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upset at nanny -- vent



 
 
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  #71  
Old February 11th 04, 05:43 PM
Anne Rogers
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Default upset at nanny -- vent

My salary is good - I'm a skilled computer professional. A lousy salary
would be 1200$ per month, but you would get reduction in the price of the
day care.

If I had to pay 60% of my salary in day care I might make other decisions. I
also have 5 weeks of paid (even a little higher paid) vacation a year. I
have extra 5 days for family caring (sick children, playing hooky like
today) so it's not so hard to be a full time working mom. BTW, my full time
is 35 hours with no paid lunch.


so more comparable to my husbands job, but with the tax bands his take
home pay is not very much more than if I worked full time.

Basically working is of little financial benefit for me, but I enjoy the
16 hours I do. I would enjoy working in the kind of job you do even more,
but its difficult to get that kind of thing part time. Though I have been
very fortunate, from the 1st May I will be working as a research
assistant, in the computer science department of Cambridge University,
this is a slight pay increase, but still of not much benefit, but it's a
step towards me completing my phd.

  #72  
Old February 11th 04, 05:45 PM
Circe
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Default Cultural differences (was: upset at nanny -- vent)

Clisby wrote:
Circe wrote:
Nina wrote:
"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...

"Nina" skrev i en meddelelse
...

It's not 'negro' in Danish - it's 'neger'. But it's the same
word.

The english translation of "neger' would be "black" not "negro"
as "negro" is basically
a euphemism for black. So calling black people "neger" is the
equivalent of calling them "black" here,
not "negro". Neger probably sounds like ******, which is a Bad
Word.

You are right - I checked my vocabulary - it's 'black'. Was negro
a bad word 35 years ago?

No, negro was then standard usage. It changes.

Er, 35 years ago, I was 4 years old. I'm reasonably sure that
Negro was in disfavor by then. I believe "colored" was actually
the favored term by that time.


I think you have it backward - at least, for where I grew up, in
S.C. and Mississippi. "Colored" had been around for a long time -
that's the term my parents (now in their 70s) had used all their lives.
The NAACP is almost 100 years old, after all. I'm pretty sure "Negro"
was more a '40s and '50s successor to "colored" - when I was growing
up, the word "Negro" came with the implication the person saying it
wasn't Southern.

That's interesting. I'd have guessed that in California (where I grew up),
the term in favor by the late '60s or early '70s would have been neither
colored nor Negro, but black. Certainly, when I was 8 (1972 or thereabouts),
I had a neighbor friend who was black and we said she was "black", not
Negro, not colored. (Of course, there were some kids in the neighborhood who
called me a deregatory term I'll leave to your imagination as well.)

I was thinking, however, that colored was considered a less offensive term
than Negro first, since blacks themselves used the term (as in the NAACP).
I'll admit, my regionalism may be showing!

That said, Negro was *always* a word with negative implications
because it was coined and used at a time when black people were
considered so inferior in the US that it was okay to enslave them.
For obvious reasons, most people in the US now want to dissociate
themselves from that term and all its baggage.


I'm not sure I'd say "Negro" was coined - it just means black.


I disagree for the simple reason that Negro is *never* used to define the
color of objects in English. It just isn't. The *only* use of the word is to
describe people. That makes it a word with implications that the word
"white"--and by extension "black"--don't have.

Certainly, in slave-holding times, the term for blacks was Negro (or a much
ruder variation thereof). IMO, that means it was, by definition, not a
value-neutral word.

And
I disagree that it always had negative connotations - at least not
in the way I think you mean. When I was a child, my parents would
consider a person calling himself/herself a "Negro" to be an outsider,
almost a radical - like someone leading a voting rights drive, for

example.
To them, it was a negative term - I doubt that it was to the people who
used it to refer to themselves. (I'm sure Malcolm X considered it a
negative term, but that's another story.)

That's very interesting. I really had no idea. Perhaps this was a bit like
the gay movement appropriating the word "queer", however?

See, Tine, we've got cultural differences even *within* the US!
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [23 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman


  #73  
Old February 11th 04, 06:08 PM
Tine Andersen
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Default Cultural differences (was: upset at nanny -- vent)


"Circe" skrev i en meddelelse
news:sZsWb.39183$QJ3.10241@fed1read04...

See, Tine, we've got cultural differences even *within* the US!


Well after all - you span quite an amount of sq km and you are 200 mill. We
are only 5 mill and also have cultural differences (we have a lot of small
islands). Why shouldn't you?

But I love hearing about it - I become wiser and wiser.

