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#121
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Penny Gaines wrote
The class is not being given spelling this year. For some subjects - such as geography and health, the class is taught together. For numeracy and literacy (or rather maths and English), the class is split into four groups, each with about 5 kids in it. Some of the time the class works together, some of the time each group works at its own level. Sometimes dd's group goes to the library to work on its own, but then as I said before, the library is in the next room. For maths, each child has their own workbook, at the appropriate level for the child. In English, I think she gets the same worksheets, but is expected to write more then some of the other kids. Wow -- is ability grouping common in the UK? If I understand correctly, it has been all but wiped out of public schools in the U.S. It sounds like wonderful common sense to me. |
#122
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Michelle J. Haines wrote:
In article , says... Weeeelllllll, yes it's a national idiocy, but he's jumped on the bandwagon and has the influence to help it spread. At the very least, he certainly hasn't stood in its way! And he supported a lot of "reforms" in that direction in Texas. Which makes him more or less like most of the other politicians in the country. Oh, this certainly isn't a partisan issue. As far as I can tell, lots of politicians on both sides of the aisle are afflicted with this particular malady. I'm a lot less mad at him these days (since he exempted homeschoolers from a lot of the No Child Left Behind stuff) than I am at the Democratic candidates in Wyoming last session who tried who change all our homeschooling laws to require portfolios and mandatory testing and and criminal penalties if you're kids aren't progressing fast enough, etc. Eh, I'm feeling cranky today--not feeling like giving *any* of 'em any slack ;-) Best wishes, Ericka |
#123
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
Nevermind wrote:
Wow -- is ability grouping common in the UK? If I understand correctly, it has been all but wiped out of public schools in the U.S. It sounds like wonderful common sense to me. It sure isn't wiped out in the public schools here. In my sons' school they ability group for math and reading in every grade past kindergarten (except it seems that they don't in the center based GT program, which I suppose makes sense). They have as many groups as they have teachers for that grade. So, this year there are something like six first grade teachers, so they have seven reading groups (each teacher has one, plus there's a reading specialist) and six math groups. The groups are relatively fluid, so children who need to move up or down accordingly. Seems to work like a charm. Best wishes, Ericka |
#124
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote
Vicki wrote: Today we received a warning letter for truancy for our 2nd grader. The principal said she was concerned about dd's absences. I am not concerned about dd's absences--she is bright, she knows the material [she's missed five days this month, but received 100 on her test for materials covered.] I don't think the teacher is concerned. But the principal said dd is only allowed 5 excused absences per semester. This is similar to the situation in our school district. You can thank the "No Child Left Behind" law for this. A lot of flexibility has been removed from the local level. Hello Ericka-- Do you know... does this mean that to get this law changed for our state we would have to work at the national level? snip We had planned to talk at school conferences about keeping dd home one day per week, or bi-weekly, to enhance her education. But from what I've read about truancy laws tonight, this doesn't seem to be allowable. Has anyone done this or know if it is doable? I suspect this would not go over well. I would think it would be *highly* disruptive to the teacher and the rest of the class. I would either homeschool full time, leave things as they are, or look for enrichment through the school (GT programs, etc.). You'd be asking a *lot* of the teacher. He or she would have to figure out how to make sure your child suffered no ill effects from missing up to 20 percent of the class! That would mean no quizzes/tests or other assessments on that day, no special activities, etc. I would think that would be pretty unreasonable to request. I don't think dd would suffer from missing 20% of class (but I'd been leaning more towards 10%). I thought taking dd out would be *easiest* for the teacher. Shows how much I know! I hadn't expected teacher would do anything to "make up" work for dd. The point was to give the class time to catch up without dd sitting there spinning her wheels. Reading people's objections, it seems I've misjudged how much work a teacher has to do when a child misses. This must have to do with record-keeping and evaluation, not with actual teaching. I don't care what marks dd receives at this point, but I suppose the school cares, and must record them. I don't expect much from the school in terms of education--they are passing time. I hadn't articulated this, but as long as dd was having fun with her friends, I thought we could bide our time and she would (eventually) get an education at school. This part-time home school idea was so that she could get *some* education until the public school kicked