school supplies!

I don't think I'd buy the kits, either, because I like to shop and buy
the particular eraser that I like or scissors or whatnot.

Which is exactly why if you buy something you don't want to pool it,
when I bought wipes, I didn't buy the cheapest, I bought the ones that
looked easiest to open, extract and close securely so they didn't dry
out, I also chose a brand that I knew didn't cause any irritation for DS
(I can't remember which child even was irritated by some brands of
wipes, they've probably grown out of it anyway and may never have been
bothered by it on their hands, I simply can't recall). So even though
the price difference was probably minimal, and the time spent short,
there still was some thought into me buying these specific wipes for DS,
only for him to dump them in a tray and apparently continue using the
exact same wipe system as used lower down, just the source of wipes
being the tray, not the store cupboard and the tray containing 10
individual packs rather than a bulk buy of Kirkland Signature.

An unrelated funny story, the first Costco I went to was the on in
Kirkland, and I wondered why everything was called Kirkland Signature, I
concluded it was either coincidence or Costco had such big sales they
could label everything by where it was being sold, so another Costco
would be something else signature! It was only when I went to California
and saw Kirkland Signature products there that I finally found out it
was because Costco started in Kirkland!

Cheers
Anne

Nope. Abundantly clear it's not a fundraiser.

Only if you read it, I do try to be quite diligent, but the number of
things that do come home as fundraisers that I'm not interested in, I
could easily overlook it, particularly if there were any photos. We've
been getting book fliers several times a year, it's only finally today
that there was a note saying exactly what happens with the money raised
- it's not even money raised, it's that the company gives a certain
number of books to the school - maybe that had been said before, but I
hadn't picked up on it. You get so much paperwork, I try to look at it
as I come out of school, but if it's in the kids bag I probably wouldn't
(the teachers have mostly been sending things home on the day we walk
in and pick up our pile!), then often when we get in one or other kid is
needing something or nagging for something, the bag often get's put
down, then if it happens to be DH who takes the child to school next, he
doesn't read them but will dump them somewhere where I may or may not
see them and if I'm processing them at a busy time most will go straight
in the recycling.

Cheers
Anne

Anne Rogers wrote:

Nope. Abundantly clear it's not a fundraiser.

Only if you read it, I do try to be quite diligent, but the number of
things that do come home as fundraisers that I'm not interested in, I
could easily overlook it, particularly if there were any photos.

No, believe me, it's made abundantly clear in several
different ways that it's not a fundraiser, and nothing about it
looks anything like a fundraiser. Folks might simply roundfile
everything that comes home in the Tuesday folder, but if they
did it would be a huge mistake as there are lots of important
things that are conveyed via that mechanism.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Anne Rogers wrote:

Nope. Abundantly clear it's not a fundraiser.

Only if you read it, I do try to be quite diligent, but the number of
things that do come home as fundraisers that I'm not interested in, I
could easily overlook it, particularly if there were any photos.

No, believe me, it's made abundantly clear in several
different ways that it's not a fundraiser, and nothing about it
looks anything like a fundraiser. Folks might simply roundfile
everything that comes home in the Tuesday folder, but if they
did it would be a huge mistake as there are lots of important
things that are conveyed via that mechanism.

They might be skeptical about the fact that it is not a fundraiser and they
might think they can get a better deal themselves. They might not want that
company making a profit off of them, even if the school makes nothing.

Rosalie B. wrote:

And in some cases it was lack of organization (In middle school I lost
8 Esterbrook pens in one year and I found out not too long ago that my
sister had similar problems-that was when we really had ink pens and
not ball points), and in some cases it was indifference. But you
cannot reasonably expect kids who have not got the tools they need to
just sit there while you instruct the other ones. So you do what
you can (as a teacher) to see that they all have what they need to do
the work.

Um, Rosalie. It's not reasonable to make the -other- children's parents
pay for it whether they like it or not, nor is the teacher "seeing to
it" they have what they need by simply demanding that the parents by 3
times what their children need, knowing that not all the class will
actually buy it.

I did supply my own Kleenex, but then I wasn't teaching sniffly 5 year
olds. And glue sticks (from experience) don't last very well once
they are opened. At one point money was so short, that we teachers
were buying our own mimeograph paper because each teacher was allotted
only so much paper. I didn't have textbooks to give out to my class
(because of the curriculum mostly), so I did a lot of hand-out
material. Fortunately, dh was employed and with two salaries I was
able to fill in the gaps.

