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#1
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Historical Perspectives on Corporal Punishment
There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of
not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#2
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
Can we start with YOU, LaVonne?
Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#3
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
Greegor wrote:
Can we start with YOU, LaVonne? Naw, you've had a much more colorful life. LaVonne is boring. Sameo Sameo. Grow up, get married, go to school, get a degree, get another one, raise a couple of daughters that turned out great, teach teachers. Booooring. I mean, sheeess....you can't make a blockbuster movie out of that kind of story. Now you on the other hand...... Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Do you believe that your childhood abuse was the cause of me having the opportunity to ask this question? Were you convicted in Iowa of one or was it two domestic violence violations? Or was it domestic abuse? Darn, I'll have to go look it up again unless you'll tell us. How much time did you spend in jail? Now LaVonne DOES get more interesting when she shares some of her knowledge. As she did below and you wish to hide from. Must drive you nuts to know that so many wish to be kind and gentle with children, eh? This stuff below is a "Keeper" in my book. 0:- Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#4
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
0:- wrote: Greegor wrote: Can we start with YOU, LaVonne? Naw, you've had a much more colorful life. LaVonne is boring. Sameo Sameo. Grow up, get married, go to school, get a degree, get another one, raise a couple of daughters that turned out great, teach teachers. Booooring. I mean, sheeess....you can't make a blockbuster movie out of that kind of story. Gee, my life is more boring that even I had imagined (grin)! Oh, I also have two dogs and two cats -- would that help towards the blockbuster movie? LaVonne Now you on the other hand...... Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Do you believe that your childhood abuse was the cause of me having the opportunity to ask this question? Were you convicted in Iowa of one or was it two domestic violence violations? Or was it domestic abuse? Darn, I'll have to go look it up again unless you'll tell us. How much time did you spend in jail? Now LaVonne DOES get more interesting when she shares some of her knowledge. As she did below and you wish to hide from. Must drive you nuts to know that so many wish to be kind and gentle with children, eh? This stuff below is a "Keeper" in my book. 0:- Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#5
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
Greegor,
Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries? Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information, and the more exposure the better. LaVonne Greegor wrote: Can we start with YOU, LaVonne? Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#6
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
Carlson LaVonne wrote:
Greegor, Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries? Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information, and the more exposure the better. LaVonne LaVonne I just don't understand how you could have won both a Master's and Doctorate. I mean you seem to miss the obvious. Whatever one might answer to such a question would be responded to with either "you don't have enough experience to have a say," or "your experience prejudices you." Isn't it cute when they do this? When that fails, it's "your lack knowledge," and "you are over-educated." The logic and ethical debating tactics of the spankers. snicker 0:-] Greegor wrote: Can we start with YOU, LaVonne? Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#7
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Historical Perspectives on Corporal Punishment
"Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Nothing in that about Plato being a non-CP parent. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. In the 14th and 15th centuries harsh punishment was a whipping (with an actual horse whip), blindings, brandings, and other things that in this day would be considered torture. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. History proved him wrong. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. Belief, unsupported by fact. Might as well believe in the tooth fairy. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. Many? How about the "vast majority" didn't didn't follow this advice? At least that would be accurate. Historically spanking was attached to religious belief's by such terms as "Spare the rod and spoil the child", and since the vast majority of people prior to the industrial revolution held strong religious convictions of one type or another they followed their religious teachings. By comparison, your theories are "put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries". Ron If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#8
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
0:- wrote: Carlson LaVonne wrote: Greegor, Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries? Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information, and the more exposure the better. LaVonne LaVonne I just don't understand how you could have won both a Master's and Doctorate. I mean you seem to miss the obvious. Lordy, did I miss it again? Whatever one might answer to such a question would be responded to with either "you don't have enough experience to have a say," or "your experience prejudices you." Isn't it cute when they do this? It really is cute, but it's also incredibly obvious, don't you think? When that fails, it's "your lack knowledge," and "you are over-educated." Well of course, if it's not a lack of experience, it's personal experience. If it's not a lack of knowledge, then it must be too much knowledge. But don't forget diversion. When one runs out of illogical strategies, there's always diversion. The logic and ethical debating tactics of the spankers. snicker Hey, I like them. Without them, we would have no way to point out the lack of logic in their debate strategies. By the way, have you seen Greegor's hypothesis and research design yet (grin)? This had to be one of the best, and I can't wait to see the study Greegor has designed. LaVonne 0:-] Greegor wrote: Can we start with YOU, LaVonne? Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#9
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Historical Perspectives on Corporal Punishment
Ron,