in. And stating it, that's probably pretty stupid on my part: I should ask that they teach dd *something* in the time she is there. We don't have a separate program for kids who excel academically. They've pulled four kids in dd's grade into one class and have them do some different activities, but this is limited, and has been new ground here. Funny as it may sound, I'd prefer dd not be pulled out for a lot of "specials" away from her class, prefer she not be singled out. I'd prefer that she be taught within the classroom. Yeah, I know. I've been told that a really good teacher can teach to a lot of different levels within one classroom and that everyone will benefit. I think dd's teacher is good... but that kind of teaching doesn't seem to happen here. I do need to ask at teacher conferences that teacher actually teach my child, and ask how she will measure that. If it will be less work for her to actually teach dd, it would be easier for me, and better for dd. I just don't see it happening in-class, so all the trouble of having her pulled out of class are still there, and then some. Oh well. Their record-keeping would be easier. And I'd be being reasonable. Joy ;-) Thanks for your thoughts. They're helping me make a plan. V |
#125
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Cathy Kearns" wrote
"Beth" wrote in message Ericka Kammerer wrote in message We had planned to talk at school conferences about keeping dd home one day per week, or bi-weekly, to enhance her education. But from what I've read about truancy laws tonight, this doesn't seem to be allowable. Has anyone done this or know if it is doable? In regards to the part-time homeschooling issue. I see a lot of responses like this, basically saying it's all or nothing, so just forget about part-time homeschooling. That's not true, though it is dependent on how supportive your school is. I'm not acquainted with anyone who's done it as one or two days of week of homeschooling, but I know more than one person who has, at around that age, sent their child to school for half the day and homeschooled the other half. Generally, they've been pleased with the arrangement. If you are interested in part-time homeschooling, I strongly recommend you bring up with your child's teacher and see what she is willing to do to accomodate you. If you can reach an agreement with her, it's likely the two of you can convince the administration to go along. I think Beth has a great point. If your second grade has a scheduled time everyday you could pick a subject and always pull out during that subject. That way the teacher doesn't have to worry about your child missing tests or ensuring she makes up work. Another option you might consider is a school that encourages independent study. Montessori schools fall into this catagory, I know there is a small private school near here that goes year round, but the kids are only required to attend a certain number of days, but they can pick their own holidays and vacation days. This would allow you to pick the days your child attends, and you could pull out at will. Since you are already donating time and money to your school it's apparent you have the time and money to go toward a private school. The biggest disadvantage of public schools is the rules are made by those who hold the purse strings. If you have no money you have to hope the local schools are good enough. But the idea of public schooling is how to best school everyone, as a whole, not everyone individually. Thanks to Beth and Cathy for not dismissing the idea of pt homeschool completely :-). I hadn't thought it was such a bad idea! Oh well. I don't think it's going to fly in the face of these truancy rules. The Montesorri school sounds great. Education is important to us, but private school is beyond our means, even with scholarships. When my younger two start school I'll go back to work ft, but even so... by then dd will be established in school and we won't want to pull her, and also we'd have three in school--that would be over $24K per year tuition. It's just not a possibility for us. So we have to support the school we're in. We are investigating a move to another school district, but I'm finding a correlation between quality of school (if you measure by high test scores and low suspension rates) and home prices. Imagine that. I think I'll go buy a lottery ticket. |
#126
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Nikki" wrote in message ... H Schinske wrote: Sue ) wrote: Well imo, you are essentially telling your daughter that rules don't matter, school doesn't matter and that she can stay home at any whim. What is she going to do in the real adult world when she has a job? Stay home because she feels like it. And what are you telling your child when you say that school is important to stay in even when you are not learning anything? I think that is a message that is being put across to way too many bright kids, and one reason why so many people don't have the guts to leave dead-end jobs or work to make their lives more interesting. --Helen I don't think the part time homeschooling thing would work so great. I do think kids can miss school here and there, for family days, a museum trip, etc. and not suffer any negative consequences. I even got some completely freebee days where once a year or so I was allowed to stay home just because I couldn't possibly deal with school that day! Didn't hurt me a bit. I was top of my class, never take