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  #1  
Old November 24th 03, 09:15 PM
Doan
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Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On 23 Nov 2003, Ignoramus22857 wrote:

In article , Doan wrote:
If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the 50's?
Why is it so low in Singapore?


Do not forget people, US crime rate is to a very large extent a "race
issue". 53% of the offenders were black and only 45% white in 1996,
according to the FBI statictics. That's even though blacks are a small
fraction of the population.

And how what percentage of professional sports are black? The issue is
not a "race issue". You have to look at other social factors. What is
the unemployment rate in black community, how many kids are born to
unwed mothers....

In 1950s, blacks were not liberated as much, did not have easy access
to weapons, etc. Liberation of them, while it had a lot of desirable
effects, unfortunately had a great effect on black crime rate.

HUH?

A lot of crimes, such as forcible rape, was not as well reported in
1950s, either.

As so did the lynching of blacks!

I strongly suspect that if you break crime down well, the difference
between 1950s and now would not be as huge for, say, white middle
class people.

You will be surprised on how many while middle class people are in jails
today - mostly because of drugs!

I would also be very surprised if trash criminals were grown in
nonviolent homes. I am too lazy to look for it, but my sense is that
these criminals grow up amongst drunk, drug abusing, wife beating,
child beating retards, and not paragons of respectful, attentive
methods of child rearing.

And what do these have to do with spanking?

Doan


  #2  
Old December 2nd 03, 01:15 AM
Kane
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Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:03:45 -0800, Doan wrote:


On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:03:50 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan wrote:

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are

essentially
the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that

parents
see.

Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the

alternatives
to
same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.


Doan's only argument, of course, will be asking you to provide
citations and data from peer reviewed studies that support:

lecturing;
scolding; *other* methods not working.

Wrong! I am asking for NON-CP alternatives, any non-cp alternative!


And when offered you lie.

If spanking is as bad as you and the anti-spanking zealotS claimed,

why
is it so hard to find an alternative that stood the same statistical
scrutiny???


Because what works does not have to studied. It is far too obvious.
The observations of child behavioralists for the past century has show
repeated the how punishment, and most especially CP is a dead end.

He has used the infamous logical fallacy for years here (to the

point
he has bored his opponents to the point of ignoring him) of
"slanting," that is picking only the evidence that supports his
argument (the declaration by Straus) and ignoring all mass of other
evidence that buries him.

Which are????


Read below the next comment.

You meant like Straus et al (1997) in which the "no-spank"
group turned out to be a group that were spanked???


And then you've gone on, taking his honesty, and lying, and cited that
this SPANKED group in fact showed worse behaviors. You are a liar,
Doan, which people are tired of humoring.

"We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood

that our
no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that

this is
the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for

children in
the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of

children whose
parents spank, but do so only infrequently."

Are you so blind? ;-)


Not in the least. Are you? In an obviosly punitive parent group, where
ALL actually spanked, as Strauss found, the LEAST SPANKED HAD THE BEST
BEHAVIOR.

How many times has this been pointed out to you?

Is it too hard to understand that if you have a downward trend line
correlated to a single constant you have obvious growing evidence of
causality. The less spanking the better behavior.

I've never seen him, for instance, respond to the Embry Street

Entry
study with anything but the usual blind hysteria neurotic responses

of
all his pro spanking buddies, his phony declarations to neutrality
notwithstanding.

I have! I have asked Chris when he mentioned this study to post the
details of this study so we can learn from it. HE REFUSED!!! I

wonder
why. I am now asking you. Can you post the relevant information of
this study so we can all take a look at it? Can you tell us how many
kids were studied? What the methodology is? What confounding

factors
were controlled for? Come on, Kane. Show us who the real "phony"

is?
:-)


I invited you before to contact professor Embry. He is available at
Dr. Dennis D. Embry
P.O. PAXIS Institute, 31475, Tucson, AZ 85751
520-299-6770
520-299-6822


I am not challenging his study YOU are. You tell him his study is not
adequate for your purposes.

And all "positive discipline" really is is just teaching to the

needs
of the child, and her actual capacities at developmental level.

The devil is in the details.