Tine, Denmark


  #74  
Old February 11th 04, 06:13 PM
Circe
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Default upset at nanny -- vent

iphigenia wrote:
There's a difference between saying things are different and
calling people lazy. I'm very, very, very offended at the
implication that I'm just lazy and that's why I stay at home with
my child, instead of working my ass off to pay someone else to do
so.


Well, I don't think Tine meant that she would think an American mother who
stayed home with her children was lazy, but that she'd think that of a
Danish woman who did so. That's because of the way her country's social
structure has developed, though.

Mind you, in Tine's country and much of Europe, it's entirely common for
women to be on maternity leave for almost a year after their babies are
born. The average work-week is shorter and most people get 6 weeks of paid
vacation. They have subsidized daycare to the extent that women *don't* have
to work their asses off to pay someone else to care for their children.
That's a *very* different model of working motherhood than we have in this
country.

Personally, however, I think there is something sad about a culture putting
so much pressure on women to work, particularly when their children are
young. I happen to be a working mother, but I have the luxury of working at
home now (something I didn't when my first two were babies/toddlers), and I
*love* having so much time with my kids as a result of my working situation.
If I had to work in an office and leave my children in a daycare center,
even under the conditions Tine describes, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do
it any longer. I've seen the other side, and I *want* the time with my kids.
They won't be kids forever, after all.

So I guess I'd like to see women everywhere having the freedom to *choose*
what sort of motherhood they want to do without any preconceptions or
prejudices about those choices.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [23 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman


  #75  
Old February 11th 04, 06:16 PM
Tine Andersen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default upset at nanny -- vent

"iphigenia" skrev i en meddelelse
news
Dawn Lawson wrote:

and imo, this is why NAmerican daycare is poorer than what Tine is
used to. We have to be as sensitive to the differences in culture as
Tine has been, if we are to continue asking her to spell out those
differences. She was ASKED what NAmericans do that she finds unusual
and shocking.


There's a difference between saying things are different and calling

people
lazy. I'm very, very, very offended at the implication that I'm just lazy
and that's why I stay at home with my child, instead of working my ass off
to pay someone else to do so.


Please! I'm not saying you were lazy. I'm saying that if I met a Dane
staying at home on her DH's salary without knowing anything else about her I
would probably consider her lazy. Or spoiled - or both. Here you are
supposed to support yourself earn a salary. It's a cultural thing - maybe a
reminiscence of the 70'ties.

You are not a Dane. Your conditions are very much different from what they
would be here. We have different history and culture. What is considered
lazy, rude, nice behavior, dangerous, insert your favorite term here is
very different from country to country.

The whole discussion started when I said I often was (forgot the term I
used) suprised? by you. But your culture is your culture and you are
perfectly entitled to do as you please - as I am.

Tine, Denmark


  #76  
Old February 11th 04, 06:17 PM
Tine Andersen
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Posts: n/a
Default upset at nanny -- vent

"Anne Rogers" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Basically working is of little financial benefit for me, but I enjoy the
16 hours I do. I would enjoy working in the kind of job you do even more,
but its difficult to get that kind of thing part time. Though I have been
very fortunate, from the 1st May I will be working as a research
assistant, in the computer science department of Cambridge University,
this is a slight pay increase, but still of not much benefit, but it's a
step towards me completing my phd.


That sounds SO interesting - I did that for some years as well. Lousy pay
but very challeging (sp?).

Best of luck to you, Anne.

Tine, Denmark


  #77  
Old February 11th 04, 06:23 PM
Circe
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Posts: n/a
Default upset at nanny -- vent

Tine Andersen wrote:
Please! I'm not saying you were lazy. I'm saying that if I met a
Dane staying at home on her DH's salary without knowing anything
else about her I would probably consider her lazy. Or spoiled - or
both. Here you are supposed to support yourself earn a salary. It's
a cultural thing - maybe a reminiscence of the 70'ties.

Don't you find it a bit illogical, though, that staying home and raising
your own children is *not* (in your country) considered "supporting
yourself" or working but if you work in a daycare center taking care of
other people's children, it is? I just find it silly to consider raising a
kid a "job" as long as the kids aren't your own!

I'm a working mother, so I'm certainly not *opposed* to mothers who work. I
truly don't believe I'm well suited to full-time motherhood, in any event.
But I think *some* women are very well suited to full-time motherhood, and
I'm sure they exist in Denmark as well as in the States. Surely the
*fairest* cultural system is one that allows women (and men, I hasten to
add!) to make the choices that best suit their personalities, lifestyles,
and family structures without being subjected to social stigma based on
those choices.

The whole discussion started when I said I often was (forgot the
term I used) suprised? by you. But your culture is your culture and
you are perfectly entitled to do as you please - as I am.