a sick day at work, wildly successful at life ;-), lol. I guess I think an occasional miss helps kids learn balance as well. Sometimes things *are* more important then school or your job. Also, with a job, we get vacation days so we can miss for whatever reason we want to. Nikki Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2) My parents took us out of school for two weeks every winter, right after xmas holidays. We'd drive down to Mexico and stay 4 weeks. This was our family vacation and our xmas present. We missed hearing about what everyone got for xmas, we reconnected with family, got away from the pressure of teenage groups--helped us keep balanced. And my father got sun, which reduced his seasonal depression (even tho we didn't know what that was then,) and this made our winter with him bearable. I think it's hard to judge accurately what is best for another family. Under the laws now, I think we'd all have been truants and my parents would have been served notice. Yee haw. Long live the totalitarian state. |
#127
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"dragonlady" wrote in message
... In article , "Denise" wrote: "Brandy Kurtz" wrote in I have faced truancy problems with my 7 year old, but due to medical problems. In our district the children are allowed 20 days per 180 year of school. Anything over that requires a doctors note. Just because your dd is so much smarter than all the rest of the kids and you have financial influences in the school, they still can't bend the rules. It is a fact that her teacher will have to spend extra time and effort with your child to get the missed work done, which will take time away from the children that need her guidance. Since you think school is such a waste of time for her then you should just home-school, and let her socialize after school hours. Brandy wow... talk about putting words in someone else's mouth. I must have missed the post where the OP said all that. While I might not have phrased it exactly the way Brandy did, I certainly wondered why the OP felt it necessary to point out her family's financial contributions. I did understand why she was pointing out that her daughter wasn't suffering academically -- that is, imo, relevant to the concerns about missed classes. The fact that the family funded things in the community didn't seem to be relevant. OP here. Sorry, I was not trying to say we are wealthy (we aren't, too bad) or that we deserve special treatment due to financial contributions. Someone said the truancy note was all about the school getting money--I thought they meant money as in fines from us, not money as in school funding. I was trying to say, "but hey, that's shortsighted--they don't have to fine us, we're giving them money, we're helping them financially... we're invested. We support them. They don't have to threaten us to get us to do this." My comment was *not* relevant to state school funding. I'm not sure how they get those funds here, and will have to find out. But we are involved parents, we volunteer in and support the school in a myriad of ways. I guess that's the emotional level where the truancy note hit me--they are saying they are concerned my dd is not in school, like I am not making the best decisions for her, like she hasn't really been sick when I've called and told them this, like I don't have her best interests at heart, like I don't care about education both in general and specifically for dd. THere is an emotional component to this that is just tremendous. I'm surprised by how visceral this is. This law, 5 parental excused absenses and you're truant, is not fair, and it's invasive. It's not fair to me, involved, middle class parent, with a bright kid who isn't missing anything at school. It's not fair to ANY parent to require a doctor's excuse for an absence for a flu (esp for those parents who lack health insurance.) And it is invasive--it is government, through the school, invading on my rights to parent as I see fit. Oh, go vomit in the schools. I think the school should be allowed to use some *discretion* in deciding truancy. But if this is a national law that they have to follow... well, forget about local control. Go vomit on the whitehouse. Let's send all of our kids with the flu to Washington. Require them to sit with our senators and legislators until they are feeling better. Oops, they may never be home once they get that education. Egads. |
#128
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"dejablues" wrote in message ... "Vicki" wrote in message news Today we received a warning letter for truancy for our 2nd grader. The principal said she was concerned about dd's absences. I am not concerned about dd's absences--she is bright, she knows the material [she's missed five days this month, but received 100 on her test for materials covered.] I don't think the teacher is concerned. But the principal said dd is only allowed 5 excused absences per semester. I'm not happy about the possibility of legal sanctions for keeping dd home (she was sick this month, but I wouldn't hesitate to take her out of school for other things we feel are important.) You are teaching your daughter that it is OK to skip out on things that she *has* to do in order to do things she (or you ) *wants* to do. Why does she *have* to go sit in a class when she knows the material? Yes, we teach her it is OK, more than OK, to meet family responsibilities. To do things that we feel are important. These