one for the
person involved.

Just to be clear, I wrote all of the above, not sscreen.

I apologize for my carelessness in editing the headers.

I disagree. Fear has the purpose of avoiding dangerous
situations. Shy behaviour -- holding back and not talking
or interacting, especially with people one doesn't know well --
can often protect a person from being teased, cheated, yelled at
etc.
or just from spending time with people who aren't the best
personality type to match with their own personality.

I don't think that refraining from saying hi to strangers or not
spending time with someone you don't like is "shy behavior". Just
because a person is comfortable talking to others, doesn't mean they
will choose to do so at all times.

You don't have to call it "shy behaviour", but surely shyness
tends to cause people not to do things like say hi to
strangers. Note that I was talking about not talking to
people one doesn't know well, not about not talking to
people one doesn't like.

I strongly disagree that being shy offers protection against being
teased.

I believe that shyness gives some protection in some situations
and that that is why an instinct for shyness is in our genes.
Example: shyness might lead a person to stay home rather than
go to a party. One result is that they can't be teased at that
party. Being shy could also cause teasing at times.

Can you give reasons to support your disagreement?

It appears as though you consider shyness to be the opposite
of obnoxiousness.

I don't consider shyness to be the opposite of obnoxiousness.
I consider shyness to be something which is not necessarily
either good or bad.

While it's true that it's hard to be both obnoxious
and shy (or at least it's hard to be obnoxious to people with whom you
are shy), I don't see them as opposites. Neither is the ideal.

OK, I agree that it's hard to be both obnoxious and shy.
Can you see that therefore being shy can provide some
protection against interpersonal problems with other people?

I do agree that shyness is a continuum, not an on or off thing. Most
people have some degree of shyness in some situations. It only
becomes a problem if it's bad enough that the person experiencing it
is unhappy, or is unable to achieve the things he or she wants to
achieve because of it.

I agree.

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
"bizby40" ) writes:
"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:
"sscreen" wrote in message
shyness involves actually
being scared of or intimidated by others. And so shyness *is*
necessarily a bad thing -- or at least an unfortunate one for the
person involved.

Just to be clear, I wrote all of the above, not sscreen.

I apologize for my carelessness in editing the headers.

I disagree. Fear has the purpose of avoiding dangerous
situations. Shy behaviour -- holding back and not talking
or interacting, especially with people one doesn't know well --
can often protect a person from being teased, cheated, yelled at
etc.
or just from spending time with people who aren't the best
personality type to match with their own personality.

I don't think that refraining from saying hi to strangers or not
spending time with someone you don't like is "shy behavior". Just
because a person is comfortable talking to others, doesn't mean they
will choose to do so at all times.

You don't have to call it "shy behaviour", but surely shyness
tends to cause people not to do things like say hi to
strangers. Note that I was talking about not talking to
people one doesn't know well, not about not talking to
people one doesn't like.

Not here. I quite often say hi or nod/smile to people I don't know, on
the street, in stores, at the doctor's office, etc. When I don't, it's
very, very seldom shyness/fear at work. More likely it's:

* I'm mentally preoccupied/focusing elsewhere (big one)

* I'm in a rush (also big)

* I see they're preoccupied (reading/on a cell phone/with another
person).

* I'm in no mood for/have no time for a stranger to glom on to me with
lengthy conversation (this has been known to happen just from making
eye contact and nodding). OK, I guess this is a little bit of fear, but
it's not fear that I'm socially inadequate/the other person won't like
me -- it's fear that I'm going to get stuck in a
difficult-to-extricate-from situation!

I'm a bit hesitant in new situations with new people, but I wouldn't
call it "shy" -- I think it's more about laying back and observing
until I have the lay of the land and figure out how to best adapt to
this particular place/group/set of circumstances.

Lori G.
Milwaukee, WI

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
"bizby40" ) writes:
I don't think that refraining from saying hi to strangers or not
spending time with someone you don't like is "shy behavior". Just
because a person is comfortable talking to others, doesn't mean
they
will choose to do so at all times.

You don't have to call it "shy behaviour", but surely shyness
tends to cause people not to do things like say hi to
strangers. Note that I was talking about not talking to
people one doesn't know well, not about not talking to
people one doesn't like.