Great. My father-in-law, who worked in this school district, says he
ordered all of this stuff out of his classroom budget for cheaper than
the parents could buy it, and commented there's a huge stack of kleenex
just sitting one of the storage areas that no one ever uses, so he used
to just go get his classroom kleenex from it and no one ever said
anything.

Michelle
Flutist

Rosalie B. schrieb:
Anne Rogers wrote:

You also have the pressure of being expected to understand, it isn't
always acceptable for adults to ask "silly" questions - and it can be

I am too old to be bothered by people thinking that I am asking silly
questions. And have been for a long time. I am every teacher's
nightmare.

Well, I don't fear asking stupid questions either, but asking questions
_all the time_ in a business meeting will make everyone feel
uncomfortable, besides there's usually a "time limit" meaning you can't
make a 1h appointment into a 2 or 3 hour appointment because there's
other people waiting.

When I was an exchange student, and even now still, people think,
because my english is fairly good, that I understand everything, but I
can't understand cultural references. I don't know what people mean when
they say "That annoying barney caracter" or "she's just like that chick
in bones". I can and do make jokes/ironic comments myself, which
sometimes confuse native speakers because they think I'm being serious
when in fact I am not. But what I'm trying to say is: even though I'm
fairly fluent in english and can communicate everyday things very well,
as soon as the subject turns very specific I do have difficulties
understanding.

For example: I spin and knit and my english vocabulary in both subjects
is fine. I can tell what a knit stitch is what a purl stitch is, I know
k2tog and ssk and yo, etc. Same with spinning. I know s-twist from
z-twist, worsted from woolen, I know top whorl spindles and low whorl
spindles and what a ratio on a spinning wheel means.
And now here's the funny part: because I've "learned" both spinning and
knitting from online sources I do not know the german terms for
everything. I know the important terms, like rechte Maschen and linke
Maschen and Umschlag, but other things I'm pretty lost when I look at
german knitting patterns. Same with spinning.
But with my sons hearing perception problems... Well, I know all the
german terms but translating the into english? I'm totally lost there.
Is is hearing perception? Is it auditive perception, is it even
perception or some other term?
So, when talking to someone about knitting I do fine, but the minute
they ask me about my sons problems I can't express myself well at all.
It would probably be the same when faced with tax systems and even with
the different education system.
Kindergarten. It's a german word that gets used in english, but it's a
totally different thing. In Germany Kindergarten is what kids go to from
3-6 years of age. Then they enter 1st grade at School. Some children go
to preschool between kindergarten and 1st grade. If they go to childcare
before they're three they go to a "Krippe" which translates to "crib"
but if I said "My daughter's finally in the crib" you'd think I'm
talking about her bed while I'm actually talking about childcare. When
you say "My 5 y.o. just entered Kindergarten" I'd be wondering why the
hell you waited two years, and if I say "Sam went to preschool for a
year before entering 1st grade" you'd be giving me strange looks because
you're not aware that the system's different. (Or maybe you wouldn't
because you know about the different systems, but I think you get what I
mean.)

Anyway. I should maybe write books instead of posting to newsgroups with
my inability to stop writing ;-)

cu
nicole

"Michelle J. Haines" wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

And in some cases it was lack of organization (In middle school I lost
8 Esterbrook pens in one year and I found out not too long ago that my
sister had similar problems-that was when we really had ink pens and
not ball points), and in some cases it was indifference. But you
cannot reasonably expect kids who have not got the tools they need to
just sit there while you instruct the other ones. So you do what
you can (as a teacher) to see that they all have what they need to do
the work.

Um, Rosalie. It's not reasonable to make the -other- children's parents
pay for it whether they like it or not, nor is the teacher "seeing to
it" they have what they need by simply demanding that the parents by 3
times what their children need, knowing that not all the class will
actually buy it.

It is fair in that those people who pay taxes don't want to pay them,
and try to get by as cheaply as they can. So they don't fund the
schools. If their taxes really supported the schools, they wouldn't
have to do that. OTOH I think that buying three times the amount of
school supplies is pretty cheap compared to higher taxes. And it does
actually only impact people who have children in school, and also have
the ability to buy the supplies instead of putting it all back on the
teachers.

