Kids are Worth It

I recently picked up the book "Kids are Worth I: Giving Your Child the
Gift of Inner Discipline" based on a recommendation (quite possibly
from this newsgroups, but I actually don't remember where). I have
read/skimmed a lot of it, and I like the philosophy, but I can't quite
figure out how to apply it in a lot of practical situations that seem
to come up, (especially with my 4yo).

For example, the book suggests giving "ownership" of the problem to
the child, but there are cases where the child's behavior causes a
problem for me and/or his brothers, but not for him, and I can't see
a logical/natural way to make it a problem for him without being
punitive.

Such as, 4yo refuses to get into the car or sit in his seat to get buckled.
I have a problem because I have somewhere I need to get (say, to pick
up his brothers after school). He doesn't have a problem, unless I get
angry, which I'd rather not have to do.

Is anyone who uses the methods from this book willing to discuss in more
detail how they make it work in practice?

Thanks,
--Robyn
..

For example, the book suggests giving "ownership" of the problem to
the child, but there are cases where the child's behavior causes a
problem for me and/or his brothers, but not for him, and I can't see
a logical/natural way to make it a problem for him without being
punitive.
(Didn't "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen..." take a similar approach?)
Sometimes it's really hard to avoid owning a problem, especially with
kids who place a premium on not doing what you want. It can require a
lot of creativity, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't always
manage. On the other hand it can be pretty effective when you can get
it to work.

Such as, 4yo refuses to get into the car or sit in his seat to get buckled.
I have a problem because I have somewhere I need to get (say, to pick
up his brothers after school). He doesn't have a problem, unless I get
angry, which I'd rather not have to do.
Could you
- not have enough time to give him [favorite in-vehicle toy] because you
spent so much time buckling him in? not have enough time to cue up
favorite music tape/CD? (even though you hate it :-)
- start a little earlier, and just have to sit in the boring old vehicle
in the boring old driveway instead of running around & playing (or
eating a snack or whatever) while waiting for brothers to show up?
(depends on your pick-up arrangements)
- start a little earlier, and explain why playtime was curtailed? (Not
clear to me that a 4yo could apply this lesson to tomorrow's behavior.)

In article ,
(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

I recently picked up the book "Kids are Worth I: Giving Your Child the
Gift of Inner Discipline" based on a recommendation (quite possibly
from this newsgroups, but I actually don't remember where). I have
read/skimmed a lot of it, and I like the philosophy, but I can't quite
figure out how to apply it in a lot of practical situations that seem
to come up, (especially with my 4yo).

For example, the book suggests giving "ownership" of the problem to
the child, but there are cases where the child's behavior causes a
problem for me and/or his brothers, but not for him, and I can't see
a logical/natural way to make it a problem for him without being
punitive.

Such as, 4yo refuses to get into the car or sit in his seat to get buckled.
I have a problem because I have somewhere I need to get (say, to pick
up his brothers after school). He doesn't have a problem, unless I get
angry, which I'd rather not have to do.

Is anyone who uses the methods from this book willing to discuss in more
detail how they make it work in practice?

Thanks,
--Robyn
.


I found it more useful to START with understanding who owned the
problem, and why. Some problems I clearly owned, others I was trying to
own but didn't have to. Where *I* owned the problem (as in the case of
needing to get somewhere to pick up a sibling, and the child not
cooperating with getting in the car) I would try to find a way to make
them own it, instead -- and that involved rewards and consequences that
were logical and that the child in question cared about.

That means I WAS sometimes punative. In the case of getting in the car,
for example, I tried hard to find something that made sense: "Since you
aren't willing to get in the car quickly and without arguing about it,
we have to start to leave 1/2 hour early. You'll be stuck sitting in
the car. If you can show that you can get in the car quickly and
without arguing about it by doing it three times in a row, we'll have
time to do (something the kid likes) before we leave to pick up your
brother." (Or if there was something fun to do when we got there, "If
you can get in the car quickly, we'll have time for x when we get there;
if you argue with me, I'll be too tired to do it.")

I continue to work on this stuff even now, and my kids are 19 and 22.
The 22 yo isn't living here any more, but the two 19 yos are, and I
STILL sometimes have to stop and figure out who owns which issues -- and
how to let go if it's something I don't WANT to own!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
dragonlady wrote:

Where *I* owned the problem (as in the case of
needing to get somewhere to pick up a sibling, and the child not
cooperating with getting in the car) I would try to find a way to make
them own it, instead -- and that involved rewards and consequences that
were logical and that the child in question cared about.