I got "someone you don't like" from where you said, "people who aren't
the best personality type to match with their own personality". Yes,
shyness does keep people from talking to strangers, I'm just saying
that you can be not shy, and still not talk to strangers.

I strongly disagree that being shy offers protection against being
teased.

I believe that shyness gives some protection in some situations
and that that is why an instinct for shyness is in our genes.
Example: shyness might lead a person to stay home rather than
go to a party. One result is that they can't be teased at that
party. Being shy could also cause teasing at times.

Can you give reasons to support your disagreement?

It may just be a matter of semantics. To me, fearfulness is an
integral part of shyness. Being quiet or reserved without
fearfullness is introversion. Saying that shyness can be good because
a shy person might be too fearful to put themselves in situations
where they might be hurt is kind of like saying that being blind can
be a good thing because it keeps you from seeing things that might
upset you.

The best protection from teasing is not to hide from it -- it's to
have the self-confidence not to be bothered by it. Some people
disagreed before when I equated shyness with low self-esteem, but I
still believe they are connected. Shyness may keep you away from that
party, but you will still have to go to school every day, ride the bus
every day, be out in the world of people every day. Being shy is sort
of a triple whammy -- first, you have fewer friends, so you don't have
people around you to stand up for you, second, you are more likely to
get bothered by the things people say, and third, because you are
bothered and because you don't have the snappy comebacks, you're more
likely to continue getting teased.

It appears as though you consider shyness to be the opposite
of obnoxiousness.

I don't consider shyness to be the opposite of obnoxiousness.
I consider shyness to be something which is not necessarily
either good or bad.

Being quiet or reserved is not good or bad, but I think being fearful
is bad.

While it's true that it's hard to be both obnoxious
and shy (or at least it's hard to be obnoxious to people with whom
you
are shy), I don't see them as opposites. Neither is the ideal.

OK, I agree that it's hard to be both obnoxious and shy.
Can you see that therefore being shy can provide some
protection against interpersonal problems with other people?

Being shy and being obnoxious are both problems. It's true that I'd
rather have a shy neighbor than an obnoxious one because the shy
neighbor will cause me less problems and be easier to ignore. But as
the shy or obnoxious person, I don't think it would matter to me why
my neighbor was avoiding me.

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote:

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
"bizby40" ) writes:
snip
I strongly disagree that being shy offers protection against being
teased.

I believe that shyness gives some protection in some situations
and that that is why an instinct for shyness is in our genes.
Example: shyness might lead a person to stay home rather than
go to a party. One result is that they can't be teased at that
party. Being shy could also cause teasing at times.

Can you give reasons to support your disagreement?

It may just be a matter of semantics. To me, fearfulness is an
integral part of shyness. Being quiet or reserved without
fearfullness is introversion. Saying that shyness can be good because
a shy person might be too fearful to put themselves in situations
where they might be hurt is kind of like saying that being blind can
be a good thing because it keeps you from seeing things that might
upset you.

The best protection from teasing is not to hide from it -- it's to
have the self-confidence not to be bothered by it. Some people
disagreed before when I equated shyness with low self-esteem, but I
still believe they are connected. Shyness may keep you away from that
party, but you will still have to go to school every day, ride the bus
every day, be out in the world of people every day. Being shy is sort
of a triple whammy -- first, you have fewer friends, so you don't have
people around you to stand up for you, second, you are more likely to
get bothered by the things people say, and third, because you are
bothered and because you don't have the snappy comebacks, you're more
likely to continue getting teased.

I don't think anyone can get out of life without being teased.
Everyone will be teased at some point. Some people have a lot of
friends, and some people have only a few friends. That has no effect
on whether one is teased or not. Sometimes it is ones friends who do
the teasing.

There are levels of teasing as in anything else. My mom was born and
mostly brought up in NC so she had a southern accent. When she went
to school in the Philadelphia area, she was teased about her accent,
so she lost it.

Also whether one is shy or not doesn't have anything to do with
whether one has a snappy comeback, nor is that necessarily the answer
to teasing. My sister is quite extroverted and the opposite of shy,
yet she does not have snappy comebacks and never has. She used to
ascribe this to the fact that I'm older (2.5 years), but I don't think
that applies any more, and she still doesn't have snappy comebacks.

It appears as though you consider shyness to be the opposite
of obnoxiousness.

