128 students suspended at Ind. school

nimue wrote:
Well, in NYC the public schools cannot mandate uniforms. Even if
we could, I don't know if I think they are such a good idea.

Really? I am aware of several public schools in NYC that have
mandated, well, if not uniforms, the closest thing to it.

Sounds like a charter school. I teach at a public school. We can
have uniforms, but we cannot require them. Kids can opt out, so
what's the point?

Sorry, no. Neither one is a charter school. Both are public schools
in marginal neighborhoods. And to the best of my knowledge, kids
cannot opt out in either school.

Which schools? This is news to me, sister. I think you may be mistaken. My
principal would love to have uniforms, but we don't because the kids can
opt out. So, which schools?

I'm not your sister. I certainly hope you don't address your students
with such disrespect when they disagree with you. But since you don't
seem to be familiar with the rules of the district where you claim to
be employed, here's NYC's policy on uniforms:

http://docs.nycenet.edu/docushare/ds...t-32/A-665.pdf

Please feel free to share it with your principal. Yes, kids can *opt
out* of the policy. But opting out does not mean just showing up
without the uniform.

I'm also curious. You focus on a single student who was sent home for
dress code violations when you believed she was dressed in an
appropriate manner. Have there not been any other dress code
violations at your school? Do you agree that students should not be
wearing, eg, visible thongs to school? Or do you believe that anything
goes? What if girls began coming to school in string bikinis, and boys
in (excuse the term) banana hammocks?

I also understand that the students at your school are quite
impoverished. (I assume that you teach in a high school since you make
reference to students commuting by subway. As you surely know, NYC
provides free school bus transportation to all students in grades K - 6
(IIRC) attending schools within their own boroughs who live more than a
mile from school. The Bureau of Student Transportation actually does
quite a good job.) Nonetheless, I'd be shocked to learn that clothing
deemed *inappropriate* for school is less expensive, or less readily
available to students, than inappropriate clothing.

Barbara

Oh, please. That is ridiculous. What would you do if your son came home
and
said, "I couldn't learn because there was a girl in a low cut blouse in
school today"? What would you tell him? These kids see baggy pants and
low-cut tops ALL THE TIME. The "distracting" images in videos sure don't
prevent them from learning the lyrics to rap songs. Trust me, your
daughter
can learn even if there is a boy in baggy pants in the classroom.

Most likely a 14-18 year old boy wouldnt say that to his parent outright but
a girl with a low cut enough shirt would be stared at all day. The dress
code at one of the local schools had in their dress code that a shirts
collar must be no lower than their armpits. It was explained that it is
embarassing to both the teacher and the students. Baggy pants are not
allowed in the Amery schools because the students could trip on them. So it
is a saftey issue. Actualy I suspect how it is worded that a pair of pants
that fit well in the waist but not in the legs would not be allowed either..
unless they where rolled up I am guessing.

Tori

wrote in message
ups.com...

nimue wrote:
wrote:
snip

But, in any case, you presumably are aware of the dress code. If a
denim skirt isn't permitted, presumably some other sort of skirt of
acceptable legnth is permitted. (In a fabric that would be far cooler
than denim.)

Oh, no, a denim skirt is fine. The skirt's length created the issue. It
ended just above her knee and was completely appropriate, imo. In the
opinion of the dean, the girl looked inappropriate. It's this kind of
thing
that drives me crazy. There are teachers and administrators who wear
shorter skirts. This just turned into a bullying opportunity for the
dean
and I was damned if I was going to see this kid -- who looked fine --
miss
her class.

Well, it seems to me that the ISSUE here wasn't the specifics of the
dress code (though if the code forbids skirts above the knee and tank
tops of any description, it should have been clear to the girl in
question), but the way the dean chose to enforce it. Bullying and
humiliation are NOT part of any sort of dress code enforcement.

It sounds like the fact that the principle was enforcing the dress code is
considered bullying and humiliation by OP. There was nothing in the post
that demonstrated actual bullying nor humiliation other than he sent the
girl home.

"nimue" wrote in message
news
wrote:
snip

But, in any case, you presumably are aware of the dress code. If a
denim skirt isn't permitted, presumably some other sort of skirt of
acceptable legnth is permitted. (In a fabric that would be far cooler
than denim.)

Oh, no, a denim skirt is fine. The skirt's length created the issue. It
ended just above her knee and was completely appropriate, imo. In the
opinion of the dean, the girl looked inappropriate. It's this kind of
thing
that drives me crazy. There are teachers and administrators who wear
shorter skirts.

Then the teachers ought to be following their own dress code, not the other
way around.

nimue wrote:

I
do not support anything that removes a kid from class. Give the kids
detention but do not remove them from class unless they have committed some
act of violence. Why don't people get this? Punishing kids by taking away
their time in class helps no one and hurts the kids and the school.

For what it's worth, I agree. When I was teaching, I had a couple of
kids cut school one day, and the punishment was 3 days suspension. I
always thought that was ridiculous - make them stay home, after they
skip school. So, they make a stupid choice, to skip school, (for which
I fully support not allowing them to make up missed tests, quizzes or
homework due during the skipped day), so then they are punished by not
allowing them to learn, take tests, etc for another three days. It
compounds the loss of learning.