That's right and until you can show us the details, beyond, "It's
history" aren't you bit embarrassed to be making such demands?

I am a pragmatic person,


Bull****. You are an emotional blind man from your childhood
experience of shame from being whipped by your parents.

show me how
your theory work in real life situations.


You will have to come here and accompany to treatment centers I've
worked at. I await your arrival.

We have a large population
of kids in juvenile halls.


Yes, though juvenile crime is somewhat down these days and has been
dropping the rising tide of parenting methods that do no rely on CP as
a threat.

Let's try your "positivie discipline" there
first and see how it go.


About half the mentally ill teens I worked with were adjudicated, that
is assigned to treatment by the court in lieu of encarceration. I not
only got to "see how it go" I made it go myself. Punitive methods of
any kind showed that they were next to useless with hardcore teens and
mentally ill teens.

As more and more of the staff adopted my methods (other practitioners
were of course knowledgable so the methods were spreading everywhere
even as I was demonstrating them) the rate of success with moving
children back into their homes and our of encarceration with lower
ricidivism rates it was enough to convince us that no punishment
methods worked, and as you say below, were we were CP was not allowed.

However I'll tell you how the stupid such as you managed to do CP
anyway and get away with it.

BTW, corporal punishments are not allowed in
juvenile halls! ;-)


R R R R ... very funny. Pain can be applied, blindman, by many means
outside the usual definition of CP. Being made to wait inordinately to
go to the bathroom. Refusing to allow one to visit with parents.
Forcing to stand or sit in painful uncomfortable positions (and no,
I'm not giving a laundry list with pigs such as you reading my post)
for long periods of time.

THOSE are allowed.

Then there is that infamous "safety holds" issue. Watch some of the
cop shows on TV. You'll see demonstrations of how much pain can be
applied without striking.

In my case what instituted a major change in the agency I worked with
was my refusal to teach holding techniques, especially those that took
the client to the floor, and after a month of rangling with the board
of directors I won the argument. Immediately behaviors improved.

Doan seems to think that because those that spank also use SOME
rational means of teaching their children then spanking somehow is

a
positive factor in learning. Talk about Cargo Cult Mentallity.

I want to use the same measurements that anti-spanking zealotS like
Straus used!


Then, asshole. DO IT. who's stopping you?

Funding might be a bit hard to come by. There is very little for the
social sciences that can be directed to and funded that address nice
nice issues. Monies come to study harm.

You know that, I know that, and I know that you know, so your
disengenuous crap of asking for what cannot be produced because it
generally is NEEDED RESEARCH in the eyes of the public or the funding
agency officers is an escape hatch when YOU are asked to prove your
contention.

If the reduction antisocial behaviors is a benefit than
Straus et al (1997) showed that spanking less than once a week is a
benefit!
The cargo-cult mentality is not subjecting the non-cp
alternatives to the same statistical scrutiny.


No, it is not. What IS cargo cult mentality is claiming the NO
spanking is less effective then a little spanking.

The only reason children turn out as well as they do (and I notice
more than a few don't) is that humans are so resiliant and can

survive
a lot of trauma. I don't consider that parenting, of course; for

the
child to just survive.

The problem with your "reasoning" is that few of the non-cp cultures
"survived"! Can you you name a non-cp culture? ;-)


Yep. Several. The Senoi, SE Asian culture. The exist peacefully in a
sea of brutality among people that DO use punishment. Not only don't
they but they have custom of reviewing dreams each morning to see if
they will influence the days decisions. The children's dreams are as
important to the process as the adults.

I understand they haven't had a murder or suicide in over a hundred
years.

Now it's your turn. Provide me with a culture that SPANKS and punishes
that is peaceful by nature, has low rates of violent crime and murder,
and low child abuse rates.

There's a good boy.

And for the edification of those with more reading comprehension and
in the spirit of educational responsibility for the ignorant I offer
this interesting history of child rearing that helps explain some of
the compulsive slavish support of violence on children.

Some of that wonderful, "but parents have spanked their children for
centuries and it worked" bull****.

http://www.nopunish.net/PWP.pdf



Doan


{-]
  #3  
Old December 2nd 03, 01:31 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:59:10 -0800, Doan wrote:

And I why wonder what kind of parents can't tell the difference

between
spanking and beating!!! ;-)


Those that are unable to define it exactly to the point for THEIR
particular child when it changes from spanking to abuse...a beating.