That means I WAS sometimes punative. In the case of getting in the car,
for example, I tried hard to find something that made sense: "Since you
aren't willing to get in the car quickly and without arguing about it,
we have to start to leave 1/2 hour early. You'll be stuck sitting in
the car. If you can show that you can get in the car quickly and
without arguing about it by doing it three times in a row, we'll have
time to do (something the kid likes) before we leave to pick up your
brother." (Or if there was something fun to do when we got there, "If
you can get in the car quickly, we'll have time for x when we get there;
if you argue with me, I'll be too tired to do it.")

This is the kind of thing I do now. The "Kids are Worth It" book seems
to be suggesting that such bribes/threats are never necessary. Their
reasons for wanting to avoid them make sense, but I just can't see how
to make it work in practice.

Having read a bit more of the book more thoroughly, it seems like their
approach to this would be to, indeed, get angry, and confront him about
it according to a formula they provide, which would come out something
like this:

"E, I'm frustrated! I think I should be able to get you into the car
in time to pick up the big boys without it being a big struggle every
time. You are climbing over the seat right now instead of sitting
still to get buckled, and you are making us late to pick up the big
boys, which isn't fair to them or their teacher. I need to know that I
can get you into the car quickly when we have to get somewhere at a
particular time."

Which is all very well and good, and I'm willing to give it a try,
but I'm not too optimistic about getting a useful response to that
from a 4yo. It's a good intro to the logical consequences I would
normally use in any case.

Thanks for your insights/experience,
--Robyn
..

Robyn Kozierok wrote:

SNIP

Having read a bit more of the book more thoroughly, it seems like
their
approach to this would be to, indeed, get angry, and confront him
about
it according to a formula they provide, which would come out
something
like this:

"E, I'm frustrated! I think I should be able to get you into the car
in time to pick up the big boys without it being a big struggle every
time. You are climbing over the seat right now instead of sitting
still to get buckled, and you are making us late to pick up the big
boys, which isn't fair to them or their teacher. I need to know that
I
can get you into the car quickly when we have to get somewhere at a
particular time."

Which is all very well and good, and I'm willing to give it a try,
but I'm not too optimistic about getting a useful response to that
from a 4yo.

I don't know that it's any consolation, but it wouldn't work with my
profoundly tween 10.5 year old, either. She needs things that affect
her directly (I try to connect them logically, if I at all can).

Frankly, we do a lot of bribing with television. It's more along the
lines of "If you can't get ready in the morning so that Dad can get out
the door on time, you'll (PARENT PICKS ONE) have to get up 15 minutes
earlier" (OR PARENT PICKS THE FOLLOWING COMBO INSTEAD) "we will have to
get out the the door earlier and you'll lose 15 minutes of TV in the
morning."

The first choice applies to situations where loitering and dawdling and
dragging one's feet are involved. The latter choice is predicated on
the fact that she'll say she is ready, then at the last moment, come up
with all sorts of things that she's "forgotten" to do, like put her
homework in her backpack.

Call me hopeless as a parent, but at least it works.

beeswing

It's a good intro to the logical consequences I would
normally use in any case.

Thanks for your insights/experience,
--Robyn
.

beeswing wrote:


The first choice applies to situations where loitering and dawdling and
dragging one's feet are involved. The latter choice is predicated on
the fact that she'll say she is ready, then at the last moment, come up
with all sorts of things that she's "forgotten" to do, like put her
homework in her backpack.


This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause
I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid
is out of bed, and out the door to school?

DS usually is up at 6:40, and ready to go at 7 -- in fact
we hold him back 'til 7:07 so he's not too early (he walks
to school with a friend -- school starts at 7:45). DD
leaves the house at 7:10 to catch a bus that shows up at
7:15 -- if she's taking a shower in the morning,
she'll have to be up at 6:30, otherwise 6:40 is fine. Of the
two, DD is far more likely to have a last minute forgotten-
til-now emergency, but they are limited to once or twice a
month.

We live a 5 minute walk from high school. It'll be interesting
to see how close they cut that when the time comes.

We willingly drive DD to school if she misses the bus, btw.
It costs $10, however, and she has yet to miss the bus.

