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Feeling a big anxious about induction vs. c-section



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 20th 05, 10:10 PM
Circe
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"Joybelle" wrote in message
...
It is excellent advice, and I feel "armed" now, so to speak.

And there's nothing more dangerous than an armed woman in the third
trimester of pregnancy g...
--
Be well, Barbara (just lightening the mood a litt!e)


  #22  
Old September 20th 05, 10:11 PM
Joybelle
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"Circe" wrote in message
news:gyXXe.24204$sx2.1882@fed1read02...

Larry, you haven't been following Joy's pregnancy very closely, but her

baby
clearly HAS spina bifida, along with hydrocephalus. Multiple ultrasounds
have confirmed it (I think it was initially diagnosed around

mid-pregnancy),
and Joy has seen many specialists throughout her pregnancy. I think it's
pretty safe to say that the degree of spina bifida is well known at this
point. The last thing she needs is to see any more!


Gotta agree.

Finally, I am *really* suspicious about the induction talk. If they
think that it is safe to birth vaginally rather than by c-section,
what possible advantage could there be to induction? I would ask for
study results that show that induction provides better outcomes. I
would doubt that they can produce them. I might even ask Ericka to
see if she could find any information on vaginally birthing spina bifida
babies.


Yes, this is where I'm confused, too. Given that induction tends to

produce
more likelihood of uterine hyperstimulation and thereby produces greater
risk of fetal distress, you'd think inducing would be a bad idea. I'm
suspecting that it has something to do with the hydrocephalus (the longer
the baby stay in, the greater the likelihood of true CPD caused by the
hydrocephalus), but that's only a guess.


I do think the hydrocephalus may be a bit of a factor (but at this point it
isn't-baby is measuring up consistently 7days behind and the head is
measuring up along with that), but I did have some lowering of my amniotic
fluid index. That's when I was told I wouldn't be allowed to go to 40
weeks. I'm finding that I'm fine with the idea of a vaginal birth if I go
into labor, and I'm fine with a c-section if it's indicated I need one, but
I'm not very fine with the idea of an induction. The AFI did go up last
time, so I have to think that gives me some bargaining room.


--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005


  #23  
Old September 20th 05, 10:23 PM
Joybelle
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"Welches" wrote in message
...

Really I think it's okay. A friend's child was born by normal delivery who
had spina bifida. They did know before hand, but couldn't tell how bad she
was. I think she's just got leg problems now, but they had no idea how bad
it was going to be-they were talking about what stage the ventilator would
be turned off before the birth. She was a big baby too-nearly 10lb, I

think.
She's a gorgeous child too. Smiley and so happy. The family say she's such

a
gift to them.


Thank you, Debbie! That is a very good success story! I've been hanging
out on a support board for sb, and it seems some have vag births and some
have c-sections. It's just the whole, "what is right for my baby!!" thing
going on, and I think I'm panicking a little.
--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005


  #24  
Old September 20th 05, 10:29 PM
Joybelle
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"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
...
Hugs Joybelle.

The problem here is that you'll never really know the correct answer ahead
of time. You have additional risk factors that most people don't have --
risk to your baby's lesion. I think you need to factor in every possible
issue -- baby's health, your recovery, etc, and then make the best

decision
that you can. If you feel like you will blame your delivery choice if

your
baby is more or less damaged than you've been told, then perhaps you chose

a
planned c-section. Whatever choice you make, try not to beat yourself up
over it. You are in a very strange and specific situation -- this is not
just a normal pregnancy and a healthy baby. Hugs my friend.


Thank you very much, Jamie. It is such a weird place to be in. I think
it's really hitting me that I'm not going to have a "normal" baby or a
"normal" delivery, and I really am having to work out the kinks before we
get there. I'm sure there'll be plenty to work out afterward, also! I
think a lot of this stuff is re-surfacing due to my sister's birth and my
healthy little nephew. I'm so thrilled and ecstatic for her, but I'm sad
it's not going to be that way for us. Thanks for the hugs.


--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005


  #25  
Old September 20th 05, 10:32 PM
Todd Gastaldo
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JOYBELLE SQUATTED! COOL!

See the very end of this post.


"Circe" wrote in message
news:nxZXe.24213$sx2.19533@fed1read02...
"Todd Gastaldo" wrote in message
...
Barbara's (Circe's) phrase "true CPD caused by the hydrocephalus" is
meaningless when the obstetrician has the mother semisitting or dorsal -
closing the birth canal the "extra" up 30%.


Todd, I beg to differ. Hydrocephalus *can* result in a head circumference
that will not fit through any pelvis regardless of the mother's position
during pushing.


Joybelle quoted Barbara (Circe) back without correcting Barbara's
inference...