No, oh Doofus one, all too often spanking already as beating with a
special name to excuse the brutatily, ignorance, and viciousness of
the parent.

And this marks, I think, post number three where I have recently
challenged you to define spanking vs beating so that one can be
distinguished from the other.

I believe I did many months ago as well with similar results..you
ignoring the question.

Diversions of the "if you don't know I'm not going to tell you"
variety, and deflecting the question with questions no longer are
standing you in good stead.

You obviously desparate and thrashing about with all your old
bull****.

And you know that it's you that is the Cargo Cult Mentality dimwit.

Come on. Doan. Should be simple for you to give us a definition or
better, come up with a study that clearly defines.

It is a very important issue now that spanking and it's abusive nature
are becoming more and more the subject of state scrutiny.

Besides, Doan, you have a kindly heart I know, and after all, it's for
the children.


Doan


{-]
  #4  
Old December 2nd 03, 04:13 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 05:28:03 -0600, "Donna Metler"
wrote:


"ChrisScaife" wrote in message
...
How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal

society
way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern
principles of human society.


I don't know of animals that beat their young.
Only degenerate humans could be that base.
;-)

Mama cats swat kittens on the nose for misbehavior, along with a

hiss.

Whose "children" then grow up to be compulsive torturers and
indiscriminate killers.

Sows routinely eat their young when streesed or from having a dietary
imbalance. Yet pigs are supposed to be very bright animals.

Apes and chimpanzees routinely rape their immature young.

Bringing up animals when discussing human behavior is irrelevant. We
have, though I rarely find any evidence here in these ngs, greater
intelligence, hence a greater range of choices than animals.

Kane
  #5  
Old December 2nd 03, 08:26 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:37:07 -0800, Doan wrote:


On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, ChrisScaife wrote:

How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal

society
way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern
principles of human society.


I don't know of animals that beat their young.
Only degenerate humans could be that base.
;-)

I saw the same argument used against abortion! Do you know of any

animal
that put their youngs in diaper??? ;-)


I see you have been going anywhere but to my question in response to
your defense of spanking and OUR confusion about spanking being
beating.

YOU haven't answered the simple question, "when does a spanking become
a beating."

What is the point of passing over from one to the other.

And none of that usual slime of yours like "if you don't know I'm not
going to tell you," or "anti spankers, etc."

Come on Doan, let's have it. You can't defend that their is a
difference between spanking and beating unless you can make a
definative arguement for what one is and not the other.

Of course you do know that even the legal definitions tend to be
somewhat less than clear, most especially on the questions of
psychological harm.

How low must the intensity be for spanking to not cause psychological
harm?

Doan


Choking are you?

Kane
  #6  
Old December 2nd 03, 09:15 PM
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On 1 Dec 2003, Kane wrote:

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:03:45 -0800, Doan wrote:


On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:03:50 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan wrote:

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are

essentially
the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that

parents
see.

Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the

alternatives
to
same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.

Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
were studied.

Doan's only argument, of course, will be asking you to provide
citations and data from peer reviewed studies that support:

lecturing;
scolding; *other* methods not working.

Wrong! I am asking for NON-CP alternatives, any non-cp alternative!


And when offered you lie.

LOL! And when you openned your mouth you lied. :-)

If spanking is as bad as you and the anti-spanking zealotS claimed,

why
is it so hard to find an alternative that stood the same statistical
scrutiny???


Because what works does not have to studied. It is far too obvious.
The observations of child behavioralists for the past century has show
repeated the how punishment, and most especially CP is a dead end.

So who need science! ;-)

He has used the infamous logical fallacy for years here (to the

point
he has bored his opponents to the point of ignoring him) of
"slanting," that is picking only the evidence that supports his
argument (the declaration by Straus) and ignoring all mass of other
evidence that buries him.

Which are????


Read below the next comment.

You meant like Straus et al (1997) in which the "no-spank"
group turned out to be a group that were spanked???