I don't consider shyness to be the opposite of obnoxiousness.
I consider shyness to be something which is not necessarily
either good or bad.

Being quiet or reserved is not good or bad, but I think being fearful
is bad.

Everyone is fearful. The difference is in how you deal with that.
The people that you think are confident are fearful too. You just
don't see it.

While it's true that it's hard to be both obnoxious
and shy (or at least it's hard to be obnoxious to people with whom
you are shy), I don't see them as opposites. Neither is the ideal.

It IS possible to be both shy and obnoxious. It is a perfect
opportunity for passive aggressive behavior.

OK, I agree that it's hard to be both obnoxious and shy.
Can you see that therefore being shy can provide some
protection against interpersonal problems with other people?

No I don't see it as any protection at all. If you have some kind of
phobia it only provides the protection in that you spend your life
avoiding situations where you will be paralyzed by fear. I don't
think that is helpful.

For instance. If you try to keep a low profile in school and do not
raise your hand to answer a question, the teacher can still call on
you, and then your shyness will make it difficult to answer and then
you may be teased because you couldn't answer.

Being shy and being obnoxious are both problems. It's true that I'd
rather have a shy neighbor than an obnoxious one because the shy
neighbor will cause me less problems and be easier to ignore. But as
the shy or obnoxious person, I don't think it would matter to me why
my neighbor was avoiding me.

In article , Rosalie B. says...

"bizby40" wrote:


The best protection from teasing is not to hide from it -- it's to
have the self-confidence not to be bothered by it.

See - I really disagree with that, at least for the mean spirited teasing that
goes along with bullying.

Bullies just persist until they get a reaction, moving to more and more abusive
tactics. The "just ignore it" adage might work for light teasing of kids that
are basically well-connected. Not for a kid that is targetted.

I especially object that it's part of the blaming the victim syndrome of
bullying. Y'know - the idea that if the kid just didn't react and wasn't such
a puss, he or she wouldn't be a target. Phooey.

Some people
disagreed before when I equated shyness with low self-esteem, but I
still believe they are connected. Shyness may keep you away from that
party, but you will still have to go to school every day, ride the bus
every day, be out in the world of people every day. Being shy is sort
of a triple whammy -- first, you have fewer friends, so you don't have
people around you to stand up for you, second, you are more likely to
get bothered by the things people say, and third, because you are
bothered and because you don't have the snappy comebacks, you're more
likely to continue getting teased.

I don't think anyone can get out of life without being teased.
Everyone will be teased at some point. Some people have a lot of
friends, and some people have only a few friends. That has no effect
on whether one is teased or not. Sometimes it is ones friends who do
the teasing.

There are levels of teasing as in anything else. My mom was born and
mostly brought up in NC so she had a southern accent. When she went
to school in the Philadelphia area, she was teased about her accent,
so she lost it.

Which is really how most kids deal with teasing. By blending in, getting
whatever connections they can, and either standing by or joining in when other
kids are teased. So a kid that isn't teased isn't enjoying the benefit of a
better character - it's a combination of luck and willingness to conform.


Also whether one is shy or not doesn't have anything to do with
whether one has a snappy comeback, nor is that necessarily the answer
to teasing. My sister is quite extroverted and the opposite of shy,
yet she does not have snappy comebacks and never has. She used to
ascribe this to the fact that I'm older (2.5 years), but I don't think
that applies any more, and she still doesn't have snappy comebacks.

I agree. I think this connection between shyness (which I still think is very
very likely to be just how introverted kids are dealing with being thrown into a
mass of other kids) and adjustement is way too simplistic.


It appears as though you consider shyness to be the opposite
of obnoxiousness.

I don't consider shyness to be the opposite of obnoxiousness.
I consider shyness to be something which is not necessarily
either good or bad.

Being quiet or reserved is not good or bad, but I think being fearful
is bad.

Everyone is fearful. The difference is in how you deal with that.
The people that you think are confident are fearful too. You just
don't see it.

I think that's very true. They may just be more motivated to forge forth in
social situations because, being extroverted, they have more to gain from it.



While it's true that it's hard to be both obnoxious
and shy (or at least it's hard to be obnoxious to people with whom
you are shy), I don't see them as opposites. Neither is the ideal.

It IS possible to be both shy and obnoxious. It is a perfect
opportunity for passive aggressive behavior.