are things we want to do. Yes. They are wants. Why are our wishes considered so trivial? I think that discovering and understanding what we want, what we desire, is perhaps the most important thing we do. I want to teach dd and ds's to discover their desires and to learn how to achieve them. What we want is important. My SIL has breast cancer in her liver. My dd knows that we want to see her. She knows that it is OK that we go see her. OK that she miss class. OK that husband take off work. It is OK to do what is important for our family. I would not teach her that she should do what society tells her she HAS to do when it makes no sense for her or her family. You live with your choices, but you do what you feel is important to do, yes. THis is what I hope to teach my children. This exactly. Thanks for helping me clarify that. Can they prosecute us for truancy when dd is top of her class? I don't see the harm to anyone in dd not going. And she *will* miss more school at Thanksgiving (important family time.) There might be repercussions from other kids who think that your DD is getting "special treatment" in being allowed to miss days of school to go to museums, trips, etc., something that not everyone else gets to do. Why would they think it was "special treatment" to miss school? Maybe they are already jealous of her b/c she missed school with the flu. I don't think we'd advertise her other activities to her classmates, unless the teacher required this. But underlying your comment, the kids might bully her into conforming? Mmmm. I hadn't considered that. We had planned to talk at school conferences about keeping dd home one day per week, or bi-weekly, to enhance her education. But from what I've read about truancy laws tonight, this doesn't seem to be allowable. Has anyone done this or know if it is doable? dd does not want to homeschool full-time--she likes seeing her friends at school and we think this is good for her. We have discussed getting appropriate challenge in her classroom--the teacher has been helpful, but there is only so much she can do. We chose not to skip dd to the next grade as she is already the youngest in her class. There there schools that still skip children? I though this was pretty much abandoned by now. I skipped first grade (parents strongly pushed for it) , and while there were benefits, there were also significant drawbacks for me throughout my school career. Well, they do allow this. But our school encourages parents to hold their kids back a year instead. This is why our daughter is the youngest in her class. They asked if I was sure I wanted to start her in K that year (Sept cutoff, June birthday) but she was already reading and it seemed crazy to hold her back just so she could garner some dubious benefit by being the oldest in her class. But really, getting to your point, their policy essentially makes it just the same as if I skipped the girl. Many kids in her class are over a year older than her b/c they started late. Starting on time is skipping a grade here. And this is why I didn't put her in 1st grade, which would put her as two years or more older than most of her classmates. Have others faced this truancy problem? How do you approach it? If this is a law (5 days/semester,) does the principal have much leeway in enforcing it? If not, then who do we talk with? The DA? Is it possible to homeschool part-time (the days dd misses) and avoid a truancy enforcement? Could we test out of second grade and attendance be optional? dh is calling the principal next week, and we will meet with dd's teacher in three weeks. I'd like to have a sense of our options before we go so we do what's right by dd and cause the least distress to her teacher and principal (who are quite nice.) I bet they cringe when they see YOU coming! On what would you base that wager? Perhaps they do cringe. THis parent who loves her dd and has such low expectations of the school's performance. I think I'm reformed now though. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Vicki |
#129
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Jenrose" wrote in message
s.com... "Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Jenrose wrote: But you have a job where the nature of the job makes that possible. I have one of those too, and it's a really nice way to go. But there *are* jobs where that isn't possible. The way most classrooms are organized, the job of learning/teaching isn't one that can be done in a situation where the child is missing 20+ percent of school. Is the teacher *really* supposed to sit down each week and plan *everything* to accommodate the fact that a particular child is going to regularly miss a day that week? No. However.... The teacher must not schedule anything that would affect her grades that day? And, of course, it would be a shame to schedule anything particularly interesting or special that day, since this is a child who most needs those sorts of enriching activities. And what about group work? Will this child be excused from all group work so that her group won't be at a disadvantage by her absence? Or will all group work have to be scheduled around her schedule? And what about specials (music, PE, art, computer, etc.)