And then you've gone on, taking his honesty, and lying, and cited that
this SPANKED group in fact showed worse behaviors. You are a liar,
Doan, which people are tired of humoring.

LOL! You are speaking for the "people"?

"We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood

that our
no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that

this is
the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for

children in
the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of

children whose
parents spank, but do so only infrequently."

Are you so blind? ;-)


Not in the least. Are you? In an obviosly punitive parent group, where
ALL actually spanked, as Strauss found, the LEAST SPANKED HAD THE BEST
BEHAVIOR.

Are you so stupid or you are just too lazy to read the study? ;-)

How many times has this been pointed out to you?

How many times do you have to lie? :-)

Is it too hard to understand that if you have a downward trend line
correlated to a single constant you have obvious growing evidence of
causality. The less spanking the better behavior.

Are you so stupid??? Correlation is not causation! It is not even
evidence of a temporal order! Read the studies and learn to respond
rationally, Kane. ;-)

I've never seen him, for instance, respond to the Embry Street

Entry
study with anything but the usual blind hysteria neurotic responses

of
all his pro spanking buddies, his phony declarations to neutrality
notwithstanding.

I have! I have asked Chris when he mentioned this study to post the
details of this study so we can learn from it. HE REFUSED!!! I

wonder
why. I am now asking you. Can you post the relevant information of
this study so we can all take a look at it? Can you tell us how many
kids were studied? What the methodology is? What confounding

factors
were controlled for? Come on, Kane. Show us who the real "phony"

is?
:-)


I invited you before to contact professor Embry. He is available at
Dr. Dennis D. Embry
P.O. PAXIS Institute, 31475, Tucson, AZ 85751
520-299-6770
520-299-6822


I am not challenging his study YOU are. You tell him his study is not
adequate for your purposes.

What a cop out! Just as I expected, you haven't read the study and can't
respond. Chris Dunga pulled the same trick years ago. He would tell
people to go to the library instead. He now knows better and avoided
me at every chance! You are a few years late and a bunch of brain-cells
short! ;-) Do you really wanted me to respond to the Embry study or not?
At least you are consistent - consistently stupid that is! :-)

And all "positive discipline" really is is just teaching to the

needs
of the child, and her actual capacities at developmental level.

The devil is in the details.


That's right and until you can show us the details, beyond, "It's
history" aren't you bit embarrassed to be making such demands?

Right, Kane. ;-) How aweful of me to be making demands. I should
just accept it base on faith, right Kane???

I am a pragmatic person,


Bull****. You are an emotional blind man from your childhood
experience of shame from being whipped by your parents.

LOL! And your mouth is spewing "bull****"! ;-0

show me how
your theory work in real life situations.


You will have to come here and accompany to treatment centers I've
worked at. I await your arrival.

Good. Give me an address and contact number. Better yet, why not
publish your results?

We have a large population
of kids in juvenile halls.


Yes, though juvenile crime is somewhat down these days and has been
dropping the rising tide of parenting methods that do no rely on CP as
a threat.

Are you so stupid as to make such claim? Show me a graph of the
juvenile crime rate from 1960 on, Kane. Try this, Kane:
http://www.fbi.gov/Cius_97/97crime/97crime5.pdf
"The violent crime arresst rate for the total juvenile population
show an increase of 143 percent from 1967 to 1996. Though the
juvenile male violent crime rate expanded by 124 percent from 1967
to 1996, the juvenile female arrest rate is nearly triple that
figure, 345 percent."

Let's try your "positivie discipline" there
first and see how it go.


About half the mentally ill teens I worked with were adjudicated, that
is assigned to treatment by the court in lieu of encarceration. I not
only got to "see how it go" I made it go myself. Punitive methods of
any kind showed that they were next to useless with hardcore teens and
mentally ill teens.

As more and more of the staff adopted my methods (other practitioners
were of course knowledgable so the methods were spreading everywhere
even as I was demonstrating them) the rate of success with moving
children back into their homes and our of encarceration with lower
ricidivism rates it was enough to convince us that no punishment
methods worked, and as you say below, were we were CP was not allowed.

LOL! You are not puffering, are you? What is the recidivism rate?