I did supply my own Kleenex, but then I wasn't teaching sniffly 5 year
olds. And glue sticks (from experience) don't last very well once
they are opened. At one point money was so short, that we teachers
were buying our own mimeograph paper because each teacher was allotted
only so much paper. I didn't have textbooks to give out to my class
(because of the curriculum mostly), so I did a lot of hand-out
material. Fortunately, dh was employed and with two salaries I was
able to fill in the gaps.

Great. My father-in-law, who worked in this school district, says he
ordered all of this stuff out of his classroom budget for cheaper than
the parents could buy it, and commented there's a huge stack of kleenex
just sitting one of the storage areas that no one ever uses, so he used
to just go get his classroom kleenex from it and no one ever said
anything.

I have never been able to get over the outrage that was expressed when
I asked the kids to have a ruler with metric marks on it (in addition
to inches). I don't really understand why that was such a problem for
them. That was the only thing I asked for that wasn't a team
requirement. They acted like it took their mortgage payment or
something. And yet, they were OK with being required by the school to
buy a gym uniform from the school that cost $14.00

I also asked the kids to make a weather instrument and gave them
directions for various things that could be made from ordinary
household items. (This was 6th grade). One of the items was a rain
gauge, which in simplest form is some kind of container like a tin can
with straight sides, and a ruler or some markings on the side.

There were more complicated things (the choice was up to them) like
an anemometer which required a milk carton and some other items. One
mother was highly indignant because the pointer on this instrument was
made out of a "broom straw", and she "had to" go out and buy a broom
to get a broom straw and also she "had to" buy milk in a different
size carton than she usually got. I mean really!! She could have
used a toothpick or gotten a straw from a brush or any similar object.
Or she could have told him she didn't have those things, and to make
something else.

In article , Rosalie B. says...

"Michelle J. Haines" wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

And in some cases it was lack of organization (In middle school I lost
8 Esterbrook pens in one year and I found out not too long ago that my
sister had similar problems-that was when we really had ink pens and
not ball points), and in some cases it was indifference. But you
cannot reasonably expect kids who have not got the tools they need to
just sit there while you instruct the other ones. So you do what
you can (as a teacher) to see that they all have what they need to do
the work.

Um, Rosalie. It's not reasonable to make the -other- children's parents
pay for it whether they like it or not, nor is the teacher "seeing to
it" they have what they need by simply demanding that the parents by 3
times what their children need, knowing that not all the class will
actually buy it.

It is fair in that those people who pay taxes don't want to pay them,
and try to get by as cheaply as they can. So they don't fund the
schools. If their taxes really supported the schools, they wouldn't
have to do that. OTOH I think that buying three times the amount of
school supplies is pretty cheap compared to higher taxes. And it does
actually only impact people who have children in school, and also have
the ability to buy the supplies instead of putting it all back on the
teachers.

I did supply my own Kleenex, but then I wasn't teaching sniffly 5 year
olds. And glue sticks (from experience) don't last very well once
they are opened. At one point money was so short, that we teachers
were buying our own mimeograph paper because each teacher was allotted
only so much paper. I didn't have textbooks to give out to my class
(because of the curriculum mostly), so I did a lot of hand-out
material. Fortunately, dh was employed and with two salaries I was
able to fill in the gaps.

Great. My father-in-law, who worked in this school district, says he
ordered all of this stuff out of his classroom budget for cheaper than
the parents could buy it, and commented there's a huge stack of kleenex
just sitting one of the storage areas that no one ever uses, so he used
to just go get his classroom kleenex from it and no one ever said
anything.

I have never been able to get over the outrage that was expressed when
I asked the kids to have a ruler with metric marks on it (in addition
to inches). I don't really understand why that was such a problem for
them. That was the only thing I asked for that wasn't a team
requirement. They acted like it took their mortgage payment or
something. And yet, they were OK with being required by the school to
buy a gym uniform from the school that cost $14.00

I also asked the kids to make a weather instrument and gave them
directions for various things that could be made from ordinary
household items. (This was 6th grade). One of the items was a rain
gauge, which in simplest form is some kind of container like a tin can
with straight sides, and a ruler or some markings on the side.

There were more complicated things (the choice was up to them) like
an anemometer which required a milk carton and some other items. One
mother was highly indignant because the pointer on this instrument was
made out of a "broom straw", and she "had to" go out and buy a broom
to get a broom straw and also she "had to" buy milk in a different
size carton than she usually got. I mean really!! She could have
used a toothpick or gotten a straw from a brush or any similar object.
Or she could have told him she didn't have those things, and to make
something else.