....so I repeat what I wrote in my reply to Barbara (Circe)...

I did not say hydrocephalus could NOT result in a head circumference that
will not fit through any pelvis regardless of the mother's position during
pushing.

I said: "Barbara's (Circe's) phrase 'true CPD caused by the hydrocephalus'
is meaningless when the obstetrician has the mother semisitting or dorsal -
closing the birth canal the 'extra' up 30%."

I stand by that statement in the context of the discussion - three
physicians saying a vaginal birth would be OK in Joybelle's case.

[I thank Barbara] though for making the point that if the hydrocephalus is
even too
big for a birth canal opened the "extra" up to 30% - then true cephalopelvic
disproportion has occurred.

Unfortunately, obstetricians still close birth canals the "extra" up to 30%
even as they warn women about cephalopelvic disproportion - even when babies
are suspected of hydrocephalus and a vaginal birth is to be attempted.

See Is this child abuse? - was Babies and 'CPD' - for new readers (and
chiros)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3906

Since Joy has had all of her babies unmedicated and has

had
three home births, I know she knows that she can push in any position she
likes.


New readers: There are no guarantees just because one births at home with a
homebirth midwife that one is going to be allowed and encouraged to open
one's birth canal the "extra" up to 30%.

Again see: Is this child abuse? - was Babies and 'CPD' - for new
readers (and chiros)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3906


That does not eliminate the possibility that her baby's
hydrocephalus
could progress to a point where the head would be too large to deliver
vaginally. Fortunately, it sounds like that is not the case!



Again I thank Barbara (Circe) for making the point that if the hydrocephalus
is even too
big for a birth canal opened the "extra" up to 30% - then true cephalopelvic
disproportion has occurred.

Joybelle replied:


Barbara,
I agree with you. The did say if the hydrocephalus was severe enough,
they'd definitely recommend a c-section due to CPD. It certainly makes sense
to me. I also think one of the doctors said something about if the hydro
was severe enough, and I tried a vaginal birth, I could be risking brain
damage to the baby. Wouldn't want to do that. Sounds like that isn't a
risk with this baby, though.


Yep. That's why I stand by my statement in response to Barbara. See above.

Joybelle, it is good that you are posting all of this to usenet. Assuming
the Google usenet archive stays up and running, years from now women you
don't even know will benefit from your having dealt with this.

Also, I wanted to clarify I've had only two homebirths. My first was in the
hospital and was medicated. And, yes, Todd, I am aware of pushing in the
optimal positions! My pelvis had plenty of room to birth my last two as I
was squatting in my living room.


COOL! I think this coming birth will go just fine.

As always, my public service announcement:

New readers: Joybelle squatted - many women squat - but you do NOT have to
squat to allow your birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30% at delivery.

Kneeling, hands-and-knees, knee-chest (lowering your chest to the bed from
hands-and-knees), crouching on one knee, standing, side-lying - there are
LOTS of birth positions that allow the birth canal to open the "extra" up to
30%.

Todd

  #26  
Old September 20th 05, 10:33 PM
Joybelle
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"Anne Rogers" wrote in message
...
Joy, I feel for you, it must be a hard decision, when you first posted

about
your baby's condition I did look up a little bit on line, from what I read
it seemed that c-section was only recommended if things were really severe
and the spinal cord was actually bulging. I recall something about
infections to the lesion, but it seemed that treating the infection rather
than preventing it was preferred. None of these was research results, but
that was the impression I got from what I read, I hope someone comes up

with
something more concrete. From your posts I haven't seen anything that

makes
induction a good idea, other than the distance you have to travel to the
hospital, in all honesty I think I'd be hanging on and waiting to go
naturally, knowing your baby is going to be having surgery and needing

extra
care, I'd be wanting to be as well a possible myself, which would mean no
c-section.


Thanks, Anne, for your reassurance! I'm glad I posted about the induction
because so far what's been said has validated how I've felt about an
induction. I want to have a vag birth, but without the induction. I'll
have to make that clearer to the doctors this next visit. My hubby has been
very supportive, but it's just other people like my mother and sister who
are giving me doubts.
--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005


  #27  
Old September 20th 05, 10:47 PM
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In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:

: My post was for "new readers and chiros" - not Joybelle necessarily.

That's the problem. Responses in a thread started by a regular poster
should remain directed to that poster, and remain OT and limited to
mostly to that poster's needs.

posts for "new readers and" any others should start a new thread.

You may post as you wish, just start a new thread when your post is
OT to or not directed to the OP.

Thanks,
Larry

  #29  
Old September 20th 05, 11:36 PM
Todd Gastaldo
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LARRY - IS THIS CHILD ABUSE?