However I'll tell you how the stupid such as you managed to do CP
anyway and get away with it.

Yup! 98% percent of college freshmen and 95% of professional. But
you don't want that, right? ;-)

BTW, corporal punishments are not allowed in
juvenile halls! ;-)


R R R R ... very funny. Pain can be applied, blindman, by many means
outside the usual definition of CP. Being made to wait inordinately to
go to the bathroom. Refusing to allow one to visit with parents.
Forcing to stand or sit in painful uncomfortable positions (and no,
I'm not giving a laundry list with pigs such as you reading my post)
for long periods of time.

LOL!

THOSE are allowed.

Really? And you didn't protest???? ;-)

Then there is that infamous "safety holds" issue. Watch some of the
cop shows on TV. You'll see demonstrations of how much pain can be
applied without striking.

In my case what instituted a major change in the agency I worked with
was my refusal to teach holding techniques, especially those that took
the client to the floor, and after a month of rangling with the board
of directors I won the argument. Immediately behaviors improved.

WOW! They should show that on 20/20! :-) Again, publish it, Kane.
What is the recidivism rate before and after?

Doan seems to think that because those that spank also use SOME
rational means of teaching their children then spanking somehow is

a
positive factor in learning. Talk about Cargo Cult Mentallity.

I want to use the same measurements that anti-spanking zealotS like
Straus used!


Then, asshole. DO IT. who's stopping you?

LOL! How did my "asshole" get to your mouth? ;-)

Funding might be a bit hard to come by. There is very little for the
social sciences that can be directed to and funded that address nice
nice issues. Monies come to study harm.

You know that, I know that, and I know that you know, so your
disengenuous crap of asking for what cannot be produced because it
generally is NEEDED RESEARCH in the eyes of the public or the funding
agency officers is an escape hatch when YOU are asked to prove your
contention.

Funny, Straus
If the reduction antisocial behaviors is a benefit than
Straus et al (1997) showed that spanking less than once a week is a
benefit!
The cargo-cult mentality is not subjecting the non-cp
alternatives to the same statistical scrutiny.


No, it is not. What IS cargo cult mentality is claiming the NO
spanking is less effective then a little spanking.

The only reason children turn out as well as they do (and I notice
more than a few don't) is that humans are so resiliant and can

survive
a lot of trauma. I don't consider that parenting, of course; for

the
child to just survive.

The problem with your "reasoning" is that few of the non-cp cultures
"survived"! Can you you name a non-cp culture? ;-)


Yep. Several. The Senoi, SE Asian culture. The exist peacefully in a
sea of brutality among people that DO use punishment. Not only don't
they but they have custom of reviewing dreams each morning to see if
they will influence the days decisions. The children's dreams are as
important to the process as the adults.

I understand they haven't had a murder or suicide in over a hundred
years.

"There are very few Senoi left, and those that are, don't share their
dreams, or deny that they ever did. But, who can blame them, when you
look at what happenned to them the last time they told their secret?"

and
"Although in 'The Dreamkeepers: Saving the Senoi', the author has taken
liberties witht the small amount of information available on the tribe
and their customs, we encourage you to explore more on the subject and
make your own decisions."

Look like you believe in dreams, Kane. ;-)

Now it's your turn. Provide me with a culture that SPANKS and punishes
that is peaceful by nature, has low rates of violent crime and murder,
and low child abuse rates.

There's a good boy.

Try to look at Singapore, Kane. :-)

And for the edification of those with more reading comprehension and
in the spirit of educational responsibility for the ignorant I offer
this interesting history of child rearing that helps explain some of
the compulsive slavish support of violence on children.

Some of that wonderful, "but parents have spanked their children for
centuries and it worked" bull****.


http://www.nopunish.net/PWP.pdf

Yup! Who needs science when you can just stop using your brain and
believe! ;-)

Doan



Doan


{-]


  #7  
Old December 2nd 03, 10:20 PM
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...



In article , Kane wrote:

I see you have been going anywhere but to my question in response to
your defense of spanking and OUR confusion about spanking being
beating.


spanking is a subset of beating.