I always thought ISS (In-school-suspension) where they study all day
was a far better punishment. The kids who were suspended just spent 3
days watching TV.

I know others here will crucify me for this, but one of the kids who
was suspended, missed a test in my class (during his suspension), and I
let him make it up. We were on the block scheduling at the time, so
the day he skipped school, he never even missed my class.

Cathy Weeks

"nimue" wrote in message
...
toypup wrote:
snip
She could have spent the money she spent on her illegal outfit for
something that conformed to the school rules. That she did not do
that and now must pay for another outfit is her problem.

That can be a big problem for a 14 year old in foster care, or a homeless
shelter. I would rather that she put her energy into class.

Is she in foster care or homeless? You're making excuses for her and you
don't even know the answer. If you did, you would say with authority that
she was in foster care or she was homeless.


However, I
did used to shop at Goodwill when we were poor and clothing was 25
cents a pound, literally. Maybe it's more now, but it can't be much
and I'm sure she could find appropriate clothing there.

I am in NYC, honey. Nothing is that cheap. Furthermore, maybe our kids
want to look cute, nice, as close to fashionable as they can get. They
can't
spend the money rich and middle-class kids can. It is not as easy to find
something that fits and makes the kid feel good at Goodwill as it is at
Old
Navy. They do the best they can and as I said and keep saying, this girl
looked fine.

If I never shopped at Old Navy, she doesn't have to, either. I shopped at
Goodwill and Kmart as a child. I was poor. I went to a gang-infested
school. That is no excuse to burn money (and then claim poverty). If she
can shop at Old Navy to look cute, she can conform to the dress code.

I think the dress code is unclear in my school and enforced by erratically
and often with great insensitivity, even cruelty. It's also pretty darn
sexist.

If they sent that many students home, it would be quite obvious if some
violators were allowed in class while others were sent home. It sounds like
the dress code was uniformly and strictly enforced, hence the number of
suspensions.

That said, the thing that bothers me the most is that some idiots
think it's okay for kids to miss class -- the whole reason they are in
school -- because someone thinks their outfit violates the dress code.
That
should not be a reason to pull a kid from class.

If they are breaking the dress code, it is fine to send them home. Like
another poster said, it is a distraction to have them in class. They are
disrupting the learning of many other students.

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Enforced how? Are kids sent home to change? Do they miss class if they
violate the dress code? That kind of enforcement is just downright stupid
in my book. Give 'em detention if you must, but keep them in class.

Yes, they are made to call the parents so they can go home to change. Seems
to not be a problem at our school. We don't have many students sent home
for dress code violations. It's just elementary school, mind you, but the
schools it feeds into also are quite strict. Last I heard, they don't have
problems, either. People just follow the rules. How hard is that? Like
another poster said, the principle was sending a message. Better to do it
at the beginning of the year to set the tone for the rest of the year.

nimue wrote:
toypup wrote:

It was against school rules. I have a hard time believing she didn't
know what the rules are.


I don't. I had never heard of the freaking dress code and I had worked
there nearly a year. The dress code materialized (no pun intended) in the
spring. I actually never saw a printed copy of it. Anyway, she looked
totally decent.


So .... we're supposed to believe that there was never ANY written
dress code distributed to students or parents or teachers. And then, in
the spring, they suddenly starting, without warning, sending kids home
for violating a dress code that they didn't even know existed. Right.

In our district, the dress code is on the middle school website and in
the student handbook. It's also on the high school website, but as
part of a pdf file of the whole student handbook, so it's a bitch to
download. But it IS in the HS student handbook. (Which all the
students are responsible for.) It was also discussed at all three of
the orientation sessions that we and/or our daughter attended. (One in
the spring when she was signing up for classes, one in late summer just
for students, and one in late summer for students and parents.)

In the school being discussed in the OP, a copy of the dress code was
sent home to all the parents before school started.

There was, and is, NO excuse for students not being aware of the dress
code at any school.

Now ... is there any excuse for deans embarrassing and traumatizing
students? No. In the case being discussed (where the outfit may well
have been borderline, if 'knee-legnth skirts' are permitted), a
reminder about the dress code, and a statement that she should not wear
that outfit again, should have been fine for a first offense. And if it
wasn't borderline, dealing with the problem in private, so she wouldn't
be humiliated in front of her peers would have been the obvious
solution.

Naomi

Look up Memphis City Schools-large, urban Pre K-12th grade district. They
went to a uniform code several years back. Yes, there is an opt-out
provision, but it's rarely used because it requires that the parent give a
documented, supported reason for the opt-out, not just "I don't want to do
it". It is definitely enforceable, and has many, many fewer grey areas than
the pre-existing dress code, because, well, either your shirt and pants are
an approved style and color, or they aren't.

--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Kindermusik
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/25/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)

If you have a uniform code, it's easy-the guidance counselor has uniforms
stocked in her office in various sizes, the child goes and gets a uniform,
and changes, and back to class before homeroom has even ended. In my inner
city school, usually the kids who didn't have uniforms were those who were
in financial need, and they'd be given a few uniforms to keep at home. Local
charity groups stock the uniform closet in schools, and, in my school at
least, volunteers would wash worn uniforms on a regular basis (any school
with special ed self-contained or preschool special ed will probably have a
washer and dryer to meet the regulations of such programs).

--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Kindermusik
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/25/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)