? If the day she's skipping has one or more of those, then she's missing *all* of that activity, so what should happen with those grades? Should she be given a way to make those up? In an environment which focuses on education (rather than grades) and provides enough group work, special activities, enrichment, etc., there will be both the flexibility for a child to miss a class (without it affecting non-existing grades) and enough learning going on that maybe the parents don't feel they *need* to pull the child out to keep her learning. Now, one could argue that classes should be designed differently so that they had the flexibility to deal with this sort of thing. However, that would pretty much mean that they'd have to go to a sef-paced, self-directed sort of class. This would be a huge change, would probably require a significantly lower teacher:student ratio, and would wreak havoc with all the "accountability" testing and whatnot that has been implemented by our elected officials over the last several years. My daughter's classes are not self-paced, per se, nor self-directed. And the teacher/student ratio varies from 24:1 to 28:1, although we have enough parent volunteers that there are usually other adults around. Honestly, when you get a bunch of kids with different ability levels together, ditch the whole "letter grade" system, encourage group learning environments and make the curriculum one which allows children to do assignments to their ability rather than to one "objective" standard, then yes, you can accomplish an education with the same basic resources any public school should have. Our kids have to take the testing just like everyone else, and they do well on it. The *only* "problem" our school had on the national testing was...attendance. That is, enough parents opted out of the generalized testing that it was a black mark...the only black mark. Funny, the kids are still learning. But the teachers give the assignments, and the general direction, but they do tailor their expectations to each kid. Removing the tyranny of graded assignments and placing instead actual *feedback* to kids and encouragement to learn and develop rather than 'get better grades' and suddenly you get a group of engaged kids who like helping each other out, like learning, and who don't have to be ability grouped, ostracized or otherwise isolated for being brighter than average OR slower than average. My daughter's school succeeded in making going to school "the reward"... so that they don't HAVE to punish people outrageously for missing. Most people just don't want to miss! I think most schools can be accommodating to some degree. Even if it's that once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to spend two weeks on safari, they'll usually work to concoct some sort of project the child can do resulting from the trip itself, and that plus a little makeup work will eliminate the problem. But handling a situation where the child is regularly missing as much school as the OP proposed is a really different situation, in my opinion at least. My opinion is that a bright kid whose parents feel the kid needs to be out of school once a week to get a decent education is a symptom of a school that is failing to provide an adequate education. The irony is that getting kids engaged in learning just does not have to be all that hard. School does not have to be boring. It does not have to be "paced to the slowest learner in the class". It does not have to be demoralizing for kids who take longer to learn. It does not have to be centered on getting grades--it should be centered on learning! I got great grades all the way through high school--it taught me to cram for tests but little else. I'm great at cramming for tests, btw... but have lousy retention of what I learn. My daughter on the other hand tends to really internalize what she learns, has great study habits, etc. Just this year, in 5th grade, she gets points on her assignments for the first time. And she is so into the extra credit for it's own sake that she often comes back with a zillion extra points on her paper and it's irrelevant to her. She's so not about the numbers. To me, a bored bright child is as scary or scarier than a child who is struggling to learn. Both are fully capable of acting out in frustration and disrupting the environment for other kids. Why not use curriculums that actually keep both kids from getting too frustrated? Curriculums that keep them learning? Jenrose Thank you so much for your posts. Your school situation sounds ideal. You are hitting on exactly the issues we have. It is not that we want more homework for our child, or want her pulled from her classroom, or pulled out of social time for more academics... we want her to learn how to meet challenges, how to learn, how to be persistent when she DOESN'T know the answer. She's not learning this at school, b/c she usually knows the answer. The worksheets she brings home are fodder for our pre-schooler, not a challenge for our 2nd grader... What state are you in? Vicki |
#130