Yep.

Banty

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"bizby40" wrote:
I don't think anyone can get out of life without being teased.
Everyone will be teased at some point. Some people have a lot of
friends, and some people have only a few friends. That has no
effect
on whether one is teased or not. Sometimes it is ones friends who
do
the teasing.

You and I disagree on so much that I'm not sure it's worth trying to
discuss it. Generally the teasing done by one's friends is of the
gentle sort and not what we were talking about. If you don't believe
that the popular are less likely to be the subject of cruel teasing
than the unpopular, then I can't convince you otherwise, but I don't
agree.

Also whether one is shy or not doesn't have anything to do with
whether one has a snappy comeback, nor is that necessarily the
answer
to teasing. My sister is quite extroverted and the opposite of shy,
yet she does not have snappy comebacks and never has. She used to
ascribe this to the fact that I'm older (2.5 years), but I don't
think
that applies any more, and she still doesn't have snappy comebacks.

It may have no bearing on whether or not you can come up with them,
but it does have a bearing on whether or not you can bring yourself to
deliver them.

Being quiet or reserved is not good or bad, but I think being
fearful
is bad.

Everyone is fearful. The difference is in how you deal with that.
The people that you think are confident are fearful too. You just
don't see it.

What makes you say that?

It IS possible to be both shy and obnoxious. It is a perfect
opportunity for passive aggressive behavior.

Obnoxious isn't a catch all term for being mean -- it specifically
means the "in your face" kind of annoying. From dictionary.com
"annoying or objectionable due to being a showoff or attracting undue
attention to oneself".

[snip section where you were responding to Catherine]

Bizby

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Rosalie B.
says...

"bizby40" wrote:


The best protection from teasing is not to hide from it -- it's to
have the self-confidence not to be bothered by it.

See - I really disagree with that, at least for the mean spirited
teasing that
goes along with bullying.

I think you're picturing something different than what I mean. As a
shy kid, I was often subjected to the kind of mean-spirited teasing
that you're talking about. As a defense mechanism, I ignored it
completely. Withdrew into myself and got a glassy-eyed look. And no,
it didn't stop the teasing, it only escalated it. Eventually after
the verbal harrassment didn't work, they started in with physical
harrassment -- nothing major, but I was tripped, shoved, and had my
hair pulled. This is *not* what I meant by "not being bothered by
it."

I was thinking more of a friend of mine. I remember one time when
someone said something to him and then said, "No offense." Someone
else said, "Oh, it's not even possible to offend him." And they were
right. I don't even know if it would be possible to "tease" this dude
in a mean way, since he'd just laugh along with you and joke right
back. This isn't the kind of attitude that you can fake successfully
I don't think. Or at least I never could.

Bullies just persist until they get a reaction, moving to more and
more abusive
tactics. The "just ignore it" adage might work for light teasing of
kids that
are basically well-connected. Not for a kid that is targetted.

Yeah, well, the kind of kid who is targeted is generally not the kind
who can pull off not being bothered.

I especially object that it's part of the blaming the victim
syndrome of
bullying. Y'know - the idea that if the kid just didn't react and
wasn't such
a puss, he or she wouldn't be a target. Phooey.

No, it's accepting the truth. Just as muggers pick weak looking
targets, so do bullies. People that can give as good as they get
aren't as likely to be picked on for long.

kids are teased. So a kid that isn't teased isn't enjoying the
benefit of a
better character - it's a combination of luck and willingness to
conform.

??? This statement just seemed to come out of nowhere. Who is
claiming that teasing is an indicator of poor character, or that not
teasing is an indicator of good character?

[snipped the rest of where you were responding to Rosalie]

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
"bizby40" wrote:
I don't think anyone can get out of life without being teased.
Everyone will be teased at some point. Some people have a lot of
friends, and some people have only a few friends. That has no
effect
on whether one is teased or not. Sometimes it is ones friends who
do
the teasing.

You and I disagree on so much that I'm not sure it's worth trying to
discuss it. Generally the teasing done by one's friends is of the
gentle sort and not what we were talking about. If you don't believe
that the popular are less likely to be the subject of cruel teasing
than the unpopular, then I can't convince you otherwise, but I don't
agree.