But wouldn't it be even nicer is a Danish parent could stay home with
his/her children without having people think him/her lazy or spoiled?

I'm not suggesting *you* can change your culture single-handedly, mind you.
I just like the idea of personal freedom!
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [23 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman


  #78  
Old February 11th 04, 06:24 PM
Tine Andersen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default upset at nanny -- vent


"Circe" skrev i en meddelelse
news:8ntWb.39185$QJ3.1126@fed1read04...
iphigenia wrote:
There's a difference between saying things are different and
calling people lazy. I'm very, very, very offended at the
implication that I'm just lazy and that's why I stay at home with
my child, instead of working my ass off to pay someone else to do
so.


Well, I don't think Tine meant that she would think an American mother who
stayed home with her children was lazy, but that she'd think that of a
Danish woman who did so. That's because of the way her country's social
structure has developed, though.

Mind you, in Tine's country and much of Europe, it's entirely common for
women to be on maternity leave for almost a year after their babies are
born. The average work-week is shorter and most people get 6 weeks of paid
vacation. They have subsidized daycare to the extent that women *don't*

have
to work their asses off to pay someone else to care for their children.
That's a *very* different model of working motherhood than we have in this
country.


Very wisely put. I wish I could have done that. Maybe it works better when
it comes from you, though :-)

Personally, however, I think there is something sad about a culture

putting
so much pressure on women to work, particularly when their children are
young. I happen to be a working mother, but I have the luxury of working

at
home now (something I didn't when my first two were babies/toddlers), and

I
*love* having so much time with my kids as a result of my working

situation.
If I had to work in an office and leave my children in a daycare center,
even under the conditions Tine describes, I'm not sure I'd be willing to

do
it any longer. I've seen the other side, and I *want* the time with my

kids.
They won't be kids forever, after all.


One generation back - or maybe two - we had the choice here as well. I
remember the shock (see Dawn: I can do it now) it was to me at age 26-27
when I realized that I couldn't just find myself a DH to support me and live
the life my mom did. I would forever be responsible for myself (and my kids)
personally and echonomically. It changed very quickly during the 70'ies and
80'ies.

Tine, Denmark


  #79  
Old February 11th 04, 06:38 PM
Tine Andersen
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Posts: n/a
Default upset at nanny -- vent

"Circe" skrev i en meddelelse
news:TwtWb.39186$QJ3.23083@fed1read04...
Tine Andersen wrote:
Please! I'm not saying you were lazy. I'm saying that if I met a
Dane staying at home on her DH's salary without knowing anything
else about her I would probably consider her lazy. Or spoiled - or
both. Here you are supposed to support yourself earn a salary. It's
a cultural thing - maybe a reminiscence of the 70'ties.

Don't you find it a bit illogical, though, that staying home and raising
your own children is *not* (in your country) considered "supporting
yourself" or working but if you work in a daycare center taking care of
other people's children, it is? I just find it silly to consider raising a
kid a "job" as long as the kids aren't your own!


I may have used a wrong term. I meant 'being able to pay for housing and
food with money you provide yourself'. Her it's called a job if you are
paid. I'm not saying I wouldn't like it otherwise - I'm just completely
neutral telling about another culture.

I'm a working mother, so I'm certainly not *opposed* to mothers who work.

I
truly don't believe I'm well suited to full-time motherhood, in any event.
But I think *some* women are very well suited to full-time motherhood, and
I'm sure they exist in Denmark as well as in the States. Surely the
*fairest* cultural system is one that allows women (and men, I hasten to
add!) to make the choices that best suit their personalities, lifestyles,
and family structures without being subjected to social stigma based on
those choices.


You are right that some women are very good at being full time mothers.
Sometimes I envy them. Especially their patience :-) I would like a 'citizen
salary' system where you were entitled to an amount of money - enough to
live on. Or a 'paid leave of absence' system (we used to have that for each
child, but the pay was very low so not many could afford it).

But all cultures are different. It's a package - you can't have part of it
(well, you can but only within certain limits). If it was too obnoxious to
me I'd have to move somewhere else, but I've sort of gotten used to it over
the last 39 years (spent 5 in NYC, actually).

Tine, Denmark


  #80  
Old February 11th 04, 07:35 PM
PattyMomVA
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Default upset at nanny -- vent

"Dawn Lawson" wrote in message
news:FQrWb.462164$JQ1.333434@pd7tw1no... AND I snipped!

She was ASKED what NAmericans do that she finds unusual
and shocking.


Yes, that was me who asked. I was curious. It's been an interesting thread
to read. Thanks, Tine, for answering honestly.

-Patty, mom to Corinne (5.75y) and Nathan (3.5y)
and stepmom to Victoria (13.5y)


 




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