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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Jenrose wrote: Um, she *is* in a public school. Then I would prepare to see the school's flexibility whittled away, little by little. (Sorry to be cynical, but I'm afraid I'm not all that optimistic on this front.) I think our public school system is quite good and I am happy with the education my children are getting there, but I keep seeing more and more flexibility taken away by both state and national initiatives. Actually, the school itself is getting whittled away. We lost a teacher this year due to funding cuts, so we're running 5 grades with 4 teachers plus an assistant for math hired by the PTA directly through draconian fundraising. That is, they lined parents up at the plasma center and had them donate plasma to raise money for the schools. Voluntarily of course, but I'm not kidding when I say that parents actually pay for this school in blood... But a nearby charter school is doing okay, with a similar concept and fewer "hurdles" to jump... a lot of kids who would have been at our school go there now because the parents are tired of the funding crisis. Why is ours in funding crisis and theirs not? Hard to say, but the different requirements for charter vs. regular schools might be one factor. snip This leaves kindergarteners with eight hours of homework and caffeine jitters at the age of five, carried to the logical conclusion. I don't want to even think about preschool. I hyperbolize, but you get the point. Absolutely. This is a very common attitude and getting more and more common. Makes me crazy and it won't happen to my kids, period. It was very important for us to find a program that let kids be kids without the heavy homework load. She has gone from no homework in kindergarten to not quite an hour in 5th grade on a "heavy" night, and never not been able to get her homework done working no more than 10 min x grade level every night. Thus, with reasonable, age-appropriate expectations (and how many emotionally average academically gifted kids get loaded with age inappropriate amounts of work when their "enrichments" pile on top of a normal workload....) she's actually developed study skills which seem rare in kids that bright. I agree with you 100 percent. I just think that public schools like this are going to get more and more rare in the current legislative environment. But the point is that *all* these programs operate with the same budgets the neighborhood schools get, per pupil. This is a red herring in most cases. The big player in funding for public schools is often how many "special" cases the school has to deal with (e.g., language barriers, severe learning disabilities, etc.). Schools that don't have to deal with these issues effectively have much more money to spend on the population at large. There is a special needs program and ESL program in the building, not affiliated with our school, but affiliated with the building as a whole. And special needs programs do get extra funding, though never enough. There are some who argue that this kind of program "saps" the neighborhood schools of the brightest kids. In my experience, neighborhood schools with a "standard" normal curriculum rarely make enough use of the brightest kids to justify keeping them. Except that the brightest kids drive up the test scores, and with test scores becoming so all-fired important, lowered test scores have very real impacts on all the students in a school. There's also a secondary effect--the brightest kids generally bring more affluent and more involved *parents* to the table, which translates into more money for the school (through the PTA) and all sorts of other advantages. We've got some very well off families at the school, but our area is INCREDIBLY depressed right now, economically (Oregon is still in a recession, whatever's going on elsewhere) and the labor market is only just now starting to ease a little. We're talking a lot of previously well-paid people out of work. That's part of our "flight" problem...people are leaving for Portland to get work, which is ironic, actually. We have a lot of low income families in the school. But yes, our parents are more involved. But local schools CAN get that kind of involvement if they structure things in such a way as to encourage it. What delights me about this program in particular is that it manages to provide an enriched learning environment for the same money to ALL kids at all ability levels. Isn't that how it *should* work? Shouldn't people be looking at taking this model out to the neighborhood schools? Absolutely. Programs that are working well should be looked at and their ideas co-opted wherever possible. However, I would be cautious about the money issue. If your school is really serving the full gamut of abilities on the same dollar, that's wonderful. Odds are, however, that it's not, nor is it likely coping with as high a percentage of the more difficult to educate children (extreme poverty, etc.). That's not to say that other schools shouldn't be taking a page from your school's book. From many of the things you've said, it sounds like there are a bunch of very valuable things that likely *would* help with no downside whatsoever. I'm just suggesting that sometimes the problem is a little more complicated than it first appears--and all these relatively recent legislative attempts towards accountability through testing and other "objective" standards are complicating the situation significantly. (I'm not against accountability per se, but I have a lot of heartburn with the way it's often implemented.) Yep. We are faced with the twit-head accounting too... our school is listed on the "bad" list for *one* issue--that our well-educated and involved parents tend to be very political and flat out refuse to allow their kids to do the testing. So we get less than 90% testing compliance and therefore dinged. It's kind of refreshing, actually. That is NOT part of our attrition problem. The economy and budget cuts are. Jenrose |
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