I'm not talking about bullying, which I think is different from just
teasing - although there is an element of cruelty in almost all
teasing however gentle. It is the same with sarcasm.

I agree that if you equate popular with not-shy, then popular people
are less likely to be teased simply because there are less people
available to tease them. But I think you could just as easily say
popular equals extrovert, and therefore only introverts are teased or
bullied, and I don't think that is true.

Also whether one is shy or not doesn't have anything to do with
whether one has a snappy comeback, nor is that necessarily the
answer
to teasing. My sister is quite extroverted and the opposite of shy,
yet she does not have snappy comebacks and never has. She used to
ascribe this to the fact that I'm older (2.5 years), but I don't
think
that applies any more, and she still doesn't have snappy comebacks.

It may have no bearing on whether or not you can come up with them,
but it does have a bearing on whether or not you can bring yourself to
deliver them.

Well that's a different issue, which is beyond just shyness IMHO. If
you think of it but can't say it, that's more of a problem. It's not
that you think of the come-back later that night when you are in bed -
that doesn't count.

Being quiet or reserved is not good or bad, but I think being
fearful
is bad.

Everyone is fearful. The difference is in how you deal with that.
The people that you think are confident are fearful too. You just
don't see it.

What makes you say that?

OK - I will give you an example which was an epiphany for me. I
flunked French in college because when I took the placement exam I did
so well on it that they put me into an advanced class. But I knew no
grammar and couldn't spell, so when the prof gave us a verb test every
week, I flunked. He caught up to me one day when I was walking to
class and asked me how I was doing. I said I was doing OK, meaning I
was getting Bs. He (an extrovert) thought that if I was getting Bs I
should have said I was doing very well, and he thought OK was Cs and
Ds. So (I found out later) he felt that I was a lost cause and told
me that if I passed the final I would pass and otherwise I would fail.
This gave me one of the only cases of test anxiety I've ever had, and
of course I failed.

In order to get my language requirement out of the way, I took French
in summer school. There were only two of us in the course of college
age - the rest of the girls in the dorm were all high school age from
NYC. They put the two of us college girls together as roommates. My
roommate was a girl from Randolph Macon (in those days a woman's
college) named Marti. Marti was an extreme extrovert, and was soon
dating one of the professors. She was a party girl - staying out late,
dancing etc and she did tease me a little for being so much quieter,
not being sexually active etc. I would have said she had no fears.

One day she was going to be late to dinner, and she asked me to wait
to go in to dinner with her because she thought everyone would stare
at her for coming in late. I was astonished - both because I thought
she would welcome being stared at, and because I would not have
thought that it would have fazed her. But I agreed. And when we
walked into the dining hall, I looked around to see if people were
looking at us. They were not. All of them were concentrating on
eating and on their French conversation.

Since then, I've basically felt invisible. Because my conclusion was
that everyone thinks that everyone else is staring at them, and really
most people are just focused on themselves and are not going to be
paying attention to me unless I do something specific to call
attention to myself. And I just don't worry about it anymore.

It IS possible to be both shy and obnoxious. It is a perfect
opportunity for passive aggressive behavior.

Obnoxious isn't a catch all term for being mean -- it specifically
means the "in your face" kind of annoying. From dictionary.com
"annoying or objectionable due to being a showoff or attracting undue
attention to oneself".

That's the second definition. The first and more inclusive definition
is
"highly objectionable or offensive; odious" which doesn't necessarily
mean 'in your face'.

[snip section where you were responding to Catherine]

Bizby

Most of our disagreement probably is in our different definition of
shyness. Shyness is not the same as introverted, and it is NOT a
pathological condition like agoraphobia or social phobia. You seem to
be describing a social phobia and not shyness.

1. bashful; retiring.
2. easily frightened away; timid.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"bizby40" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
"bizby40" wrote:
I don't think anyone can get out of life without being teased.
Everyone will be teased at some point. Some people have a lot of
friends, and some people have only a few friends. That has no
effect
on whether one is teased or not. Sometimes it is ones friends who
do
the teasing.

You and I disagree on so much that I'm not sure it's worth trying to
discuss it. Generally the teasing done by one's friends is of the
gentle sort and not what we were talking about. If you don't
believe
that the popular are less likely to be the subject of cruel teasing
than the unpopular, then I can't convince you otherwise, but I don't
agree.

