If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Does Kane9 claim spanking for Klebold and Harris caused Columbine?
"Kane" wrote in message om... On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:17:10 -0500, "bobb" wrote: "Doan" wrote in message ... Being stupid again! No where did the article mention anything about spanking! Doan On 16 May 2004, Kane wrote: After all, over 90% of all parents spank, right? Where was that cop with his nightstick when this family needed him, asks Droany. Where were the church members and the objects to beat suspended boys with, asks The Plant. Or if the families has been good families, like the folks in the 1800's who routinely fed opiates to their children to quite them and killed them thereby this wouldn't have happened, speculates the Spirea. From Fox News: Klebolds Say They Don't Need Forgiveness Sunday, May 16, 2004 NEW YORK - In their first interview since the Columbine High School (search) massacre, the parents of one of the killers said they feel no need be forgiven and didn't realize their son was beyond hope until after he was dead. "Dylan (Klebold) did not do this because of the way he was raised," Susan Klebold told columnist David Brooks (search) in Saturday's editions of The New York Times. "He did it in contradiction to the way he was raised." See complete story at.......... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120054,00.html It is silly to beleive, or even offer, the idea that spanking was the cause of this behavior. And I agree, no where has spanking been mentioned. I could even suspect these boys were never spanked. Sure you could, and the odds are? How about 10 to 1? 90% or so is the claim for spanking in the US. I did not say they were spanked or not. I offer the gamblers perspective, and I've lived a very successful life just paying attention to the odds. I, for instance, do NOT run red lights in my car, as I have it on good authority that the odds would be against me big time. I didn't spank my children for a very similar reason......just looked at prison populations and I read, among other things, a study by a Chicago school of social work researcher, Fischer, back in the 60's, that FAILED TO FIND AN UNSPANKED INMATE AMONG ALL PRISONERS, INCLUDING A RECORDS SEARCH AND SURVEY. Similar survey show that all prisoner chew gum, too. Such a common practice as spanking means nothing. Last week, if I told you drinking carbonated soda causes cancer I woulda been laughed outta here. But recent news reports conclude as such. Now, I have to wonder, who hasne't consumed carbonated soda? Is one soda more 'dangerous' than another, or is it just the carbonation? More junk science. I also cannot understand why it is necessary for the parents to apologize for the behaviors of their son. Given the beliefs about child rearing in this country, and the use of punishment so many of us are compulsively addicted to, I don't think they should apologize either. I think WE ALL SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO THEM for misleading them. YOU most of all. Me, because I've not worked hard enough to put an end, though I've spent half a lifetime on it, to abusive violent child rearing methods. If the victims are looking for answers they have a narrowed, unrealistic, view. The have the view of people in deep grief. I don't expect rational objectivity from greaving people. I know you do though, since you don't even believe they should or could benefit by seeking out grief counseling/therapy. This is what you get when people have not been able to resolve their grief. It's all about being a victim. For too long, children, and now those who have become adults, have been protected or misled about suffering losses. Life is necessairly a string of losses, very few of which call for retribution. Not a soul goes through life without a loss or even being treated unfairly. So what? Pick up the peices and move on. I could say that the parents missed an obvious red flag... the trench coat... but so did a lot of other people. Wearing a trenchcoat is not a sign of murderous intent. In that case it simply signified membership in an adolescent clique, something most of the kids in the school did, as is true in all our public schools. Membership does not equate with murderous intent, just teen angst. I'm of the opinon that individuality is not a bad thing.. but there are limits, and there must be a sense of understanding. The trench coat represented an enviornment of acceptance or attention the boys could not find elsewhere. That does NOT smack of individuality. I've known a few kids that were indiviuals in highschool, and were not definable by any group. Usually much more interesting people than the kids in cliques. And usually turned out better too. Often those of genius mentality, one way or another. While some kids dress and opt for out-landish' appearances, much of the time it is done in fun or fad Certain behaviors and dress are for no purpose other than something sinister or illgeal. Nonsense. WE, this society, creates a "villain" class. In fact it's my major bitch with religion. The schools foster this, or minimize the importance of it, and the kids carry it on. For instance, gang colors and their associated uniforms. Society, including the school officials, need to intervene when rules of expected conduct are broken. R R R R ....this from bobb, the foremost complainer about PCness in this ng. You are sooo stupid bobb. You just presented an argument for PCness yourself. There is a need to question and sometimes react. I'm of the opinon gangs membership could be limited merely by offering alternatives before kids become firmly entrenched. What alternatives, bobb? Counseling? How do you tempt the kid into NOT joining a gang? What incentives? Midnight basketball? I'm glad you asked the question. Look around... there is not a single program that confronts borderline kids. Park districts.. and even midnight basketball all cater to kids without behavioral problems. Break a rule and they toss you out. The street corner kids is left standing there... they are not encouraged to participate. No one wants to bother with kids who do not conform or fit in. Even with all the bad news about 'boot camps' listen to a majority of the kids.. most enjoyed the experience. They discovered social skills and true interpersonal relationships. My problem with these boot camps is the kids are released after serving their time.... even though many want to remain. I ask, released to what? The same conditions