Scott DD 11 and DS 9

Scott wrote:

This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause
I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid
is out of bed, and out the door to school?

My husband drops our daughter off at school, and I usually pick her up.
He wakes her up at 5:50 a.m., but it's because it usually takes her 15
to 20 minutes to actually pull herself out of bed. She does all her
get-ready stuff -- eats her breakfast, gets dressed, gathers her things
up (in theory!) -- and then usually has time to watch about 15 minutes
of television (something she likes to do). Then, my husband starts to
get her out the door about 6:50 a.m., though sometimes it takes up till
7 a.m. to actually leave, at which time he starts getting irritated.

This schedule will completely change, however, next year when she goes
to her new school.

beeswing

Robyn Kozierok wrote:
In article ,
dragonlady wrote:

Where *I* owned the problem (as in the case of
needing to get somewhere to pick up a sibling, and the child not
cooperating with getting in the car) I would try to find a way to make
them own it, instead -- and that involved rewards and consequences that
were logical and that the child in question cared about.

That means I WAS sometimes punative. In the case of getting in the car,
for example, I tried hard to find something that made sense: "Since you
aren't willing to get in the car quickly and without arguing about it,
we have to start to leave 1/2 hour early. You'll be stuck sitting in
the car. If you can show that you can get in the car quickly and
without arguing about it by doing it three times in a row, we'll have
time to do (something the kid likes) before we leave to pick up your
brother." (Or if there was something fun to do when we got there, "If
you can get in the car quickly, we'll have time for x when we get there;
if you argue with me, I'll be too tired to do it.")


This is the kind of thing I do now. The "Kids are Worth It" book seems
to be suggesting that such bribes/threats are never necessary. Their
reasons for wanting to avoid them make sense, but I just can't see how
to make it work in practice.

Having read a bit more of the book more thoroughly, it seems like their
approach to this would be to, indeed, get angry, and confront him about
it according to a formula they provide, which would come out something
like this:

"E, I'm frustrated! I think I should be able to get you into the car
in time to pick up the big boys without it being a big struggle every
time. You are climbing over the seat right now instead of sitting
still to get buckled, and you are making us late to pick up the big
boys, which isn't fair to them or their teacher. I need to know that I
can get you into the car quickly when we have to get somewhere at a
particular time."

Which is all very well and good, and I'm willing to give it a try,
but I'm not too optimistic about getting a useful response to that
from a 4yo. It's a good intro to the logical consequences I would
normally use in any case.

I don't recall mine at 4 (or 9 or 11) being very susceptible to
logical arguments, but a consistent denial of priviledges
because of stonewalling obstructionism worked wonders.

BTW, I can't stand the 'it isn't fair' argument. Things
aren't fair -- so what? Life isn't fair. So DD and DS
know not to use that line of reasoning on me Within
reason of course -- I don't give DD 9 chocolate cookes and
DS 2 because, well, that's not fair. Although DS wouldn't
complain -- he's not one for sweets, really (Talk about a
recessive gene!!)

Scott DD 11 and DS 9

On 2005-05-19, Scott wrote:
This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause
I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid
is out of bed, and out the door to school?

We get our 9-year-old out of bed at 7:15 in order to leave for school
at 8:00. I walk him to school (or ride the bike+trail-a-bike,
usually giving him the choice), and school starts at 8:20.

Some mornings he gets up early on his own, and uses the extra time to
get some computer time before school or to read a book he is engrossed
in. Other mornings we have trouble even getting him to get dressed
and eat some breakfast before it is time to leave for school.

------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
(Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB)
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Affiliations for identification only.

Scott wrote:

This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause
I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid
is out of bed, and out the door to school?

80 minutes. The kids get up raring to go at 6 I tell them to get their
shoes on at 7:10 and we out in the street at 7:20. But they are ages 2
and 4. The younger one has to be diapered and dressed by a parent, and
my husband and I get their breakfasts ready, make their lunches, etc.
while also doing all the stuff we need to get ready ourselves. Most of
that time needed because it is kind of a serial process of parents
getting one thing ready at a time.

Hopefully, this will be dramatically streamlined as the kids are able
to do more themselves. It has gotten a bit better now as my 4-year-old
dresses herself while I do other things, but she does require nagging.


We willingly drive DD to school if she misses the bus, btw.
It costs $10, however, and she has yet to miss the bus.



-Jan