I was referring to views of childhood throughout history. When you talk about Plato and non-CP parenting, this is ridiculous. This term wasn't even around in 427-347 B.C. The point was the changing and conflicting views on the nature of children and how children best learn, grow, and develop. The idea of children who are born evil and who must be punished in order to break the will of the child has been contested in many forms for centuries. Plato believed children were born good. None of the theorists and philosophers I mentioned below have been "proven wrong." They were theorists and philosophers. Early childhood research did not exist at that time, so there was no research to replicate, and no way to prove them wrong. Many of their ideas are apparent when you walk into any early childhood classroom, which I do daily. Current research has incorporated the ideas of Plato (use of questioning and acceptance of response) Comenius (a teaching environment free of pain and fear), Pestalozzi (Children learn and respond best when individuals realize that children want to please. Punishment can create an aversion to learning). Portions of Froebel's kindergarten (child garden) are still around today. These individuals weren't tooth fairies. These individuals were pioneers in a kind and respectful view of children. When you walk into an early childhood classroom and hear a teacher questioning a children about their ideas, about why they think what they do, and why, this goes back to Plato. When you walk into an early childhood classroom and watch the teacher incorporate knowledge of the natural environment, think Rouseau. When you see a teacher use manipulatives to help children learn concepts of math, think Froebel. And when you see an early childhood teacher kindly using a picture book, think Comenius (Pictus Orbis). He wrote the first recorded picture book for children. We now have research that provides us with more concrete knowledge about how children best learn, grow, and develop. This did not exist in the centuries of the theorists and philosophers mentions below. But, it is absolutely fascinating to trace history, and realize that so much of what we now know had roots in those early philosophers. I don't know what you know about educational iconography. This is a visual description of how children have been viewed over the ages. You may find it interesting. I don't know why this struck such a nerve with you. I provided one reference, which you may find interesting. Here are three classics that you can probably acquire through Amazon, if you so desire. Wishey, B. ((1977). The child and the republic. Thge down of modern American child nurture. University of Pennsylvania Press. Aries,P. (I don't have the date). Centuries of childhood: A social history of family life. (translated from the French by Robert Baldick). This book is an absolute classic, hard to get anymore, but one of the best researched books on the history of children you will ever find. deMause, L. (1974). The history of childhood. Harper Torchbooks. The idea of kindness in teaching and parenting, and the idea of children's innate goodness has been around for centuries. This is what I hoped to illustrate in my post. LaVonne Ron wrote: "Carlson LaVonne" wrote in message ... There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Nothing in that about Plato being a non-CP parent. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. In the 14th and 15th centuries harsh punishment was a whipping (with an actual horse whip), blindings, brandings, and other things that in this day would be considered torture. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. History proved him wrong. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. Belief, unsupported by fact. Might as well believe in the tooth fairy. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. Many? How about the "vast majority" didn't didn't follow this advice? At least that would be accurate. Historically spanking was attached to religious belief's by such terms as "Spare the rod and spoil the child", and since the vast majority of people prior to the industrial revolution held strong religious convictions of one type or another they followed their religious teachings. By comparison, your theories are "put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries". Ron If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne |
#10
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DOES LAVONNE BELIEVE SHE WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD?
Carlson LaVonne wrote:
0:- wrote: Carlson LaVonne wrote: Greegor, Drives you nuts, doesn't it, that this idea of teaching and parenting with kindness, nonpunitiveness, and love has been around for centuries? Thanks for not cutting my post/attributes. This is good information, and the more exposure the better. LaVonne LaVonne I just don't understand how you could have won both a Master's and Doctorate. I mean you seem to miss the obvious. Lordy, did I miss it again? Whatever one might answer to such a question would be responded to with either "you don't have enough experience to have a say," or "your experience prejudices you." Isn't it cute when they do this? It really is cute, but it's also incredibly obvious, don't you think? When that fails, it's "your lack knowledge," and "you are over-educated." Well of course, if it's not a lack of experience, it's personal experience. If it's not a lack of knowledge, then it must be too much knowledge. But don't forget diversion. When one runs out of illogical strategies, there's always diversion. The logic and ethical debating tactics of the spankers. snicker Hey, I like them. Without them, we would have no way to point out the lack of logic in their debate strategies. By the way, have you seen Greegor's hypothesis and research design yet (grin)? This had to be one of the best, and I can't wait to see the study Greegor has designed. "It's in the mail?" "The dog ate it?" "Alina has a copy?" "Doan is proofreading it?" Nope. Nothing so far. 0:-] LaVonne 0:-] Greegor wrote: Can we start with YOU, LaVonne? Do you believe that you were abused as a child? Carlson LaVonne wrote: There are individuals on alt.parenting.spanking that claim the idea of not hitting children in the name of discipline is a new and radical idea by current dishonest and rabid cultists. Plato (427-347 B.C.) believed that early childhood was a time of plasticity and innate goodness. Comenius (1592-1670) railed against harsh discipline, and believed that children learn best in an environment free of fear. He advocated teaching with kindness and love. Pestalozzi (1746-1827) believed that children should be disciplined through their desire to please rather than through fear. He warned against using punishment to teach, fearing that children would develop an aversion to learning. Froebel (1782-1852) believed children learned best by being observed and gently guided, rather than by being punished. While many individuals in Europe during the Middle Ages and in Colonial America did not follow this advice, it is clear throughout history that the idea of teaching and parenting without fear, pain, and punishment is not an idea put forth by a few radical individuals in the 20th and 21st centuries. If anyone wants to trace the views of childhood throughout history to present day, Roopnarine, J. & Johnson, J. (2005). Approaches to early childhood education (4th edition). Merril Prentice Hall: New Jersey. There are several other excellent resources, all well researched, that I can provide if anyone is interested. LaVonne -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
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