I'm not talking about bullying, which I think is different from just
teasing - although there is an element of cruelty in almost all
teasing however gentle. It is the same with sarcasm.

Okay, but I was talking about teasing to be mean, which is a form of
bullying. I don't think there is an element of cruelty in all
teasing. I think teasing between people who love each other can even
bring them closer.

I agree that if you equate popular with not-shy, then popular people
are less likely to be teased simply because there are less people
available to tease them. But I think you could just as easily say
popular equals extrovert, and therefore only introverts are teased
or
bullied, and I don't think that is true.

I don't think I ever said "only" anything. Just "more likely" and
"less likely". I'm sure everybody has been teased at some point. But
it is my opinion (you don't have to agree) that a self-confident
person is less likely to fall victim to the more harmful bullying kind
of teasing than a less confident person. And it is also my opinion
(you still don't have to agree) that shyness and a lack of
self-confidence are intertwined.

It may have no bearing on whether or not you can come up with them,
but it does have a bearing on whether or not you can bring yourself
to
deliver them.

Well that's a different issue, which is beyond just shyness IMHO.
If
you think of it but can't say it, that's more of a problem. It's not
that you think of the come-back later that night when you are in
bed -
that doesn't count.

??? What do you think shyness is, if not an inability to speak up
easily?

One day she was going to be late to dinner, and she asked me to wait
to go in to dinner with her because she thought everyone would stare
at her for coming in late. I was astonished - both because I
thought
she would welcome being stared at, and because I would not have
thought that it would have fazed her.

This doesn't mean that everyone is fearful to the same extent, or of
the same things. Most people are somewhat shy in certain
situations -- fine with the guys, shy around girls, fine in small
groups, shy in a crowd and so forth. Still, some are more fearful
more often than others.

Obnoxious isn't a catch all term for being mean -- it specifically
means the "in your face" kind of annoying. From dictionary.com
"annoying or objectionable due to being a showoff or attracting
undue
attention to oneself".

That's the second definition. The first and more inclusive
definition
is "highly objectionable or offensive; odious" which doesn't
necessarily
mean 'in your face'.

shrug To me it does.

Most of our disagreement probably is in our different definition of
shyness. Shyness is not the same as introverted, and it is NOT a
pathological condition like agoraphobia or social phobia. You seem
to
be describing a social phobia and not shyness.

1. bashful; retiring.
2. easily frightened away; timid.

As I've said all along, shyness covers a wide spectrum from a little
awkward and tongue-tied, all the way up to the social phobia. Most of
my examples are drawn from my own life, and while I was and am still
quite shy, I don't think it qualifies as a social phobia. After all,
I did manage to get through school, function in society, hold jobs,
even marry.

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
"bizby40" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"bizby40" wrote:

moved to the top

Most of our disagreement probably is in our different definition of
shyness. Shyness is not the same as introverted, and it is NOT a
pathological condition like agoraphobia or social phobia. You seem
to
be describing a social phobia and not shyness.

Shyness is defined as
1. bashful; retiring.
2. easily frightened away; timid.

As I've said all along, shyness covers a wide spectrum from a little
awkward and tongue-tied, all the way up to the social phobia. Most of
my examples are drawn from my own life, and while I was and am still
quite shy, I don't think it qualifies as a social phobia. After all,
I did manage to get through school, function in society, hold jobs,
even marry.

Bizby

Then that is basically where our disagreement is. We were both
diagnosed as shy (by other people or self-diagnosed), but inside we
were different people so our perception of 'shy' is quite different.

I was told all my life that I was shy, and my mom thought she was shy,
and my sister in contrast was not shy. But I was NOT timid and am not
now easily frightened. It was just that I didn't like to be touched,
and when I was a child I was somewhat taciturn and my mom explained
this by telling me and others that I was shy.

And my sister was far more timid than I was although she talked all
the time and would happily greet strangers in our home and was a very
touchy-feely person. So she was 'not-shy'.

But when we were children and we were traveling by public
transportation to some location for the first time - just the two of
us - she would be nervous about whether we had reached our stop yet,
and would bug me until I asked the bus driver whether we had reached
our stop yet. She was nervous about it, and she was too timid to ask
herself, whereas I thought it was unnecessary, but was not too timid
to ask. So actually - she was the shy one, although she did not give
that impression to others, and so was not labeled shy.