Well, those kind of complaints are pretty familliar to me as being on the Cub
Scout committee it seems every little item or the yearly fee or fee for campling
trip was objected to as something that will break the families' banks even
though every effort was made to do things on the cheap. But, in the end, the
five or ten dollars, or fourty dollar yearly fee would come in.

Where I *did* have complaints and had sympathy with other parents' complaints
was the short lead times that schools and activities like Scouts sometimes give
parents. If a child comes home even as far ahead as a Monday night with a
homework project due Friday that calls for a different size milk carton than
usually bought in that household, that can mean an extra grocery trip which
impacts the household evenings where meals have to be served, activities have to
be attended, bedtimes observed, etc. etc. There seemed to be an assumption of
an SAH parent who can run errands any given day.

This is one reason why I took up the Cub Scout newsletter - to get all the
information out at least 10 days ahead of the Pack Night meetings, and *all* the
information out (as a Tiger mom new to Scouts I was told "but everyone already
knows that because we do it that way every year ..").

So consider if sometimes the problem is more in the timing of the requirements
than the actual dollar costs.

Banty

Banty wrote:

So consider if sometimes the problem is more in the timing of the requirements
than the actual dollar costs.

Timing is definitely an issue, but I think some of it
just comes down to the fact that some people will trade money
for convenience and others will trade convenience for money.
Some would prefer for all the costs to be bundled and to pay
one fee and be done with it. Others want the costs spread
out or would prefer to get their own (either for control or
because they think they can get a better deal). People just
have different preferences, so it's darned hard to satisfy
all (or even most) of them. Everyone would like enough lead
time, of course, but even with lead time you're not going to
satisfy everyone.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:

So consider if sometimes the problem is more in the timing of the requirements
than the actual dollar costs.

Timing is definitely an issue, but I think some of it
just comes down to the fact that some people will trade money
for convenience and others will trade convenience for money.
Some would prefer for all the costs to be bundled and to pay
one fee and be done with it. Others want the costs spread
out or would prefer to get their own (either for control or
because they think they can get a better deal). People just
have different preferences, so it's darned hard to satisfy
all (or even most) of them. Everyone would like enough lead
time, of course, but even with lead time you're not going to
satisfy everyone.

But everyone likes lead time, or at least, nobody is hurt by lead time - no?
Without leaving enough lead time, to my mind even the first effort to try to
enable people to get what *the school* (or Scouts, or whoever) is requiring *of
parents* isn't being made.

I was more replying to Rosalie's post about incidentals that happen through the
school year. So often it seemed the lead time was being counted in three or
four days, when those three or four days for me, and probably other families
with all parents working, weren't very good days.

There's also sometimes this idea that everybody's household has certain things
because, well, it seems teachers' households do. One evening we had to scramble
for an ice cube! For a home experiment. Well, in our house ice cubes just
isn't this handy thing. We simply refrigerate our cold drinks, any ice cubes
remaining from entertaining probably had long sublimated in the freezer ;-)
Boughten ice is crushed, not a cube. So we went to neighbors, and seemed to
have found the evening when all our immediate neighbors were out. Good thing we
knew someone four houses down. But it took a good hour for us to find an ice
cube! Then there was the saga of pizza boxes. One teacher had pizza boxes
designated for the base of the school project, because they were just the right
size, were flat, and she planned to arrange them abutting in an array to show
off for the Parent Night. So it pretty much had to be a pizza box.

Well, we don't do pizza much as it's highly glycemic for me (I only get to eat
the topping). So I tried to get an empty pizza box from a local pizzeria.
Which they were willing to do - *after* they got all the orders from a line
because the teen at the counter wasn't sure what to do and the owner was busy
making the pizzas. Yes, I tried to pick the pizza box up on the way home from
work close to dinner time. But to do otherwise would mean missing a lunch
meeting or making an extra trip. So it was like, 45 minutes to get a pizza box.

So, not that these are big huge deals that I ever complained to the teacher
about. But sometimes I don't think teachers and the like realize what a parent
has to do to scramble up some specified supply even if they've made an effort to
require some common thing. Indeed, it would be the worst impacts because those
would be things required that very evening or the next day.

Banty