Actually, they are both subsets of hitting. But a subset is not the
equivalence of the whole set! Just as oranges, lemons and grapefruits
are subsets of citrus.

You can beat someone with a stick, a metal chain, a hammer, or an open
palm. Beating children with an open palm is spanking.

And immunizing children is to inject them with germs???? Cutting children
nails is to cut off parts of their bodies????

Spanking is violence directed at children with the purpose to
intimidate them into compliance.


And I thought I can have a rational discourse! What next? Abortion
is murder??? ;-)

Doan


  #8  
Old December 3rd 03, 06:16 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:20:03 -0800, Doan wrote:



In article , Kane

wrote:

I see you have been going anywhere but to my question in response

to
your defense of spanking and OUR confusion about spanking being
beating.


spanking is a subset of beating.

Actually, they are both subsets of hitting. But a subset is not the
equivalence of the whole set! Just as oranges, lemons and

grapefruits
are subsets of citrus.

You can beat someone with a stick, a metal chain, a hammer, or an

open
palm. Beating children with an open palm is spanking.

And immunizing children is to inject them with germs???? Cutting

children
nails is to cut off parts of their bodies????

Spanking is violence directed at children with the purpose to
intimidate them into compliance.


And I thought I can have a rational discourse! What next? Abortion
is murder??? ;-)


Hey, Doan, let me help you out here. I guess you haven't noticed my
flurry of recent posts asking you to tell us the cutoff point for
spanking, when it goes into beating.

I know you are busy formulating the intensely scientific and logical
reponses you just did in this post, but you could really flatten our
debating opponents and all us anti-spanking zealots if you'd just come
up with the answer to what you say we can't tell the
difference...spanking vs beating.

Help us understand, Sensei.

Do you need more time? {;-]}


Doan


Kane
  #9  
Old December 3rd 03, 06:21 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kids should work...

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:45:06 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, ChrisScaife wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, ChrisScaife wrote:

How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal

society
way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern
principles of human society.

I don't know of animals that beat their young.
Only degenerate humans could be that base.
;-)

I saw the same argument used against abortion! Do you know of any

animal
that put their youngs in diaper??? ;-)


That is because animals are not able to do that,
but they are able to injure their offspring.
They choose not to.

Actually, it depends on what kind of animals we are talking about;

some do
eat their youngs. You are right that most animals are very

protective of
their youngs. It is ironic then to think that humans are difference

and
as parents, we don't know how to take care of our youngs.


Until you look at our contemporaries and our ancestors, who both
routinely raped their young, killed them at their pleasure, and beat
and worked them to death from tiem to time....or is this view of yours
protecting, encouraging, and apologizing for parents who us CP in the
same vein...."this is parenting, by Doan the Duplicitious."

If you've been
listen to the anti-spanking zealotS,


I have, more intensely.

we have been doing it wrong since
the beginning of time!


I've always thought those flatearthers were right and instead of
telephones, and now computers, we should still be hollering from
mountain tops to send messages.

Hell on graphic images though.


As for abortion... I would rather not start on that one right now.

Chris

It's your choice! :-)


Brilliant!

Well, compared to your gems above. {;-]}


Doan


Kane
  #10  
Old December 3rd 03, 06:48 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
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Default Kids should work...

On 3 Dec 2003 04:02:25 GMT, Ignoramus29143
wrote:

In article , Kane

wrote:
where is that pdf?

http://www.nopunish.net/PWP.pdf


thanks.

There are only two possible incidences that a child would be
oppositional and inconsiderate given his developmental level.

The first is when he has been given poor information by the world
around but more often by his caregiver. You see, a child acts

exactly,
barring my next caveat, as nature intended and is always precisely

on
target developmentally. A patient loving parent knows this an

parents
accordingly with information, exploration support, and above all,
kindness.

In the only other instance that a child would be oppositional and
inconsiderate given his developmental level, she would likely be
dysfuctional mentally or physcially and unable to perform at
developmental level.


How about the possibility that he wants something and thinks that he
can get it at the expense of others.


That fits my description of the two states of being. He is either
physiologically dysfunctional in a way that compromises learning and
judgement (autistic children come most easily to mind as a clear
example), or he is psychologically dysfunctional either because the
situation is new to him, or he has poor information to allow for
approriate learning and the psychologically appropriate development to
occur on schedule.