DD#1 was not what I would have regarded as shy, but in first grade,
the teacher said she always looked like she would burst into tears
when she (the teacher) reprimanded the little boy sitting next to her.



I don't think anyone can get out of life without being teased.
Everyone will be teased at some point. Some people have a lot of
friends, and some people have only a few friends. That has no
effect on whether one is teased or not. Sometimes it is ones friends who
do the teasing.

You and I disagree on so much that I'm not sure it's worth trying to
discuss it. Generally the teasing done by one's friends is of the
gentle sort and not what we were talking about. If you don't
believe
that the popular are less likely to be the subject of cruel teasing
than the unpopular, then I can't convince you otherwise, but I don't
agree.

I'm not talking about bullying, which I think is different from just
teasing - although there is an element of cruelty in almost all
teasing however gentle. It is the same with sarcasm.

Okay, but I was talking about teasing to be mean, which is a form of
bullying. I don't think there is an element of cruelty in all
teasing. I think teasing between people who love each other can even
bring them closer.

Yes teasing to be mean is a form of bullying, but I don't think that
the majority of teasing is that, and I would be quite concerned if
that was the case. But even in teasing between people who are quite
close, if there was no element of cruelty, it wouldn't be teasing.
What point would there be to it otherwise - it wouldn't be a tease if
there was no possibility that it would be some kind of a problem to
the recipient. It would just be joking conversation.

I agree that if you equate popular with not-shy, then popular people
are less likely to be teased simply because there are less people
available to tease them. But I think you could just as easily say
popular equals extrovert, and therefore only introverts are teased
or
bullied, and I don't think that is true.

I don't think I ever said "only" anything. Just "more likely" and
"less likely". I'm sure everybody has been teased at some point. But
it is my opinion (you don't have to agree) that a self-confident
person is less likely to fall victim to the more harmful bullying kind
of teasing than a less confident person. And it is also my opinion
(you still don't have to agree) that shyness and a lack of
self-confidence are intertwined.

I think this is probably a difference of our experience of shyness.
And also probably the difference between what we regard as teasing.
While bullies 'tease', I'm not sure that we should call bullying
'teasing'. It is more toxic than most teasing IMHO. Bullies do tend
to pick people who are more vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that
they can't at some time pick on someone who is not really vulnerable.
It's just that the non-vulnerable (whether shy or not) make it not
likely that they will continue.

It may have no bearing on whether or not you can come up with them,
but it does have a bearing on whether or not you can bring yourself
to
deliver them.

Well that's a different issue, which is beyond just shyness IMHO.
If
you think of it but can't say it, that's more of a problem. It's not
that you think of the come-back later that night when you are in
bed -
that doesn't count.

??? What do you think shyness is, if not an inability to speak up
easily?

I don't think that ALL shyness has that great a degree of timidity.
Based again on my own experience where I had no difficulty speaking up
for myself if pushed far enough.

And also based on my mom's habit of making me practice what I was
going to say before I would make a phone call or something where what
I was going to say (or what I would forget to say) would be a problem
or where I might get tongue tied and not be able to talk. I still do
this, although I don't do it formally and out loud - I run through
possible scenarios in my mind and figure out what I might say.

One day she was going to be late to dinner, and she asked me to wait
to go in to dinner with her because she thought everyone would stare
at her for coming in late. I was astonished - both because I
thought
she would welcome being stared at, and because I would not have
thought that it would have fazed her.

This doesn't mean that everyone is fearful to the same extent, or of
the same things. Most people are somewhat shy in certain
situations -- fine with the guys, shy around girls, fine in small
groups, shy in a crowd and so forth. Still, some are more fearful
more often than others.

Yes that's true. But I think that the perception that one is the
focus of everyone else is the reason for a lot of fear and timidity.

Obnoxious isn't a catch all term for being mean -- it specifically
means the "in your face" kind of annoying. From dictionary.com
"annoying or objectionable due to being a showoff or attracting
undue
attention to oneself".

That's the second definition. The first and more inclusive
definition
is "highly objectionable or offensive; odious" which doesn't
necessarily
mean 'in your face'.

shrug To me it does.

I just think that a person can be obnoxious even when he/she is not
being obnoxious TO ME.