I mentioned Larry McMahan when I asked Barbara (Circe) is she thinks
temporary baby asphyxiation is child abuse...

I wrote to Barbara:

No need to "beg" to differ with me - people differ with me all the time -
like for example the time that Ericka Kammerer pretended publicly -
ERRONEOUSLY - that childbirth educator Henci Goer warns that obstetricians
are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the
"extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck.

I welcome ALL differing; though obviously, I still think Ericka's (and
Henci's!) behavior bizarre - like Larry McMahan's notion that the massive
obstetric crimes are just standard "substandard" care and not crimes.

Speaking of obstetric crime...

Barbara, you snipped Dr. Morley's temporary baby asphyxiation experiment.

Here it is again:

"[T]he umbilical cord [is] immediately closed between finger and thumb...The
[fetal heart rate/FHR] will decelerate quickly to about 60 bpm...the color
will change from purple-pink (normal at birth) to pallid blue
(vaso-constriction and asphyxia.)...Few midwives or obstetricians will be
able to observe, without interference, a deep, prolonged FHR deceleration on
a non-breathing newborn for a period of 60 seconds.* Common sense will soon
release the finger and thumb."
http://www.cordclamping.com/acog-cp.htm

Barbara, do you think it is a crime for obstetricians to temporarily
asphyxiate babies to demonstrate to themselves that they should not
PERMANENTLY asphyxiate umbilical cord oxygen and rob babies of up to 50% of
their blood volume?

Or do we differ on that point too?


Larry McMahan replied:

In misc.kids.pregnancy wrote:
: In misc.kids.pregnancy Todd Gastaldo wrote:

: : My post was for "new readers and chiros" - not Joybelle necessarily.

: That's the problem. Responses in a thread started by a regular poster
: should remain directed to that poster, and remain OT and limited to
: mostly to that poster's needs.


Larry,

There is no problem except your attempted use of "netiquette" concerns to
cover-up your embarrassment at euphemizing mass child abuse by MDs as
standard "substandard" care.

Law enforcement is looking the other way - babies be damned - and you are
pretending that means that no crime is occurring.

When mass child abuse is suspected - EVERYONE hears about it - everyone has
a chance to PREVENT it - that's what I would want if I was a child being
abused.

By creating a new subject line, everyone reading the thread instantly knew
there was a change.

Larry, you are publicly pretending otherwise - just like you are publicly
pretending that obstetricians are only practicing standard "substandard"
care and not committing obvious crimes.


: posts for "new readers and" any others should start a new thread.

: You may post as you wish, just start a new thread when your post is
: OT to or not directed to the OP.

: Thanks,
: Larry

Oooh, and finally (didn't see this one until I hit send and saw the
list of ng's I was posting to. Grrrr)

Last piece of netiquitte is don't add newsgroups when when responding
to a post. Leave it in the orignal poster's newsgroup(s) only. You
can add the other newsgroups when you start your own thread.

TIA for being courteous.

Larry


Babies are being abused en masse - sometimes killed.

You are preaching "netiquette" as MDs perform mass child abuse.

It's about as useful to babies as you claiming that the mass child abuse is
standard "substandard" care.

I will add back the newsgroups you deleted.

Todd

  #30  
Old September 20th 05, 11:53 PM
Joybelle
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"Circe" wrote in message
news:nxZXe.24213$sx2.19533@fed1read02...
"Todd Gastaldo" wrote in message
...
Barbara's (Circe's) phrase "true CPD caused by the hydrocephalus" is
meaningless when the obstetrician has the mother semisitting or dorsal -
closing the birth canal the "extra" up 30%.


Todd, I beg to differ. Hydrocephalus *can* result in a head circumference
that will not fit through any pelvis regardless of the mother's position
during pushing. Since Joy has had all of her babies unmedicated and has

had
three home births, I know she knows that she can push in any position she
likes. That does not eliminate the possibility that her baby's

hydrocephalus
could progress to a point where the head would be too large to deliver
vaginally. Fortunately, it sounds like that is not the case!


Barbara,
I agree with you. The did say if the hydrocephalus was severe enough,
they'd definitely recommend a c-section due to CPD. It certainly makes sense
to me. I also think one of the doctors said something about if the hydro
was severe enough, and I tried a vaginal birth, I could be risking brain
damage to the baby. Wouldn't want to do that. Sounds like that isn't a
risk with this baby, though.

Also, I wanted to clarify I've had only two homebirths. My first was in the
hospital and was medicated. And, yes, Todd, I am aware of pushing in the
optimal positions! My pelvis had plenty of room to birth my last two as I
was squatting in my living room.


--
Joy

Rose 1-99
Iris 2-01
Spencer 3-03
# 4 Sept 2005


 




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