A punishment does not have to be physical.


If you buy into the idea that a child is doing "wrong" when they are
doing a behavior you do not approve or and do not with them to do and
you think you can make them do a wanted behavior, even if only to
stop, and punishment is your choice, ask why you chose it?

And what might work better. There are NO non-punitive parenting
tactics that work less well than spanking. Spanking mainly just fast,
and distracts a child from the unwanted activity, but, as is evidenced
time and again, the child STILL has the urge to do what he was trying
to do before he was distracted.

They then grow up with, at the very least, feelings of free floating
anxiety about themselves (since we are always trying to find out how
to do new thing, or old things better...unless of course it is spanked
out of us).

But children, like adults, respond to incentives and there is nothing
wrong, ni my ignorant opinion, with constructive a good model
incentive system.


One of the extraordinary things that happened to me as I homeschooled
my children was that they wanted to learn faster than I could deliver
the goods. Worked me to a frazzle, a joyful one of course.

The became so accustomed to me as their coach that in time for days
and days they would just forge on ahead, but when something new came
up or and old thing wanted to be done in a new way, the had the
feeling of safety that allowed them to try it...and they needed me
even less.

My daughter, by age 11 was more mature than most adults, yet she could
still play, and was joyfilled person. Still is 30 years later. And a
fulltime learner...accounting right now.

It is doubly hard to deal with if one moves to a punishment model,

bot
for the child, and for the caregiver. Problems with worsen, at the
expense of healing, and outside of possibly gaining some compliance
through fear, the side effects can be threatening to the child and
later society. Prisons bear this out. There is a great deal of

mental
illness and psychologically poor developmental progress among

inmates.

I would not make such broad statements as I see no firm basis in
evidence for them.


I've worked in the prison system. It's what I saw and what penologists
report. Prison psychological testing and observation shows extremely
retared social skill, right down to the inability to cooperatively
play (or work) with others typical of a three year old when they are
tired.

I'm not making broad statements. Do some reading.

In either case, why would you punish at all? What IS it you wish

the
child to learn, say when she hits a playmate, or destroys something
you care about, or is noise in a place you wish her to be quiet, or

if
she keeps dropping her food on the floor?


That regardless of how much some things are wanted, doing them has
unpleasant consequences. It is a good lesson in life.


Of course. Why do YOU have to be one delivering the unpleasant
consequences? Can't you figure out how to build that safely into the
environment?

Just pick up the food, trash it, and don't replace it. Which is a mild
punishment model, or...............

Figure out what the learning exercise is the child is
performing...that IS what child behavior is about, and a great deal of
adult behavior. We become, way past being conscious of it, superb
drivers by practice practice practice.

Often that is all the child is doing.

I'll write your next question for you and answer it.

Courtesy quotes:
"What in the world has dropping food on the floor got to do with
learning anything?"

When a early childhood development specialist just hired by the school
district moved in down the road from me ask me that in 1973 or 74,
being the bright introsupective intellectually advance character I was
(R R R R) I piped up with "Social skills...she trying to get me to do
things for her, training me" with a broad slaphappy grin on my face,
I'm sure.

The patient man, a part time college instructor set some boundaries
and restated the question differently... Do not think about food in
the usual way, nor the highchair, but of their physical characterists
and their interaction with the eviroment they are in.

I thought he was out of his mind...but...in time, with his patience, I
got it. The objects..food, had mass and weight. I dropped they would
fall. The highchair had height so one could view the falling object
longer and observe it's behavior in the physical universe...

When I got it my response was an incredulous "Noooo...gravity
experiements?"

He responded by pointing out other things I knew about child learning
behaviors just by simple observation....they repeat things they wish
to study and learn...we even help them with rhymes and songs and
patticake mantras.

My child was dropping things to study gravity, and he also would push
a chair to the wall and climb up and switch the light on and off
endlessly, and poor water back and forth and back and forth and
b..well, you get the picture.

So then, I had to ask myself, are all these behaviors that bother me
BAD behaviors or are they learning behaviors.

i


Best. Kane
 




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