that sent them there in the first place. There is no mechanism to give a kid what he wants, or needs.... after state jusidiction expires. Oh, yeah, a lot of those kids enjoyed the out-doors, enjoyed being with animals, enjoyed their new friends... only to suffer another loss and continuing comfort. We also know many younger kids in juvenile detention screw up on purpose just to return to jail (youth homes). Standard policy in Illinois is not to return an offender to the same facility and sense of comfort. It seems there are answers ... but all are ignored. True, not all kids are as I suggest .. but it's not hard to find many who do. We also hear of kids crying out for families... but only after in custody. What about those not in custody? Who listens to them? For the most part... who even wants them around? I could go on and on... but we continue to lose kids within a system that uses a bandaide approach. How about....gasp!..... getting them away from dangerous parents and putting them with socially and mentally healthy.......double gasp!....foster parents? Sometimes, yes. If that's what the kid wants. There are many who would like to get away from their parents...but do want a choice of where they live. Not forced to live with stranger, or under conditions, that are less than favorable. State law prohibits kids from excercising those choices. If they have the ability, and most often choice, to get themselves in trouble, they should certainly have the ability, or at least the opportunity, to choose their living conditions. Columbine High school, in all probability, helped to set the stage for this disaster. As do many HS's in the country. Highschool life, the culture, is one of great stress. Children are ALLOWED to threaten and bully each other, and a society of elitism is encouraged. I was a HS jock so I know about it from the approved side..but saw what it cost the less popular and athletic kids. The largeness of high schools these days is slowly being recognized not only as instituions of poor learning... but also a feeding ground for the rampant distribution of drugs and anti-social cults. I went, in the 50's, to a magnet HS that had over 5,000 kids in it. We had "gangs" and I daresay more than a little weed floating around. This isn't a new phenomena. It's just larger today and more out in the open. We hid our little vices back then. There is little or no time to intereact with kids..or even to hear their calls for help when it is needed. I dunno bobb. The public has seen fit (PC, remember) to address these issues. But not in any meaninful way. As adults, it is not unusal that many perfer to work for the smaller, family oriented companies where there are more opportunties to contribute, and successes do not go unrecognized. Yep, it's the bigness. We never had bigness before. GM, GE, US Steel, are all start up companies. Obviously, with a dozen or so jr. schools feeding a single large high school the opportunity to participate in school acitivites such as football becomes extremely limited. HS athletic departments suffer from an imbalance of funding given to competative intramural sports at the expense of good ol' PE. Not enough is spent on getting all kids fit, and too much is spent on jocks. Many boys who were motivied through sports in the lower grade must be left out. Yep..because of intramural sports...no OTHER reason. The belief in "jock" is what does it. Not only jocks...the was merely an example. Other kids opt for the drama club, acting, year book, newspaper, cheer-leading. All activites are extremely limited to but a few kids out of thousands in attendance. There are no more or less kids left out in smaller schools. It's the same at all levels. Do your math... that's not an accurate statement. With rare exceptions. Now and then a school is set up to promote academics over competitive sports. They don't have the problems of Columbine...notice that? Those schools (even some that were once jock oriented and rife with violence) don't produce student violence one they leave the jock mindset. Those who make the team are, I would assume, the best of the best and flaunt their status.... and no doubt the school caters to their acheivements. Actually it's often who your daddy is. If he's powerful locally in politics and the economy you can bet an even better athlete will lose out to that son. Another false asumption but does a have ring of truth. I would suppose boys who are left out feel much like the person who gets fired from a job he really likes and enjoys. Yep. The jock mindset will produce that. . Read above.... there are others beside jocks that are left out. It's a bit hard to quarter-back the police and social workers but they, too, must admit failure. There are too many laws that keep kids in school, especially at the higher age groups, who probably have no business being there. It's become quite obvious, and always has been, some kids are in school merely for the social interaction or 'fun' as they might call it... not education.. and spend more time in detention than actual class. For that, I've always asked, why? Could it be that even Klebold and his group had no business in school? That may be the extreme but did anyone take the time to determine what was going on with those boys.... or to recognize the failings of the school? Could you babble a bit more? Sure.... The victims parents should be looking at all the attendant social problems... not merely the boy's parents. Nooooo....reallly? To demand an apology only from the parents excuses all others, including the system. Columbine is not isolated except for experiencing the extreme. Other schools are disrupted in much the same manner and have their own sorta trench coat mafias. As mcuh as CPS has fallen into dispair.... so have our schools. For much the same reasons. A lot of lies. A lot of unrealistic expectations (even the institutions sometimes buy into that). And stupid people pointing fingers at the non-problems and ignoring the real ones. No.. it's easy to point out the obvious and often superfluous.. and detract or ignore the root of the problem. There have been some out-standing school principles and teachers who stood up and took responsibility.... but there are not enough. Too many want to hide behind their paycheck. bobb People such as you, bobb. YOU are a typical "jock" mindset person. Your distain for women. Your racist bigotry. Your dismissal of social programs that work. bobb Nice chatting with you. Kane |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|